| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Khubla" |
| Date: |
28 Dec 2005 08:50:16 AM |
| Object: |
DID MOSES AND THE EXODUS EXIST?....WELL NO, NOT REALLY |
DID MOSES AND THE EXODUS EXIST?
Moses, the law giver to the ancient Jews and founder of the first Jewish
state was certainly a fictions character based on numerous historical facts
and logical reasoning. We all know the biblical story of the Jews in Egypt,
their plight to escape, and their wandering in the Sinai for 40 years so I
won't repeat that here. There are numerous reasons and facts for
discounting this story as being true and I shall discuss some briefly.
(1) God kills the first born males in every Egyptian family. This would
have made news in every country in the known world yet nothing is told
outside the OT and Torah, which makes up the 1st 5 books of the OT. Egypt
was the center of learning and trade at this time, the greatest of all
Western and Middle Eastern civilizations yet no one every heard this story
outside the Bible.
(2) The parting of the (Suez) waters is discounted by most Biblical
scholars as false. Many will say they (the Jews) escaped through the Marsh
of Reeds as this removes the miracle thus making it more believable.
However it doesn't explain the drowning of the Egyptian Army as claimed in
the OT. One would assume the Egyptians could go where the Jews fled.
(3) Thousand of Jews wandering in the Sinai for 40 years in a land where
today, as then, it can only support a handful of Bedouins at one time. No
realistic source of water, food, fire material for cooking, indeed nothing
much in the way of supporting life yet thousands supposedly lived there for
40 years. No replenishment of clothes, tents, tools, etc. We can also
point out they left no archeological evidence of their having been there,
nothing.
(4) Etymology is the study of the origin of words and any Ethnologist
will tell you that no two people with different languages can live together,
for even a short time without words from each language becoming a part of
the other language. Yet after the Jews were supposedly in Egypt for 400
years there are no Egyptian words in the Hebrew language and no Hebrew words
in the Egyptian language. None.
(5) Finally it should be noted that there is no mention of Moses outside
the OT. None in Egyptian records or anywhere else.
Clearly Moses and the Egyptian exodus is a metaphor for strife, struggle,
overcoming hardships and ultimate success against great hardships. It
should not be taken as an actual historic fact for the same reason as Johna
and the whale, Noah and the Ark, and some other OT stories.
There will be some, mostly fundamentalist who will insist on the literal
reading of the Bible but they do themselves and their god a disservice by
doing so. Jehovah throughout the bible is portrayed as being narcissistic,
short tempered, and extremely cruel. Other then the creation of Hell in the
NT, the slaughter of all the first born male children in Egypt ranks as the
second greatest tragedy of the Bible, and elevates this deity to the realm
of a homicidal psychopath. Perhaps the greatest mass murderer portrayed in
human history. Now a god should be at least as good as the people who
worship him and Jehovah fails this test miserably. To embrace a literal
interpretation of the Bible then one must accept a monster for their god.
As have often been said, the Devil never committed half the atrocities in
the Bible as Jehovah. It is far better to recognize the Bible for what it
is, the work of ignorant people over many centuries and allow any deities
therein to take a higher ground. Better yet to relegate all so called holy
books to the waste bin of history and move out from under this cloud of
superstition altogether.
Emmert Elsea
.
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| User: "Lee" |
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| Title: Re: DID MOSES AND THE EXODUS EXIST?....WELL NO, NOT REALLY |
28 Dec 2005 10:35:37 AM |
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"Khubla" <khubla@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:QpadnWUWZb59OC_enZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@adelphia.com...
DID MOSES AND THE EXODUS EXIST?
Moses, the law giver to the ancient Jews and founder of the first Jewish
state was certainly a fictions character based on numerous historical
facts
and logical reasoning. We all know the biblical story of the Jews in
Egypt,
their plight to escape, and their wandering in the Sinai for 40 years so I
won't repeat that here. There are numerous reasons and facts for
discounting this story as being true and I shall discuss some briefly.
<snip>
Emmert Elsea
I like it. Good to see critical thinking skills at work. Thanks.
.
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| User: "Ike" |
|
| Title: Re: DID MOSES AND THE EXODUS EXIST?....WELL NO, NOT REALLY |
28 Dec 2005 09:27:10 AM |
|
|
"Khubla" <khubla@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:QpadnWUWZb59OC_enZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@adelphia.com...
DID MOSES AND THE EXODUS EXIST?
Moses, the law giver to the ancient Jews and founder of the first Jewish
state was certainly a fictions character based on numerous historical
facts and logical reasoning. We all know the biblical story of the Jews
in Egypt, their plight to escape, and their wandering in the Sinai for 40
years so I won't repeat that here. There are numerous reasons and facts
for discounting this story as being true and I shall discuss some briefly.
(1) God kills the first born males in every Egyptian family. This
would have made news in every country in the known world yet nothing is
told outside the OT and Torah, which makes up the 1st 5 books of the OT.
Egypt was the center of learning and trade at this time, the greatest of
all Western and Middle Eastern civilizations yet no one every heard this
story outside the Bible.
(2) The parting of the (Suez) waters is discounted by most Biblical
scholars as false. Many will say they (the Jews) escaped through the
Marsh of Reeds as this removes the miracle thus making it more believable.
However it doesn't explain the drowning of the Egyptian Army as claimed in
the OT. One would assume the Egyptians could go where the Jews fled.
(3) Thousand of Jews wandering in the Sinai for 40 years in a land
where today, as then, it can only support a handful of Bedouins at one
time. No realistic source of water, food, fire material for cooking,
indeed nothing much in the way of supporting life yet thousands supposedly
lived there for 40 years. No replenishment of clothes, tents, tools, etc.
We can also point out they left no archeological evidence of their having
been there, nothing.
(4) Etymology is the study of the origin of words and any Ethnologist
will tell you that no two people with different languages can live
together, for even a short time without words from each language becoming
a part of the other language. Yet after the Jews were supposedly in Egypt
for 400 years there are no Egyptian words in the Hebrew language and no
Hebrew words in the Egyptian language. None.
(5) Finally it should be noted that there is no mention of Moses
outside the OT. None in Egyptian records or anywhere else.
Clearly Moses and the Egyptian exodus is a metaphor for strife, struggle,
overcoming hardships and ultimate success against great hardships. It
should not be taken as an actual historic fact for the same reason as
Johna and the whale, Noah and the Ark, and some other OT stories.
There will be some, mostly fundamentalist who will insist on the literal
reading of the Bible but they do themselves and their god a disservice by
doing so. Jehovah throughout the bible is portrayed as being
narcissistic, short tempered, and extremely cruel. Other then the
creation of Hell in the NT, the slaughter of all the first born male
children in Egypt ranks as the second greatest tragedy of the Bible, and
elevates this deity to the realm of a homicidal psychopath. Perhaps the
greatest mass murderer portrayed in human history. Now a god should be
at least as good as the people who worship him and Jehovah fails this test
miserably. To embrace a literal interpretation of the Bible then one must
accept a monster for their god. As have often been said, the Devil never
committed half the atrocities in the Bible as Jehovah. It is far better
to recognize the Bible for what it is, the work of ignorant people over
many centuries and allow any deities therein to take a higher ground.
Better yet to relegate all so called holy books to the waste bin of
history and move out from under this cloud of superstition altogether.
Emmert Elsea
Still trying to make a silk purse fom a sows' ear, so to speak. All you
mealy-mouthed religionists are trying to salvage some kind of truth from a
bunch of ethnic fascist Hebrew junk. Of course it was a miracle. A miracle
is defined as a lie.
.
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: DID MOSES AND THE EXODUS EXIST?....WELL NO, NOT REALLY |
28 Dec 2005 11:34:29 AM |
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Your not reading very perceptively. Read it again. He is not promoting a
religious belief. He is denying the veracity of the Bibles.
"Ike" <accordiondocxyzxyzxyz@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:i9ysf.11008$nm.2967@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
"Khubla" <khubla@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:QpadnWUWZb59OC_enZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@adelphia.com...
DID MOSES AND THE EXODUS EXIST?
Moses, the law giver to the ancient Jews and founder of the first Jewish
state was certainly a fictions character based on numerous historical
facts and logical reasoning. We all know the biblical story of the Jews
in Egypt, their plight to escape, and their wandering in the Sinai for 40
years so I won't repeat that here. There are numerous reasons and facts
for discounting this story as being true and I shall discuss some
briefly.
(1) God kills the first born males in every Egyptian family. This
would have made news in every country in the known world yet nothing is
told outside the OT and Torah, which makes up the 1st 5 books of the OT.
Egypt was the center of learning and trade at this time, the greatest of
all Western and Middle Eastern civilizations yet no one every heard this
story outside the Bible.
(2) The parting of the (Suez) waters is discounted by most Biblical
scholars as false. Many will say they (the Jews) escaped through the
Marsh of Reeds as this removes the miracle thus making it more
believable. However it doesn't explain the drowning of the Egyptian Army
as claimed in the OT. One would assume the Egyptians could go where the
Jews fled.
(3) Thousand of Jews wandering in the Sinai for 40 years in a land
where today, as then, it can only support a handful of Bedouins at one
time. No realistic source of water, food, fire material for cooking,
indeed nothing much in the way of supporting life yet thousands
supposedly lived there for 40 years. No replenishment of clothes, tents,
tools, etc. We can also point out they left no archeological evidence of
their having been there, nothing.
(4) Etymology is the study of the origin of words and any Ethnologist
will tell you that no two people with different languages can live
together, for even a short time without words from each language becoming
a part of the other language. Yet after the Jews were supposedly in
Egypt for 400 years there are no Egyptian words in the Hebrew language
and no Hebrew words in the Egyptian language. None.
(5) Finally it should be noted that there is no mention of Moses
outside the OT. None in Egyptian records or anywhere else.
Clearly Moses and the Egyptian exodus is a metaphor for strife, struggle,
overcoming hardships and ultimate success against great hardships. It
should not be taken as an actual historic fact for the same reason as
Johna and the whale, Noah and the Ark, and some other OT stories.
There will be some, mostly fundamentalist who will insist on the literal
reading of the Bible but they do themselves and their god a disservice by
doing so. Jehovah throughout the bible is portrayed as being
narcissistic, short tempered, and extremely cruel. Other then the
creation of Hell in the NT, the slaughter of all the first born male
children in Egypt ranks as the second greatest tragedy of the Bible, and
elevates this deity to the realm of a homicidal psychopath. Perhaps the
greatest mass murderer portrayed in human history. Now a god should be
at least as good as the people who worship him and Jehovah fails this
test miserably. To embrace a literal interpretation of the Bible then
one must accept a monster for their god. As have often been said, the
Devil never committed half the atrocities in the Bible as Jehovah. It is
far better to recognize the Bible for what it is, the work of ignorant
people over many centuries and allow any deities therein to take a higher
ground. Better yet to relegate all so called holy books to the waste bin
of history and move out from under this cloud of superstition altogether.
Emmert Elsea
Still trying to make a silk purse fom a sows' ear, so to speak. All you
mealy-mouthed religionists are trying to salvage some kind of truth from a
bunch of ethnic fascist Hebrew junk. Of course it was a miracle. A
miracle is defined as a lie.
.
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: DID MOSES AND THE EXODUS EXIST?....WELL NO, NOT REALLY |
28 Dec 2005 09:51:15 PM |
|
|
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:e_zsf.69598$k76.69422@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
Your not reading very perceptively. Read it again. He is not promoting a
religious belief. He is denying the veracity of the Bibles.
The article seems to be peddling a less offensive version of religion. It's
still religion.
.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: DID MOSES AND THE EXODUS EXIST?....WELL NO, NOT REALLY |
28 Dec 2005 11:19:17 AM |
|
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Khubla wrote:
DID MOSES AND THE EXODUS EXIST?
Moses, the law giver to the ancient Jews and founder of the first
Jewish state was certainly a fictions character based on numerous
historical facts
and logical reasoning. We all know the biblical story of the Jews
in Egypt, their plight to escape, and their wandering in the Sinai
for 40 years so I
won't repeat that here. There are numerous reasons and facts for
discounting this story as being true and I shall discuss some
briefly.
(1) God kills the first born males in every Egyptian family.
This would have made news in every country in the known world yet
nothing is told
outside the OT and Torah, which makes up the 1st 5 books of the OT.
Egypt was the center of learning and trade at this time, the
greatest of all Western and Middle Eastern civilizations yet no one
every heard this story outside the Bible.
(2) The parting of the (Suez) waters is discounted by most
Biblical
scholars as false. Many will say they (the Jews) escaped through
the Marsh of Reeds as this removes the miracle thus making it more
believable. However it doesn't explain the drowning of the Egyptian
Army as claimed in
the OT. One would assume the Egyptians could go where the Jews
fled.
Exodus claims Moses led the exodus from Zoan, that
is Tanis. The problem is that Zoan was a new city
that could not have existed then, as it was only created
in the 26th dynasty. Zoan is in the far North of Egypt,
about 1000 miles from the Red Sea. The writer of this
nonsense knew little history or geography.
(3) Thousand of Jews wandering in the Sinai for 40 years in a
land where
today, as then, it can only support a handful of Bedouins at one
time. No realistic source of water, food, fire material for
cooking, indeed nothing much in the way of supporting life yet
thousands supposedly lived there for
40 years. No replenishment of clothes, tents, tools, etc. We can
also point out they left no archeological evidence of their having
been there, nothing.
There were in fact two archaeological expeditions
that looked for signs of encampments where the
bible said there should be. Supposedly, they
camped out at Kadesh Barnea for 36 years or so.
This area has teh only appreciable water in the area.
Nothing was found. 36 years of camping would have
left trash middens, ash pits, hearths, broken pottery,
animal bones, graves, stone enclosures and walls
for homes and animal corals, et al.
Nothing at all was found.
(4) Etymology is the study of the origin of words and any
Ethnologist will tell you that no two people with different
languages can live together, for even a short time without words
from each language becoming a part of
the other language. Yet after the Jews were supposedly in Egypt for
400 years there are no Egyptian words in the Hebrew language and no
Hebrew words
in the Egyptian language. None.
There are a few, but about what you would expect
from people who lived near a large and powerful
neighbor. Israel adopted Egyptian weights for
example. But this is right. Israel started
alledgedly from 70 sheperds who went to Egypt
and emerged 430 years later with 2 1/2 million
peoples.
But Israel is a typical Canaanite language with
few Egyptianisms you'd expect from above.
There are no signs of Egyptian writing in Israel,
which you'd expect them to pick up over 430 years.
Nor architecture, pottery styles, or anything else.
They are typical Canaanites all the way.
(5) Finally it should be noted that there is no mention of Moses
outside
the OT. None in Egyptian records or anywhere else.
Egypt had many foreigners, their names and gods
are found in Egypt in profusion. But Yahweh is
not mentioned, nor are any Israelite names despite
supposedly being enslaved in massive numbers four
centuries.
Nubian trops were used as police in Egypt, and moved
around to prevent them getting too freindly with
any one village. They are well attested to, to the
point that Sanjay, the name of the Nubian tribe
that mainly provided such troops became the Egyptian
slang term for policeman.
Things like this are well known in Egypt, Baal,
the Canaanite war god was popular in the Egyptian
army and to Baal somebody was to defeat them in battle.
Israelites supposedly numerous for centuries leave no
traces in popular Egyptian culture despite such things
being common.
Clearly Moses and the Egyptian exodus is a metaphor for strife,
struggle,
overcoming hardships and ultimate success against great hardships.
It should not be taken as an actual historic fact for the same
reason as Johna and the whale, Noah and the Ark, and some other OT
stories.
No, its a claim to ownership of the lands around
Judea. "God gave it to us". Obviously, the
Israelites were seen as pushy newcomers and disruptive.
Ammon, Moab and others saw these new city states
that arose out of the wilderness as oppressive
and problemsome. When their best days were over,
thye needed a rationalization for the continuing
strife in face of these attitudes.
Moses et al was probably distortions of very dim memories
of the times Egypt did control the area and leading
men, chiefs and their sons were taken to Egypt, educated,
and returned to run their cities and states under Egyptian
suzientry.
In the Armana letters, these men are shown to be proud
of their Egyptianess. The area did have Egyptian
connections. Just not what later Israelite writers knew
about it.
These sort of political arrangments and their details
were long forgotten, though they were aware of some
connection.
When Egyptian control of the area faded in the times
of Rameses V and VI, the lightly Egyptianized shieks
were on their own.
There will be some, mostly fundamentalist who will insist on the
literal reading of the Bible but they do themselves and their god a
disservice by
doing so. Jehovah throughout the bible is portrayed as being
narcissistic,
short tempered, and extremely cruel. Other then the creation of
Hell in the NT, the slaughter of all the first born male children in
Egypt ranks as the second greatest tragedy of the Bible, and
elevates this deity to the realm
of a homicidal psychopath. Perhaps the greatest mass murderer
portrayed in
human history. Now a god should be at least as good as the people
who
worship him and Jehovah fails this test miserably. To embrace a
literal interpretation of the Bible then one must accept a monster
for their god. As have often been said, the Devil never committed
half the atrocities in
the Bible as Jehovah. It is far better to recognize the Bible for
what it is, the work of ignorant people over many centuries and
allow any deities
therein to take a higher ground. Better yet to relegate all so
called holy books to the waste bin of history and move out from
under this cloud of superstition altogether.
Emmert Elsea
--
Wassail, Happy Holidays, Merry Solstice, Happy
Saturnalia, mull the wine and pass the eggnog.
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: DID MOSES AND THE EXODUS EXIST?....WELL NO, NOT REALLY |
28 Dec 2005 06:02:43 PM |
|
|
wbarwell wrote:
<snip>
Moses et al was probably distortions of very dim memories
of the times Egypt did control the area and leading
men, chiefs and their sons were taken to Egypt, educated,
and returned to run their cities and states under Egyptian
suzientry.
In the Armana letters, these men are shown to be proud
of their Egyptianess. The area did have Egyptian
connections. Just not what later Israelite writers knew
about it.
These sort of political arrangments and their details
were long forgotten, though they were aware of some
connection.
When Egyptian control of the area faded in the times
of Rameses V and VI, the lightly Egyptianized shieks
were on their own.
This would explain at least one of the "connections"
Egyptians did and Hebrews did not circumsize themselves at the time Moses
allegedly existed.
.
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