| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"*nemo*" |
| Date: |
25 Apr 2004 04:54:03 AM |
| Object: |
Design question |
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before,
but it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony folks...
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.
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| User: "georgann" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 06:19:27 AM |
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"*nemo*" wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before,
but it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony folks...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
That's simple. The God of Creation is also intelligent enough to built into
creatures simple as well as complex instincts . . . such as those you
mentioned.
--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»
All your prophecy are belong to Christ!
(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
.
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| User: "Sara Brum" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 08:02:31 AM |
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"georgann" <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:BCB116FE.35384AA4%chenault@mindspring.com...
"*nemo*" wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before,
but it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony
folks...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
That's simple. The God of Creation is also intelligent enough to built
into
creatures simple as well as complex instincts . . . such as those you
mentioned.
Hands up everyone who didn't see that coming.
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
27 Apr 2004 12:14:46 PM |
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 23:02:31 +1000, "Sara Brum" <sarabrum@medulla.com>,
Message ID: <c6gctg$bt4d6$1@ID-216353.news.uni-berlin.de> wrote in
alt.atheism;
"georgann" <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:BCB116FE.35384AA4%chenault@mindspring.com...
"*nemo*" wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before,
but it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony
folks...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
That's simple. The God of Creation is also intelligent enough to built
into
creatures simple as well as complex instincts . . . such as those you
mentioned.
Hands up everyone who didn't see that coming.
Drooling idiocy, and dishonesty, from Georgann and Puke is the only
item they have in 'stock.'
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "*nemo*" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 12:40:15 PM |
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In article <BCB116FE.35384AA4%chenault@mindspring.com>,
georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote:
"*nemo*" wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before,
but it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony folks...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
That's simple. The God of Creation is also intelligent enough to built into
creatures simple as well as complex instincts . . . such as those you
mentioned.
That wasn't the question. Te question is -- why should we assume that
intelligence is required in the manufacture of complex, purpose-made
things?
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 02:31:36 PM |
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*nemo* wrote:
In article <BCB116FE.35384AA4%chenault@mindspring.com>,
georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote:
"*nemo*" wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before,
but it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony folks...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
That's simple. The God of Creation is also intelligent enough to built into
creatures simple as well as complex instincts . . . such as those you
mentioned.
That wasn't the question. Te question is -- why should we assume that
intelligence is required in the manufacture of complex, purpose-made
things?
If intelligence is not involved at all, to what, then, do we attribute
what the little buggers are able to do?
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.
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| User: "Mark Richardson" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 08:13:39 PM |
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 15:31:36 -0400, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
*nemo* wrote:
In article <BCB116FE.35384AA4%chenault@mindspring.com>,
georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote:
"*nemo*" wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before,
but it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony folks...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
That's simple. The God of Creation is also intelligent enough to built into
creatures simple as well as complex instincts . . . such as those you
mentioned.
That wasn't the question. Te question is -- why should we assume that
intelligence is required in the manufacture of complex, purpose-made
things?
If intelligence is not involved at all, to what, then, do we attribute
what the little buggers are able to do?
Evolution through natural selection.
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau
"My name is Mark I am a recovering Skeptic
(AKA Muddy Boggs, AKA Donald R. Alford AKA ...)
debater. It is 034 days since I last tried to argue
with him."
You too can quit! Take the pledge!
.
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| User: "georgann" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 08:29:20 PM |
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That's simple. The God of Creation is also intelligent enough to built into
creatures simple as well as complex instincts . . . such as those you
mentioned.
That wasn't the question. Te question is -- why should we assume that
intelligence is required in the manufacture of complex, purpose-made things?
If intelligence is not involved at all, to what, then, do we attribute what
the little buggers are able to do?
"Mark Richardson" wrote:
Evolution through natural selection.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Evidently evolution through natural selection doesn't mean what you think it
means.
--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»
All your prophecy are belong to Christ!
(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
.
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| User: "Mark Richardson" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 10:05:44 PM |
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On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 01:29:20 GMT, georgann <chenault@mindspring.com>
wrote:
That's simple. The God of Creation is also intelligent enough to built into
creatures simple as well as complex instincts . . . such as those you
mentioned.
That wasn't the question. Te question is -- why should we assume that
intelligence is required in the manufacture of complex, purpose-made things?
If intelligence is not involved at all, to what, then, do we attribute what
the little buggers are able to do?
"Mark Richardson" wrote:
Evolution through natural selection.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Evidently evolution through natural selection doesn't mean what you think it
means.
Evidently you dont think.
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau
"My name is Mark I am a recovering Skeptic
(AKA Muddy Boggs, AKA Donald R. Alford AKA ...)
debater. It is 034 days since I last tried to argue
with him."
You too can quit! Take the pledge!
.
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| User: "The Watcher" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
04 May 2004 11:20:57 AM |
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On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 03:05:44 GMT, Mark Richardson
<mark.richardson@die.spammers.die> wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 01:29:20 GMT, georgann <chenault@mindspring.com>
wrote:
That's simple. The God of Creation is also intelligent enough to built into
creatures simple as well as complex instincts . . . such as those you
mentioned.
That wasn't the question. Te question is -- why should we assume that
intelligence is required in the manufacture of complex, purpose-made things?
If intelligence is not involved at all, to what, then, do we attribute what
the little buggers are able to do?
"Mark Richardson" wrote:
Evolution through natural selection.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Evidently evolution through natural selection doesn't mean what you think it
means.
Evidently you dont think.
So who needs to think when they have an old book and its "pious pimps" to tell
them what to think? ;)
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
01 May 2004 01:58:10 PM |
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On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 03:05:44 GMT, Mark Richardson
<mark.richardson@die.spammers.die>, Message ID:
<34vo80l2n72ugja0oders819pvafpoit95@4ax.com> wrote in alt.atheism;
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 01:29:20 GMT, georgann <chenault@mindspring.com>
wrote:
That's simple. The God of Creation is also intelligent enough to built into
creatures simple as well as complex instincts . . . such as those you
mentioned.
That wasn't the question. Te question is -- why should we assume that
intelligence is required in the manufacture of complex, purpose-made things?
If intelligence is not involved at all, to what, then, do we attribute what
the little buggers are able to do?
"Mark Richardson" wrote:
Evolution through natural selection.
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Evidently evolution through natural selection doesn't mean what you think it
means.
Evidently you dont think.
No, evidentally about it. Such is spotlit.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
01 May 2004 01:57:30 PM |
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 15:31:36 -0400, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>,
Message ID: <408C1218.37F401E5@pemtel.net> wrote in alt.atheism;
*nemo* wrote:
In article <BCB116FE.35384AA4%chenault@mindspring.com>,
georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote:
"*nemo*" wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before,
but it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony folks...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
That's simple. The God of Creation is also intelligent enough to built into
creatures simple as well as complex instincts . . . such as those you
mentioned.
That wasn't the question. Te question is -- why should we assume that
intelligence is required in the manufacture of complex, purpose-made
things?
If intelligence is not involved at all, to what, then, do we attribute
what the little buggers are able to do?
Instinct, based on millenia of development and locked in.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 04:01:45 PM |
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One day in alt.atheism, Also Sprach dgillesp:
*nemo* wrote:
That wasn't the question. Te question is -- why should we assume that
intelligence is required in the manufacture of complex, purpose-made
things?
If intelligence is not involved at all, to what, then, do we attribute
what the little buggers are able to do?
Natural selection.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
______________
Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day.
Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.
--Timothy Jones
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| User: "georgann" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
05 May 2004 06:43:24 AM |
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A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a way
that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the surrounding
air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before, but
it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony folks...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
That's simple. The God of Creation is also intelligent enough to built into
creatures simple as well as complex instincts . . . such as those you
mentioned.
"*nemo*" wrote:
That wasn't the question. Te question is -- why should we assume that
intelligence is required in the manufacture of complex, purpose-made things?
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Its not an assumption to know that intelligence is required in the
manufacture of complex, purpose-made things. Its part of human development
and history. Its also what we experience every day. People design complex,
purpose-made things as regularly as their energy and enthusiasm and finances
(if needed) will permit. Nothing of purpose is designed it without some
amount of intelligence and it takes design to accomplish the tasks.
It is impeccably logical, based on this observable and habitual (not just
repeatable) habit of man, that all complex, purpose-made things are the
result of design.
To assume otherwise is folly and a peculiar denial of one's own regular
experience where design and intelligence are concerned, let alone where the
history of man is concerned. As man's (generic man) intelligence increased
so did his designs and manufacture of complex, purpose-made things.
--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»
All your prophecy are belong to Christ!
(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
05 May 2004 07:17:00 AM |
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georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote in alt.atheism
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such
a way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the surrounding
air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before, but
it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony folks...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
That's simple. The God of Creation is also intelligent enough to built into
creatures simple as well as complex instincts . . . such as those you
mentioned.
"*nemo*" wrote:
That wasn't the question. Te question is -- why should we assume that
intelligence is required in the manufacture of complex, purpose-made things?
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
Its not an assumption to know that intelligence is required in the
manufacture of complex, purpose-made things. Its part of human development
and history. Its also what we experience every day. People design complex,
purpose-made things as regularly as their energy and enthusiasm and finances
(if needed) will permit. Nothing of purpose is designed it without some
amount of intelligence and it takes design to accomplish the tasks.
It is impeccably logical, based on this observable and habitual (not just
repeatable) habit of man, that all complex, purpose-made things are the
result of design.
To assume otherwise is folly and a peculiar denial of one's own regular
experience where design and intelligence are concerned, let alone where the
history of man is concerned. As man's (generic man) intelligence increased
so did his designs and manufacture of complex, purpose-made things.
How many nature shows do you watch per week or month, georgann?
Be honest, don't lie...
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
.
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 12:48:16 PM |
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 11:19:27 GMT, georgann <chenault@mindspring.com>
wrote:
"*nemo*" wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before,
but it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony folks...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
That's simple. The God of Creation is also intelligent enough to built into
creatures simple as well as complex instincts . . . such as those you
mentioned.
Intellegent creationists say that complex instinct isn't possible.
Only intellegent beings can create complex things. According to them,
bees can't do that.
Apparently it isn't logically possible for creationists to be right.
.
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| User: "The Watcher" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
04 May 2004 11:20:56 AM |
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 11:19:27 GMT, georgann <chenault@mindspring.com> wrote:
(snip)
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
That's nice. You've been forgiven for something that happend about 2000 years
before you were born? That's might magnanimous of your god to do that "for you".
:/
BTW, have you called the Guiness Book people? If you've been alive since 33 AD I
think you'd qualify as the oldest known human.
(snip)
.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 04:39:40 PM |
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georgann wrote:
"*nemo*" wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before,
but it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony folks...
georgann (forgiven since 33 AD) wrote:
That's simple. The God of Creation is also intelligent enough to built
into creatures simple as well as complex instincts . . . such as those you
mentioned.
The real question is if there is a god at all, and if there may not be many
gods as mindless as termites that build a universe without realizing it.
Or there may be no gods at all. You make assumptions you cannot prove.
And can be disproven in fact.
Can god do the impossible, create a square circle, a four sided triangle?
--
"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun
in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to
Canada. So I chose to better myself and learn to fly airplanes."
- George W. Bush May 1984 to the Houston Chronicle
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 02:27:05 PM |
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*nemo* wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
Who know for sure? Perhaps bees and termites do possess a certain
limited kind of intelligence. Other animals apparently do.
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before,
but it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony folks...
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
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| User: "Beowulf" |
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| Title: Re: Re: Design question |
26 Apr 2004 11:26:19 AM |
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 15:27:05 -0400, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
ejaculated:
*nemo* wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
Who know for sure? Perhaps bees and termites do possess a certain
limited kind of intelligence. Other animals apparently do.
That's retarded. If you were going to ascribe intelligence to
something it would have to be to the hive as a whole. A single bee
isolated by itself can hardly manage to find its own ***** with six legs
let alone construct hexagons out of wax.
Of course, this doesn't make things any easier for the ID claim since
we now have an entity defined solely by the interaction of
unintelligent objects being intelligent (not unlike the human brain).
From whence cometh the intelligence? If intelligence is an emergent
property of the bee hive, why can it naturally emerge from other
complex interactions of unintelligent entities?
--
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"
- Benjamin Franklin
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
26 Apr 2004 12:19:33 PM |
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Beowulf wrote:
On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 15:27:05 -0400, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
ejaculated:
*nemo* wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
Who knows for sure? Perhaps bees and termites do possess a certain
limited kind of intelligence. Other animals apparently do.
That's retarded. If you were going to ascribe intelligence to
something it would have to be to the hive as a whole. A single bee
isolated by itself can hardly manage to find its own ***** with six legs
let alone construct hexagons out of wax.
How about a single human being isolated by himself totally without human
contact from birth? He could hardly manage to find his own ***** either.
[BTW, what DO you think of the rectum as a (w)hole?] My take is that
intelligence has its absolutely necessary social dimension not only in
bees, termites, apes, dolphins, etal, but in persons as well.
Denny
Of course, this doesn't make things any easier for the ID claim since
we now have an entity defined solely by the interaction of
unintelligent objects being intelligent (not unlike the human brain).
From whence cometh the intelligence? If intelligence is an emergent
property of the bee hive, why can it naturally emerge from other
complex interactions of unintelligent entities?
--
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"
- Benjamin Franklin
.
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| User: "The Watcher" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
04 May 2004 11:20:59 AM |
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 15:27:05 -0400, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net> wrote:
(snip)
Who know for sure?
We arrogant humans have a habit of thinking we know for sure, usually just
before we get shown that we don't know nearly as much as we thought we did.
Perhaps bees and termites do possess a certain
limited kind of intelligence. Other animals apparently do.
Yeah, but I'm still wondering about that naked ape that calls itself "homo
sapiens". Sapient????? Reading the Darwin Award list makes me think we were far
too generous with that label. :/
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 04:37:18 PM |
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*nemo* wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before,
but it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony folks...
Bees and termites are intelligent, but their intelligence is of a low order.
Their complex hives and mounds are the result of emergent qualities, simple
actions on part of termites, ants and bees yeild complex actions and
complex objects.
But their intelligence does not recognize their actions have a goal, or an
end other than their immediate small and limited tasks. They do not intend
to build a hive or mound. And probably don't realize that their hive is a
result of their actions.
Likewise, one could take the Universe as a similar example and posit that
there are many gods who work to create a Universe, but like termites,
a god may nor recognize the end goal or result that is achieved in part by
his or her or its activities. Gods do not even have to have a particulaly
high intelligence.
Philosopher David Hume remarked, that the argument that god
must have created the world, natural theology, as per Paley, is not an
argument, but is actually an analogy. One could imagine the analogy of
plants, a universe grows from the seeds of earlier creation, and creates
seeds for future creation, this analogy is a good as any other.
So if you make an analogy that the seeming perfection of this or that
part of the Universe supposes a god, why not many termite-like gods?
Or mindless, unintelligent agents like plants with their seeds?
Hume's main point is, do not confuse arguments and analogies.
And analogies need proving, analogies are never proof.
See Hume's "On Religion" for this and other considerations
on the nature of religion and proof.
--
"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun
in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to
Canada. So I chose to better myself and learn to fly airplanes."
- George W. Bush May 1984 to the Houston Chronicle
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "*nemo*" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 07:12:54 PM |
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In article <408c461e$0$17088$811e409b@news.mylinuxisp.com>,
wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Bees and termites are intelligent, but their intelligence is of a low order.
Their complex hives and mounds are the result of emergent qualities, simple
actions on part of termites, ants and bees yeild complex actions and
complex objects.
But their intelligence does not recognize their actions have a goal, or an
end other than their immediate small and limited tasks. They do not intend
to build a hive or mound. And probably don't realize that their hive is a
result of their actions.
Interesting answer. Thought-provoking.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
.
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 09:12:52 PM |
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In article <nemo0037-346FA5.20125325042004@news01.east.earthlink.net>,
nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net says...
In article <408c461e$0$17088$811e409b@news.mylinuxisp.com>,
wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Bees and termites are intelligent, but their intelligence is of a low order.
Their complex hives and mounds are the result of emergent qualities, simple
actions on part of termites, ants and bees yeild complex actions and
complex objects.
But their intelligence does not recognize their actions have a goal, or an
end other than their immediate small and limited tasks. They do not intend
to build a hive or mound. And probably don't realize that their hive is a
result of their actions.
Interesting answer. Thought-provoking.
Douglas Hofstadter (Godel, Escher, Bach - Pulitzer Prize 1979) makes a
point of the importance of organization by positing an intelligent ant
colony. Each ant is stupid, it's only the collective that has
intelligence. After a rain storm, not a single ant is lost, but the
organization is, and a new intelligence with a different personality
emerges. Like the human mind - each cell is stupid. Take a brain and
rearrange it, and you get a non-functioning mess. The organization is
as important or more important than the individuals.
--
Enkidu
AA# 2165
http://www.livejournal.com/users/marcrw/
"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we
go to church we're just making him madder and madder."
--Homer Simpson
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 10:17:39 PM |
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Enkidu <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote in
news:MPG.1af6100043fdb4ea9896e1@news.west.cox.net:
In article <nemo0037-346FA5.20125325042004@news01.east.earthlink.net>,
nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net says...
In article <408c461e$0$17088$811e409b@news.mylinuxisp.com>,
wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Bees and termites are intelligent, but their intelligence is of a
low order. Their complex hives and mounds are the result of
emergent qualities, simple actions on part of termites, ants and
bees yeild complex actions and complex objects.
But their intelligence does not recognize their actions have a
goal, or an end other than their immediate small and limited tasks.
They do not intend to build a hive or mound. And probably don't
realize that their hive is a result of their actions.
Interesting answer. Thought-provoking.
Douglas Hofstadter (Godel, Escher, Bach - Pulitzer Prize 1979) makes a
point of the importance of organization by positing an intelligent ant
colony. Each ant is stupid, it's only the collective that has
intelligence. After a rain storm, not a single ant is lost, but the
organization is, and a new intelligence with a different personality
emerges. Like the human mind - each cell is stupid. Take a brain and
rearrange it, and you get a non-functioning mess. The organization is
as important or more important than the individuals.
Poor Ant Hillary. You beat me to it!
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
Cthulhu for President! Why vote for a lesser evil?
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| User: "Andrew Lias" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
30 Apr 2004 03:04:36 PM |
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message news:<Xns94D6ECFE627F8fstone69@207.69.154.206>...
Enkidu <enkidu@leaddogs.org> wrote in
news:MPG.1af6100043fdb4ea9896e1@news.west.cox.net:
Douglas Hofstadter (Godel, Escher, Bach - Pulitzer Prize 1979) makes a
point of the importance of organization by positing an intelligent ant
colony. Each ant is stupid, it's only the collective that has
intelligence. After a rain storm, not a single ant is lost, but the
organization is, and a new intelligence with a different personality
emerges. Like the human mind - each cell is stupid. Take a brain and
rearrange it, and you get a non-functioning mess. The organization is
as important or more important than the individuals.
Poor Ant Hillary. You beat me to it!
It was a great story/essay. My favorite part was the fact that the
colonial entity was friends with an ant eater who acted as a kind of
brain surgeon for it.
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| User: "Mark Richardson" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 08:12:05 PM |
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 09:54:03 GMT, *nemo*
<nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net> wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before,
but it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony folks...
Or snowflakes.
Ever looked at a snowlflake under a microscope?
Those water molecules are really smart.
Mark.
--
Mark Richardson mDOTrichardsonATutasDOTeduDOTau
"My name is Mark I am a recovering Skeptic
(AKA Muddy Boggs, AKA Donald R. Alford AKA ...)
debater. It is 034 days since I last tried to argue
with him."
You too can quit! Take the pledge!
.
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| User: "The Watcher" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
04 May 2004 11:21:30 AM |
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On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 01:12:05 GMT, Mark Richardson
<mark.richardson@die.spammers.die> wrote:
On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 09:54:03 GMT, *nemo*
<nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net> wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before,
but it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony folks...
Or snowflakes.
Ever looked at a snowlflake under a microscope?
Those water molecules are really smart.
Compared to the average theist, rocks are really smart. ;)
.
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| User: "The Watcher" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
04 May 2004 11:20:55 AM |
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 09:54:03 GMT, *nemo* <nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net> wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent?
From their perspective, bees are VERY intelligent. They're much more intelligent
than most theists are. ;)
(snip)
BTW, no logic is effective when dealing with fundies. They are not restrained by
the rules of logic, so they can attack from any direction using any tactic. Yep,
they float like a bumblebee and sting like a butterfly. ;)
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 07:08:40 AM |
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 09:54:03 GMT, *nemo* <nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net> wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air. Can anyone tell us that termites are intelligent?
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before,
but it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony folks...
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Design question |
25 Apr 2004 07:10:27 AM |
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 09:54:03 GMT, *nemo* <nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net> wrote:
Often we hear the gurus of "Intelligent Design" talking about how if
something is "obviously designed for a specific purpose" then it *must*
be the work of intelligence. One thing that I've not heard in response
to that is beehives. Or termite mounds.
A beehive is a complex structure that is built by bees for a specific
purpose. Do the ID folks think that bees are intelligent? Same thing for
termites. Those buggers build huge mounds that have multiple types of
compartments, used for specific purposes. The mounds are built in such a
way that the interior is kept well-ventilated and cooler than the
surrounding air.
It's called "the shade".
And no, they're not intelligent. They are simply doing their "breed type" thing.
It's just a thought. I don't recall seeing this line of argument before,
but it seems it might be quite useful in dealing with such loony folks...
So who is the loony one?
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