Religions > Atheism > Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Rune Børsjø" |
| Date: |
04 Dec 2004 03:14:46 PM |
| Object: |
Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article924678.ece
"Muslims in Norway were organizing a torchlit parade through downtown
Oslo this weekend, to decry violence and terrorism and distance
themselves from Islamic fundamentalism. Top Norwegian political
leaders, including the prime minister, were joining in.
March organizers were hoping for a big turnout, and welcomed the
participation of non-Muslims as well. The leaders of Norway's major
political parties and top government leaders said they would join the
march and several were invited to speak during Saturday's event.
A key group of local Muslim religious leaders said Friday they were
encouraging all Muslims to participate. The more liberal among them
already have protested violence, terror and killings in the name of
religion."
<snip>
"The Islamic Council spokesman who stunned many of his fellow Muslims,
Zahid Mukhtar, was in London this week and won't be marching. "I'm
glad the march is being arranged," he insisted. "We must show that we
can and will behave in a proper manner."
So...
Liberal and moderate muslims showed. How many? A HANDFUL! 2-300 people
showed up, of which 100 were norwegian parliamentary politicians
including the government cabinet, a hundred or so journalist, ONE
imam, and a HANDFUL of muslims! Newspapers estimated between 20-40.
Conclusion: Muslim moderate myth busted once again. The majority of
muslims support violence and terrorism in the name of islam.
In an impromptu demonstration last year many hundreds of muslims
protested in front of the parliamentary building when reknowned
palestinian terrorist Sheik Yasin was killed in an israeli missile
strike. When a young black man was killed last year ago by a neo-nazi,
8% of Oslo's population protested.
Apparently the life of kaffirs (heathens) is not worth the flesh they
are made of.
I've long maintained than Islam is the new Nazism. Anyone who actually
lives with the impact of islam in their lives disagree?
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
06 Dec 2004 09:30:58 AM |
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In article <l694r0h1pjh1utq4dh38a791u7s5g88mko@4ax.com>,
buggeroffm@te.com says...
I've long maintained than Islam is the new Nazism. Anyone who actually
lives with the impact of islam in their lives disagree?
I call it fundo-fascism or "fascimentalism" if you will. Many
fundamentalists of non-islam stripe are no better than the muslim
fanatic breeds. In fact, christian militias have behaved in every bit
as depraved a fashion as folks like bin laden and al quaeda. The real
war is between authoritarianism and liberty (i.e liberalism). Those who
hate liberals are authoritarians and are really waging a not so stealthy
campaign against liberty in general. Some of them even claim to stand
for "freedom", but belie their claims with a raft of censorship and
theocratic mandates and alleged "religious morality" which they
unilaterally attempt to impose upon the rest of us. Yes, some muslims
have gained a bit more attention for their violent tactics in recent
years. But christian millennialists almost brought us to the brink of
global, nuclear annihilation, due to their intemperate brinksmanship
with the "godless commies". Today, if anyone is cut out of the nazi
mold it is so-called "neo-conservatives", especially of the fanatic
christian persuasion.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
05 Dec 2004 09:48:06 AM |
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In our last episode <l694r0h1pjh1utq4dh38a791u7s5g88mko@4ax.com>, Rune
Børsjø lept out of the bushes shouting:
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article924678.ece
"Muslims in Norway were organizing a torchlit parade through downtown Oslo
this weekend, to decry violence and terrorism and distance themselves from
Islamic fundamentalism. Top Norwegian political leaders, including the
prime minister, were joining in.
March organizers were hoping for a big turnout, and welcomed the
participation of non-Muslims as well. The leaders of Norway's major
political parties and top government leaders said they would join the
march and several were invited to speak during Saturday's event.
A key group of local Muslim religious leaders said Friday they were
encouraging all Muslims to participate. The more liberal among them
already have protested violence, terror and killings in the name of
religion."
<snip>
"The Islamic Council spokesman who stunned many of his fellow Muslims,
Zahid Mukhtar, was in London this week and won't be marching. "I'm glad
the march is being arranged," he insisted. "We must show that we can and
will behave in a proper manner."
So...
Liberal and moderate muslims showed. How many? A HANDFUL! 2-300 people
showed up, of which 100 were norwegian parliamentary politicians including
the government cabinet, a hundred or so journalist, ONE imam, and a
HANDFUL of muslims! Newspapers estimated between 20-40.
Conclusion: Muslim moderate myth busted once again. The majority of
muslims support violence and terrorism in the name of islam.
In an impromptu demonstration last year many hundreds of muslims protested
in front of the parliamentary building when reknowned palestinian
terrorist Sheik Yasin was killed in an israeli missile strike. When a
young black man was killed last year ago by a neo-nazi, 8% of Oslo's
population protested.
Apparently the life of kaffirs (heathens) is not worth the flesh they are
made of.
I've long maintained than Islam is the new Nazism. Anyone who actually
lives with the impact of islam in their lives disagree?
Not to defend the religion (nor any of the "big three," I despise them
pretty much equally) but there are many reasons a protest can fail.
On the *other hand, the Arab communities and nations *do need to wake up
to the reality that some radical whack jobs in their midst are determined
to push this to an out and out conflict with the whole of the West. And
I'm sorry but collectively, we, the West, can utterly *destroy the Arab
world.
And, frankly, if it gets pushed to "us or them," well, I'm for us...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
05 Dec 2004 10:04:02 AM |
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Le Sun, 05 Dec 2004 09:48:06 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo a écrit :
On the *other hand, the Arab communities and nations *do need to wake up
to the reality that some radical whack jobs in their midst are determined
to push this to an out and out conflict with the whole of the West. And
I'm sorry but collectively, we, the West, can utterly *destroy the Arab
world.
Arrafat condemned the 9/11 attacks quite explicitly.
And, frankly, if it gets pushed to "us or them," well, I'm for us...
"Us vs. them" is the oldest and most efficient manipulative tool in the
demagogue's arsenal. You have been pwn3d by Karl.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
05 Dec 2004 10:09:25 AM |
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Divin Marquis <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote in
news:pan.2004.12.05.16.04.02.618215@127.0.0.1:
Le Sun, 05 Dec 2004 09:48:06 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo a écrit :
On the *other hand, the Arab communities and nations *do need to wake
up to the reality that some radical whack jobs in their midst are
determined to push this to an out and out conflict with the whole of
the West. And I'm sorry but collectively, we, the West, can utterly
*destroy the Arab world.
Arrafat condemned the 9/11 attacks quite explicitly.
And if you believe anything Arafat ever said, I have a bridge I can sell
you.
And, frankly, if it gets pushed to "us or them," well, I'm for us...
"Us vs. them" is the oldest and most efficient manipulative tool in
the demagogue's arsenal. You have been pwn3d by Karl.
Demonizing a figure like "Karl" is at least as old and just as
effective.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Save Your Dixie Cups, The South Will Rise Again!
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
06 Dec 2004 07:50:01 PM |
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Le Sun, 05 Dec 2004 16:09:25 +0000, Fred Stone a écrit :
Arrafat condemned the 9/11 attacks quite explicitly.
And if you believe anything Arafat ever said, I have a bridge I can sell
you.
I didn't believe anything.
I just saw it: he condemened the 9/11 attacks.
Did he mean it? I don't know. I don't even care. It's not the point.
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| User: "Dietrich" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
05 Dec 2004 01:00:44 PM |
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Divin Marquis <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.12.05.16.04.02.618215@127.0.0.1...
Le Sun, 05 Dec 2004 09:48:06 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo a écrit :
On the *other hand, the Arab communities and nations *do need to wake up
to the reality that some radical whack jobs in their midst are
determined
to push this to an out and out conflict with the whole of the West. And
I'm sorry but collectively, we, the West, can utterly *destroy the Arab
world.
Arrafat condemned the 9/11 attacks quite explicitly.
And, frankly, if it gets pushed to "us or them," well, I'm for us...
"Us vs. them" is the oldest and most efficient manipulative tool in the
demagogue's arsenal. You have been pwn3d by Karl.
As a non-Muslim, I am officially a "them" to the Muslim "us" (which to me is
them).
In this context, they started and perpetuate it.
Regards,
An infidel/unbeliever/kafir.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
05 Dec 2004 11:01:56 AM |
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In our last episode <pan.2004.12.05.16.04.02.618215@127.0.0.1>, Divin
Marquis lept out of the bushes shouting:
Le Sun, 05 Dec 2004 09:48:06 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo a écrit :
On the *other hand, the Arab communities and nations *do need to wake up
to the reality that some radical whack jobs in their midst are
determined to push this to an out and out conflict with the whole of the
West. And I'm sorry but collectively, we, the West, can utterly *destroy
the Arab world.
Arrafat condemned the 9/11 attacks quite explicitly.
And, frankly, if it gets pushed to "us or them," well, I'm for us...
"Us vs. them" is the oldest and most efficient manipulative tool in the
demagogue's arsenal. You have been pwn3d by Karl.
You obviously don't know me if you can say that.
There's a reality to this that has to be dealt with. It cannot be wished
away. Extremists on *both sides want a grand conflict between "good" and
"evil" and insanely believe their respective invisible pixies are on their
side and will give them victory. Most of the rest of us are being swept
along. Unwillingly in a lot of cases but here we are and *now what?
Have you *seen what's going on in the Netherlands? Islamic extremists have
***** the DUTCH. Can you *find a more tolerant bunch of people than
the Dutch? When you get to the point you've ***** the Dutch, you
don't have many friends left.
There is a point at which those very old and very deep impulses that are
rooted in our evolution *will be triggered. We humans, if we come to
believe our basic survival is threatened, do not react in a calm, rational
manner.
We kill.
You think the US went nuts after 9/11? Think about what would happen if
some nutcase "Islamist" snuck a nuke into a US city...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
05 Dec 2004 12:03:38 PM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in
news:1LednbKJDNfAoy7cRVn-1g@megapath.net:
In our last episode <pan.2004.12.05.16.04.02.618215@127.0.0.1>, Divin
Marquis lept out of the bushes shouting:
Le Sun, 05 Dec 2004 09:48:06 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo a écrit :
On the *other hand, the Arab communities and nations *do need to
wake up to the reality that some radical whack jobs in their midst
are determined to push this to an out and out conflict with the
whole of the West. And I'm sorry but collectively, we, the West, can
utterly *destroy the Arab world.
Arrafat condemned the 9/11 attacks quite explicitly.
And, frankly, if it gets pushed to "us or them," well, I'm for us...
"Us vs. them" is the oldest and most efficient manipulative tool in
the demagogue's arsenal. You have been pwn3d by Karl.
You obviously don't know me if you can say that.
There's a reality to this that has to be dealt with. It cannot be
wished away. Extremists on *both sides want a grand conflict between
"good" and "evil" and insanely believe their respective invisible
pixies are on their side and will give them victory. Most of the rest
of us are being swept along. Unwillingly in a lot of cases but here we
are and *now what?
Have you *seen what's going on in the Netherlands? Islamic extremists
have ***** the DUTCH. Can you *find a more tolerant bunch of
people than the Dutch? When you get to the point you've ***** the
Dutch, you don't have many friends left.
There is a point at which those very old and very deep impulses that
are rooted in our evolution *will be triggered. We humans, if we come
to believe our basic survival is threatened, do not react in a calm,
rational manner.
We kill.
You think the US went nuts after 9/11? Think about what would happen
if some nutcase "Islamist" snuck a nuke into a US city...
Mecca would not be a viable destination for pilgrims. Allah would have
to find a new home.
--
Enkidu
"Yee-Ha" is not a foreign policy.
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| User: "Roger Paine" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
05 Dec 2004 12:31:22 PM |
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Enkidu wrote:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in
news:1LednbKJDNfAoy7cRVn-1g@megapath.net:
You think the US went nuts after 9/11? Think about what would happen
if some nutcase "Islamist" snuck a nuke into a US city...
Mecca would not be a viable destination for pilgrims. Allah would have
to find a new home.
I think people underestimate how easy it is to make a dirty "nuke" (as
opposed to triggering a chain reaction). I suspect the attack did not yet
happen because Islamists want to make it a serious blow to the West, and
not just something that will only infuriate the population. They might be
planning a simulataneous attack on all major US/UK cities. When we find
out, it might be too late.
The govenment is too chickenshit to call a spade a spade, and I hope they
know what they are doing. But if it were up to me, Islamists would get the
same treatment as Aum Shinrikyo cult members, because the only difference
between them is size.
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| User: "Rune Børsjø" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
05 Dec 2004 02:20:21 PM |
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On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 11:01:56 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
There's a reality to this that has to be dealt with. It cannot be wished
away. Extremists on *both sides want a grand conflict between "good" and
"evil" and insanely believe their respective invisible pixies are on their
Christians bad. Muslims far, far, *far*, worse.
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| User: "Rune Børsjø" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
05 Dec 2004 02:23:54 PM |
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On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:04:02 +0100, Divin Marquis
<postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote:
"Us vs. them" is the oldest and most efficient manipulative tool in the
demagogue's arsenal.
Like Mark says, this brewing conflict cannot simply be 'wished away'.
It's not merely a conflict between 'us and them'. It's a conflict
between islam and the rest of the world.
Islamic fundamentalism IS the new nazism in our century.
Unfortunately, it has hundreds of millions of followers. The rest of
the world, meanwhile, has grown more peaceful, and is reluctant to
strike back in the same manner. Ultimately, it may be our too-tolerant
humanist principles that are our undoing.
I am no longer a proponent of 'humanism at any cost'. I'm much more
pragmatic. No more turning the other cheek. Islamic fundamentalism
must be challenged.
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
05 Dec 2004 04:00:59 PM |
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I am no longer a proponent of 'humanism at any cost'. I'm much more
pragmatic. No more turning the other cheek. Islamic fundamentalism
must be challenged.
ALL forms of religious fundamentalism must be challenged, regardless of the
denomination.
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Department of Applied Rattan Use
"Those who have loved God most have loved men least." -- Colonel Robert Green
Ingersoll, 1881
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| User: "Rune Børsjø" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
06 Dec 2004 12:48:04 AM |
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On 05 Dec 2004 22:00:59 GMT, forlornh@aol.compost (Lord Calvert)
wrote:
ALL forms of religious fundamentalism must be challenged, regardless of the
denomination.
Of course. But I vote we start with the most dangerous.
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
06 Dec 2004 09:56:49 AM |
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ALL forms of religious fundamentalism must be challenged, regardless of the
denomination.
Of course. But I vote we start with the most dangerous.
That will vary depending on where you are. In the United States, Christian
fundamentalism is far more dangerous to our national fabric that Muslim
fundamentalism is. They've already caused one civil war and they're seeking to
cause another.
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Department of Applied Rattan Use
"Those who have loved God most have loved men least." -- Colonel Robert Green
Ingersoll, 1881
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
08 Dec 2004 06:30:35 PM |
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In our last episode <k408r0df3nbunkdq281mm7prgvnda70uff@4ax.com>, Rune
Børsjø lept out of the bushes shouting:
On 05 Dec 2004 22:00:59 GMT, forlornh@aol.compost (Lord Calvert) wrote:
ALL forms of religious fundamentalism must be challenged, regardless of
the denomination.
Of course. But I vote we start with the most dangerous.
That's us.
We have, at last count, over 20,000 nuclear warheads...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
08 Dec 2004 08:02:38 PM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote in
news:_PydnWqRzJdnBircRVn-tw@megapath.net:
In our last episode <k408r0df3nbunkdq281mm7prgvnda70uff@4ax.com>, Rune
Børsjø lept out of the bushes shouting:
On 05 Dec 2004 22:00:59 GMT, forlornh@aol.compost (Lord Calvert)
wrote:
ALL forms of religious fundamentalism must be challenged, regardless
of the denomination.
Of course. But I vote we start with the most dangerous.
That's us.
We have, at last count, over 20,000 nuclear warheads...
That doesn't prove that we're the most dangerous.
Dangerous to whom, anyway?
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Save Your Dixie Cups, The South Will Rise Again!
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
09 Dec 2004 01:13:31 PM |
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Le Thu, 09 Dec 2004 02:02:38 +0000, Fred Stone a écrit :
That doesn't prove that we're the most dangerous. Dangerous to whom,
anyway?
To anyone that stand in the way of oil.
Or banana fields, to go a little further back in time.
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| User: "Rune Børsjø" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
08 Dec 2004 09:52:49 PM |
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On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 18:30:35 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
Of course. But I vote we start with the most dangerous.
That's us.
We have, at last count, over 20,000 nuclear warheads...
I'm not afraid of Dubyah with his 20,000. Or Putin with his 10,000.
I'm afraid of the terrorist that has 1.
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
06 Dec 2004 07:46:07 PM |
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Le Mon, 06 Dec 2004 07:48:04 +0100, Rune Børsjø a écrit :
Of course. But I vote we start with the most dangerous.
Start with the US, then. Plenty of fundies in command, and thousand times
more WMDs than any other fundies.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
08 Dec 2004 06:28:19 PM |
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In our last episode <lcr6r0p4kc4cgr1cqfruchc6u4j1h6qpjv@4ax.com>, Rune
Børsjø lept out of the bushes shouting:
On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:04:02 +0100, Divin Marquis <postmaster@127.0.0.1>
wrote:
"Us vs. them" is the oldest and most efficient manipulative tool in the
demagogue's arsenal.
Like Mark says, this brewing conflict cannot simply be 'wished away'. It's
not merely a conflict between 'us and them'. It's a conflict between islam
and the rest of the world.
Islamic fundamentalism IS the new nazism in our century. Unfortunately, it
has hundreds of millions of followers. The rest of the world, meanwhile,
has grown more peaceful, and is reluctant to strike back in the same
manner. Ultimately, it may be our too-tolerant humanist principles that
are our undoing.
I am no longer a proponent of 'humanism at any cost'. I'm much more
pragmatic. No more turning the other cheek. Islamic fundamentalism must be
challenged.
Hundreds of millions of fundamentalists? I don't know. Politicians right
now--across the West--are enjoying exaggerating the problem to get power.
There is also that the West (yes, all of us) has been dicking around the
Middle East for decades to ensure "stability" in world oil supplies. We
brought a big part of what's happening now on ourselves.
When people do not have a voice, they often turn to violence. That's just
reality. Much of what people are calling "radical Islam" are groups trying
to overthrow local, oppressive governments.
I mean, look at what happened with Iran. The US overthrew a democratically
elected government largely because our oil companies were ***** that
Iran nationalized its own oil industry. Then for decades we backed the
Shah. The place became the perfect place for radical whack jobs to exploit
the discontent of the population and here we are now with an Islamic state
staring us in the face. If we'd left things the hell alone, it could have
turned out *radically different. But we didn't.
But how big is the actual "blow up the West" group? Well, millions of
Muslims are not doing anything to anybody. And the actual number of deaths
by terrorism remains actually pretty small (US deaths by terrorism,
worldwide, over a decade including 9/11, is still less than four months of
deaths on our highways).
Not that a fairly small number of radicals can't cause serious problems.
They can. But unless we want *more radicals, we better be careful. Such as
we (the US) are managing to turn pretty much the entire population of Iraq
against us right now...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
06 Dec 2004 07:45:23 PM |
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Le Sun, 05 Dec 2004 21:23:54 +0100, Rune Børsjø a écrit :
Like Mark says, this brewing conflict cannot simply be 'wished away'. It's
not merely a conflict between 'us and them'. It's a conflict between islam
and the rest of the world.
I beg to differ. Religious extremists, whether they're from the US or from
Saudi Arabia are MY enemies.
Islamic fundamentalism IS the new nazism in our century. Unfortunately,
it has hundreds of millions of followers. The rest of the world,
meanwhile, has grown more peaceful, and is reluctant to strike back in
the same manner. Ultimately, it may be our too-tolerant humanist
principles that are our undoing.
"Our too-tolerant humanism"? What are you talking about? Ever heard Rev.
Falwell's tolerance? Not only does OBL sound more humane, he also happens
to sound much saner!
I am no longer a proponent of 'humanism at any cost'. I'm much more
pragmatic. No more turning the other cheek. Islamic fundamentalism must
be challenged.
Fundamentalism must be challenged. The Iraq invasion is the biggest
recruiting tool for both Islamic & USian fundies.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
08 Dec 2004 06:29:40 PM |
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In our last episode <pan.2004.12.07.01.45.23.751807@127.0.0.1>, Divin
Marquis lept out of the bushes shouting:
I beg to differ. Religious extremists, whether they're from the US or from
Saudi Arabia are MY enemies.
And the only difference between ours and theirs is that ours still believe
they can seize power *without violence.
The "Islamists" started out much like the US religious right. Running for
office, getting out the vote, etc. When they failed to gain power
peacefully, that's when they turned in the direction that led to 9/11...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "kuff Isaac Adams" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islamcompletely flops |
08 Dec 2004 06:50:41 PM |
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Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
In our last episode <pan.2004.12.07.01.45.23.751807@127.0.0.1>, Divin
Marquis lept out of the bushes shouting:
I beg to differ. Religious extremists, whether they're from the US or from
Saudi Arabia are MY enemies.
And the only difference between ours and theirs is that ours still believe
they can seize power *without violence.
The "Islamists" started out much like the US religious right. Running for
office, getting out the vote, etc. When they failed to gain power
peacefully, that's when they turned in the direction that led to 9/11...
You mean Qa Qa first tried to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan using
the ballot box? I don't think so. For one thing there wasn't the
money in the US budget to try that.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
08 Dec 2004 07:16:21 PM |
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In our last episode <41b79ec8$1_2@127.0.0.1>, kuff (Isaac Adams) lept out
of the bushes shouting:
You mean Qa Qa first tried to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan using
the ballot box?
No, I don't mean that.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "kuff Isaac Adams" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
08 Dec 2004 07:20:50 PM |
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Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
In our last episode <41b79ec8$1_2@127.0.0.1>, kuff (Isaac Adams) lept
out
of the bushes shouting:
You mean Qa Qa first tried to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan
using
the ballot box?
No, I don't mean that.
In your posting:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.religion.islam/msg/b1834a7667ae6fac
you stated "When they failed to gain power peacefully, that's when they
turned in the direction that led to 9/11..."
Most everbody fingers Qa Qa for 911 so what did you mean?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
08 Dec 2004 09:31:30 PM |
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In our last episode
<1102555249.993838.38330@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, kuff (Isaac Adams)
lept out of the bushes shouting:
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
In our last episode <41b79ec8$1_2@127.0.0.1>, kuff (Isaac Adams) lept
out
of the bushes shouting:
You mean Qa Qa first tried to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan
using
the ballot box?
No, I don't mean that.
In your posting:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.religion.islam/msg/b1834a7667ae6fac
you stated "When they failed to gain power peacefully, that's when they
turned in the direction that led to 9/11..."
Most everbody fingers Qa Qa for 911 so what did you mean?
The movement that is commonly referred to as "Islamist" began *years
before the Afghani conflict and 9/11. They've been around for some time
now. And they did not *start in Afghanistan, they tried co-opting the
nationalist resistance there.
Such as the the Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 in Egypt.
It was a "moral reform" organization that moved gradually into politics
until in the '40s it was a rapidly growing political organization that
became something of a rival to the "powers that be." Who *started the
violence depends on who you believe but government oppression of the
Brotherhood and their attempts at assassination start showing up in the
late '40s and continue back and forth for some time.
Interestingly enough, Sayyid Qutb, one of the main "thinkers" of the
movement didn't seem a particularly violent sort until after being
arrested and tortured by Egyptian authorities. Then one of his big
contributions was a rather "false consciousness" concept. An idea that
Muslims could be "not real Muslims" because they were corrupted by Western
liberalism (the same liberalism that is the boogeyman of our
neo-conservatives and religious right at that). And the idea seemed to
have spread that in order to accomplish the great awakening they seemed to
believe was going to happen, you could kill the "not real Muslims."
Though they started with political assassinations believing Muslim
politicians (who were quite often oppressive bastards) were the source of
the problem and killing them would bring about the overthrow of the
corrupt regimes. Except that didn't happen.
And I mean that there's an interesting progression as they could not
achieve their goals peacefully, they moved increasingly into violence.
They *do have the fatal flaw of believing (as fundamentalists do) in their
own infallibility. Failures had to be explained away.
Then failure to spark some general, Arab uprising against corrupt regimes
was blamed on, you guessed it, us. 9/11 may actually have been a last gasp
of the movement to start an uprising by a big, dramatic attack on the
Great Satan. Actually it bought them most of their movement being bombed
out of existence in Afghanistan.
But almost all the names you hear today come out of that one group.
Such as Ayman al-Zawahiri, sometimes called "Al Qaeda's chief strategist.
And Muhammad Qutb, brother of Sayyid, had a student named Osama bin Laden.
This started long before Afghanistan.
(Speaking of which, the man who *appears to have issued the first fatwa
against the Soviets in Afghanistan, which lead to the involvement of the
movement in the events there, was Shaikh Azzam who lectured at a
university where bin Laden was a student. Azzam had also been involved in
the Brotherhood and picked up a lot of Qutb's ideas. Particularly a belief
in an inevitable "clash of civilizations" between the Islamic world and
non-Islamic world which, so help me, you hear coming out of a number of
*our people though, obviously, with the difference on who's going to "win"
the conflict. I've seen Azzam referred to as the "Godfather of Jihad" and
named as one of the primaries in developing the more militant version of
the movement we're running into lately.)
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
09 Dec 2004 01:08:25 PM |
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Le Wed, 08 Dec 2004 21:31:30 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo a écrit :
The movement that is commonly referred to as "Islamist" began *years
before the Afghani conflict and 9/11. They've been around for some time
now. And they did not *start in Afghanistan, they tried co-opting the
nationalist resistance there.
Began where/when?
Do you refer to the Iranian fundies, which gained power thanks to
hostility towards the American-backed Shah? Did you know that there was a
democratically elected government in Iran in 1958, which got kicked out
with help from the CIA as soon as it started nationalizing the oil
industry?
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
09 Dec 2004 01:31:17 PM |
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Divin Marquis <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote in
news:pan.2004.12.09.19.08.25.766488@127.0.0.1:
Le Wed, 08 Dec 2004 21:31:30 -0600, Mark K. Bilbo a écrit :
The movement that is commonly referred to as "Islamist" began *years
before the Afghani conflict and 9/11. They've been around for some
time now. And they did not *start in Afghanistan, they tried
co-opting the nationalist resistance there.
Began where/when?
Do you refer to the Iranian fundies, which gained power thanks to
hostility towards the American-backed Shah? Did you know that there
was a democratically elected government in Iran in 1958, which got
kicked out with help from the CIA as soon as it started nationalizing
the oil industry?
Yeah, it was "democratically elected" in the same way as the recent
"democratic election" in the Ukraine.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Save Your Dixie Cups, The South Will Rise Again!
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
09 Dec 2004 07:35:13 PM |
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Le Thu, 09 Dec 2004 19:31:17 +0000, Fred Stone a écrit :
Began where/when?
Do you refer to the Iranian fundies, which gained power thanks to
hostility towards the American-backed Shah? Did you know that there was
a democratically elected government in Iran in 1958, which got kicked
out with help from the CIA as soon as it started nationalizing the oil
industry?
Yeah, it was "democratically elected" in the same way as the recent
"democratic election" in the Ukraine.
Oddly enough, it's the first time I hear this. All historians seem to
agree that it was democratically elected. You got a scoop? New info?
Or did you just poop something out of your *****, as usual?
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Demonstration against violence and terrorism in the name of islam completely flops |
10 Dec 2004 09:17:03 AM |
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Divin Marquis <postmaster@127.0.0.1> wrote in
news:pan.2004.12.10.01.35.13.855597@127.0.0.1:
Le Thu, 09 Dec 2004 19:31:17 +0000, Fred Stone a écrit :
Began where/when?
Do you refer to the Iranian fundies, which gained power thanks to
hostility towards the American-backed Shah? Did you know that there
was a democratically elected government in Iran in 1958, which got
kicked out with help from the CIA as soon as it started
nationalizing the oil industry?
Yeah, it was "democratically elected" in the same way as the recent
"democratic election" in the Ukraine.
Oddly enough, it's the first time I hear this. All historians seem to
agree that it was democratically elected. You got a scoop? New info?
Only the old info that the "winner" of that election was a Stalinist,
supported by the USSR.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Save Your Dixie Cups, The South Will Rise Again!
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