| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Patriotboy" |
| Date: |
09 Aug 2003 12:04:21 AM |
| Object: |
DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
"WASHINGTON, Aug. 8 Engineering experts from the Defense
Intelligence Agency have come to believe that the most likely use for
two mysterious trailers found in Iraq was to produce hydrogen for
weather balloons rather than to make biological weapons, government
officials say.
The classified findings by a majority of the engineering experts
differ from the view put forward in a white paper made public on May
28 by the C.I.A. and the Defense Intelligence Agency, which said that
the trailers were for making biological weapons.
That report had dismissed as a "cover story" claims by senior Iraqi
scientists that the trailers were used to make hydrogen for the
weather balloons that were then used in artillery practice.
A Defense Department official said the alternative views expressed by
members of the engineering team, not yet spelled out in a formal
report, had prompted the Defense Intelligence Agency to "pursue
additional information" to determine whether those Iraqi claims were
indeed accurate.
Officials at the C.I.A. and the Defense Department said today that
the two intelligence agencies still stood by the May 28 finding,
which President Bush has cited as evidence that Iraq had a biological
weapons program. The engineering teams' findings, which officials
from the Defense Department and other agencies would discuss only on
the condition of anonymity, add a new layer to disputes within the
intelligence community about the trailers found by allied forces in
Iraq in April and May.
The State Department's intelligence branch, which was not invited to
take part in the initial review, disputed the findings in a
memorandum on June 2. The fact that American and British intelligence
analysts with direct access to the evidence were disputing the claims
included in the C.I.A. white paper was first reported in June, along
with the analysts' concern that the evaluation of the mobile units
had been marred by a rush to judgment.
But it had not previously been known that a majority of the Defense
Intelligence Agency's engineering team had come to disagree with the
central finding of the white paper: that the trailers were used for
making biological weapons.
"The team has decided that in their minds, there could be another
use, for inefficient hydrogen production, most likely for balloons,"
a Defense Department official said.
The Defense Intelligence Agency's engineering teams had not concluded
their work in Iraq at the time the white paper was drafted, and so
their views were not taken into account at that time, the government
officials said. They said the engineering teams had discussed their
findings in meetings in Washington in June and again last month.
"We stand by the white paper," the Defense Department official said.
"But based on the assessment of the engineering team, it has caused
us to pursue additional information about possible alternative uses
for the trailers."
A C.I.A. official who spoke on the condition of anonymity said the
agency was "continuing to gather more information about the labs, but
we stand behind the white paper."
Since the white paper was made public in May, new information
suggesting that the trailers might have been used for making hydrogen
has come from Iraqi officials interrogated by American military
officers in Iraq, a military officer said today. Those Iraqi
officials have repeated the claims of Iraqi scientists that the
trailers were used to fill weather balloons, said the officer, who
spoke on the condition of anonymity.
Another government official from a different agency said the issue of
the trailers had prompted deep divisions within the Defense
Intelligence Agency. The official said members of the engineering
team had been angry that the agency issued the joint white paper with
the C.I.A. before their own work was completed.
The official said the question of how that had happened was being
examined by the defense agency's inspector general as part of a
broader inquiry that began in June.
A spokesman for the intelligence agency, Don Black, said he could not
comment on the work of the inspector general.
The Bush administration has said the two trailers are evidence that
Saddam Hussein was hiding a program for biological warfare. In the
white paper made public in May, it detailed its case even while
conceding discrepancies in the evidence and a lack of hard proof.
Senior administration officials have acknowledged that the United
States has found neither biological agents nor undisputed evidence
that the trailers were used to make such arms. They have said that
intelligence analysts in Washington and Baghdad reached their
conclusion about the trailers after analyzing, and rejecting,
alternative theories of how they could have been used.
That view, described as a consensus of opinion with the C.I.A. and
the Defense Intelligence Agency, was presented to the White House
before it was made public.
At that time, a senior official who examined the evidence in detail
and concluded that the trailers were used for biological weapons
said, "The experts who have crawled over this again and again can
come up with no other plausible legitimate use."
That official said the agencies had rejected the theory put forward
by Iraqi scientists who said one of the units was used to produce
hydrogen.
Today, a Defense Department official said of Iraq, "There is not
doubt in our minds that they had mobile biological weapons trailers."
But the official said there was disagreement within the Defense
Intelligence Agency about whether those found so far were used to
produce biological weapons or hydrogen.
The engineering team that has come to believe the trailers were used
to produce hydrogen includes experts whose task was to assess the
trailers from a purely technical standpoint, as opposed to one based
on other sources of intelligence. Skeptical experts had previously
cited a lack of equipment in the trailers for steam sterilization,
normally a prerequisite for any kind of biological production.
Bush administration officials have said the most compelling
information that the trailers were used for making biological weapons
has come from a human source, an Iraqi scientist who described the
trailers and what he said was their weapon-making role to American
experts months before the trailers were discovered.
The six-page report that was made public in May, "Iraqi Mobile
Biological Warfare Agent Production Plants," called discovery of the
trailers "the strongest evidence to date that Iraq was hiding a
biological warfare program."
Senior administration officials have said repeatedly that the White
House has not put pressure on the intelligence community in any way
on the content of its white paper, or on the timing of its release."
http://tinyurl.com/jha8
--
'The administration hastened from the beginning to
persuade us that defending America against terror
cannot be done without seriously abridging the protections
of the Constitution for American citizens, up to and
including an asserted right to place them in a form
of limbo totally beyond the authority of our courts.
And that view is both wrong and fundamentally un-American.'
--Al Gore
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| User: "beber" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
10 Aug 2003 04:48:36 PM |
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Bush administration officials have said the most compelling
information that the trailers were used for making biological weapons
has come from a human source, an Iraqi scientist who described the
trailers and what he said was their weapon-making role to American
experts months before the trailers were discovered.
Physics defeats Bush once again; they can shout and lie, but sooner or
later simple laws of nature catch up with them.
.
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| User: "pope_about_town at Xyahoo.com Johnny Asia" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
09 Aug 2003 07:16:09 PM |
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Instead The Observer has established that it is increasingly likely
that the units were designed to be used for hydrogen production to
fill artillery balloons, part of a system originally sold to Saddam by
Britain in 1987.
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4686547,00.html
Blow to Blair over 'mobile labs'
Saddam's trucks were for balloons, not germs
Peter Beaumont and Antony Barnett
Sunday June 8, 2003
The Observer
Tony Blair faces a fresh crisis over Iraq's alleged weapons of mass
destruction, as evidence emerges that two vehicles that he has
repeatedly claimed to be Iraqi mobile biological warfare production
units are nothing of the sort.
The intelligence agency MI6, British defence officers and technical
experts from the Porton Down microbiological research establishment
have been ordered to conduct an urgent review of the mobile
facilities, following US analysis which casts serious doubt on whether
they really are germ labs.
The British review comes amid widespread doubts expressed by
scientists on both sides of the Atlantic that the trucks could have
been used to make biological weapons.
Instead The Observer has established that it is increasingly likely
that the units were designed to be used for hydrogen production to
fill artillery balloons, part of a system originally sold to Saddam by
Britain in 1987.
The British review follows access by UK officials to the vehicles
which were discovered by US troops in April and May.
'We are being very careful now not to jump to any conclusions about
these vehicles,' said one source familiar with the investigation. 'On
the basis of intelligence we do believe that mobile labs do exist.
What is not certain is that these vehicles are actually them so we are
being careful not to jump the gun.'
The claim, however, that the two vehicles are mobile germ labs has
been repeated frequently by both Blair and President George Bush in
recent days in support of claims that they prove the existence of
Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.
During his whistle stop tour of the Gulf, Europe and Russia, Blair
repeatedly briefed journalists that the trailers were germ production
labs which proved that Iraq had WMD.
But chemical weapons experts, engineers, chemists and military systems
experts contacted by The Observer over the past week, say the layout
and equipment found on the trailers is entirely inconsistent with the
vehicles being mobile labs. Both US Secretary of State Colin Powell,
when he addressed the UN Security Council prior to the war, and the
British Government alleged that Saddam had such labs.
A separate investigation published by the New York Times yesterday
discloses that the trailers have now been investigated by three
different teams of Western experts, with the third and most senior
group of analysts apparently divided sharply over their function.
'I have no great confidence that it's a fermenter,' a senior analyst
said of a tank supposed to be capable of multiplying seed germs into
lethal swarms. The government's public report, he said, 'was a rushed
job and looks political'. The analyst had not seen the trailers, but
reviewed evidence from them.
Another intelligence expert who has seen the trailers told the US
paper: 'Everyone has wanted to find the "smoking gun" so much that
they may have wanted to have reached this conclusion. I am very upset
with the process.'
Questions over the claimed purpose of trailer for making biological
weapons include:
· The lack of any trace of pathogens found in the fermentation tanks.
According to experts, when weapons inspectors checked tanks in the
mid-Nineties that had been scoured to disguise their real use, traces
of pathogens were still detectable.
· The use of canvas sides on vehicles where technicians would be
working with dangerous germ cultures.
· A shortage of pumps required to create vacuum conditions required
for working with germ cultures and other processes usually associated
with making biological weapons.
· The lack of an autoclave for steam sterilisation, normally a
prerequisite for any kind of biological production. Its lack of
availability between production runs would threaten to let in germ
contaminants, resulting in failed weapons.
· The lack of any easy way for technicians to remove germ fluids from
the processing tank.
One of those expressing severe doubts about the alleged mobile germ
labs is Professor Harry Smith, who chairs the Royal Society's working
party on biological weapons.
He told The Observer 'I am concerned about the canvas sides. Ideally,
you would want airtight facilities for making something like anthrax.
Not only that, it is a very resistant organism and even if the Iraqis
cleaned the equipment, I would still expect to find some trace of it.'
His view is shared by the working group of the Federation of American
Scientists and by the CIA, which states: 'Senior Iraqi officials of
the al-Kindi Research, Testing, Development, and Engineering facility
in Mosul were shown pictures of the mobile production trailers, and
they claimed that the trailers were used to chemically produce
hydrogen for artillery weather balloons.'
Artillery balloons are essentially balloons that are sent up into the
atmosphere and relay information on wind direction and speed allowing
more accurate artillery fire. Crucially, these systems need to be
mobile.
The Observer has discovered that not only did the Iraq military have
such a system at one time, but that it was actually sold to them by
the British. In 1987 Marconi, now known as AMS, sold the Iraqi army an
Artillery Meteorological System or Amets for short.
Additional reporting by Solomon Hughes
Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2003
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4686547,00.html
+
"The power of accurate observation is called cynicism
by those who have not got it." - G. B. Shaw
The First Church of Common Sense
Want to know what's REALLY going on in Iraq?
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/wakeup.html
The Rise and Fall of the Holy Roller Empire
The God-Awful Truth about Christian Zionism
http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html
.
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| User: "Patriotboy" |
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| Title: "Thoughtcrime was not a thing that could be concealed forever" |
10 Aug 2003 01:17:05 AM |
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"NEW YORK (AP)--A federal judge broadened judicial oversight of the
city's police department Thursday, saying the force showed some need
of discipline after subjecting anti-war protesters to questions
including whether they hated President Bush.
Judge Charles S. Haight Jr. said there was evidence of ``operational
ignorance'' by the department's highest officials about the
interrogations of some of the 274 people who were arrested during a
Feb. 15 demonstration.
Haight ruled that a version of FBI guidelines for investigations
involving political activity must be added to an existing consent
decree between civil rights advocates and the city.
The judge will now have the authority to find the city in contempt of
court if the guidelines are violated.
In April, the judge relaxed some of the judicial oversight of
investigations involving political activity after the city complained
that the consent decree was hampering its effort to fight terrorism
after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
But he decided to toughen the decree after civil rights lawyers
complained about the interrogations of those arrested at anti-war
rallies in February and March.
Questions posed to protesters included: ``Do you hate George W. Bush?
Do you think anything would be different if Al Gore were elected?
What is your opinion of the war in Iraq?''
``These recent events reveal an NYPD in some need of discipline,''
the judge said.
Commissioner Ray Kelly said Haight's decision did not alter the
NYPD's freedom to surveil political activity, which he called the
most important facet of the ruling.
The city law office said in a statement that the decision would allow
the police department to balance public safety while protecting
constitutional freedoms.
Jethro Eisenstein, a lawyer who has fought to strengthen the consent
decree, said the police officers who interrogated protesters had
tried to intimidate them with the attitude: ```America, love it or
leave it, whatever the government does should be supported.' That's
very intimidating to someone in custody.''
The judge's ruling was a rewriting of a consent decree that
established the Handschu guidelines, which carry the name of lead
plaintiff Barbara Handschu in a case that included 1960s radical
activist Abbie Hoffman and others as plaintiffs.
The guidelines govern what the police are allowed to do to
investigate political activity. The FBI guidelines were distributed
to police and were to be followed but were not formally made part of
the Handschu guidelines.
The consent decree settled a 1971 lawsuit brought by the Black
Panther Party alleging that police engaged in widespread surveillance
of legitimate political activity and distributed their information
elsewhere, including to law enforcement groups."
http://www.statesman.com/aponline/content/news/ap/ap_story.html/Natio
nal/AP.V1442.AP-NYPD-Surveillan.html
--
'The administration hastened from the beginning to
persuade us that defending America against terror
cannot be done without seriously abridging the protections
of the Constitution for American citizens, up to and
including an asserted right to place them in a form
of limbo totally beyond the authority of our courts.
And that view is both wrong and fundamentally un-American.'
--Al Gore
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
09 Aug 2003 10:48:45 AM |
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On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:04:21 -0000, a wanderer, known to us only as
Patriotboy <tim@somecallme.net> warmed at our fire and told this
tale:
"WASHINGTON, Aug. 8 Engineering experts from the Defense
Intelligence Agency have come to believe that the most likely use for
two mysterious trailers found in Iraq was to produce hydrogen for
weather balloons rather than to make biological weapons, government
officials say.
Just out of curiosity.. what does this have to with atheism?
--
Douglas Berry
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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| User: "Patriotboy" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
09 Aug 2003 02:53:32 PM |
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On 09 Aug 2003, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> posted
this:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:04:21 -0000, a wanderer, known to us only
as Patriotboy <tim@somecallme.net> warmed at our fire and told
this tale:
"WASHINGTON, Aug. 8 Engineering experts from the Defense
Intelligence Agency have come to believe that the most likely
use for two mysterious trailers found in Iraq was to produce
hydrogen for weather balloons rather than to make biological
weapons, government officials say.
Just out of curiosity.. what does this have to with atheism?
The belief that the trailers were mobile bio-weapons labs is minor
doctrine of our faith-based foreign policy.
--
'The administration hastened from the beginning to
persuade us that defending America against terror
cannot be done without seriously abridging the protections
of the Constitution for American citizens, up to and
including an asserted right to place them in a form
of limbo totally beyond the authority of our courts.
And that view is both wrong and fundamentally un-American.'
--Al Gore
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
09 Aug 2003 03:26:34 PM |
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On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:53:32 -0000, Patriotboy <tim@somecallme.net>
wrote:
On 09 Aug 2003, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> posted
this:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:04:21 -0000, a wanderer, known to us only
as Patriotboy <tim@somecallme.net> warmed at our fire and told
this tale:
"WASHINGTON, Aug. 8 Engineering experts from the Defense
Intelligence Agency have come to believe that the most likely
use for two mysterious trailers found in Iraq was to produce
hydrogen for weather balloons rather than to make biological
weapons, government officials say.
Just out of curiosity.. what does this have to with atheism?
The belief that the trailers were mobile bio-weapons labs is minor
doctrine of our faith-based foreign policy.
And it illustrates the difference between belief and knowledge: we
believed they had WMD so we interpreted everything based on that
presumption. And because of that belief we slaughtered thousands of
their civilians and even more of their military.
Remember the Panama invasion and Noriega's sack of white powder that
turned out to be flour for tamales and not cocaine?
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
09 Aug 2003 03:47:40 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:53:32 -0000, Patriotboy <tim@somecallme.net>
wrote:
On 09 Aug 2003, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> posted
this:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:04:21 -0000, a wanderer, known to us only
as Patriotboy <tim@somecallme.net> warmed at our fire and told
this tale:
"WASHINGTON, Aug. 8 Engineering experts from the Defense
Intelligence Agency have come to believe that the most likely
use for two mysterious trailers found in Iraq was to produce
hydrogen for weather balloons rather than to make biological
weapons, government officials say.
Just out of curiosity.. what does this have to with atheism?
The belief that the trailers were mobile bio-weapons labs is minor
doctrine of our faith-based foreign policy.
And it illustrates the difference between belief and knowledge: we
believed they had WMD so we interpreted everything based on that
presumption. And because of that belief we slaughtered thousands of
their civilians and even more of their military.
Remember the Panama invasion and Noriega's sack of white powder that
turned out to be flour for tamales and not cocaine?
And this demonstrates the difference between propaganda and history: in
BOTH cases we *DID NOT* simply presume that they were what we wished
they were but we submitted them to analysis to *find out* if that's what
they *really* were.
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
09 Aug 2003 04:09:07 PM |
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"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote
And this demonstrates the difference between propaganda and
history: in BOTH cases we *DID NOT* simply presume that
they were what we wished [...]
Apparently you never witnessed the right-wing reaction to Bill
Clinton.
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
09 Aug 2003 04:18:34 PM |
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JTEM wrote:
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote
And this demonstrates the difference between propaganda and
history: in BOTH cases we *DID NOT* simply presume that
they were what we wished [...]
Apparently you never witnessed the right-wing reaction to Bill
Clinton.
Yeah right. We had billy-boy figured out for an aw-shucks lying weasel
when he claimed he didn't inhale.
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
09 Aug 2003 04:56:23 PM |
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"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote
Yeah right. We had billy-boy figured out for an aw-shucks
lying weasel when he claimed he didn't inhale.
Now we have a "President" who did inhale... and snort...
and gulp... and pull strings to avoid the draft ("Draft
Dodging")... only to desert his unit...
--
A recommendation (or a shameless plug for
a friend):
http://www.brucegarrett.com/brucelog.htm
Other friends & interests to follow.
.
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| User: "Clave" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
09 Aug 2003 11:05:10 PM |
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"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:3F35652A.8090600@earthling.com...
JTEM wrote:
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote
And this demonstrates the difference between propaganda and
history: in BOTH cases we *DID NOT* simply presume that
they were what we wished [...]
Apparently you never witnessed the right-wing reaction to Bill
Clinton.
Yeah right. We had billy-boy figured out for an aw-shucks lying weasel
when he claimed he didn't inhale.
Must really chap your hide to know that he was legitimately elected. Twice.
Jim
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
10 Aug 2003 04:56:08 AM |
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Clave wrote:
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:3F35652A.8090600@earthling.com...
JTEM wrote:
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote
And this demonstrates the difference between propaganda and
history: in BOTH cases we *DID NOT* simply presume that
they were what we wished [...]
Apparently you never witnessed the right-wing reaction to Bill
Clinton.
Yeah right. We had billy-boy figured out for an aw-shucks lying weasel
when he claimed he didn't inhale.
Must really chap your hide to know that he was legitimately elected. Twice.
Not at all. But I'm sure it *really* chaps yours to know that Bush was
legally and legitimately elected.
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
10 Aug 2003 05:15:02 AM |
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JTEM wrote:
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote
Not at all. But I'm sure it *really* chaps yours to know
that Bush was legally and legitimately elected.
So do you have a permanent 'Kick Me' sign on your back,
or what?
What are you, a lapdog? Down, boy! Heel!
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
10 Aug 2003 10:06:33 AM |
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"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote
What are you, a lapdog? Down, boy! Heel!
Remember when you were defending all of Bush's
"evidence" for the WMDs as compelling?
I do.
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| User: "KazamaSmokers" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
10 Aug 2003 03:19:36 PM |
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message news:<3F35652A.8090600@earthling.com>...
JTEM wrote:
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote
And this demonstrates the difference between propaganda and
history: in BOTH cases we *DID NOT* simply presume that
they were what we wished [...]
Apparently you never witnessed the right-wing reaction to Bill
Clinton.
Yeah right. We had billy-boy figured out for an aw-shucks lying weasel
when he claimed he didn't inhale.
Admittedly, it's not much of a choice, but I'd rather have a President
who smoked marijuana but didn't inhale, than a President who had the
intelligence reports, but didn't read them.
.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
10 Aug 2003 03:34:07 PM |
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KazamaSmokers wrote:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message news:<3F35652A.8090600@earthling.com>...
JTEM wrote:
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote
And this demonstrates the difference between propaganda and
history: in BOTH cases we *DID NOT* simply presume that
they were what we wished [...]
Apparently you never witnessed the right-wing reaction to Bill
Clinton.
Yeah right. We had billy-boy figured out for an aw-shucks lying weasel
when he claimed he didn't inhale.
Admittedly, it's not much of a choice, but I'd rather have a President
who smoked marijuana but didn't inhale, than a President who had the
intelligence reports, but didn't read them.
Sure, who cares if the Chinese steal all our secrets, or the North
Koreans are taking our money and not fulfilling their side of the bargain?
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
12 Aug 2003 12:02:17 AM |
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"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote
Sure, who cares if the Chinese steal all our secrets,
Of course, "Fred," you do know that those stories were
proven untrue.
Yes, there were a lot of allegations thrown about by the
partisan Republicans who have yet to let up on their
ceaseless attacks on Bill Clinton.
Those allegations, like all the others, have proven to
be untrue.
The "Suspected" spy's career was ruined, his reputation
soiled, but he was released. His only crime was
improperly handling equipment that had contained sensitive
information.
But don't let the truth stop you, "Fred." Trolling is the only
way a total loser can get any attanetion.
Can you prove me wrong, "Fred"? Have you got the guts to
try?
I didn't think so.
or the North
Koreans are taking our money and not fulfilling their side of the bargain?
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
.
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| User: "Thom" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
14 Aug 2003 07:51:47 PM |
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On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 01:02:17 -0400, "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote
Sure, who cares if the Chinese steal all our secrets,
Of course, "Fred," you do know that those stories were
proven untrue.
Yes, there were a lot of allegations thrown about by the
partisan Republicans who have yet to let up on their
ceaseless attacks on Bill Clinton.
and bore the hell out of us by putting them on alt.politics.bush where
clinton is not cared about.
THOM<
Those allegations, like all the others, have proven to
be untrue.
The "Suspected" spy's career was ruined, his reputation
soiled, but he was released. His only crime was
improperly handling equipment that had contained sensitive
information.
But don't let the truth stop you, "Fred." Trolling is the only
way a total loser can get any attanetion.
Can you prove me wrong, "Fred"? Have you got the guts to
try?
I didn't think so.
or the North
Koreans are taking our money and not fulfilling their side of the bargain?
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
18 Aug 2003 06:19:23 PM |
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"Thom" <thomandpam@yahoo.com.au> wrote
"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yes, there were a lot of allegations thrown about by the
partisan Republicans who have yet to let up on their
ceaseless attacks on Bill Clinton.
and bore the hell out of us by putting them on alt.politics.bush
where clinton is not cared about.
Of course not. The economy actually grew under Clinton.
That, and he got the most votes. Twice.
Bush will forever be tainted by the 2000 election theft.
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| User: "KazamaSmokers" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
10 Aug 2003 08:03:25 PM |
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message news:<3F36AC3F.6070805@earthling.com>...
KazamaSmokers wrote:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message news:<3F35652A.8090600@earthling.com>...
JTEM wrote:
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote
And this demonstrates the difference between propaganda and
history: in BOTH cases we *DID NOT* simply presume that
they were what we wished [...]
Apparently you never witnessed the right-wing reaction to Bill
Clinton.
Yeah right. We had billy-boy figured out for an aw-shucks lying weasel
when he claimed he didn't inhale.
Admittedly, it's not much of a choice, but I'd rather have a President
who smoked marijuana but didn't inhale, than a President who had the
intelligence reports, but didn't read them.
Sure, who cares if the Chinese steal all our secrets,
Cite please. Proof.
or the North Koreans are taking our money and not fulfilling their side of the bargain?
And on who's watch did they go nuclear?
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
10 Aug 2003 08:35:11 PM |
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KazamaSmokers wrote:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message news:<3F36AC3F.6070805@earthling.com>...
KazamaSmokers wrote:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message news:<3F35652A.8090600@earthling.com>...
JTEM wrote:
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote
And this demonstrates the difference between propaganda and
history: in BOTH cases we *DID NOT* simply presume that
they were what we wished [...]
Apparently you never witnessed the right-wing reaction to Bill
Clinton.
Yeah right. We had billy-boy figured out for an aw-shucks lying weasel
when he claimed he didn't inhale.
Admittedly, it's not much of a choice, but I'd rather have a President
who smoked marijuana but didn't inhale, than a President who had the
intelligence reports, but didn't read them.
Sure, who cares if the Chinese steal all our secrets,
Cite please. Proof.
http://www.probe.org/docs/c-chinese.html
or the North Koreans are taking our money and not fulfilling their side of the bargain?
And on who's watch did they go nuclear?
They've been nuclear for a long time. Clinton was supposed to be getting
them to draw down and all they did was keep right on going.
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
10 Aug 2003 10:52:02 PM |
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"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote
http://www.probe.org/docs/c-chinese.html
It's not a "Cite" it's an allegation.
A "Cite" would be a source document, and not a lunatic
right-winger.
For example, a government document saying that something
"may have" occured (though they're not sure) is an actual
source document. What this story amounts to, quite literally,
is he-said-she-said. The author is saying that someone else
is saying that something may have happened (though they're
really not sure).
Even more interestingly: The story wasn't true. I mean, sure,
there really were allegations and even a "Suspect" was
named at one time. But that suspect was cleared and *Zero*
evidence of any information transfer to China was uncovered.
Information was "Compromised" -- defined as handled
improperly -- but there is no evidence to suggest that it was
transfered to China.
You're dishonest as ever, "Fred."
--
A recommendation (or a shameless plug for
a friend):
http://www.brucegarrett.com/brucelog.htm
Other friends & interests to follow.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
12 Aug 2003 12:05:33 AM |
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P.S.
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote
or the North Koreans are taking our money and not
fulfilling their side of the bargain?
The north Koreans did fulfill their bargain, "Fred."
You do know this, of course.
The north Koreans had stopped their nuclear program,
after they had built a number of weapons under the
ever-watchful eyes of the Republicans. Not a single
north Korean nuclear weapon was built under Clinton,
and not a single north Korean nuclear weapon has
been built under George Dubya. At least not yet.
But, you knew you were lying. You have to be
provocative or nobody will give you the time of day,
never mind your desperately needed attention.
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| User: "KazamaSmokers" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
10 Aug 2003 03:17:28 PM |
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message news:<3F355DEC.8010600@earthling.com>...
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:53:32 -0000, Patriotboy <tim@somecallme.net>
wrote:
On 09 Aug 2003, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> posted
this:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:04:21 -0000, a wanderer, known to us only
as Patriotboy <tim@somecallme.net> warmed at our fire and told
this tale:
"WASHINGTON, Aug. 8 Engineering experts from the Defense
Intelligence Agency have come to believe that the most likely
use for two mysterious trailers found in Iraq was to produce
hydrogen for weather balloons rather than to make biological
weapons, government officials say.
Just out of curiosity.. what does this have to with atheism?
The belief that the trailers were mobile bio-weapons labs is minor
doctrine of our faith-based foreign policy.
And it illustrates the difference between belief and knowledge: we
believed they had WMD so we interpreted everything based on that
presumption. And because of that belief we slaughtered thousands of
their civilians and even more of their military.
Remember the Panama invasion and Noriega's sack of white powder that
turned out to be flour for tamales and not cocaine?
And this demonstrates the difference between propaganda and history: in
BOTH cases we *DID NOT* simply presume that they were what we wished
they were but we submitted them to analysis to *find out* if that's what
they *really* were.
Actually, you're completely WRONG about that. The DIA/CIA issued a
joint report back on June 2nd saying the trailers were bioweapons
facilities. That was BEFORE the DIA engineering team (the people
actually INSPECTING the rigs) had released their report on their
findings.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
10 Aug 2003 03:30:00 PM |
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KazamaSmokers wrote:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message news:<3F355DEC.8010600@earthling.com>...
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:53:32 -0000, Patriotboy <tim@somecallme.net>
wrote:
On 09 Aug 2003, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> posted
this:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:04:21 -0000, a wanderer, known to us only
as Patriotboy <tim@somecallme.net> warmed at our fire and told
this tale:
"WASHINGTON, Aug. 8 Engineering experts from the Defense
Intelligence Agency have come to believe that the most likely
use for two mysterious trailers found in Iraq was to produce
hydrogen for weather balloons rather than to make biological
weapons, government officials say.
Just out of curiosity.. what does this have to with atheism?
The belief that the trailers were mobile bio-weapons labs is minor
doctrine of our faith-based foreign policy.
And it illustrates the difference between belief and knowledge: we
believed they had WMD so we interpreted everything based on that
presumption. And because of that belief we slaughtered thousands of
their civilians and even more of their military.
Remember the Panama invasion and Noriega's sack of white powder that
turned out to be flour for tamales and not cocaine?
And this demonstrates the difference between propaganda and history: in
BOTH cases we *DID NOT* simply presume that they were what we wished
they were but we submitted them to analysis to *find out* if that's what
they *really* were.
Actually, you're completely WRONG about that. The DIA/CIA issued a
joint report back on June 2nd saying the trailers were bioweapons
facilities. That was BEFORE the DIA engineering team (the people
actually INSPECTING the rigs) had released their report on their
findings.
If I were WRONG about that, the DIA/CIA would have recalled their
investigating team and burned the trailers so that nobody could
contradict their *preliminary* report.
--
Fred Stone
Conquering the Galaxy since 2003
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| User: "KazamaSmokers" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
10 Aug 2003 09:45:46 PM |
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Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message news:<3F36AB48.2070807@earthling.com>...
KazamaSmokers wrote:
Fred Stone <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message news:<3F355DEC.8010600@earthling.com>...
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:53:32 -0000, Patriotboy <tim@somecallme.net>
wrote:
On 09 Aug 2003, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> posted
this:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:04:21 -0000, a wanderer, known to us only
as Patriotboy <tim@somecallme.net> warmed at our fire and told
this tale:
"WASHINGTON, Aug. 8 Engineering experts from the Defense
Intelligence Agency have come to believe that the most likely
use for two mysterious trailers found in Iraq was to produce
hydrogen for weather balloons rather than to make biological
weapons, government officials say.
Just out of curiosity.. what does this have to with atheism?
The belief that the trailers were mobile bio-weapons labs is minor
doctrine of our faith-based foreign policy.
And it illustrates the difference between belief and knowledge: we
believed they had WMD so we interpreted everything based on that
presumption. And because of that belief we slaughtered thousands of
their civilians and even more of their military.
Remember the Panama invasion and Noriega's sack of white powder that
turned out to be flour for tamales and not cocaine?
And this demonstrates the difference between propaganda and history: in
BOTH cases we *DID NOT* simply presume that they were what we wished
they were but we submitted them to analysis to *find out* if that's what
they *really* were.
Actually, you're completely WRONG about that. The DIA/CIA issued a
joint report back on June 2nd saying the trailers were bioweapons
facilities. That was BEFORE the DIA engineering team (the people
actually INSPECTING the rigs) had released their report on their
findings.
If I were WRONG about that, the DIA/CIA would have recalled their
investigating team and burned the trailers so that nobody could
contradict their *preliminary* report.
I'm not sure what you even mean here. The joint report included
"findings"... hence, it was not a preliminary report. The fact that it
was released before the engineering team completed their appraisal
speaks for itself. Some things you can spin, dude... but sometimes, no
matter where you stand, ya just gotta call BS.
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| User: "Wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
10 Aug 2003 03:43:03 PM |
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Fred Stone wrote:
Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:53:32 -0000, Patriotboy <tim@somecallme.net>
wrote:
On 09 Aug 2003, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> posted
this:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:04:21 -0000, a wanderer, known to us only
as Patriotboy <tim@somecallme.net> warmed at our fire and told
this tale:
"WASHINGTON, Aug. 8 Engineering experts from the Defense
Intelligence Agency have come to believe that the most likely
use for two mysterious trailers found in Iraq was to produce
hydrogen for weather balloons rather than to make biological
weapons, government officials say.
Just out of curiosity.. what does this have to with atheism?
The belief that the trailers were mobile bio-weapons labs is minor
doctrine of our faith-based foreign policy.
And it illustrates the difference between belief and knowledge: we
believed they had WMD so we interpreted everything based on that
presumption. And because of that belief we slaughtered thousands of
their civilians and even more of their military.
Remember the Panama invasion and Noriega's sack of white powder that
turned out to be flour for tamales and not cocaine?
And this demonstrates the difference between propaganda and history: in
BOTH cases we *DID NOT* simply presume that they were what we wished
they were but we submitted them to analysis to *find out* if that's what
they *really* were.
No, adminstratuions spew propaganda liberally, knowing full well most
people will never read deep enough to see the debunking that comes later.
Thus many Americans, seeing only headlines of pronouncements by liars like
Bush, Rice and Rumsfedld are under the very mistaken impression Saddam idi
have WMDs, and that these were found. Based onlies trumpetted by Bush,
Rumsfeld and Rice.
The right knows this is how it works and uses it to spread lies.
It has been doing this since the Vitenam war days.
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "David Haapala" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
09 Aug 2003 01:53:11 AM |
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http://tinyurl.com/jhf3
http://tinyurl.com/jhf7
http://tinyurl.com/jhf9
Yup, let's all firmly believe in the truth as reported.
By-the-way, I only took the first few links of page on of
10 on a google search using the terms, "NY times reporter lies".
"Patriotboy" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in message
news:Xns93D1E0A7A5F4Ftimsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
| "WASHINGTON, Aug. 8 Engineering experts from the Defense
| Intelligence Agency have come to believe that the most likely use for
| two mysterious trailers found in Iraq was to produce hydrogen for
| weather balloons rather than to make biological weapons, government
| officials say.
|
| The classified findings by a majority of the engineering experts
| differ from the view put forward in a white paper made public on May
| 28 by the C.I.A. and the Defense Intelligence Agency, which said that
| the trailers were for making biological weapons.
|
| That report had dismissed as a "cover story" claims by senior Iraqi
| scientists that the trailers were used to make hydrogen for the
| weather balloons that were then used in artillery practice.
|
| A Defense Department official said the alternative views expressed by
| members of the engineering team, not yet spelled out in a formal
| report, had prompted the Defense Intelligence Agency to "pursue
| additional information" to determine whether those Iraqi claims were
| indeed accurate.
|
| Officials at the C.I.A. and the Defense Department said today that
| the two intelligence agencies still stood by the May 28 finding,
| which President Bush has cited as evidence that Iraq had a biological
| weapons program. The engineering teams' findings, which officials
| from the Defense Department and other agencies would discuss only on
| the condition of anonymity, add a new layer to disputes within the
| intelligence community about the trailers found by allied forces in
| Iraq in April and May.
|
| The State Department's intelligence branch, which was not invited to
| take part in the initial review, disputed the findings in a
| memorandum on June 2. The fact that American and British intelligence
| analysts with direct access to the evidence were disputing the claims
| included in the C.I.A. white paper was first reported in June, along
| with the analysts' concern that the evaluation of the mobile units
| had been marred by a rush to judgment.
|
| But it had not previously been known that a majority of the Defense
| Intelligence Agency's engineering team had come to disagree with the
| central finding of the white paper: that the trailers were used for
| making biological weapons.
|
| "The team has decided that in their minds, there could be another
| use, for inefficient hydrogen production, most likely for balloons,"
| a Defense Department official said.
|
| The Defense Intelligence Agency's engineering teams had not concluded
| their work in Iraq at the time the white paper was drafted, and so
| their views were not taken into account at that time, the government
| officials said. They said the engineering teams had discussed their
| findings in meetings in Washington in June and again last month.
|
| "We stand by the white paper," the Defense Department official said.
| "But based on the assessment of the engineering team, it has caused
| us to pursue additional information about possible alternative uses
| for the trailers."
|
| A C.I.A. official who spoke on the condition of anonymity said the
| agency was "continuing to gather more information about the labs, but
| we stand behind the white paper."
|
| Since the white paper was made public in May, new information
| suggesting that the trailers might have been used for making hydrogen
| has come from Iraqi officials interrogated by American military
| officers in Iraq, a military officer said today. Those Iraqi
| officials have repeated the claims of Iraqi scientists that the
| trailers were used to fill weather balloons, said the officer, who
| spoke on the condition of anonymity.
|
| Another government official from a different agency said the issue of
| the trailers had prompted deep divisions within the Defense
| Intelligence Agency. The official said members of the engineering
| team had been angry that the agency issued the joint white paper with
| the C.I.A. before their own work was completed.
|
| The official said the question of how that had happened was being
| examined by the defense agency's inspector general as part of a
| broader inquiry that began in June.
|
| A spokesman for the intelligence agency, Don Black, said he could not
| comment on the work of the inspector general.
|
| The Bush administration has said the two trailers are evidence that
| Saddam Hussein was hiding a program for biological warfare. In the
| white paper made public in May, it detailed its case even while
| conceding discrepancies in the evidence and a lack of hard proof.
|
| Senior administration officials have acknowledged that the United
| States has found neither biological agents nor undisputed evidence
| that the trailers were used to make such arms. They have said that
| intelligence analysts in Washington and Baghdad reached their
| conclusion about the trailers after analyzing, and rejecting,
| alternative theories of how they could have been used.
|
| That view, described as a consensus of opinion with the C.I.A. and
| the Defense Intelligence Agency, was presented to the White House
| before it was made public.
|
| At that time, a senior official who examined the evidence in detail
| and concluded that the trailers were used for biological weapons
| said, "The experts who have crawled over this again and again can
| come up with no other plausible legitimate use."
|
| That official said the agencies had rejected the theory put forward
| by Iraqi scientists who said one of the units was used to produce
| hydrogen.
|
| Today, a Defense Department official said of Iraq, "There is not
| doubt in our minds that they had mobile biological weapons trailers."
| But the official said there was disagreement within the Defense
| Intelligence Agency about whether those found so far were used to
| produce biological weapons or hydrogen.
|
| The engineering team that has come to believe the trailers were used
| to produce hydrogen includes experts whose task was to assess the
| trailers from a purely technical standpoint, as opposed to one based
| on other sources of intelligence. Skeptical experts had previously
| cited a lack of equipment in the trailers for steam sterilization,
| normally a prerequisite for any kind of biological production.
|
| Bush administration officials have said the most compelling
| information that the trailers were used for making biological weapons
| has come from a human source, an Iraqi scientist who described the
| trailers and what he said was their weapon-making role to American
| experts months before the trailers were discovered.
|
| The six-page report that was made public in May, "Iraqi Mobile
| Biological Warfare Agent Production Plants," called discovery of the
| trailers "the strongest evidence to date that Iraq was hiding a
| biological warfare program."
|
| Senior administration officials have said repeatedly that the White
| House has not put pressure on the intelligence community in any way
| on the content of its white paper, or on the timing of its release."
| http://tinyurl.com/jha8
|
|
| --
| 'The administration hastened from the beginning to
| persuade us that defending America against terror
| cannot be done without seriously abridging the protections
| of the Constitution for American citizens, up to and
| including an asserted right to place them in a form
| of limbo totally beyond the authority of our courts.
| And that view is both wrong and fundamentally un-American.'
| --Al Gore
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| User: "Patriotboy" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
09 Aug 2003 02:02:44 AM |
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On 08 Aug 2003, "David Haapala" <dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com>
posted this:
Yup, let's all firmly believe in the truth as reported.
By-the-way, I only took the first few links of page on of
10 on a google search using the terms, "NY times reporter lies".
Jason Blaire didn't write this story. You know the Times fired him
don't you?
So are you claiming that the Times is lying about the DIA's findings?
--
'The administration hastened from the beginning to
persuade us that defending America against terror
cannot be done without seriously abridging the protections
of the Constitution for American citizens, up to and
including an asserted right to place them in a form
of limbo totally beyond the authority of our courts.
And that view is both wrong and fundamentally un-American.'
--Al Gore
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| User: "Patriotboy" |
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| Title: Re: DIA experts believe trailers used to produce hydrogen. |
09 Aug 2003 02:40:38 AM |
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On 09 Aug 2003, "David Haapala"
<dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> posted this:
"Patriotboy" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote in message
news:Xns93D28ECAF92timsomecallme@216.168.3.44...
| On 08 Aug 2003, "David Haapala"
| <dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> posted this:
|
| > Yup, let's all firmly believe in the truth as reported.
| > By-the-way, I only took the first few links of page on of
| > 10 on a google search using the terms, "NY times reporter
| > lies".
|
| Jason Blaire didn't write this story. You know the Times fired
| him don't you?
|
| So are you claiming that the Times is lying about the DIA's
| findings?
|
If one decides to believe the NYT as an incontrovertible
source of
fact, I only choose to point out it's record.
When one quotes the bible, one has to be expected to answer
for the
bible as a whole...
So are you claiming that the Times is lying about the DIA's findings?
--
'The administration hastened from the beginning to
persuade us that defending America against terror
cannot be done without seriously abridging the protections
of the Constitution for American citizens, up to and
including an asserted right to place them in a form
of limbo totally beyond the authority of our courts.
And that view is both wrong and fundamentally un-American.'
--Al Gore
.
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