| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Truth Hunter" |
| Date: |
27 Nov 2005 12:37:00 PM |
| Object: |
Do babies burn in Hell? |
Do babies burn in Hell?
Recently I found a webpage that all believers in
salvation-through-faith should read. It is entitled "Do Babies
Automatically go to Heaven?" The author, K. B. Napier, argues they do
not. His argument is simple: One must be born again to go to heaven;
babies cannot be born again; therefore babies are doomed.
The implications of his argument are so horrible that most Christians
will immediately turn from the suggestion. How could God burn a baby in
hell forever for not believing, even though the baby had never reached
an age where he could understand? What would one ever say to a grieving
mother whose infant was in hell? Napier confronts that problem:
Quote
I can partially understand the desire not to increase the burden of
a bereaved parent, by saying something soothing...but to claim it to be
a part of scriptural teaching is yet another matter, of gravest
importance, because it totally undermines the true gospel...In an
effort to comfort the bereaved they often say things that are
unscriptural. This is particularly so if the dead person is an unborn
or young child. What minister has the courage to teach what scripture
says in such circumstances? I know of none!<<
I struggle to think how Napier might comfort the grieving mother whose
infant is supposedly screaming in hell.
Napier is quick to point out that babies are sinners and that sinners
go to hell. But even he cannot seem to find the words to declare that
babies go to hell. He chooses to concentrate on his conclusion that
they don't go to heaven. But he clearly infers where infants go: They
all burn in eternal conscious torment in hell forever.
But if you reject Napier's teaching, and find that the rule requiring
new birth has an exception in the case of infants--and most Christians
think it does--are there other exceptions? Are the mentally handicapped
also exempted? What about those who haven't heard? What about those who
have reviewed the facts, and decided they cannot believe? If babies can
be exempted from the curse without a new birth, why can't others enjoy
the same exemption? And then why would faith even matter?
If one truly thought that one must believe certain assertions to escape
hell, it seems to me he would end up at the barbaric conclusion that
Napier reaches. What do you think?
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org
Bumper Sticker
DIVINE INSANITY
God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation fro=ADm his own
wrath!(Author unknown)=20
One God, father-son-ghost?
.
|
|
| User: "Bill" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
27 Nov 2005 01:42:04 PM |
|
|
Pure Biblical myth. There is absolutely no objective verifiable evidence for
either a Heaven or a Hell.
"Truth Hunter" <hunter1234222@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1133116620.693516.201350@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Do babies burn in Hell?
Recently I found a webpage that all believers in
salvation-through-faith should read. It is entitled "Do Babies
Automatically go to Heaven?" The author, K. B. Napier, argues they do
not. His argument is simple: One must be born again to go to heaven;
babies cannot be born again; therefore babies are doomed.
The implications of his argument are so horrible that most Christians
will immediately turn from the suggestion. How could God burn a baby in
hell forever for not believing, even though the baby had never reached
an age where he could understand? What would one ever say to a grieving
mother whose infant was in hell? Napier confronts that problem:
Quote
I can partially understand the desire not to increase the burden of
a bereaved parent, by saying something soothing...but to claim it to be
a part of scriptural teaching is yet another matter, of gravest
importance, because it totally undermines the true gospel...In an
effort to comfort the bereaved they often say things that are
unscriptural. This is particularly so if the dead person is an unborn
or young child. What minister has the courage to teach what scripture
says in such circumstances? I know of none!<<
I struggle to think how Napier might comfort the grieving mother whose
infant is supposedly screaming in hell.
Napier is quick to point out that babies are sinners and that sinners
go to hell. But even he cannot seem to find the words to declare that
babies go to hell. He chooses to concentrate on his conclusion that
they don't go to heaven. But he clearly infers where infants go: They
all burn in eternal conscious torment in hell forever.
But if you reject Napier's teaching, and find that the rule requiring
new birth has an exception in the case of infants--and most Christians
think it does--are there other exceptions? Are the mentally handicapped
also exempted? What about those who haven't heard? What about those who
have reviewed the facts, and decided they cannot believe? If babies can
be exempted from the curse without a new birth, why can't others enjoy
the same exemption? And then why would faith even matter?
If one truly thought that one must believe certain assertions to escape
hell, it seems to me he would end up at the barbaric conclusion that
Napier reaches. What do you think?
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org
Bumper Sticker
DIVINE INSANITY
God killed himself on the cross to save his own creation from his own
wrath!(Author unknown)
One God, father-son-ghost?
.
|
|
|
| User: "The Watch Dog" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
28 Nov 2005 01:34:47 AM |
|
|
Bill wrote:
I struggle to think how Napier might comfort the grieving mother whose
infant is supposedly screaming in hell.
The same way you comfort a mother whose adolescent son is screaming in
hell because he masturbated, or an adult son who is screaming in hell
because he was gay. Surely we've mastered these techniques by now!
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "dgillesp" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
27 Nov 2005 04:29:33 PM |
|
|
Truth Hunter wrote:
Do babies burn in Hell?
No.
--
Denny
"There cannot be a God because, If there were one, I would
not believe that I were not He." - Friedrich Nietzsche
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Hugh Betcha" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
27 Nov 2005 05:11:47 PM |
|
|
Truth Hunter wrote:
Do babies burn in Hell?
Well, if you believe in the Protestant fundi-literalist 'by faith
alone' doctrine, then yes, babies burn in hell. They were not born, so
they could not be 'born again' nor are there acts upon which salvation
can hinge, nor is there Purgatory, nor does God have mercy; because He
follows His Law to the letter.
"Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for
the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
-Jesus
.
|
|
|
| User: "Icono" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
27 Nov 2005 10:48:52 PM |
|
|
"Hugh Betcha" <gemond@canada.com> wrote in message
news:1133133107.332288.73140@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Truth Hunter wrote:
Do babies burn in Hell?
Well, if you believe in the Protestant fundi-literalist 'by faith
alone' doctrine, then yes, babies burn in hell. They were not born, so
they could not be 'born again' nor are there acts upon which salvation
can hinge, nor is there Purgatory, nor does God have mercy; because He
follows His Law to the letter.
"Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for
the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
-Jesus
They are born of water at conception.
God chooses before they are born.
Too bad your idiotic argument shows your ignorance.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Hugh Betcha" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
28 Nov 2005 01:23:44 AM |
|
|
Do babies burn in Hell?
Well, if you believe in the Protestant fundi-literalist 'by faith
alone' doctrine, then yes, babies burn in hell. They were not born, so
they could not be 'born again' nor are there acts upon which salvation
can hinge, nor is there Purgatory, nor does God have mercy; because He
follows His Law to the letter.
"Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for
the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
-Jesus
They are born of water at conception.
God chooses before they are born.
Too bad your idiotic argument shows your ignorance.
Interesting. At what point does He- uh... 'unchoose' them, and send
them into the world hopefully to be 'born again'- or would it be 'born
again again'?
.
|
|
|
| User: "V.O." |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
28 Nov 2005 08:40:30 AM |
|
|
"Hugh Betcha" <gemond@canada.com> wrote in message
news:1133162624.179301.120780@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Do babies burn in Hell?
Well, if you believe in the Protestant fundi-literalist 'by faith
alone' doctrine, then yes, babies burn in hell. They were not born, so
they could not be 'born again' nor are there acts upon which salvation
can hinge, nor is there Purgatory, nor does God have mercy; because He
follows His Law to the letter.
"Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for
the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
-Jesus
They are born of water at conception.
God chooses before they are born.
Too bad your idiotic argument shows your ignorance.
Interesting. At what point does He- uh... 'unchoose' them, and send
them into the world hopefully to be 'born again'- or would it be 'born
again again'?
You are incapable (by God's design) to understand, so live your life, *****
a lot and die.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Hugh Betcha" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
28 Nov 2005 10:15:55 AM |
|
|
Do babies burn in Hell?
Well, if you believe in the Protestant fundi-literalist 'by faith
alone' doctrine, then yes, babies burn in hell. They were not born, so
they could not be 'born again' nor are there acts upon which salvation
can hinge, nor is there Purgatory, nor does God have mercy; because He
follows His Law to the letter.
"Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for
the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
-Jesus
They are born of water at conception.
God chooses before they are born.
Too bad your idiotic argument shows your ignorance.
Interesting. At what point does He- uh... 'unchoose' them, and send
them into the world hopefully to be 'born again'- or would it be 'born
again again'?
You are incapable (by God's design) to understand, so live your life, *****
a lot and die.
I try not to ***** TOO much.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Uncle Vic" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
27 Nov 2005 10:08:47 PM |
|
|
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Hugh Betcha
(gemond@canada.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
Do babies burn in Hell?
Well, if you believe in the Protestant fundi-literalist 'by faith
alone' doctrine, then yes, babies burn in hell. They were not born, so
they could not be 'born again' nor are there acts upon which salvation
can hinge, nor is there Purgatory, nor does God have mercy; because He
follows His Law to the letter.
Are the Protestants wrong? Why?
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
----
sig under construction
.
|
|
|
| User: "R.L.Measures" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
28 Nov 2005 03:51:02 AM |
|
|
In article <Xns971BCCE908060vicman@216.196.97.136>, Uncle Vic
<address@withheld.com> wrote:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Hugh Betcha
(gemond@canada.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
Do babies burn in Hell?
Well, if you believe in the Protestant fundi-literalist 'by faith
alone' doctrine, then yes, babies burn in hell. They were not born, so
they could not be 'born again' nor are there acts upon which salvation
can hinge, nor is there Purgatory, nor does God have mercy; because He
follows His Law to the letter.
Are the Protestants wrong? Why?
*** Because they took way too damn much RCC doctrine with them when they
bailed out.
--
R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Hugh Betcha" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
28 Nov 2005 01:26:09 AM |
|
|
Uncle Vic wrote:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Hugh Betcha
(gemond@canada.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
Do babies burn in Hell?
Well, if you believe in the Protestant fundi-literalist 'by faith
alone' doctrine, then yes, babies burn in hell. They were not born, so
they could not be 'born again' nor are there acts upon which salvation
can hinge, nor is there Purgatory, nor does God have mercy; because He
follows His Law to the letter.
Are the Protestants wrong? Why?
Didn't say THAT, now did I? Are you asking MY opinion on whether or not
'babies burn in hell'?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Steve Knight" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
28 Nov 2005 08:43:33 PM |
|
|
On 27 Nov 2005 23:26:09 -0800, "Hugh Betcha" <gemond@canada.com>
wrote:
Uncle Vic wrote:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Hugh Betcha
(gemond@canada.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
Do babies burn in Hell?
Well, if you believe in the Protestant fundi-literalist 'by faith
alone' doctrine, then yes, babies burn in hell. They were not born, so
they could not be 'born again' nor are there acts upon which salvation
can hinge, nor is there Purgatory, nor does God have mercy; because He
follows His Law to the letter.
Are the Protestants wrong? Why?
Didn't say THAT, now did I? Are you asking MY opinion on whether or not
'babies burn in hell'?
So now it's your opinion and not a god thing.
What a shocker...... from a theist.
What do you 'think' happens to babies, Hugh? 'Cuse I missed the
part about coming to the father through me.....'except little babies'
part. Lets make up some holy scripture based on the opinion of current
2005 morals. Never mind the virgin rapes, killing first born or
mauling's. That's the OT and we know your god is unchanging unless
it's... it's bad?
Why not? It's not like the guys writing the bible thought the Earth
was round.
Warlord Steve
BAAWA
www.sonic.net/~wooly
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Uncle Vic" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
28 Nov 2005 01:45:22 AM |
|
|
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Hugh Betcha
(gemond@canada.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
Uncle Vic wrote:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Hugh Betcha
(gemond@canada.com) made the light shine upon us with this:
Do babies burn in Hell?
Well, if you believe in the Protestant fundi-literalist 'by faith
alone' doctrine, then yes, babies burn in hell. They were not born,
so they could not be 'born again' nor are there acts upon which
salvation can hinge, nor is there Purgatory, nor does God have
mercy; because He follows His Law to the letter.
Are the Protestants wrong? Why?
Didn't say THAT, now did I? Are you asking MY opinion on whether or
not 'babies burn in hell'?
Don't read into it, it's relevant. Fundamentalists take one approach,
"by faith alone" as you mentioned above. The Catholics have a whole
other heirarchy of afterlives that their god told them of, or they made
up, I don't know which. All I want to know is, who is right, and who is
going to hell for being wrong? In your opinion, of course.
--
Uncle Vic
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
----
sig under construction
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
28 Nov 2005 11:31:16 AM |
|
|
Truth Hunter wrote:
Do babies burn in Hell?
Recently I found a webpage that all believers in
salvation-through-faith should read. It is entitled "Do Babies
Automatically go to Heaven?" The author, K. B. Napier, argues they do
not. His argument is simple: One must be born again to go to heaven;
babies cannot be born again; therefore babies are doomed.
That is the essence of the Christian message (at least as accepted by
Protestants): To be saved, you must accept Jesus Christ. If you die before
you can accept Jesus Christ, then damn you to Hell.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"[W]e have never held that moral disapproval, without any other asserted
state interest, is a sufficient rationale under the Equal Protection
Clause to justify a law that discriminates among groups of persons."
- Sandra Day O`Conner, _Lawrence v Texas_
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=000&invol=02-102
.
|
|
|
| User: "icono" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
28 Nov 2005 11:41:55 AM |
|
|
"Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
news:438B3EE4.18C8BE75@serv.net...
Truth Hunter wrote:
Do babies burn in Hell?
Recently I found a webpage that all believers in
salvation-through-faith should read. It is entitled "Do Babies
Automatically go to Heaven?" The author, K. B. Napier, argues they do
not. His argument is simple: One must be born again to go to heaven;
babies cannot be born again; therefore babies are doomed.
That is the essence of the Christian message (at least as accepted by
Protestants): To be saved, you must accept Jesus Christ. If you die before
you can accept Jesus Christ, then damn you to Hell.
--
Totally wrong.
Although most Christians, out of ignorance of scripture, would agree with
the concept that someone must independently "accept".
Salvation is not from ANY work or action by the individual.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
29 Nov 2005 08:20:31 AM |
|
|
icono wrote:
"Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
news:438B3EE4.18C8BE75@serv.net...
Truth Hunter wrote:
Do babies burn in Hell?
Recently I found a webpage that all believers in
salvation-through-faith should read. It is entitled "Do Babies
Automatically go to Heaven?" The author, K. B. Napier, argues they do
not. His argument is simple: One must be born again to go to heaven;
babies cannot be born again; therefore babies are doomed.
That is the essence of the Christian message (at least as accepted by
Protestants): To be saved, you must accept Jesus Christ. If you die before
you can accept Jesus Christ, then damn you to Hell.
--
Totally wrong.
Although most Christians, out of ignorance of scripture, would agree with
the concept that someone must independently "accept".
So you would say that Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Knox and every other
theologian of the Protestant Reformation were ignorant of scripture?
Salvation is not from ANY work or action by the individual.
Correct. However, faith is obligatory. To be saved, ONE MUST HAVE FAITH in the
saving power of Jesus Christ. Infants do not have this capacity. Remember that
Christian theology is based very firmly on the doctrine that humanity is
inherently sinful, so wicked and evil that God Himself had to be sacrificed to
remove the taint. Even then, we must continuously strive in faith, and even
then, no one can assume that they will be saved.
That is what the Bible says. Granted, Paul was writing with the entirely
incorrect assumption that Jesus was returning in the next 10 minutes (would that
make Paul a false prophet?) With that incorrect assumption, Paul didn't give a
rat's ***** about infants or the mentally incompetent. But, because of the
Protestant dogma that the Bible and the Bible alone contains everything that is
necessary for salvation, one must stick with what one has. From Genesis to
Revelations, the Bible implies very strongly that a) all humans are bound to
eternal damantion on general principles and b) the one and only way to get out
of Hell is through faith in Jesus Christ. This leads to the conclusion c) that
those incapable of having faith in Jesus Christ can not and will not be saved.
Deal with it.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"[W]e have never held that moral disapproval, without any other asserted
state interest, is a sufficient rationale under the Equal Protection
Clause to justify a law that discriminates among groups of persons."
- Sandra Day O`Conner, _Lawrence v Texas_
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=000&invol=02-102
.
|
|
|
| User: "icono" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
29 Nov 2005 08:56:22 AM |
|
|
"Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
news:438C63AE.CB36AD11@serv.net...
icono wrote:
"Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
news:438B3EE4.18C8BE75@serv.net...
Truth Hunter wrote:
Do babies burn in Hell?
Recently I found a webpage that all believers in
salvation-through-faith should read. It is entitled "Do Babies
Automatically go to Heaven?" The author, K. B. Napier, argues they do
not. His argument is simple: One must be born again to go to heaven;
babies cannot be born again; therefore babies are doomed.
That is the essence of the Christian message (at least as accepted by
Protestants): To be saved, you must accept Jesus Christ. If you die
before
you can accept Jesus Christ, then damn you to Hell.
--
Totally wrong.
Although most Christians, out of ignorance of scripture, would agree with
the concept that someone must independently "accept".
So you would say that Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Knox and every
other
theologian of the Protestant Reformation were ignorant of scripture?
You REALLY need to get an education.
Those stated "no works"
ESPECIALLY Calvin.
Salvation is not from ANY work or action by the individual.
Correct. However, faith is obligatory. To be saved, ONE MUST HAVE FAITH
Faith is GIVEN by God.
Eph 2:8 ( a free gift)
All of Hebrews.
But, then forget it.
It's apparently over your head as you have been educated in error.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "R.L.Measures" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
29 Nov 2005 09:10:26 AM |
|
|
In article <438C63AE.CB36AD11@serv.net>, Gregory Gadow <techbear@serv.net>
wrote:
icono wrote:
"Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
news:438B3EE4.18C8BE75@serv.net...
Truth Hunter wrote:
Do babies burn in Hell?
Recently I found a webpage that all believers in
salvation-through-faith should read. It is entitled "Do Babies
Automatically go to Heaven?" The author, K. B. Napier, argues they do
not. His argument is simple: One must be born again to go to heaven;
babies cannot be born again; therefore babies are doomed.
That is the essence of the Christian message (at least as accepted by
Protestants): To be saved, you must accept Jesus Christ. If you die before
you can accept Jesus Christ, then damn you to Hell.
--
Totally wrong.
Although most Christians, out of ignorance of scripture, would agree with
the concept that someone must independently "accept".
So you would say that Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Knox and every other
theologian of the Protestant Reformation were ignorant of scripture?
Salvation is not from ANY work or action by the individual.
Correct. However, faith is obligatory. To be saved, ONE MUST HAVE FAITH in the
saving power of Jesus Christ. Infants do not have this capacity. Remember that
Christian theology is based very firmly on the doctrine that humanity is
inherently sinful, so wicked and evil that God Himself had to be sacrificed to
remove the taint. Even then, we must continuously strive in faith, and even
then, no one can assume that they will be saved.
That is what the Bible says. Granted, Paul was writing with the entirely
incorrect assumption that Jesus was returning in the next 10 minutes
(would that
make Paul a false prophet?) ...
Saul/Paul was a proponent of ritual cannibalistic sacrifice. The guy
who called himself the Son of man wasn't, and neither was his sibling
James the Just.
--
R.L.Measures, 805-386-3734, www.somis.org
remove _ from e-mail adr
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "skyeyes" |
|
| Title: Re: Do babies burn in Hell? |
28 Nov 2005 05:02:07 PM |
|
|
Truth Hunter wrote:
Do babies burn in Hell?
Not unless you turn up the oven too high. I find that a temperature of
350F is just *perfect*. Don't forget to baste frequently, though.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
.
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
