| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"blondie" |
| Date: |
01 Mar 2004 01:46:22 PM |
| Object: |
did jesus really kill himself? |
ebert and others have pointed out that Passion isn't antisemitic
because it shows that Jesus expected to die. so the killer of christ
was christ himself and his pappy God.
but, isn't this suicide? isn't suicide sinful?
but, more importantly, i think such argument murks up the moral issue.
let's say an idealistic and courageous priest in sicily working for
the poor decides to stand up the local mafia goons. he fully
understands there's a good chance he'll be killed. he even EXPECTS it,
perhaps desires it. let's say he pushes forward with his actions and
gets killed. does this make the killers of priest innocent or
un-guilty? can they say in the court of law that they are not guilty
since the priest expected to be martyred?
whether jesus expected to die or not, it seems to me those who killed
him are still responsible. if i leave a watch on the table expecting
it to be stolen, the person who steals it is still a thief. i may be
stupid for having done so but it still makes the guy who took it a
criminal.
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| User: "Corse" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
01 Mar 2004 02:28:18 PM |
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"blondie" <ilbuono2@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5583c94f.0403011146.29c2b01f@posting.google.com...
ebert and others have pointed out that Passion isn't antisemitic
because it shows that Jesus expected to die. so the killer of christ
was christ himself and his pappy God.
but, isn't this suicide? isn't suicide sinful?
but, more importantly, i think such argument murks up the moral issue.
let's say an idealistic and courageous priest in sicily working for
the poor decides to stand up the local mafia goons. he fully
understands there's a good chance he'll be killed. he even EXPECTS it,
perhaps desires it. let's say he pushes forward with his actions and
gets killed. does this make the killers of priest innocent or
un-guilty? can they say in the court of law that they are not guilty
since the priest expected to be martyred?
whether jesus expected to die or not, it seems to me those who killed
him are still responsible. if i leave a watch on the table expecting
it to be stolen, the person who steals it is still a thief. i may be
stupid for having done so but it still makes the guy who took it a
criminal.
--------------
You are wrong because the person being killed was God. Being killed was
part of the plan. The people involved in the killing were intended to play
their part in the killing. Do you think, but for the Jews, Jesus would have
lived happily ever after? Had some kids? Gotten a good job? What about
the forgiveness of sin stuff? That was the point, ya know.
Corse
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| User: "Jeepers" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
01 Mar 2004 02:41:25 PM |
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In article <C1N0c.4638$N62.739@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>,
"Corse" <TseroC@pobox.com> wrote:
Jesus would have lived happily ever after?
Um, what happened to him after he came back to life?
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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| User: "Corse" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
01 Mar 2004 05:38:54 PM |
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"Jeepers" <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote in message
news:moomesa-2C6805.14412501032004@corp.newsfeeds.com...
In article <C1N0c.4638$N62.739@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>,
"Corse" <TseroC@pobox.com> wrote:
Jesus would have lived happily ever after?
Um, what happened to him after he came back to life?
-----
I dunno. He went to Disneyland?
Corse
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| User: "Kal Alexander" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
02 Mar 2004 08:17:23 AM |
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Corse wrote:
"Jeepers" <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote in message
news:moomesa-2C6805.14412501032004@corp.newsfeeds.com...
In article <C1N0c.4638$N62.739@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>,
"Corse" <TseroC@pobox.com> wrote:
Jesus would have lived happily ever after?
Um, what happened to him after he came back to life?
-----
I dunno. He went to Disneyland?
Corse
I'll be HE had no problem with long lines.
--
Later
Kal
-
Some people find fault like there
is a reward for it .
--Zig Ziglar
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
02 Mar 2004 02:51:26 PM |
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In article <TH01c.1579474$9p3.295212@news.easynews.com>,
kemilex@yahooxxx.com says...
Corse wrote:
"Jeepers" <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote in message
news:moomesa-2C6805.14412501032004@corp.newsfeeds.com...
In article <C1N0c.4638$N62.739@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>,
"Corse" <TseroC@pobox.com> wrote:
Jesus would have lived happily ever after?
Um, what happened to him after he came back to life?
-----
I dunno. He went to Disneyland?
Corse
I'll be HE had no problem with long lines.
yeah, but he probably bled all over the rides.
Actually, if Jesus had gone to the site of Disneyland in about 33 AD then
I suspect all he would have found was a mosquito infested swamp.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
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| User: "Corse" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
02 Mar 2004 05:43:42 PM |
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"quibbler" <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1aaea1bd954883f898a3fc@news.individual.net...
In article <TH01c.1579474$9p3.295212@news.easynews.com>,
kemilex@yahooxxx.com says...
Corse wrote:
"Jeepers" <moomesa@INVALIDfnbnet.net> wrote in message
news:moomesa-2C6805.14412501032004@corp.newsfeeds.com...
In article <C1N0c.4638$N62.739@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>,
"Corse" <TseroC@pobox.com> wrote:
Jesus would have lived happily ever after?
Um, what happened to him after he came back to life?
-----
I dunno. He went to Disneyland?
Corse
I'll be HE had no problem with long lines.
yeah, but he probably bled all over the rides.
Actually, if Jesus had gone to the site of Disneyland in about 33 AD then
I suspect all he would have found was a mosquito infested swamp.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
----------------
Southern California a swamp 2000 years ago? I think not dude.
Corse
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| User: "Razzbar" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
01 Mar 2004 08:49:58 PM |
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(blondie) wrote in message news:<5583c94f.0403011146.29c2b01f@posting.google.com>...
ebert and others have pointed out that Passion isn't antisemitic
because it shows that Jesus expected to die. so the killer of christ
was christ himself and his pappy God.
Hmmm.... he expected to die, so it isn't antisemitic. So I guess
nothing is antisemitic, 'cause he expected to die.
but, isn't this suicide? isn't suicide sinful?
Well, it is murder after all.
[...]
whether jesus expected to die or not, it seems to me those who killed
him are still responsible. if i leave a watch on the table expecting
it to be stolen, the person who steals it is still a thief. i may be
stupid for having done so but it still makes the guy who took it a
criminal.
How come the controversy of who done it, either seems to be "the Jews
did it", or not, or "we all did it", or this, suicide.
What I find interesting about the question of antisemitism in this
movie (the story itself actually) is that it implies that if they
were guilty then, they are guilty now. Otherwise, so what? It was
2000 years ago. I mean, nobody seems upset about how the Romans
are depicted, and there still are Romans in the world, as well
as Jews.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
01 Mar 2004 10:57:00 PM |
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"Razzbar" <glakk@potatoradio.f2s.com> wrote in message
news:c48470fc.0403011849.510804a5@posting.google.com...
What I find interesting about the question of antisemitism in this
movie (the story itself actually) is that it implies that if they
were guilty then, they are guilty now. Otherwise, so what? It was
2000 years ago. I mean, nobody seems upset about how the Romans
are depicted, and there still are Romans in the world, as well
as Jews.
The Romans aren't depicted blaming their own descendents the way the Jews
are, against all historical evidence that this was not a Jewish thought
pattern.
Susan
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| User: "Razzbar" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
02 Mar 2004 10:02:10 AM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<wuU0c.22165$C65.20104@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
"Razzbar" <glakk@potatoradio.f2s.com> wrote in message
news:c48470fc.0403011849.510804a5@posting.google.com...
What I find interesting about the question of antisemitism in this
movie (the story itself actually) is that it implies that if they
were guilty then, they are guilty now. Otherwise, so what? It was
2000 years ago. I mean, nobody seems upset about how the Romans
are depicted, and there still are Romans in the world, as well
as Jews.
The Romans aren't depicted blaming their own descendents the way the Jews
are, against all historical evidence that this was not a Jewish thought
pattern.
I'm not sure if I understand the sentence, Susan... Are Jews depicted
as blaming their own descendents?
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
02 Mar 2004 06:59:36 PM |
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"Razzbar" <glakk@potatoradio.f2s.com> wrote in message
news:c48470fc.0403020802.1ed95ddc@posting.google.com...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:<wuU0c.22165$C65.20104@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
"Razzbar" <glakk@potatoradio.f2s.com> wrote in message
news:c48470fc.0403011849.510804a5@posting.google.com...
What I find interesting about the question of antisemitism in this
movie (the story itself actually) is that it implies that if they
were guilty then, they are guilty now. Otherwise, so what? It was
2000 years ago. I mean, nobody seems upset about how the Romans
are depicted, and there still are Romans in the world, as well
as Jews.
The Romans aren't depicted blaming their own descendents the way the
Jews
are, against all historical evidence that this was not a Jewish thought
pattern.
I'm not sure if I understand the sentence, Susan... Are Jews depicted
as blaming their own descendents?
Give you a cigar!
Yes, they absolutely are.
& such a thing is completely against Jewish thought, Jewish teachings &
Jewish law.
Susan
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
02 Mar 2004 02:48:13 PM |
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In article <c48470fc.0403020802.1ed95ddc@posting.google.com>,
glakk@potatoradio.f2s.com says...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<wuU0c.22165$C65.20104@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
"Razzbar" <glakk@potatoradio.f2s.com> wrote in message
news:c48470fc.0403011849.510804a5@posting.google.com...
What I find interesting about the question of antisemitism in this
movie (the story itself actually) is that it implies that if they
were guilty then, they are guilty now. Otherwise, so what? It was
2000 years ago. I mean, nobody seems upset about how the Romans
are depicted, and there still are Romans in the world, as well
as Jews.
The Romans aren't depicted blaming their own descendents the way the Jews
are, against all historical evidence that this was not a Jewish thought
pattern.
I'm not sure if I understand the sentence, Susan... Are Jews depicted
as blaming their own descendents?
Some jews are depicted as accepting responsibility for the death of
Jesus. It would by no means include all Jews, nor would it apply to
their descendants in perpetuity, however, even if it was said.
Personally, I kind of doubt that they would have done it this way. If
they wanted to kill him so badly then they probably would have just hired
some people to slit his throat. Why go through the whole elaborate
process described in the gospels?
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
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| User: "Richard" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
01 Mar 2004 09:36:15 PM |
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(blondie) wrote in message news:<5583c94f.0403011146.29c2b01f@posting.google.com>...
ebert and others have pointed out that Passion isn't antisemitic
because it shows that Jesus expected to die. so the killer of christ
was christ himself and his pappy God.
but, isn't this suicide? isn't suicide sinful?
but, more importantly, i think such argument murks up the moral issue.
let's say an idealistic and courageous priest in sicily working for
the poor decides to stand up the local mafia goons. he fully
understands there's a good chance he'll be killed. he even EXPECTS it,
perhaps desires it. let's say he pushes forward with his actions and
gets killed. does this make the killers of priest innocent or
un-guilty? can they say in the court of law that they are not guilty
since the priest expected to be martyred?
whether jesus expected to die or not, it seems to me those who killed
him are still responsible. if i leave a watch on the table expecting
it to be stolen, the person who steals it is still a thief. i may be
stupid for having done so but it still makes the guy who took it a
criminal.
What is amusing is that nothing to do with the brutal Romans and what
they did to Christ is controversial. Probably because from the Romans
to the Papal Inquisitions, to WW2's Mussolini's air attacks on spear carrying
Ethiopians to the Mafia, it's no surprise what THEY did to Christ.
-Rich
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| User: "boomboom badoom" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
01 Mar 2004 03:01:30 PM |
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I think Jesus was a lot tougher than Moses. If these two were to battle it
out, Jesus would win every time...
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
01 Mar 2004 07:35:06 PM |
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"boomboom badoom" <no_email@no_email.ca> wrote in message
news:IwN0c.2977$i_2.32225@news20.bellglobal.com...
I think Jesus was a lot tougher than Moses. If these two were to battle it
out, Jesus would win every time...
According to the myths, Jesus was a god wearing a
human suit and Moses was just a man. Did you
really think you were telling anyone anything new?
This would be a stupid thing to ague about. And,
these aren't Star Trek or Star Wars newsgroups
where they constantly debate whose spaceships are
better. Grow up.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey)
alt.atheism atheist/agnostic list #1
alt.atheism atheist/agnostic list name collector
BAAWA Knight Who Says SPONG!
EAC Bible thumper thumper
http://questioner.www2.50megs.com
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
.
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
01 Mar 2004 09:03:59 PM |
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In article <9IadnUIBBIched7d4p2dnA@comcast.com>,
says...
"boomboom badoom" <no_email@no_email.ca> wrote in message
news:IwN0c.2977$i_2.32225@news20.bellglobal.com...
I think Jesus was a lot tougher than Moses. If these two were to battle it
out, Jesus would win every time...
According to the myths, Jesus was a god wearing a
human suit and Moses was just a man.
Yes, and moses didn't start leading until he was 80 years old. At
various points moses is described as being feeble. By contrast Jesus was
in his thirties.
Did you
really think you were telling anyone anything new?
No, it's just some moron sounding off about nonsense.
This would be a stupid thing to ague about. And,
these aren't Star Trek or Star Wars newsgroups
where they constantly debate whose spaceships are
better.
Point taken, but that's because I think we all know that a Klingon B'Rel
Class Bird of Prey was by far the most bad-***** ship out there :)))))
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
01 Mar 2004 11:51:52 PM |
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"quibbler" <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1aada78df037088898a3f3@news.individual.net...
In article <9IadnUIBBIched7d4p2dnA@comcast.com>,
says...
"boomboom badoom" <no_email@no_email.ca> wrote in message
news:IwN0c.2977$i_2.32225@news20.bellglobal.com...
I think Jesus was a lot tougher than Moses. If these two were to
battle it
out, Jesus would win every time...
According to the myths, Jesus was a god wearing a
human suit and Moses was just a man.
Yes, and moses didn't start leading until he was 80 years old. At
various points moses is described as being feeble. By contrast Jesus was
in his thirties.
Did you
really think you were telling anyone anything new?
No, it's just some moron sounding off about nonsense.
This would be a stupid thing to ague about. And,
these aren't Star Trek or Star Wars newsgroups
where they constantly debate whose spaceships are
better.
Point taken, but that's because I think we all know that a Klingon B'Rel
Class Bird of Prey was by far the most bad-***** ship out there :)))))
I'll take the Millenium Falcon anyday - greatest hunk of junk in any galaxy.
(Except when I'm more in a Liberator mood.) ;-)
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey)
alt.atheism atheist/agnostic list #1
alt.atheism atheist/agnostic list name collector
BAAWA Knight Who Says SPONG!
EAC Bible thumper thumper
http://questioner.www2.50megs.com
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
01 Mar 2004 11:55:33 PM |
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"quibbler" <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1aada78df037088898a3f3@news.individual.net...
In article <9IadnUIBBIched7d4p2dnA@comcast.com>,
says...
"boomboom badoom" <no_email@no_email.ca> wrote in message
news:IwN0c.2977$i_2.32225@news20.bellglobal.com...
I think Jesus was a lot tougher than Moses. If these two were to
battle it
out, Jesus would win every time...
According to the myths, Jesus was a god wearing a
human suit and Moses was just a man.
Yes, and moses didn't start leading until he was 80 years old. At
various points moses is described as being feeble. By contrast Jesus was
in his thirties.
Did you
really think you were telling anyone anything new?
No, it's just some moron sounding off about nonsense.
This would be a stupid thing to ague about. And,
these aren't Star Trek or Star Wars newsgroups
where they constantly debate whose spaceships are
better.
Point taken, but that's because I think we all know that a Klingon B'Rel
Class Bird of Prey was by far the most bad-***** ship out there :)))))
Ooops! I forgot to mention that I like the original Birds of Prey from
the original ST best, too.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
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| User: "coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
01 Mar 2004 01:58:27 PM |
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In article <5583c94f.0403011146.29c2b01f@posting.google.com>,
(blondie) wrote:
ebert and others have pointed out that Passion isn't antisemitic
because it shows that Jesus expected to die. so the killer of christ
was christ himself and his pappy God.
that movie is called jesus christ superstar
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| User: "blondie" |
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| Title: Re: did jesus really kill himself? |
01 Mar 2004 07:09:37 PM |
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coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges <mair_fheal@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<mair_fheal-04D84E.11582701032004@corp.supernews.com>...
In article <5583c94f.0403011146.29c2b01f@posting.google.com>,
ilbuono2@hotmail.com (blondie) wrote:
ebert and others have pointed out that Passion isn't antisemitic
because it shows that Jesus expected to die. so the killer of christ
was christ himself and his pappy God.
that movie is called jesus christ superstar
i thought they killed him in that one because he couldn't sing.
judas turned him in cuz :'why that white boy who can't sing and gots
no rhythm be the son of god while i be judas?'
.
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: yes, jesus is really responsible for his own death |
01 Mar 2004 02:42:44 PM |
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In article <5583c94f.0403011146.29c2b01f@posting.google.com>,
ilbuono2@hotmail.com says...
ebert and others have pointed out that Passion isn't antisemitic
because it shows that Jesus expected to die.
He not only thought that it was his fate, but he refused to do anything
effective to prevent it. For example, when Jesus was in front of the
Sanhedrin, he could have worked the same sort of miracles that he
allegedly performed on other occasions. That might have convinced them
that was at least a prophet or "man of god". However, Jesus refused to
do this. Jesus should have used his powers to avoid arrest or escape
from prison or any number of other things that it took to convince the
jews. But the fact is that Jesus never existed and never had any of the
magical powers which the gospel bedtime stories claim. Nobody killed
jesus because he wasn't real. The Jews have been framed with killing a
guy who was nothing but a work of fiction.
so the killer of christ
was christ himself and his pappy God.
but, isn't this suicide? isn't suicide sinful?
It's not always clear. Certain biblical figures either commit the
equivalent of suicide or they ask others to kill them. It would probably
be helpful if people quoted some of the specific Jewish and Xian
religious injunctions against suicide.
but, more importantly, i think such argument murks up the moral issue.
let's say an idealistic and courageous priest in sicily working for
the poor decides to stand up the local mafia goons. he fully
understands there's a good chance he'll be killed. he even EXPECTS it,
perhaps desires it.
Obviously no analogy can be perfect, but in the case of Jesus, the guy
didn't just suspect that he would be killed. He must have absolutely
known that it would happen. Also, Jesus had the power to prevent himself
from dying or even being captured and yet he allowed it anyway. In that
case the death of Jesus is more like the death of Socrates, who refuses
to escape, even though he could. But it would have to include the added
twist that Socrates be in his thirties and have the ability to summon
divine powers to testify on his behalf at his trial.
let's say he pushes forward with his actions and
gets killed. does this make the killers of priest innocent or
un-guilty?
But that's not an appropriate comparison on another dimension. The high
priests, despite some of their failings were not evil mafia members.
They thought that they were keeping torah. Jesus stated in their
presence that he believed himself to be god. That was clearly something
that was punishable by death according to their religious laws. If Jesus
was going to make that statement then he damn sure better back it up with
some impressive pyrotechnics. If he doesn't then these people would be
justified, at least according to the code that Jews lived by, to treat
him as a blasphemer. It would at least be like calling the mafia don's
wife a *****. If you say it then you better at least be ready to prove
it.
can they say in the court of law that they are not guilty
since the priest expected to be martyred?
If a court sentences a man to be punished, based on the best available
evidence then they can at least say that they didn't know any better.
Contrary to the popular nostrum, ignorance can be an excuse if it was not
possible to know otherwise at the time. Jesus knew what he had to do to
convince these people that he was a man of god, but he failed to do so.
Therefore, he is the one who failed in his duty to protect his own life.
whether jesus expected to die or not, it seems to me those who killed
him are still responsible.
Sure, but only in the same way that you would be responsible for murder
if I wired my doorbell up to a Kevorkian machine and you came by and
unwittingly pushed the button.
if i leave a watch on the table expecting
it to be stolen, the person who steals it is still a thief.
But not if you put a sign there that says "free watch". In the case of
jesus he made extraordinary claims which he knew would result in his life
being forfeit if he did not back them up. His decision to not back them
up was tantamount to wearing around a "please kill me" sign and he knew
it.
i may be
stupid for having done so but it still makes the guy who took it a
criminal.
The situation is not equivalent. Jesus had committed many violations of
Torah. He had broken the sabbath, violated purity laws, attempted to
amend torah, declared himself to be a prophet, rejected the leadership
the levitical leadership established by torah any many other things. It
was not inappropriate under Jewish law to try him or to convict him.
Even though the gospel describes a jewish mob bringing Jesus to Pilate
they had already tried him under their law and therefore they were not
acting as criminals.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
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| User: "coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges" |
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| Title: Re: yes, jesus is really responsible for his own death |
01 Mar 2004 03:26:38 PM |
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jews. But the fact is that Jesus never existed and never had any of the
magical powers which the gospel bedtime stories claim. Nobody killed
jesus because he wasn't real. The Jews have been framed with killing a
guy who was nothing but a work of fiction.
lucky we have people like you here with all the facts
you do have objective evidence backing up your facts?
just checking
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| User: "J.R." |
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| Title: Re: yes, jesus is really responsible for his own death |
03 Mar 2004 12:52:50 AM |
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coyotes rand mair fheal greykitten tomys des anges <mair_fheal@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<mair_fheal-EDCACE.13263801032004@corp.supernews.com>...
jews. But the fact is that Jesus never existed and never had any of the
magical powers which the gospel bedtime stories claim. Nobody killed
jesus because he wasn't real. The Jews have been framed with killing a
guy who was nothing but a work of fiction.
lucky we have people like you here with all the facts
you do have objective evidence backing up your facts?
just checking
You guys are looking at this as if Jesus didn't want to be hung on the
cross.
Just the opposite is the case. He planned the whole thing from the
time that Lazarus was mistaken for dead when he overdosed on some kind
of poison. I believe that the bible called it Bile.
Everything after that was aimed at creating the big show for the
biggest crowd (passover).
Judas turned Jesus in because Jesus asked him to. It was the only way
that Jesus could insure that he was hung on the cross and taken down
befor passover.
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| User: "Binyamin Dissen" |
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| Title: Re: yes, jesus is really responsible for his own death |
01 Mar 2004 03:21:13 PM |
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On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:42:44 -0700 quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
:>In article <5583c94f.0403011146.29c2b01f@posting.google.com>,
:>ilbuono2@hotmail.com says...
:>> ebert and others have pointed out that Passion isn't antisemitic
:>> because it shows that Jesus expected to die.
:>He not only thought that it was his fate, but he refused to do anything
:>effective to prevent it. For example, when Jesus was in front of the
:>Sanhedrin, he could have worked the same sort of miracles that he
:>allegedly performed on other occasions. That might have convinced them
:>that was at least a prophet or "man of god".
That would have no evidentiary value in a Jewish court.
I cannot think of any charge where performing a miracle would change anything.
[ snipped ]
:>> let's say he pushes forward with his actions and
:>> gets killed. does this make the killers of priest innocent or
:>> un-guilty?
:>But that's not an appropriate comparison on another dimension. The high
:>priests, despite some of their failings were not evil mafia members.
The High Priest is not a member of the court.
:>They thought that they were keeping torah. Jesus stated in their
:>presence that he believed himself to be god. That was clearly something
:>that was punishable by death according to their religious laws.
Not according to any Jewish law that I am aware of.
:> If Jesus
:>was going to make that statement then he damn sure better back it up with
:>some impressive pyrotechnics. If he doesn't then these people would be
:>justified, at least according to the code that Jews lived by, to treat
:>him as a blasphemer.
Calling ones self a god is not blasphemy (in Jewish Law).
:> It would at least be like calling the mafia don's
:>wife a *****. If you say it then you better at least be ready to prove
:>it.
:>> can they say in the court of law that they are not guilty
:>> since the priest expected to be martyred?
:>If a court sentences a man to be punished, based on the best available
:>evidence then they can at least say that they didn't know any better.
:>Contrary to the popular nostrum, ignorance can be an excuse if it was not
:>possible to know otherwise at the time.
In the vast majority of criminal cases in Jewish Law the court is not
impartial. The court is expected to try to find the defendant innocent. It
will advance any argument that the defendant could have given.
:> Jesus knew what he had to do to
:>convince these people that he was a man of god, but he failed to do so.
:>Therefore, he is the one who failed in his duty to protect his own life.
A miracle should not have effected the decision of a Jewish court.
[ snipped ]
--
Binyamin Dissen <bdissen@dissensoftware.com>
http://www.dissensoftware.com
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: yes, jesus is really responsible for his own death |
01 Mar 2004 08:54:36 PM |
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In article <5r9740hogvivks93ms1tp6uortjenbb701@4ax.com>,
postingid@dissensoftware.com says...
On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 13:42:44 -0700 quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote:
:>In article <5583c94f.0403011146.29c2b01f@posting.google.com>,
:>ilbuono2@hotmail.com says...
:>> ebert and others have pointed out that Passion isn't antisemitic
:>> because it shows that Jesus expected to die.
:>He not only thought that it was his fate, but he refused to do anything
:>effective to prevent it. For example, when Jesus was in front of the
:>Sanhedrin, he could have worked the same sort of miracles that he
:>allegedly performed on other occasions. That might have convinced them
:>that was at least a prophet or "man of god".
That would have no evidentiary value in a Jewish court.
Excuse me but what the ***** are you talking about? If you performed a
miracle in any court, jewish or otherwise it would almost certainly have
an effect. It would be especially relevant if one claimed to be god's
annointed. Producing evidence to support that would probably be quite
helpful. At various points in the old testament prophets made
demonstrations of their powers. So it would certainly carry weight.
I cannot think of any charge where performing a miracle would change anything.
So if you made a booming voice come out of heaven and say, "This is my
son, lay the heck off him" then I suppose they would rule god out of
order, like the old joke goes?
[ snipped ]
:>> let's say he pushes forward with his actions and
:>> gets killed. does this make the killers of priest innocent or
:>> un-guilty?
:>But that's not an appropriate comparison on another dimension. The high
:>priests, despite some of their failings were not evil mafia members.
The High Priest is not a member of the court.
You might be right, but Matt 26:57 is titled "Before the Sanhedrin" and
says, "Those who had arrested Jesus took him to Caiaphas, the high
priest, where the teachers of the law and the elders had assembled."
:>They thought that they were keeping torah. Jesus stated in their
:>presence that he believed himself to be god. That was clearly something
:>that was punishable by death according to their religious laws.
Not according to any Jewish law that I am aware of.
Again, maybe you're right, but according to Matthew 26:65 it says, "Then
the high priest tore his clothes and said, 'He has spoken blasphemy! Why
do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.
66What do you think?' 'He is worthy of death,' they answered."
:> If Jesus
:>was going to make that statement then he damn sure better back it up with
:>some impressive pyrotechnics. If he doesn't then these people would be
:>justified, at least according to the code that Jews lived by, to treat
:>him as a blasphemer.
Calling ones self a god is not blasphemy (in Jewish Law).
At one point the jews were probably henotheistic. However, the theology
at the time of jesus would be closer to monotheism. Jesus had made
statements such as, "Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58) and that
statement was deemed worthy, by the people hearing it, of immediately
attempting to stone him.
:> It would at least be like calling the mafia don's
:>wife a *****. If you say it then you better at least be ready to prove
:>it.
:>> can they say in the court of law that they are not guilty
:>> since the priest expected to be martyred?
:>If a court sentences a man to be punished, based on the best available
:>evidence then they can at least say that they didn't know any better.
:>Contrary to the popular nostrum, ignorance can be an excuse if it was not
:>possible to know otherwise at the time.
In the vast majority of criminal cases in Jewish Law the court is not
impartial. The court is expected to try to find the defendant innocent. It
will advance any argument that the defendant could have given.
However, Jesus made virtually no argument respecting the charges against
him and very definitely appeared to compound his problem by making
statements that most would have interpreted as blasphemy if not provable.
:> Jesus knew what he had to do to
:>convince these people that he was a man of god, but he failed to do so.
:>Therefore, he is the one who failed in his duty to protect his own life.
A miracle should not have effected the decision of a Jewish court.
It's nice that you think that, but given your rather spotty record to far
I'm not going to place a lot of stock in your conjectures.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: yes, jesus is really responsible for his own death |
01 Mar 2004 11:40:56 PM |
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"quibbler" <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1aada53e6d353fe998a3f2@news.individual.net...
In article <5r9740hogvivks93ms1tp6uortjenbb701@4ax.com>,
postingid@dissensoftware.com says...
The High Priest is not a member of the court.
You might be right, but Matt 26:57 is titled "Before the Sanhedrin" and
says, "Those who had arrested Jesus took him to Caiaphas, the high
priest, where the teachers of the law and the elders had assembled."
You're presuming that just because it was written that it makes it so.
:>They thought that they were keeping torah. Jesus stated in their
:>presence that he believed himself to be god. That was clearly
something
:>that was punishable by death according to their religious laws.
Not according to any Jewish law that I am aware of.
Again, maybe you're right, but according to Matthew 26:65 it says, "Then
the high priest tore his clothes and said, 'He has spoken blasphemy! Why
do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.
66What do you think?' 'He is worthy of death,' they answered."
You're presuming that just because it was written that it makes it so.
:> If
Jesus
:>was going to make that statement then he damn sure better back it up
with
:>some impressive pyrotechnics. If he doesn't then these people would
be
:>justified, at least according to the code that Jews lived by, to treat
:>him as a blasphemer.
Calling ones self a god is not blasphemy (in Jewish Law).
At one point the jews were probably henotheistic. However, the theology
at the time of jesus would be closer to monotheism. Jesus had made
statements such as, "Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58) and that
statement was deemed worthy, by the people hearing it, of immediately
attempting to stone him.
You're presuming that just because it was written that it makes it so.
Susan
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| User: "Iskandar Baharuddin" |
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| Title: Re: yes, jesus is really responsible for his own death |
01 Mar 2004 11:48:59 PM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:I7V0c.22549$C65.11618@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
|
| "quibbler" <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| news:MPG.1aada53e6d353fe998a3f2@news.individual.net...
snip
| > At one point the jews were probably henotheistic.
However, the theology
| > at the time of jesus would be closer to monotheism.
Jesus had made
| > statements such as, "Before Abraham was, I am." (John
8:58) and that
| > statement was deemed worthy, by the people hearing it,
of immediately
| > attempting to stone him.
I had to look up "henotheistic". Perhaps it is a belief that
we should all accept.
Izzy
snip
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: yes, jesus is really responsible for his own death |
02 Mar 2004 02:05:49 PM |
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In article <40442048$1@news.highway1.com.au>,
says...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:I7V0c.22549$C65.11618@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
|
| "quibbler" <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote in message
| news:MPG.1aada53e6d353fe998a3f2@news.individual.net...
snip
| > At one point the jews were probably henotheistic.
However, the theology
| > at the time of jesus would be closer to monotheism.
Jesus had made
| > statements such as, "Before Abraham was, I am." (John
8:58) and that
| > statement was deemed worthy, by the people hearing it,
of immediately
| > attempting to stone him.
I had to look up "henotheistic". Perhaps it is a belief that
we should all accept.
I doubt atheists would accept it, but otherwise, I guess it's ok :)
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
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| User: "zach" |
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| Title: Re: yes, jesus is really responsible for his own death |
02 Mar 2004 02:43:43 PM |
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"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<I7V0c.22549$C65.11618@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
"quibbler" <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1aada53e6d353fe998a3f2@news.individual.net...
In article <5r9740hogvivks93ms1tp6uortjenbb701@4ax.com>,
postingid@dissensoftware.com says...
The High Priest is not a member of the court.
You might be right, but Matt 26:57 is titled "Before the Sanhedrin" and
says, "Those who had arrested Jesus took him to Caiaphas, the high
priest, where the teachers of the law and the elders had assembled."
You're presuming that just because it was written that it makes it so.
:>They thought that they were keeping torah. Jesus stated in their
:>presence that he believed himself to be god. That was clearly
something
:>that was punishable by death according to their religious laws.
Not according to any Jewish law that I am aware of.
Again, maybe you're right, but according to Matthew 26:65 it says, "Then
the high priest tore his clothes and said, 'He has spoken blasphemy! Why
do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.
66What do you think?' 'He is worthy of death,' they answered."
You're presuming that just because it was written that it makes it so.
:> If
Jesus
:>was going to make that statement then he damn sure better back it up
with
:>some impressive pyrotechnics. If he doesn't then these people would
be
:>justified, at least according to the code that Jews lived by, to treat
:>him as a blasphemer.
Calling ones self a god is not blasphemy (in Jewish Law).
At one point the jews were probably henotheistic. However, the theology
at the time of jesus would be closer to monotheism. Jesus had made
statements such as, "Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58) and that
statement was deemed worthy, by the people hearing it, of immediately
attempting to stone him.
You're presuming that just because it was written that it makes it so.
Of COURSE he's presuming it was as it was written _within the context
of the argument_, otherwise there wouldn't be an argument.
.
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| User: "Susan Cohen" |
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| Title: Re: yes, jesus is really responsible for his own death |
02 Mar 2004 10:38:59 PM |
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"zach" <victorthecleaner@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:f7fbe28c.0403021243.23fbe28@posting.google.com...
"Susan Cohen" <flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:<I7V0c.22549$C65.11618@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
You're presuming that just because it was written that it makes it so.
Of COURSE he's presuming it was as it was written _within the context
of the argument_, otherwise there wouldn't be an argument.
& having discovered this aspect, I hereby withdraw from the discussion.
Thank you also for clearing this up.
Susan
.
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: yes, jesus is really responsible for his own death |
02 Mar 2004 09:29:21 AM |
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In article <I7V0c.22549$C65.11618@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
flaviaR@verizon.net says...
"quibbler" <quibbler247@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1aada53e6d353fe998a3f2@news.individual.net...
In article <5r9740hogvivks93ms1tp6uortjenbb701@4ax.com>,
postingid@dissensoftware.com says...
The High Priest is not a member of the court.
You might be right, but Matt 26:57 is titled "Before the Sanhedrin" and
says, "Those who had arrested Jesus took him to Caiaphas, the high
priest, where the teachers of the law and the elders had assembled."
You're presuming that just because it was written that it makes it so.
:>They thought that they were keeping torah. Jesus stated in their
:>presence that he believed himself to be god. That was clearly
something
:>that was punishable by death according to their religious laws.
Not according to any Jewish law that I am aware of.
Again, maybe you're right, but according to Matthew 26:65 it says, "Then
the high priest tore his clothes and said, 'He has spoken blasphemy! Why
do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.
66What do you think?' 'He is worthy of death,' they answered."
You're presuming that just because it was written that it makes it so.
:> If
Jesus
:>was going to make that statement then he damn sure better back it up
with
:>some impressive pyrotechnics. If he doesn't then these people would
be
:>justified, at least according to the code that Jews lived by, to treat
:>him as a blasphemer.
Calling ones self a god is not blasphemy (in Jewish Law).
At one point the jews were probably henotheistic. However, the theology
at the time of jesus would be closer to monotheism. Jesus had made
statements such as, "Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58) and that
statement was deemed worthy, by the people hearing it, of immediately
attempting to stone him.
You're presuming that just because it was written that it makes it so.
No, I'm not. I took great pains to emphasize tht this is merely what the
gospels say. I don't actually presume that it must be accurate. In
fact, there are many cases where I'm pretty sure the gospels are wrong.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.
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