Religions > Atheism > Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion)
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass" |
| Date: |
20 Apr 2005 10:19:26 AM |
| Object: |
Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
Who do you think was more likely to survive, the guys who (correctly)
bailed out or the guys who decided to fight to the bitter end in 1945?
"Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even
though in principle punishable by death"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI
On 20 Apr 2005 07:54:01 -0700, "IKnowMoreThanYou"
<iknow_morethanyou@hotmail.com> wrote:
Pope risked death in WWII desertion
By David McHugh THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
BERLIN- In May 1945, thousands of German prisoners of war trudged
down the highway toward the Bavarian town of Bad Aibling. Among them
- tired but grateful to be alive - was 18-year-old Joseph
Ratzinger, who days before had risked death by deserting the German
army.
"In three days of marching, we hiked down the empty highway, in a
column that gradually became endless," the new pope recalled years
later in his memoirs.
"The American soldiers photographed us, the young ones, most of all,
in order to take home souvenirs of the defeated army and its desolate
personnel."
Like his predecessor, John Paul II, Ratzinger was marked by the
terror-filled years of World War II. Karol Wojtyla was forced to work
in a quarry and narrowly escaped arrest in a mass roundup of young men
by the Germans in Krakow; Ratzinger's experiences were also
harrowing.
In particular, his decision to leave his army unit just after he turned
military age could have cost Ratzinger his life.
At the time, he knew the dreaded SS units would shoot a deserter on the
spot - or hang him from a lamppost as a warning to others. He
recalled his terror when he was stopped by other soldiers.
"Thank God they were ones who had had enough of war and did not want
to become murderers," he wrote in his book, "Aus meinem Leben,"
published in English as "Milestones: Memoirs 1927-1977."
"They had to find a reason to let me go. I had my arm in a sling
because of an injury."
"Comrade, you are wounded," they told him. "Go on."
Soon he was home with his father, Josef, and his mother, Maria.
For years, he and his family had watched the Nazis strengthen their
grip on Germany. His father, a policeman and a convinced anti-Nazi,
moved the family at least once after clashing with local followers of
the party. A local teacher, he remembered, became an ardent follower of
the new movement, and tried to institute a maypole ritual as more
fitting of Germanic ways than conservative Catholicism.
In 1941, Ratzinger, 14, and his brother, Georg, were enrolled in the
Hitler Youth when it became mandatory for all boys. Soon after, he
writes in his book, "The Salt of the Earth," he was let out because
of his intention to study for the priesthood.
In 1943, like many teenage boys, he was drafted as a helper for an
anti-aircraft brigade, which defended a BMW plant outside Munich.
Later, he dug anti-tank trenches. When he turned 18, on April 16, 1945,
he was put through basic training, alongside men in their 30s and 40s,
drafted as the Third Reich went through its death agony. He was
stationed near his hometown - he doesn't say where - but did not
see combat with the approaching U.S. troops.
After he returned home, the Americans finally arrived - and set up
their headquarters in his parents' 18th-century farmhouse.
They identified him as a German soldier, made him put on his uniform
and marched him off to join other prisoners kept in a nearby meadow.
Taken to a camp near Ulm, he wound up living outside for several weeks,
surrounded by barbed wire.
He was finally released June 19 and hitched a ride on a milk truck back
to Traunstein.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1559 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.
|
|
| User: "AGGreen" |
|
| Title: Re: Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
20 Apr 2005 04:29:07 PM |
|
|
***The Orthodox connection is?
"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in message
news:qesc61lllbniv9egehki44tsnf9h43gsts@4ax.com...
Who do you think was more likely to survive, the guys who (correctly)
bailed out or the guys who decided to fight to the bitter end in 1945?
"Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even
though in principle punishable by death"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI
On 20 Apr 2005 07:54:01 -0700, "IKnowMoreThanYou"
<iknow_morethanyou@hotmail.com> wrote:
Pope risked death in WWII desertion
By David McHugh THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
BERLIN- In May 1945, thousands of German prisoners of war trudged
down the highway toward the Bavarian town of Bad Aibling. Among them
- tired but grateful to be alive - was 18-year-old Joseph
Ratzinger, who days before had risked death by deserting the German
army.
"In three days of marching, we hiked down the empty highway, in a
column that gradually became endless," the new pope recalled years
later in his memoirs.
"The American soldiers photographed us, the young ones, most of all,
in order to take home souvenirs of the defeated army and its desolate
personnel."
Like his predecessor, John Paul II, Ratzinger was marked by the
terror-filled years of World War II. Karol Wojtyla was forced to work
in a quarry and narrowly escaped arrest in a mass roundup of young men
by the Germans in Krakow; Ratzinger's experiences were also
harrowing.
In particular, his decision to leave his army unit just after he turned
military age could have cost Ratzinger his life.
At the time, he knew the dreaded SS units would shoot a deserter on the
spot - or hang him from a lamppost as a warning to others. He
recalled his terror when he was stopped by other soldiers.
"Thank God they were ones who had had enough of war and did not want
to become murderers," he wrote in his book, "Aus meinem Leben,"
published in English as "Milestones: Memoirs 1927-1977."
"They had to find a reason to let me go. I had my arm in a sling
because of an injury."
"Comrade, you are wounded," they told him. "Go on."
Soon he was home with his father, Josef, and his mother, Maria.
For years, he and his family had watched the Nazis strengthen their
grip on Germany. His father, a policeman and a convinced anti-Nazi,
moved the family at least once after clashing with local followers of
the party. A local teacher, he remembered, became an ardent follower of
the new movement, and tried to institute a maypole ritual as more
fitting of Germanic ways than conservative Catholicism.
In 1941, Ratzinger, 14, and his brother, Georg, were enrolled in the
Hitler Youth when it became mandatory for all boys. Soon after, he
writes in his book, "The Salt of the Earth," he was let out because
of his intention to study for the priesthood.
In 1943, like many teenage boys, he was drafted as a helper for an
anti-aircraft brigade, which defended a BMW plant outside Munich.
Later, he dug anti-tank trenches. When he turned 18, on April 16, 1945,
he was put through basic training, alongside men in their 30s and 40s,
drafted as the Third Reich went through its death agony. He was
stationed near his hometown - he doesn't say where - but did not
see combat with the approaching U.S. troops.
After he returned home, the Americans finally arrived - and set up
their headquarters in his parents' 18th-century farmhouse.
They identified him as a German soldier, made him put on his uniform
and marched him off to join other prisoners kept in a nearby meadow.
Taken to a camp near Ulm, he wound up living outside for several weeks,
surrounded by barbed wire.
He was finally released June 19 and hitched a ride on a milk truck back
to Traunstein.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka aka
Yang's little poltregeist *****)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and
counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1559 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.
|
|
|
| User: "Susan Cohen" |
|
| Title: Re: Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
20 Apr 2005 11:25:16 PM |
|
|
"AGGreen" <AGG@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:d46hko0pku@enews2.newsguy.com...
***The Orthodox connection is?
The same as the Jewish one.
Susan
"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in message
news:qesc61lllbniv9egehki44tsnf9h43gsts@4ax.com...
Who do you think was more likely to survive, the guys who (correctly)
bailed out or the guys who decided to fight to the bitter end in 1945?
"Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even
though in principle punishable by death"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI
On 20 Apr 2005 07:54:01 -0700, "IKnowMoreThanYou"
<iknow_morethanyou@hotmail.com> wrote:
Pope risked death in WWII desertion
By David McHugh THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
BERLIN- In May 1945, thousands of German prisoners of war trudged
down the highway toward the Bavarian town of Bad Aibling. Among them
- tired but grateful to be alive - was 18-year-old Joseph
Ratzinger, who days before had risked death by deserting the German
army.
"In three days of marching, we hiked down the empty highway, in a
column that gradually became endless," the new pope recalled years
later in his memoirs.
"The American soldiers photographed us, the young ones, most of all,
in order to take home souvenirs of the defeated army and its desolate
personnel."
Like his predecessor, John Paul II, Ratzinger was marked by the
terror-filled years of World War II. Karol Wojtyla was forced to work
in a quarry and narrowly escaped arrest in a mass roundup of young men
by the Germans in Krakow; Ratzinger's experiences were also
harrowing.
In particular, his decision to leave his army unit just after he turned
military age could have cost Ratzinger his life.
At the time, he knew the dreaded SS units would shoot a deserter on the
spot - or hang him from a lamppost as a warning to others. He
recalled his terror when he was stopped by other soldiers.
"Thank God they were ones who had had enough of war and did not want
to become murderers," he wrote in his book, "Aus meinem Leben,"
published in English as "Milestones: Memoirs 1927-1977."
"They had to find a reason to let me go. I had my arm in a sling
because of an injury."
"Comrade, you are wounded," they told him. "Go on."
Soon he was home with his father, Josef, and his mother, Maria.
For years, he and his family had watched the Nazis strengthen their
grip on Germany. His father, a policeman and a convinced anti-Nazi,
moved the family at least once after clashing with local followers of
the party. A local teacher, he remembered, became an ardent follower of
the new movement, and tried to institute a maypole ritual as more
fitting of Germanic ways than conservative Catholicism.
In 1941, Ratzinger, 14, and his brother, Georg, were enrolled in the
Hitler Youth when it became mandatory for all boys. Soon after, he
writes in his book, "The Salt of the Earth," he was let out because
of his intention to study for the priesthood.
In 1943, like many teenage boys, he was drafted as a helper for an
anti-aircraft brigade, which defended a BMW plant outside Munich.
Later, he dug anti-tank trenches. When he turned 18, on April 16, 1945,
he was put through basic training, alongside men in their 30s and 40s,
drafted as the Third Reich went through its death agony. He was
stationed near his hometown - he doesn't say where - but did not
see combat with the approaching U.S. troops.
After he returned home, the Americans finally arrived - and set up
their headquarters in his parents' 18th-century farmhouse.
They identified him as a German soldier, made him put on his uniform
and marched him off to join other prisoners kept in a nearby meadow.
Taken to a camp near Ulm, he wound up living outside for several weeks,
surrounded by barbed wire.
He was finally released June 19 and hitched a ride on a milk truck back
to Traunstein.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka aka
Yang's little poltregeist *****)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and
counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1559 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass" |
|
| Title: Re: Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
20 Apr 2005 10:25:58 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:29:07 -0400, "AGGreen" <AGG@nospam.net> wrote:
***The Orthodox connection is?
The same connection as it is to atheism, as in one of your christian
bretherens xposted into and I am merely taking the fight back.
"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in message
news:qesc61lllbniv9egehki44tsnf9h43gsts@4ax.com...
Who do you think was more likely to survive, the guys who (correctly)
bailed out or the guys who decided to fight to the bitter end in 1945?
"Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even
though in principle punishable by death"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI
On 20 Apr 2005 07:54:01 -0700, "IKnowMoreThanYou"
<iknow_morethanyou@hotmail.com> wrote:
Pope risked death in WWII desertion
By David McHugh THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
BERLIN- In May 1945, thousands of German prisoners of war trudged
down the highway toward the Bavarian town of Bad Aibling. Among them
- tired but grateful to be alive - was 18-year-old Joseph
Ratzinger, who days before had risked death by deserting the German
army.
"In three days of marching, we hiked down the empty highway, in a
column that gradually became endless," the new pope recalled years
later in his memoirs.
"The American soldiers photographed us, the young ones, most of all,
in order to take home souvenirs of the defeated army and its desolate
personnel."
Like his predecessor, John Paul II, Ratzinger was marked by the
terror-filled years of World War II. Karol Wojtyla was forced to work
in a quarry and narrowly escaped arrest in a mass roundup of young men
by the Germans in Krakow; Ratzinger's experiences were also
harrowing.
In particular, his decision to leave his army unit just after he turned
military age could have cost Ratzinger his life.
At the time, he knew the dreaded SS units would shoot a deserter on the
spot - or hang him from a lamppost as a warning to others. He
recalled his terror when he was stopped by other soldiers.
"Thank God they were ones who had had enough of war and did not want
to become murderers," he wrote in his book, "Aus meinem Leben,"
published in English as "Milestones: Memoirs 1927-1977."
"They had to find a reason to let me go. I had my arm in a sling
because of an injury."
"Comrade, you are wounded," they told him. "Go on."
Soon he was home with his father, Josef, and his mother, Maria.
For years, he and his family had watched the Nazis strengthen their
grip on Germany. His father, a policeman and a convinced anti-Nazi,
moved the family at least once after clashing with local followers of
the party. A local teacher, he remembered, became an ardent follower of
the new movement, and tried to institute a maypole ritual as more
fitting of Germanic ways than conservative Catholicism.
In 1941, Ratzinger, 14, and his brother, Georg, were enrolled in the
Hitler Youth when it became mandatory for all boys. Soon after, he
writes in his book, "The Salt of the Earth," he was let out because
of his intention to study for the priesthood.
In 1943, like many teenage boys, he was drafted as a helper for an
anti-aircraft brigade, which defended a BMW plant outside Munich.
Later, he dug anti-tank trenches. When he turned 18, on April 16, 1945,
he was put through basic training, alongside men in their 30s and 40s,
drafted as the Third Reich went through its death agony. He was
stationed near his hometown - he doesn't say where - but did not
see combat with the approaching U.S. troops.
After he returned home, the Americans finally arrived - and set up
their headquarters in his parents' 18th-century farmhouse.
They identified him as a German soldier, made him put on his uniform
and marched him off to join other prisoners kept in a nearby meadow.
Taken to a camp near Ulm, he wound up living outside for several weeks,
surrounded by barbed wire.
He was finally released June 19 and hitched a ride on a milk truck back
to Traunstein.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka aka
Yang's little poltregeist *****)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and
counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1559 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1562 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "William McHale" |
|
| Title: Re: Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
20 Apr 2005 01:24:23 PM |
|
|
In alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*awolbush*/mail.com> wrote:
Who do you think was more likely to survive, the guys who (correctly)
bailed out or the guys who decided to fight to the bitter end in 1945?
"Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even
though in principle punishable by death"
This is true, but on the flip side, it is a good way to seperate those who were
fighting because they had to and those who were true believers in the Nazi
cause. The latter fought to the very end, the former deserted, surrendered,
etc.
--
Bill
.
|
|
|
| User: "quibbler" |
|
| Title: Re: Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
20 Apr 2005 02:12:11 PM |
|
|
In article <r7x9e.6$lG.5889@news.abs.net>, says...
In alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*awolbush*/mail.com> wrote:
Who do you think was more likely to survive, the guys who (correctly)
bailed out or the guys who decided to fight to the bitter end in 1945?
"Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even
though in principle punishable by death"
This is true, but on the flip side, it is a good way to seperate those who were
fighting because they had to and those who were true believers in the Nazi
cause. The latter fought to the very end,
Actually no, it wasn't that cut-and-dry. Many high level Nazis started
making plans to hide out in south america and a variety of other
locations. Most people who fought to the bitter end did so because they
didn't have the initiative or wherewithal to see the writing on the wall
and do something about it. Thus, Nazinger's abandonment of his post
would be in keeping with the actions of many committed Nazis who hoped
to escape their crimes.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
|
|
|
| User: "William McHale" |
|
| Title: Re: Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
21 Apr 2005 07:53:38 AM |
|
|
In alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
In article <r7x9e.6$lG.5889@news.abs.net>, says...
In alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*awolbush*/mail.com> wrote:
Who do you think was more likely to survive, the guys who (correctly)
bailed out or the guys who decided to fight to the bitter end in 1945?
"Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even
though in principle punishable by death"
This is true, but on the flip side, it is a good way to seperate those who were
fighting because they had to and those who were true believers in the Nazi
cause. The latter fought to the very end,
Actually no, it wasn't that cut-and-dry. Many high level Nazis started
making plans to hide out in south america and a variety of other
locations. Most people who fought to the bitter end did so because they
didn't have the initiative or wherewithal to see the writing on the wall
and do something about it. Thus, Nazinger's abandonment of his post
would be in keeping with the actions of many committed Nazis who hoped
to escape their crimes.
The key words in your above post were "high level Nazis". Certainly regardless
of Pope Benedict's association with the party, he was not a high level Nazi.
Amongst the lower ranks, particularly in the Waffen SS, the soldiers fought
to the bitter end, and the most likely to fight to the death were the
soldiers drawn from the Hitler Youth. Further the Nazi leaders who were most
likely to flee were the ones who were most likely to be members of the party
because of the power it gave them (far from all of the leaders were true
believers).
In any case, in all of this discussion, I have yet to see anyone show that
He was actually a member of the Nazi party. Yes he was a member of the Hitler
Youth, but then again most boys were (Even if it was not strictly speaking
obligatory, I imagine there were social penalties that many young people
would not be prepared to pay), yes he was drafted into the army, but neither
required being a member of the Nazi party.
I don't belive any of this speaks of a youth filled with the courage that
some showed during the war (including John Paul II who put his life in danger
by studying for the Priesthood in Poland), but it does not paint a picture of
an evil man. Weak boys can become strong men.
--
Bill
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "IKnowMoreThanYou" |
|
| Title: Re: Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
20 Apr 2005 03:01:34 PM |
|
|
quibbler wrote:
In article <r7x9e.6$lG.5889@news.abs.net>,
says...
In alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking
AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*awolbush*/mail.com> wrote:
Who do you think was more likely to survive, the guys who
(correctly)
bailed out or the guys who decided to fight to the bitter end in
1945?
"Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even
though in principle punishable by death"
This is true, but on the flip side, it is a good way to seperate
those who were
fighting because they had to and those who were true believers in
the Nazi
cause. The latter fought to the very end,
Actually no, it wasn't that cut-and-dry. Many high level Nazis
started
making plans to hide out in south america and a variety of other
locations. Most people who fought to the bitter end did so because
they
didn't have the initiative or wherewithal to see the writing on the
wall
and do something about it. Thus, Nazinger's abandonment of his post
would be in keeping with the actions of many committed Nazis who
hoped
to escape their crimes.
While he walked right into American forces using his parents' home as a
headquarters? How did he hope to escape anything going to a prison
camp for German soldiers?
Please knock some sense into us.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
|
|
|
| User: "quibbler" |
|
| Title: Re: Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
20 Apr 2005 09:21:47 PM |
|
|
In article <1114025963.662908.185590@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
iknow_morethanyou@hotmail.com says...
quibbler wrote:
In article <r7x9e.6$lG.5889@news.abs.net>,
says...
In alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking
AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*awolbush*/mail.com> wrote:
Who do you think was more likely to survive, the guys who
(correctly)
bailed out or the guys who decided to fight to the bitter end in
1945?
"Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even
though in principle punishable by death"
This is true, but on the flip side, it is a good way to seperate
those who were
fighting because they had to and those who were true believers in
the Nazi
cause. The latter fought to the very end,
Actually no, it wasn't that cut-and-dry. Many high level Nazis
started
making plans to hide out in south america and a variety of other
locations. Most people who fought to the bitter end did so because
they
didn't have the initiative or wherewithal to see the writing on the
wall
and do something about it. Thus, Nazinger's abandonment of his post
would be in keeping with the actions of many committed Nazis who
hoped
to escape their crimes.
While he walked right into American forces using his parents' home as a
headquarters?
He wasn't dressed as a soldier. The soldiers only discovered later that
he was in the Wehrmacht. Ratfink wanted to turn himself in as quickly
as possible because that was the safest alternative. He didn't want to
be captured by fellow Germans and tried for desertion. So, yet again,
his action sounds far from noble or self-effacing.
How did he hope to escape anything going to a prison
camp for German soldiers?
He hoped to escape summary execution by his own forces or destruction in
battle by allied/soviet forces.
Please knock some sense into us.
It apparently wouldn't do you much good because you don't have much of a
brain to hold it. It just goes in one of your ears and out the other.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
|
|
|
| User: "IKnowMoreThanYou" |
|
| Title: Re: Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
21 Apr 2005 08:51:52 AM |
|
|
quibbler wrote:
In article <1114025963.662908.185590@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
iknow_morethanyou@hotmail.com says...
quibbler wrote:
In article <r7x9e.6$lG.5889@news.abs.net>,
says...
In alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic "Yang, AthD (h.c),
Kicking
AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*awolbush*/mail.com> wrote:
Who do you think was more likely to survive, the guys who
(correctly)
bailed out or the guys who decided to fight to the bitter end
in
1945?
"Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war,
even
though in principle punishable by death"
This is true, but on the flip side, it is a good way to
seperate
those who were
fighting because they had to and those who were true believers
in
the Nazi
cause. The latter fought to the very end,
Actually no, it wasn't that cut-and-dry. Many high level Nazis
started
making plans to hide out in south america and a variety of other
locations. Most people who fought to the bitter end did so
because
they
didn't have the initiative or wherewithal to see the writing on
the
wall
and do something about it. Thus, Nazinger's abandonment of his
post
would be in keeping with the actions of many committed Nazis who
hoped
to escape their crimes.
While he walked right into American forces using his parents' home
as a
headquarters?
He wasn't dressed as a soldier. The soldiers only discovered later
that
he was in the Wehrmacht. Ratfink wanted to turn himself in as
quickly
as possible because that was the safest alternative. He didn't want
to
be captured by fellow Germans and tried for desertion. So, yet
again,
his action sounds far from noble or self-effacing.
How did he hope to escape anything going to a prison
camp for German soldiers?
He hoped to escape summary execution by his own forces or destruction
in
battle by allied/soviet forces.
It's amazing how such a "high level Nazi" as you put it has eluded
Isreal for so long!
Please explain why someone not wanting to be executed is a bad thing.
BTW, Why aren't you in Iraq dying to "keep me free from terrorism".
Please knock some sense into us.
It apparently wouldn't do you much good because you don't have much
of a
brain to hold it. It just goes in one of your ears and out the
other.
Of course; that's what happens when there's nothing to grasp onto.
You're in a twist because something you desperately want to be in the
article isn't there to back up your personal point of view. Get over
it.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
|
|
|
| User: "quibbler" |
|
| Title: Re: Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
21 Apr 2005 06:11:48 PM |
|
|
In article <1114091512.796473.278550@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
iknow_morethanyou@hotmail.com says...
It's amazing how such a "high level Nazi" as you put it has eluded
Isreal for so long!
Israel would probably think twice before snatching and grabbing a highly
connected Catholic Cardinal. They know what side their bread is
buttered on.
Please explain why someone not wanting to be executed is a bad thing.
What if they deserve to be executed?
BTW, Why aren't you in Iraq dying to "keep me free from terrorism".
Because I wouldn't never follow a Fuhrer, be his name Hitler or Bush.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass" |
|
| Title: Re: Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
20 Apr 2005 10:26:44 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:24:23 GMT, William McHale
<mchale@beast.toad.net> wrote:
In alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*awolbush*/mail.com> wrote:
Who do you think was more likely to survive, the guys who (correctly)
bailed out or the guys who decided to fight to the bitter end in 1945?
"Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even
though in principle punishable by death"
This is true, but on the flip side, it is a good way to seperate those who were
fighting because they had to and those who were true believers in the Nazi
cause. The latter fought to the very end, the former deserted, surrendered,
etc.
Does that mean Bush does not believe in the rightwing cause because he
skipped out on Vietnam?
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1562 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.
|
|
|
| User: "William McHale" |
|
| Title: Re: Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
21 Apr 2005 11:11:31 AM |
|
|
In alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*awolbush*/mail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:24:23 GMT, William McHale
<mchale@beast.toad.net> wrote:
In alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*awolbush*/mail.com> wrote:
Who do you think was more likely to survive, the guys who (correctly)
bailed out or the guys who decided to fight to the bitter end in 1945?
"Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even
though in principle punishable by death"
This is true, but on the flip side, it is a good way to seperate those who were
fighting because they had to and those who were true believers in the Nazi
cause. The latter fought to the very end, the former deserted, surrendered,
etc.
Does that mean Bush does not believe in the rightwing cause because he
skipped out on Vietnam?
It certainly doesn't mean he was a true believer in that cause. Vietnam of
course enjoyed support and opposition from members of both parties.
In any case, I doubt that one can judge the qualities of a man based on
actions he took 60 years ago (and we are not entirely sure what he did and
did not do and what he realistically could have done that he didn't).
--
Bill
.
|
|
|
| User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass" |
|
| Title: Re: Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
22 Apr 2005 12:09:13 AM |
|
|
On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:11:31 GMT, William McHale
<mchale@beast.toad.net> wrote:
In alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*awolbush*/mail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:24:23 GMT, William McHale
<mchale@beast.toad.net> wrote:
In alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic "Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****" <eacmole@/*awolbush*/mail.com> wrote:
Who do you think was more likely to survive, the guys who (correctly)
bailed out or the guys who decided to fight to the bitter end in 1945?
"Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even
though in principle punishable by death"
This is true, but on the flip side, it is a good way to seperate those who were
fighting because they had to and those who were true believers in the Nazi
cause. The latter fought to the very end, the former deserted, surrendered,
etc.
Does that mean Bush does not believe in the rightwing cause because he
skipped out on Vietnam?
It certainly doesn't mean he was a true believer in that cause. Vietnam of
course enjoyed support and opposition from members of both parties.
In any case, I doubt that one can judge the qualities of a man based on
actions he took 60 years ago (and we are not entirely sure what he did and
did not do and what he realistically could have done that he didn't).
Fair enough. Which is why I think it's a bit of an overeach to play up
the "courage in the face of certain death" angle
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1562 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "IKnowMoreThanYou" |
|
| Title: Re: Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
20 Apr 2005 11:17:24 AM |
|
|
Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:
Who do you think was more likely to survive, the guys who (correctly)
bailed out or the guys who decided to fight to the bitter end in
1945?
"Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even
though in principle punishable by death"
And the subtitle of the article is "Pope risked death in WWII
desertion". Isn't that what your citation says?
What's point are you trying to make?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI
On 20 Apr 2005 07:54:01 -0700, "IKnowMoreThanYou"
<iknow_morethanyou@hotmail.com> wrote:
Pope risked death in WWII desertion
By David McHugh THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
BERLIN- In May 1945, thousands of German prisoners of war trudged
down the highway toward the Bavarian town of Bad Aibling. Among them
- tired but grateful to be alive - was 18-year-old Joseph
Ratzinger, who days before had risked death by deserting the German
army.
"In three days of marching, we hiked down the empty highway, in a
column that gradually became endless," the new pope recalled years
later in his memoirs.
"The American soldiers photographed us, the young ones, most of all,
in order to take home souvenirs of the defeated army and its
desolate
personnel."
Like his predecessor, John Paul II, Ratzinger was marked by the
terror-filled years of World War II. Karol Wojtyla was forced to
work
in a quarry and narrowly escaped arrest in a mass roundup of young
men
by the Germans in Krakow; Ratzinger's experiences were also
harrowing.
In particular, his decision to leave his army unit just after he
turned
military age could have cost Ratzinger his life.
At the time, he knew the dreaded SS units would shoot a deserter on
the
spot - or hang him from a lamppost as a warning to others. He
recalled his terror when he was stopped by other soldiers.
"Thank God they were ones who had had enough of war and did not want
to become murderers," he wrote in his book, "Aus meinem Leben,"
published in English as "Milestones: Memoirs 1927-1977."
"They had to find a reason to let me go. I had my arm in a sling
because of an injury."
"Comrade, you are wounded," they told him. "Go on."
Soon he was home with his father, Josef, and his mother, Maria.
For years, he and his family had watched the Nazis strengthen their
grip on Germany. His father, a policeman and a convinced anti-Nazi,
moved the family at least once after clashing with local followers
of
the party. A local teacher, he remembered, became an ardent follower
of
the new movement, and tried to institute a maypole ritual as more
fitting of Germanic ways than conservative Catholicism.
In 1941, Ratzinger, 14, and his brother, Georg, were enrolled in the
Hitler Youth when it became mandatory for all boys. Soon after, he
writes in his book, "The Salt of the Earth," he was let out because
of his intention to study for the priesthood.
In 1943, like many teenage boys, he was drafted as a helper for an
anti-aircraft brigade, which defended a BMW plant outside Munich.
Later, he dug anti-tank trenches. When he turned 18, on April 16,
1945,
he was put through basic training, alongside men in their 30s and
40s,
drafted as the Third Reich went through its death agony. He was
stationed near his hometown - he doesn't say where - but did not
see combat with the approaching U.S. troops.
After he returned home, the Americans finally arrived - and set up
their headquarters in his parents' 18th-century farmhouse.
They identified him as a German soldier, made him put on his uniform
and marched him off to join other prisoners kept in a nearby meadow.
Taken to a camp near Ulm, he wound up living outside for several
weeks,
surrounded by barbed wire.
He was finally released June 19 and hitched a ride on a milk truck
back
to Traunstein.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka
aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and
counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1559 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and
mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.
|
|
|
| User: "quibbler" |
|
| Title: Re: Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
20 Apr 2005 02:09:20 PM |
|
|
In article <1114013844.214819.272290@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
iknow_morethanyou@hotmail.com says...
Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:
Who do you think was more likely to survive, the guys who (correctly)
bailed out or the guys who decided to fight to the bitter end in
1945?
"Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even
though in principle punishable by death"
And the subtitle of the article is "Pope risked death in WWII
desertion".
All soldiers risk death, at least in theory, in time of war. Yet, it's
funny that Nazinger was only worried about his own side. He clearly
didn't perceive too much risk of being in combat otherwise, or believed
that he could shirk this duty easily.
BTW, don't quote so much irrelevant text next time.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass" |
|
| Title: Re: Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
20 Apr 2005 11:01:27 PM |
|
|
On 20 Apr 2005 09:17:24 -0700, "IKnowMoreThanYou"
<iknow_morethanyou@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:
Who do you think was more likely to survive, the guys who (correctly)
bailed out or the guys who decided to fight to the bitter end in
1945?
"Desertion was widespread during the last weeks of the war, even
though in principle punishable by death"
And the subtitle of the article is "Pope risked death in WWII
desertion". Isn't that what your citation says?
How about "Pope risked death by the Red Army if he had stayed in the
SS"?
What's point are you trying to make?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI
On 20 Apr 2005 07:54:01 -0700, "IKnowMoreThanYou"
<iknow_morethanyou@hotmail.com> wrote:
Pope risked death in WWII desertion
By David McHugh THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
BERLIN- In May 1945, thousands of German prisoners of war trudged
down the highway toward the Bavarian town of Bad Aibling. Among them
- tired but grateful to be alive - was 18-year-old Joseph
Ratzinger, who days before had risked death by deserting the German
army.
"In three days of marching, we hiked down the empty highway, in a
column that gradually became endless," the new pope recalled years
later in his memoirs.
"The American soldiers photographed us, the young ones, most of all,
in order to take home souvenirs of the defeated army and its
desolate
personnel."
Like his predecessor, John Paul II, Ratzinger was marked by the
terror-filled years of World War II. Karol Wojtyla was forced to
work
in a quarry and narrowly escaped arrest in a mass roundup of young
men
by the Germans in Krakow; Ratzinger's experiences were also
harrowing.
In particular, his decision to leave his army unit just after he
turned
military age could have cost Ratzinger his life.
At the time, he knew the dreaded SS units would shoot a deserter on
the
spot - or hang him from a lamppost as a warning to others. He
recalled his terror when he was stopped by other soldiers.
"Thank God they were ones who had had enough of war and did not want
to become murderers," he wrote in his book, "Aus meinem Leben,"
published in English as "Milestones: Memoirs 1927-1977."
"They had to find a reason to let me go. I had my arm in a sling
because of an injury."
"Comrade, you are wounded," they told him. "Go on."
Soon he was home with his father, Josef, and his mother, Maria.
For years, he and his family had watched the Nazis strengthen their
grip on Germany. His father, a policeman and a convinced anti-Nazi,
moved the family at least once after clashing with local followers
of
the party. A local teacher, he remembered, became an ardent follower
of
the new movement, and tried to institute a maypole ritual as more
fitting of Germanic ways than conservative Catholicism.
In 1941, Ratzinger, 14, and his brother, Georg, were enrolled in the
Hitler Youth when it became mandatory for all boys. Soon after, he
writes in his book, "The Salt of the Earth," he was let out because
of his intention to study for the priesthood.
In 1943, like many teenage boys, he was drafted as a helper for an
anti-aircraft brigade, which defended a BMW plant outside Munich.
Later, he dug anti-tank trenches. When he turned 18, on April 16,
1945,
he was put through basic training, alongside men in their 30s and
40s,
drafted as the Third Reich went through its death agony. He was
stationed near his hometown - he doesn't say where - but did not
see combat with the approaching U.S. troops.
After he returned home, the Americans finally arrived - and set up
their headquarters in his parents' 18th-century farmhouse.
They identified him as a German soldier, made him put on his uniform
and marched him off to join other prisoners kept in a nearby meadow.
Taken to a camp near Ulm, he wound up living outside for several
weeks,
surrounded by barbed wire.
He was finally released June 19 and hitched a ride on a milk truck
back
to Traunstein.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka
aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and
counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1559 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and
mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec (aka aka Yang's little poltregeist *****)
The Bush 'balanced' budget: 1.6 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -1562 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.
|
|
|
| User: "Susan Cohen" |
|
| Title: Re: Desertion Widespread During End of WWII (Pope risked death in WWII desertion) |
21 Apr 2005 12:39:36 AM |
|
|
"Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting *****"
<eacmole@/*AWOLBUSH*/mail.com> wrote in message
news:ib9e61t9u4ng957gel489ts5dm33s83m9l@4ax.com...
On 20 Apr 2005 09:17:24 -0700, "IKnowMoreThanYou"
<iknow_morethanyou@hotmail.com> wrote:
And the subtitle of the article is "Pope risked death in WWII
desertion". Isn't that what your citation says?
How about "Pope risked death by the Red Army if he had stayed in the
SS"?
It is disgusting to pretend that a 17 year old boy was in the SS when he
most certainly was not.
What's point are you trying to make?
Unfortunately, the one you are making is not the one you want.
Susan
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
