| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"platothelapdog" |
| Date: |
04 Jan 2007 11:53:13 PM |
| Object: |
Determinism |
For those willing to debate this, I offer a few points. I am a novice
at best with this subject so do bare with my less then B.A. education.
Ok, I guess each of us is going to have to give our degree of
determinism; none since it does not exsist [rofl], compatilbilism where
you think free will and determinism are in fact compatible, a fatalist
whereby every event including human cognition and action is causally
determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences [ nothing is left
to chance, nothing is random or spontaneous... miraculous ] and then
sorta one inbetween.
**This is stolen from wiki "Compatibilism, most famously championed
by Hume, is a theory that suggests that free will and determinism are
in fact compatible. According to Hume, free will should not be
understood as an absolute ability to have chosen differently under
exactly the same inner and outer circumstances. Rather, it is a
hypothetical ability to have chosen differently if one had been
differently psychologically disposed by some different beliefs or
desires. That is, when one says that one could either continue to read
this page or to delete it, one doesn't really mean that both choices
are compatible with the complete state of the world right now, but
rather that if one had desired to delete it one would have, even though
as a matter of fact one actually desires to continue reading it, and
therefore that is what will actually happen"**
OK, now for my own thoughts :
I have long thought that the world and universe is deterministic. But
the underlying free will we have lies in our own brains. Indeed all the
stimulus and knowledge we retain comes from outside sources that direct
our actions in most everything, we have never yet been able to assert
the human brain learns the same under any or all circumstance. So what
I mean is that if me and 4 other people were to placed into a classroom
and given a lesson on underwater scuba diving, how then could
determinisism define how I learned the material, my thoughts ect. I
know each and every action could be broken down to say this is why I
would then later on go suba diving with my great uncle in california,
but where is in this arugment the individual brains learning and
reasoning factor in. I think there lies where are free will can be,
that and the fact "just being" we alter our own enviroment, hence we
have our own hand in the determing factors that drive us. So in the
end I would say I am as I quoted above from wiki, compatilibistic.
Anyways if you wanna touch on what I have said please do, those are my
direct thoughts and not copied and pasted from anywhere, so pick em
apart all you want and chime in with your own 2 bits.
.
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| User: "Jim07D7" |
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| Title: Re: Determinism |
05 Jan 2007 01:21:39 AM |
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"platothelapdog" <platothelapdog@yahoo.ca> said:
OK, now for my own thoughts :
I have long thought that the world and universe is deterministic. But
the underlying free will we have lies in our own brains. Indeed all the
stimulus and knowledge we retain comes from outside sources that direct
our actions in most everything, we have never yet been able to assert
the human brain learns the same under any or all circumstance. So what
I mean is that if me and 4 other people were to placed into a classroom
and given a lesson on underwater scuba diving, how then could
determinisism define how I learned the material, my thoughts ect. I
know each and every action could be broken down to say this is why I
would then later on go suba diving with my great uncle in california,
but where is in this arugment the individual brains learning and
reasoning factor in. I think there lies where are free will can be,
that and the fact "just being" we alter our own enviroment, hence we
have our own hand in the determing factors that drive us. So in the
end I would say I am as I quoted above from wiki, compatilibistic.
Anyways if you wanna touch on what I have said please do, those are my
direct thoughts and not copied and pasted from anywhere, so pick em
apart all you want and chime in with your own 2 bits.
My position: It makes no difference.
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Determinism |
05 Jan 2007 02:33:20 AM |
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On 4 Jan 2007 21:53:13 -0800, "platothelapdog"
<platothelapdog@yahoo.ca> wrote:
- Refer: <1167976392.982448.178770@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>
:
OK, now for my own thoughts :
I have long thought that the world and universe is deterministic. But
the underlying free will we have
:
Hold it right there, Charley!
"Free Will" coupled with "determinism"???
Please explain.
The rest of it is moot, if you are unable to justify that stance.
If the universe is strictly deterministic, there CANNOT be any such
thing as "free will".
--
.
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| User: "Chris Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Determinism |
05 Jan 2007 02:00:32 AM |
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platothelapdog wrote:
<snip preamble>
I have long thought that the world and universe is deterministic.
What would give you that idea? We've had over a century of quantum
mechanics, which has established to a rather high certainty that
randomness is an intrisic aspect of the universe.
But the underlying free will we have lies in our own brains.
What is this free will? Last I knew, it was simply a way for
theologians to pretend explain away the problem of evil. "Why is God
not responsible for the evil?" "Because man has free will, and he
chooses to be evil."
In a non-religious (read: relevant) context, I have no idea what you're
talking about. If you're talking about making choices, sure. Then I've
got free will, as do opossums, as do computers. If you're talking about
somehow deviating from our fleshy mechanics to make choices that would
otherwise not be made, I don't think I agree.
In any event, some clarification would be nice.
Indeed all the
stimulus and knowledge we retain comes from outside sources that direct
our actions in most everything, we have never yet been able to assert
the human brain learns the same under any or all circumstance. So what
I mean is that if me and 4 other people were to placed into a classroom
and given a lesson on underwater scuba diving,
Useless experiment. The makeup of the four people's brains is not the
same. You would have to have four brains of that are in identical
states at the time. Of course, even so, free will could not be verified
by differing end states. A quantum event could happen in one and not
another, but that is hardly a matter of will.
how then could
determinisism define how I learned the material, my thoughts ect.
This question seems to be gibberish. Determinism is a belief (or some
other, weaker, acceptance) that all things are causally connected. It
doesn't define how anything works.
If I understand what you're trying to say, though, you're asking "How
could these things be predicted?" But that assumes that a deterministic
universe implies predictability. And it makes the assumption that we
have the tools to answer those questions at all, not to mention a
scientific theory that would allow us to make such predictions.
In any event, I would say determinism is false. Quantum mechanics
pretty much nailed that coffin shut. Doesn't mean I believe in this
mystical "free will", just that the universe has an element of
randomness.
<snip>
I think there lies where are free will can be,
that and the fact "just being" we alter our own enviroment,
In a way that squirrels do not?
hence we
have our own hand in the determing factors that drive us.
Yes, but what drives that hand?
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Determinism |
05 Jan 2007 06:40:34 AM |
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Chris Johnson <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
platothelapdog wrote:
I think there lies where are free will can be,
that and the fact "just being" we alter our own enviroment,
In a way that squirrels do not?
We take up more space, plus squirrels can't blow things up with
nuclear weapons. :)
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Chris Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Determinism |
05 Jan 2007 06:53:11 AM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Chris Johnson <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
platothelapdog wrote:
I think there lies where are free will can be,
that and the fact "just being" we alter our own enviroment,
In a way that squirrels do not?
We take up more space, plus squirrels can't blow things up with
nuclear weapons. :)
Oh, but they would if they could. I've seen them out there. Plotting.
Gnawing.
Fluffy-tailed rats.
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Determinism |
05 Jan 2007 07:51:56 AM |
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Chris Johnson <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Chris Johnson <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
platothelapdog wrote:
I think there lies where are free will can be,
that and the fact "just being" we alter our own enviroment,
In a way that squirrels do not?
We take up more space, plus squirrels can't blow things up with
nuclear weapons. :)
Oh, but they would if they could. I've seen them out there. Plotting.
Gnawing.
Fluffy-tailed rats.
They did a good job of stripping my pecan trees clean this year before
I could harvest a single nut. Time to wage war on 'em, I think.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Chris Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Determinism |
05 Jan 2007 08:22:29 AM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Chris Johnson <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Chris Johnson <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
platothelapdog wrote:
I think there lies where are free will can be,
that and the fact "just being" we alter our own enviroment,
In a way that squirrels do not?
We take up more space, plus squirrels can't blow things up with
nuclear weapons. :)
Oh, but they would if they could. I've seen them out there. Plotting.
Gnawing.
Fluffy-tailed rats.
They did a good job of stripping my pecan trees clean this year before
I could harvest a single nut. Time to wage war on 'em, I think.
They've stripped our peach, apple, apricot, and plum trees consistently
for the last couple years. Probably only got a peach pie from this past
year's harvest.
.
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Determinism |
05 Jan 2007 08:43:29 AM |
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Chris Johnson <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Chris Johnson <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Chris Johnson <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
platothelapdog wrote:
I think there lies where are free will can be,
that and the fact "just being" we alter our own enviroment,
In a way that squirrels do not?
We take up more space, plus squirrels can't blow things up with
nuclear weapons. :)
Oh, but they would if they could. I've seen them out there. Plotting.
Gnawing.
Fluffy-tailed rats.
They did a good job of stripping my pecan trees clean this year before
I could harvest a single nut. Time to wage war on 'em, I think.
They've stripped our peach, apple, apricot, and plum trees consistently
for the last couple years. Probably only got a peach pie from this past
year's harvest.
Time to curtail some of their free will with some of our own, I think.
My cat used to keep 'em away, but now that he's gone, they have total
free will to invade my yard and do what they want. It's just not
right, I say.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Chris Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Determinism |
05 Jan 2007 08:22:57 AM |
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Elroy Willis wrote:
Chris Johnson <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
Elroy Willis wrote:
Chris Johnson <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism
platothelapdog wrote:
I think there lies where are free will can be,
that and the fact "just being" we alter our own enviroment,
In a way that squirrels do not?
We take up more space, plus squirrels can't blow things up with
nuclear weapons. :)
Oh, but they would if they could. I've seen them out there. Plotting.
Gnawing.
Fluffy-tailed rats.
They did a good job of stripping my pecan trees clean this year before
I could harvest a single nut. Time to wage war on 'em, I think.
They've stripped our peach, apple, apricot, and plum trees consistently
for the last couple years. Probably only got a peach pie from this past
year's harvest.
.
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