| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Andres64" |
| Date: |
21 Oct 2006 09:15:53 PM |
| Object: |
Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq
Oct 21, 10:08 PM (ET)
By HAMZA HENDAWI
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A senior U.S. diplomat said the United States had
shown "arrogance" and "stupidity" in Iraq but was now ready to talk
with any group except Al-Qaida in Iraq to facilitate national
reconciliation.
In an interview with Al-Jazeera television aired late Saturday, Alberto
Fernandez, director of public diplomacy in the Bureau of Near Eastern
Affairs at the State Department offered an unusually candid assessment
of America's war in Iraq.
"We tried to do our best but I think there is much room for criticism
because, undoubtedly, there was arrogance and there was stupidity from
the United States in Iraq," he said.
"We are open to dialogue because we all know that, at the end of the
day, the solution to the hell and the killings in Iraq is linked to an
effective Iraqi national reconciliation," he said, speaking in Arabic
from Washington. "The Iraqi government is convinced of this."
The question of negotiations between the United States and insurgency
factions has repeatedly surfaced over the past two years, but details
have been sketchy. One issue that was often raised in connection with
such negotiations was the extent of amnesty the United States and its
Iraqi allies were willing to offer to the insurgents if they disarmed
and joined the political process.
Fernandez spoke to the Qatar-based Al-Jazeera after a man claiming to
speak for Saddam Hussein's outlawed Baath Party told the network the
United States was seeking a face-saving exodus from Iraq and that
insurgents were ready to negotiate but won't lay down arms.
"Abu Mohammed", a pseudonym for the man, appeared to set near
impossible conditions for the start of any talks with the Americans,
including the return to service of Saddam's armed forces, the annulment
of every law adopted since Saddam's ouster, the recognition of
insurgent groups as the sole representatives of the Iraqi people and a
timetable for a gradual, unconditional withdrawal of U.S. and other
foreign troops in Iraq.
"The occupier has started to search for a face-saving way out. The
resistance, with all its factions, is determined to continue fighting
until the enemy is brought down to his knees and sits on the
negotiating table or is dealt, with God's help, a humiliating defeat,"
he said. The man wore a suit and appeared to be in his 40s but his face
was concealed.
"There is an element of the farcical in that statement," Fernandez said
of Abu Mohammed's comments. "They are very removed from reality."
Still Fernandez warned that failure to pacify the widening sectarian
strife in Iraq as well as an enduring insurgency would damage the
entire Middle East.
"We are witnessing failure in Iraq and that's not the failure of the
United States alone but it is a disaster for the region. Failure in
Iraq will be a failure for the United States but a disaster for the
region."
Although the actual identity of Abu Mohammed remains unknown, the
interview adds to growing indications that Iraq's Sunni insurgents
sense the tide may be turning against the United States and the Iraqi
government it backs.
Fernandez's comments, on the other hand, join a series of sobering
remarks by President Bush and the U.S. military in recent days.
Bush this week conceded that "right now it's tough" for U.S. forces in
Iraq and on Saturday met with his top military and security advisers to
study new tactics to curb the staggering violence in Iraq. Three U.S.
Marines were killed also Saturday, making October the deadliest month
for American forces in Iraq this year.
U.S. military spokesman Maj. Gen. William B. Caldwell said attacks in
Baghdad were up 22 percent in the first three weeks of the holy Muslim
month of Ramadan despite a two-month old U.S.-Iraqi drive to crush
violence in the Iraqi capital.
On Wednesday, and again on Friday, Sunni insurgents believed to belong
to al-Qaida in Iraq, staged military-like parades in the heart of five
towns in the vast and mainly desert province of Anbar, including the
provincial capital Ramadi. Some of these parades, in which hooded
gunmen paraded with their weapons, took place within striking distance
of U.S. forces stationed in nearby bases.
The parades proved to be a propaganda success, with TV footage of
Wednesday's parade shown in many parts of the world, a likely
embarrassment for the U.S. military as well as the embattled Iraqi
government.
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20061022/D8KTD56O0.html
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
21 Oct 2006 09:57:55 PM |
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On 21 Oct 2006 19:15:53 -0700, "Andres64" <andresc64@excite.com>
wrote:
"We tried to do our best but I think there is much room for criticism
because, undoubtedly, there was arrogance and there was stupidity from
the United States in Iraq," he said.
"We are open to dialogue because we all know that, at the end of the
day, the solution to the hell and the killings in Iraq is linked to an
effective Iraqi national reconciliation," he said, speaking in Arabic
from Washington. "The Iraqi government is convinced of this."
I never heard anyone provide such strong proof of his statement in
such a short time.
"an effective Iraqi national reconciliation" has go to be one of the
most arrogant and stupid things our government has ever said about an
artificial "nation" made of 3 groups that definitely don't want to
live anywhere near each other, unless it's to kill one another.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"A truly unselfish act would be a Christian volunteering to have his soul take your
soul's place in hell, so yours could go to Heaven. Don't hold your breath."
- John Popelish
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
22 Oct 2006 01:19:39 AM |
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In article <ednlj2tf6jbsa4j6r3l81kuo3sklqqujjf@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On 21 Oct 2006 19:15:53 -0700, "Andres64" <andresc64@excite.com>
wrote:
"We tried to do our best but I think there is much room for criticism
because, undoubtedly, there was arrogance and there was stupidity from
the United States in Iraq," he said.
"We are open to dialogue because we all know that, at the end of the
day, the solution to the hell and the killings in Iraq is linked to an
effective Iraqi national reconciliation," he said, speaking in Arabic
from Washington. "The Iraqi government is convinced of this."
I never heard anyone provide such strong proof of his statement in
such a short time.
"an effective Iraqi national reconciliation" has go to be one of the
most arrogant and stupid things our government has ever said about an
artificial "nation" made of 3 groups that definitely don't want to
live anywhere near each other, unless it's to kill one another.
It's not surprising when our government officials don't even know the
difference between a Sunni and a Shiite.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=5&article_i
d=76312
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
26 Oct 2006 08:54:30 PM |
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On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 23:19:39 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
In article <ednlj2tf6jbsa4j6r3l81kuo3sklqqujjf@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On 21 Oct 2006 19:15:53 -0700, "Andres64" <andresc64@excite.com>
wrote:
"We tried to do our best but I think there is much room for criticism
because, undoubtedly, there was arrogance and there was stupidity from
the United States in Iraq," he said.
"We are open to dialogue because we all know that, at the end of the
day, the solution to the hell and the killings in Iraq is linked to an
effective Iraqi national reconciliation," he said, speaking in Arabic
from Washington. "The Iraqi government is convinced of this."
I never heard anyone provide such strong proof of his statement in
such a short time.
"an effective Iraqi national reconciliation" has go to be one of the
most arrogant and stupid things our government has ever said about an
artificial "nation" made of 3 groups that definitely don't want to
live anywhere near each other, unless it's to kill one another.
It's not surprising when our government officials don't even know the
difference between a Sunni and a Shiite.
Competance is absent this misadministration. Ideology's the driver.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=5&article_i
d=76312
Can Washington's counter-terror officials tell a Sunni from a Shiite?
By Jeff Stein
Commentary by
Friday, October 20, 2006
For the past several months, I've been wrapping up lengthy interviews
with Washington counterterrorism officials with a fundamental question:
"Do you know the difference between a Sunni and a Shiite?"
A "gotcha" question? Perhaps. But if knowing your enemy is the most
basic rule of war, I don't think it's out of bounds. And as I quickly
explain to my subjects, I'm not looking for theological explanations,
just the basics: Who's on what side today, and what does each want?
After all, wouldn't British officials responsible for Northern Ireland
know the difference between Catholics and Protestants? In a remotely
similar but far more lethal vein, the 1,400-year Sunni-Shiite rivalry is
playing out in the streets of Baghdad, raising the specter of a breakup
of Iraq into antagonistic states, one backed by Shiite Iran and the
other by Saudi Arabia and other Sunni states.
A complete collapse in Iraq could provide a haven for Al-Qaeda
operatives within striking distance of Israel, even Europe. And the
nature of the threat from Iran, a potential nuclear power with proteges
in the Gulf, northern Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and the Palestinian
territories, is entirely different from that of Al-Qaeda. It seems silly
to have to argue that officials responsible for counterterrorism should
be able to recognize opportunities for pitting these rivals against each
other.
But so far, most American officials I've interviewed don't have a clue.
That includes not just intelligence and law enforcement officials, but
also members of Congress who have important roles overseeing our spy
agencies. How can they do their jobs without knowing the basics?
My curiosity about our policymakers' grasp of Islam's two major branches
was piqued in 2005, when Jon Stewart and other comedians made hash out
of depositions, taken in a whistleblower case, in which top FBI
officials drew blanks when asked basic questions about Islam. One of the
bemused officials was Gary Bald, then the bureau's counterterrorism
chief. Such expertise, Bald maintained, wasn't as important as being a
good manager.
A few months later, I asked the FBI's spokesman, John Miller, about
Bald's comments. "A leader needs to drive the organization forward,"
Miller told me. "If he is the executive in a counterterrorism operation
in the post-9/11 world, he does not need to memorize the collected
statements of Osama bin Laden, or be able to read Urdu to be effective.
.... Playing 'Islamic Trivial Pursuit' was a cheap shot for the lawyers
and a cheaper shot for the journalist. It's just a gimmick."
Of course, I hadn't asked about reading Urdu or bin Laden's writings.
A few weeks ago, I took the FBI's temperature again. At the end of a
long interview, I asked Willie Hulon, chief of the bureau's new national
security branch, if he thought that it was important for him to know the
difference between Sunnis and Shiites. "Yes, sure, it's right to know
the difference," he said. "It's important to know who your targets are."
That was a big advance over 2005. So next I asked him if he could tell
me the difference. He was flummoxed. "The basics goes back to their
beliefs and who they were following," he said. "And the conflicts
between the Sunnis and the Shia and the difference between who they were
following."
OK, I asked, trying to help, what about today? Which one is Iran - Sunni
or Shiite? He thought for a second. "Iran and Hizbullah," I prompted.
"Which are they?" He took a stab: "Sunni." Wrong. Al-Qaeda? "Sunni."
Right.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb
And to his credit, Hulon, a distinguished agent who is up nights
worrying about Al-Qaeda while we safely sleep, did at least know that
the vicious struggle between Islam's Abel and Cain was driving Iraq into
civil war. But then we pay him to know things like that, the same as
some members of Congress.
Take Representative Terry Everett, a seven-term Alabama Republican who
is vice chairman of the House Intelligence Subcommittee on Technical and
Tactical Intelligence. "Do you know the difference between a Sunni and a
Shiite?" I asked him a few weeks ago.
Everett responded with a low chuckle. He thought for a moment: "One's in
one location, another's in another location. No, to be honest with you,
I don't know. I thought it was differences in their religion, different
families or something."
To his credit, he asked me to explain the differences. I told him
briefly about the schism that developed after the death of the Prophet
Mohammad, and how Iraq and Iran are majority Shiite nations while the
rest of the Muslim world is mostly Sunni. "Now that you've explained it
to me," he replied, "what occurs to me is that it makes what we're doing
over there extremely difficult, not only in Iraq but that whole area."
Representative Jo Ann Davis, a Virginia Republican who heads a House
intelligence subcommittee charged with overseeing the CIA's performance
in recruiting Islamic spies and analyzing information, was similarly
dumbfounded when I asked her if she knew the difference between Sunnis
and Shiites.
"Do I?" she asked me. A look of concentration came over her face. "You
know, I should." She took a stab at it: "It's a difference in their
fundamental religious beliefs. The Sunni are more radical than the Shia.
Or vice versa. But I think it's the Sunnis who're more radical than the
Shia."
Did she know which branch Al-Qaeda's leaders follow? "Al-Qaeda is the
one that's most radical, so I think they're Sunni," she replied. "I may
be wrong, but I think that's right."
Did she think that it was important, I asked, for members of Congress
charged with oversight of the intelligence agencies, to know the answer
to such questions, so they can cut through officials' puffery when they
came up to the Hill?
"Oh, I think it's very important," said Davis, "because Al-Qaeda's whole
reason for being is based on their beliefs. And you've got to
understand, and to know your enemy."
It's not all so grimly humorous. Some agency officials and members of
Congress have easily handled my "gotcha" question. But as I keep asking
it around Capitol Hill and the agencies, I get more and more blank
stares. Too many officials in charge of the war on terrorism just don't
care to learn much, if anything, about the enemy we're fighting. And
that's enough to keep anybody up at night.
Jeff Stein is the national security editor at Congressional Quarterly.
This commentary first appeared in The New York Times (c) and is
republished by THE DAILY STAR with permission.
/end
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
22 Oct 2006 08:38:31 PM |
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On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 23:19:39 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
It's not surprising when our government officials don't even know the
difference between a Sunni and a Shiite.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=5&article_id=76312
But tell them that a Christian is a Christian and they'll look at you
as if you're the one who rode the short bus to school.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
The most curious social convention of the great age in which we live is the
one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected.
-- H. L. Mencken
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
22 Oct 2006 11:21:23 PM |
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In article <pt6oj296u6h2s6dflj6qutnonrmub12ab7@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 23:19:39 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
It's not surprising when our government officials don't even know the
difference between a Sunni and a Shiite.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=5&article_id=76
312
But tell them that a Christian is a Christian and they'll look at you
as if you're the one who rode the short bus to school.
I think that we've seen time and time again here that they don't even
know their own religion and in particular their scripture.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
23 Oct 2006 09:48:37 AM |
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On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 21:21:23 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
In article <pt6oj296u6h2s6dflj6qutnonrmub12ab7@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 23:19:39 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
It's not surprising when our government officials don't even know the
difference between a Sunni and a Shiite.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=5&article_id=76
312
But tell them that a Christian is a Christian and they'll look at you
as if you're the one who rode the short bus to school.
I think that we've seen time and time again here that they don't even
know their own religion and in particular their scripture.
And those who seem to know a little about it know a different religion
and a different scripture than others who know a little about it.
Sugar or no sugar? Decisions, decisions.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"If anyone comes to me, and does not hate his father, mother, wife, brothers, and sisters and even himself, he cannot be my disciple."
Luke 14:26
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
23 Oct 2006 11:39:05 PM |
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In article <cglpj2d6h86gkvif9mkt2psg1n00shg7ob@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 21:21:23 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
In article <pt6oj296u6h2s6dflj6qutnonrmub12ab7@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 23:19:39 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
It's not surprising when our government officials don't even know the
difference between a Sunni and a Shiite.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=5&article_id
=76
312
But tell them that a Christian is a Christian and they'll look at you
as if you're the one who rode the short bus to school.
I think that we've seen time and time again here that they don't even
know their own religion and in particular their scripture.
And those who seem to know a little about it know a different religion
and a different scripture than others who know a little about it.
Sugar or no sugar? Decisions, decisions.
True. I take that as further evidence for evidence for the non existence
of gods. If there were an all powerful god who cared about its
creations, why would it permit such a diversity of religions? I would
think that it would have appeared to EVERYBODY at the same time and
said: "Hi. I'm God. Here is the religion I want you to follow, Now do it
or else!"
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
24 Oct 2006 09:16:55 AM |
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On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:39:05 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
True. I take that as further evidence for evidence for the non existence
of gods. If there were an all powerful god who cared about its
creations, why would it permit such a diversity of religions? I would
think that it would have appeared to EVERYBODY at the same time and
said: "Hi. I'm God. Here is the religion I want you to follow, Now do it
or else!"
He did, according to the Jews. According to the Christians he gives
us free will. But fries us for making the "wrong" choice - which is
any choice their particular brand of Christianity decides it is.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand
why I dismiss yours."
- Stephen F. Roberts
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
24 Oct 2006 11:57:07 PM |
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In article <308sj2lup0jdo2v6bfno1eph8c22m8hkj9@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:39:05 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
True. I take that as further evidence for evidence for the non existence
of gods. If there were an all powerful god who cared about its
creations, why would it permit such a diversity of religions? I would
think that it would have appeared to EVERYBODY at the same time and
said: "Hi. I'm God. Here is the religion I want you to follow, Now do it
or else!"
He did, according to the Jews.
To them, but he didn't to their OT contemporaries.
According to the Christians he gives
us free will. But fries us for making the "wrong" choice - which is
any choice their particular brand of Christianity decides it is.
But if an all powerful, all knowing god knew that some were going to
fail and then created them so that they would fail, is that really free
will? And I wouldn't call that just either.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
25 Oct 2006 02:43:08 AM |
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On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:57:07 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
In article <308sj2lup0jdo2v6bfno1eph8c22m8hkj9@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:39:05 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
True. I take that as further evidence for evidence for the non existence
of gods. If there were an all powerful god who cared about its
creations, why would it permit such a diversity of religions? I would
think that it would have appeared to EVERYBODY at the same time and
said: "Hi. I'm God. Here is the religion I want you to follow, Now do it
or else!"
He did, according to the Jews.
To them, but he didn't to their OT contemporaries.
According to the Christians he gives
us free will. But fries us for making the "wrong" choice - which is
any choice their particular brand of Christianity decides it is.
But if an all powerful, all knowing god knew that some were going to
fail and then created them so that they would fail, is that really free
will? And I wouldn't call that just either.
It's both. It's anything the cult says it is. Even if all the claims
are mutually contradictory. He's omnipotent, so he can do things that
are impossible, like making injustice be just and making slavery be
free will.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can
solve them."
-Isaac Asimov
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
25 Oct 2006 11:37:17 PM |
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In article <b95uj2l2rh4sp76ig78djs0ohaltihf89k@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:57:07 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
In article <308sj2lup0jdo2v6bfno1eph8c22m8hkj9@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:39:05 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
True. I take that as further evidence for evidence for the non existence
of gods. If there were an all powerful god who cared about its
creations, why would it permit such a diversity of religions? I would
think that it would have appeared to EVERYBODY at the same time and
said: "Hi. I'm God. Here is the religion I want you to follow, Now do it
or else!"
He did, according to the Jews.
To them, but he didn't to their OT contemporaries.
According to the Christians he gives
us free will. But fries us for making the "wrong" choice - which is
any choice their particular brand of Christianity decides it is.
But if an all powerful, all knowing god knew that some were going to
fail and then created them so that they would fail, is that really free
will? And I wouldn't call that just either.
It's both. It's anything the cult says it is. Even if all the claims
are mutually contradictory. He's omnipotent, so he can do things that
are impossible, like making injustice be just and making slavery be
free will.
That is what is so frustrating about arguing with these people. You can
point out the illogic, contradictions, and inconsistencies until you are
blue in the face and all you get back is the same again and again and
again.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
26 Oct 2006 09:00:51 PM |
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:37:17 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
In article <b95uj2l2rh4sp76ig78djs0ohaltihf89k@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:57:07 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
In article <308sj2lup0jdo2v6bfno1eph8c22m8hkj9@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:39:05 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
True. I take that as further evidence for evidence for the non existence
of gods. If there were an all powerful god who cared about its
creations, why would it permit such a diversity of religions? I would
think that it would have appeared to EVERYBODY at the same time and
said: "Hi. I'm God. Here is the religion I want you to follow, Now do it
or else!"
He did, according to the Jews.
To them, but he didn't to their OT contemporaries.
According to the Christians he gives
us free will. But fries us for making the "wrong" choice - which is
any choice their particular brand of Christianity decides it is.
But if an all powerful, all knowing god knew that some were going to
fail and then created them so that they would fail, is that really free
will? And I wouldn't call that just either.
It's both. It's anything the cult says it is. Even if all the claims
are mutually contradictory. He's omnipotent, so he can do things that
are impossible, like making injustice be just and making slavery be
free will.
That is what is so frustrating about arguing with these people. You can
point out the illogic, contradictions, and inconsistencies until you are
blue in the face and all you get back is the same again and again and
again.
You're dealing with stark raving terror and terror trumps reason.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
|
|
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| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
27 Oct 2006 01:05:29 AM |
|
|
In article <i1q2k2dufn1cipuj3a1he246boio4i19c1@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:37:17 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
In article <b95uj2l2rh4sp76ig78djs0ohaltihf89k@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:57:07 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
In article <308sj2lup0jdo2v6bfno1eph8c22m8hkj9@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:39:05 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
True. I take that as further evidence for evidence for the non
existence
of gods. If there were an all powerful god who cared about its
creations, why would it permit such a diversity of religions? I would
think that it would have appeared to EVERYBODY at the same time and
said: "Hi. I'm God. Here is the religion I want you to follow, Now do
it
or else!"
He did, according to the Jews.
To them, but he didn't to their OT contemporaries.
According to the Christians he gives
us free will. But fries us for making the "wrong" choice - which is
any choice their particular brand of Christianity decides it is.
But if an all powerful, all knowing god knew that some were going to
fail and then created them so that they would fail, is that really free
will? And I wouldn't call that just either.
It's both. It's anything the cult says it is. Even if all the claims
are mutually contradictory. He's omnipotent, so he can do things that
are impossible, like making injustice be just and making slavery be
free will.
That is what is so frustrating about arguing with these people. You can
point out the illogic, contradictions, and inconsistencies until you are
blue in the face and all you get back is the same again and again and
again.
You're dealing with stark raving terror and terror trumps reason.
They are afraid of a threat that doesn't exist. All religion is based on
paranoia.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
27 Oct 2006 11:15:07 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 23:05:29 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
In article <i1q2k2dufn1cipuj3a1he246boio4i19c1@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:37:17 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
In article <b95uj2l2rh4sp76ig78djs0ohaltihf89k@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:57:07 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
In article <308sj2lup0jdo2v6bfno1eph8c22m8hkj9@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:39:05 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
True. I take that as further evidence for evidence for the non
existence
of gods. If there were an all powerful god who cared about its
creations, why would it permit such a diversity of religions? I would
think that it would have appeared to EVERYBODY at the same time and
said: "Hi. I'm God. Here is the religion I want you to follow, Now do
it
or else!"
He did, according to the Jews.
To them, but he didn't to their OT contemporaries.
According to the Christians he gives
us free will. But fries us for making the "wrong" choice - which is
any choice their particular brand of Christianity decides it is.
But if an all powerful, all knowing god knew that some were going to
fail and then created them so that they would fail, is that really free
will? And I wouldn't call that just either.
It's both. It's anything the cult says it is. Even if all the claims
are mutually contradictory. He's omnipotent, so he can do things that
are impossible, like making injustice be just and making slavery be
free will.
That is what is so frustrating about arguing with these people. You can
point out the illogic, contradictions, and inconsistencies until you are
blue in the face and all you get back is the same again and again and
again.
You're dealing with stark raving terror and terror trumps reason.
They are afraid of a threat that doesn't exist. All religion is based on
paranoia.
True, but until the terror levels decrease so cognitive functions come
online....
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
28 Oct 2006 12:42:03 AM |
|
|
In article <e8m5k2dk5jtpbagf11jir2cbdqfhms5iqj@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 23:05:29 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
In article <i1q2k2dufn1cipuj3a1he246boio4i19c1@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:37:17 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
In article <b95uj2l2rh4sp76ig78djs0ohaltihf89k@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:57:07 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
In article <308sj2lup0jdo2v6bfno1eph8c22m8hkj9@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:39:05 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
True. I take that as further evidence for evidence for the non
existence
of gods. If there were an all powerful god who cared about its
creations, why would it permit such a diversity of religions? I
would
think that it would have appeared to EVERYBODY at the same time and
said: "Hi. I'm God. Here is the religion I want you to follow, Now
do
it
or else!"
He did, according to the Jews.
To them, but he didn't to their OT contemporaries.
According to the Christians he gives
us free will. But fries us for making the "wrong" choice - which is
any choice their particular brand of Christianity decides it is.
But if an all powerful, all knowing god knew that some were going to
fail and then created them so that they would fail, is that really
free
will? And I wouldn't call that just either.
It's both. It's anything the cult says it is. Even if all the claims
are mutually contradictory. He's omnipotent, so he can do things that
are impossible, like making injustice be just and making slavery be
free will.
That is what is so frustrating about arguing with these people. You can
point out the illogic, contradictions, and inconsistencies until you are
blue in the face and all you get back is the same again and again and
again.
You're dealing with stark raving terror and terror trumps reason.
They are afraid of a threat that doesn't exist. All religion is based on
paranoia.
True, but until the terror levels decrease so cognitive functions come
online....
True, but then their masters just preach another sermon and raise them
again.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
|
|
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| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
29 Oct 2006 10:05:43 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 22:42:03 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
In article <e8m5k2dk5jtpbagf11jir2cbdqfhms5iqj@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 23:05:29 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
[]
According to the Christians he gives
us free will. But fries us for making the "wrong" choice - which is
any choice their particular brand of Christianity decides it is.
But if an all powerful, all knowing god knew that some were going to
fail and then created them so that they would fail, is that really
free
will? And I wouldn't call that just either.
It's both. It's anything the cult says it is. Even if all the claims
are mutually contradictory. He's omnipotent, so he can do things that
are impossible, like making injustice be just and making slavery be
free will.
That is what is so frustrating about arguing with these people. You can
point out the illogic, contradictions, and inconsistencies until you are
blue in the face and all you get back is the same again and again and
again.
You're dealing with stark raving terror and terror trumps reason.
They are afraid of a threat that doesn't exist. All religion is based on
paranoia.
True, but until the terror levels decrease so cognitive functions come
online....
True, but then their masters just preach another sermon and raise them
again.
Of course! If they're not regularly reminded of the depravity of their
loving and forgiving daemon deity prophet$ will drop.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
|
|
|
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
28 Oct 2006 10:50:05 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:15:07 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 23:05:29 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
They are afraid of a threat that doesn't exist. All religion is based on
paranoia.
True, but until the terror levels decrease so cognitive functions come
online....
But the cognitive functions are needed to reduce the terror levels so
....
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education and social
ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he
had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
-Albert Einstein
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.
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| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Diplomat Cites U.S. 'Stupidity' in Iraq |
29 Oct 2006 10:06:05 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 11:50:05 -0400, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote
in alt.atheism
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:15:07 -0700, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 23:05:29 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
They are afraid of a threat that doesn't exist. All religion is based on
paranoia.
True, but until the terror levels decrease so cognitive functions come
online....
But the cognitive functions are needed to reduce the terror levels so
....round and round.....
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
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| User: "Mark D J. Mark D" |
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| Title: ...And then retracts the remarks...! |
23 Oct 2006 01:21:37 PM |
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6075934.stm
M.
.
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| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: ...And then retracts the remarks...! |
26 Oct 2006 08:57:53 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 18:21:37 GMT, "Mark D J." <Mark D J.@hoyme.com>
wrote in alt.atheism
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6075934.stm
Monday, 23 October 2006, 04:57 GMT 05:57 UK
US official retracts Iraq remarks
The US state department official who said that the US had shown
"arrogance and stupidity" in Iraq has apologised for his comments.
Alberto Fernandez, who made the remarks during an interview with Arabic
TV station al-Jazeera, said he had "seriously misspoken".
His comments did not represent the views of the state department, he
said.
The BBC's Sarah Morris in Washington says it is unclear if Mr Fernandez
was told by his seniors to apologise.
His original remarks have resonated with many Democrats and some
Republicans who have been urging the administration to shift their
course in the conflict, she says.
They came at a time of intense scrutiny of White House Iraq policy, with
mid-term elections due next month.
'Disaster for region'
Mr Fernandez is an Arabic speaker who is director of public diplomacy in
the state department's Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs.
On Saturday, he told the Qatar-based broadcaster that the world was
"witnessing failure in Iraq".
"That's not the failure of the United States alone, but it is a disaster
for the region," he said.
"I think there is great room for strong criticism, because without
doubt, there was arrogance and stupidity by the United States in Iraq."
State department spokesman Sean McCormack initially said that Mr
Fernandez had been quoted incorrectly and rejected his comments.
And in a statement posted on the state department's website, Mr
Fernandez retracted his remarks.
"Upon reading the transcript of my appearance on al-Jazeera, I realised
that I seriously misspoke by using the phrase: 'There has been arrogance
and stupidity' by the US in Iraq," he said.
"This represents neither my views nor those of the state department. I
apologise."
/end
Translation: He told the truth and was royally reamed for doing so.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
|
|
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|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: ...And then retracts the remarks...! |
23 Oct 2006 01:54:55 PM |
|
|
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 18:21:37 GMT, "Mark D J." <Mark D J.@hoyme.com>
wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6075934.stm
"The BBC's Sarah Morris in Washington says it is unclear if Mr
Fernandez was told by his seniors to apologise."
Unclear to whom? Some badly brain-damaged 6 month old goldfish?
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Damn. Looks like all of usenet agrees that you don't have the logical
faculties to prove the statement 'dogshit is not peanut butter' if we
gave you a jar of each and a box of crackers" - John Hattan to Tichy
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.
|
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| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: ...And then retracts the remarks...! |
23 Oct 2006 11:41:17 PM |
|
|
In article <0u3qj21e98m681oji45hakh7hk1qalr90r@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 18:21:37 GMT, "Mark D J." <Mark D J.@hoyme.com>
wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6075934.stm
"The BBC's Sarah Morris in Washington says it is unclear if Mr
Fernandez was told by his seniors to apologise."
Unclear to whom? Some badly brain-damaged 6 month old goldfish?
Probably gave him a choice either apologizing or Gitmo.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
|
|
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: ...And then retracts the remarks...! |
24 Oct 2006 09:17:52 AM |
|
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On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:41:17 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
In article <0u3qj21e98m681oji45hakh7hk1qalr90r@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 18:21:37 GMT, "Mark D J." <Mark D J.@hoyme.com>
wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6075934.stm
"The BBC's Sarah Morris in Washington says it is unclear if Mr
Fernandez was told by his seniors to apologise."
Unclear to whom? Some badly brain-damaged 6 month old goldfish?
Probably gave him a choice either apologizing or Gitmo.
I don't think the sock puppets have to be threatened - they just have
to be handed the script.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed
to ignore totally all the patient findings of thinking minds through all
the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant
people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking
among us who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all, who
would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us, who would invade
our schools and libraries and homes.
- Isaac Asimov
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.
|
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| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: ...And then retracts the remarks...! |
24 Oct 2006 11:59:44 PM |
|
|
In article <d38sj218t7bmi5tc68pk2fch71dgm8ljl8@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:41:17 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
In article <0u3qj21e98m681oji45hakh7hk1qalr90r@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 18:21:37 GMT, "Mark D J." <Mark D J.@hoyme.com>
wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6075934.stm
"The BBC's Sarah Morris in Washington says it is unclear if Mr
Fernandez was told by his seniors to apologise."
Unclear to whom? Some badly brain-damaged 6 month old goldfish?
Probably gave him a choice either apologizing or Gitmo.
I don't think the sock puppets have to be threatened - they just have
to be handed the script.
He probably had a little 'chat' with Cheney or Rove which would be scary
enough.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
|
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
|
| Title: Re: ...And then retracts the remarks...! |
25 Nov 2006 02:10:36 AM |
|
|
"johac" <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com> wrote in message
news:jhachmann-EA59A0.21594424102006@news.giganews.com...
In article <d38sj218t7bmi5tc68pk2fch71dgm8ljl8@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:41:17 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
In article <0u3qj21e98m681oji45hakh7hk1qalr90r@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 18:21:37 GMT, "Mark D J." <Mark D J.@hoyme.com>
wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6075934.stm
"The BBC's Sarah Morris in Washington says it is unclear if Mr
Fernandez was told by his seniors to apologise."
Unclear to whom? Some badly brain-damaged 6 month old goldfish?
Probably gave him a choice either apologizing or Gitmo.
I don't think the sock puppets have to be threatened - they just have
to be handed the script.
He probably had a little 'chat' with Cheney or Rove which would be scary
enough.
I don't want to be near either one of them, if the
election turns out the way I'm hoping it will. They
will be breathing flames. I wonder who they'll take
it out on.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit
atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: ...And then retracts the remarks...! |
25 Oct 2006 11:45:12 PM |
|
|
In article <KcSdnWah_vt6kKLYnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
"johac" <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com> wrote in message
news:jhachmann-EA59A0.21594424102006@news.giganews.com...
In article <d38sj218t7bmi5tc68pk2fch71dgm8ljl8@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:41:17 -0700, johac <jhachmann@sbcglobal.com>
wrote:
In article <0u3qj21e98m681oji45hakh7hk1qalr90r@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 18:21:37 GMT, "Mark D J." <Mark D J.@hoyme.com>
wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6075934.stm
"The BBC's Sarah Morris in Washington says it is unclear if Mr
Fernandez was told by his seniors to apologise."
Unclear to whom? Some badly brain-damaged 6 month old goldfish?
Probably gave him a choice either apologizing or Gitmo.
I don't think the sock puppets have to be threatened - they just have
to be handed the script.
He probably had a little 'chat' with Cheney or Rove which would be scary
enough.
I don't want to be near either one of them, if the
election turns out the way I'm hoping it will. They
will be breathing flames. I wonder who they'll take
it out on.
One problem in our system is that Congress doesn't begin its new term
early in January. The first week, I believe. That gives the evildoers
almost two whole months in which time they can cause untold mischief.
We should really think of amending the Constitution so that the new term
should start ASAP after the election. Leave 'lame duck' sessions for
the ducks.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
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