Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"darth_versive"
Date:	08 Feb 2004 01:41:42 PM
Object:	Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?

How are we to account for the observation that so many creationists,
when repeatedly confronted with overwhelming evidence in support of
the theory of evolution, seem either to not comprehend this evidence,
or to discount it without serious thought, or with clearly specious
reasoning?
It's much too easy to suppose that they really *do* understand it, and
yet for some cynical, ulterior motives, choose to pretend that they
don't. This explanation just doesn't hold water. Some of the things
they say seem so nonsensical that it's hard to believe that anyone
would willingly invite ridicule for saying such things if they really
understood how silly they were, and that people would deliberately
damage their own cause by such statements.
So how are we to account for such behavior? Is there some
psychological "brick wall" that somehow keeps them from understanding
normal science when that science seems to them to contradict some
theological dogma that they hold fast to? If so, just how does this
"brick wall" operate? Clearly, the proponents of modern science
education have not found a way so far to deal with this brick wall,
since it is seemingly still very much in operation in the minds of
creationists, in spite of all their attempts to break through it.
DV
.

User: "Pat Harrington"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	20 Feb 2004 05:37:58 AM

Richard Crawford <rscrawford.penguin@mossroot.remove_waterfowl.com> wrote in message news:<c13iko$iq6$3@woodrow.ucdavis.edu>...

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank wrote:

Daniel Harper wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:44:43 +0000, "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank wrote:

Roy Jose Lorr wrote:

Thus the need for the Absolute Morals in the Five Books of Moses. --

Might I ask why Christians seem to disagree so much about what those
Absolute Morals are and how we should apply them . . . .?

For the record, Lenny, RJL isn't a Christian. I don't know what the hell
he _is_, but he has repeatedly claimed not to be a Christian.

Uh, then I'm not sure why he would give a flying ***** what is written in
the Five Books of Moses . . . . . ?

He claimed at one point to be a Konah, but I have not been able to track
down any information about that particular faith. He believes that only
the Pentateuch is authoritative, and that the rest of the Torah is not
written by God. I've met some *very* traditionalist Jews who believe
this and go by a literal interpretation of the Pentateuch, but they are
rare and... kinda odd.

No, he said he was a Kohan. A descendant of the priestly caste
within the tribe of Levi, in particular, a direct descendant of Aaron,
Moses' brother. He's a descendant of Jewish priests and, if their
were a Temple today, he'd have every right to officiate in it. That
is the essence of his authority plus he seems to be a very clever
chap!

I suppose he might be Jewish, but I've not met very many Jews who were
fundies . . . .

I've met a couple. They were about as impressive as Christian
fundamentalists.

I called for you to come Flank this guy weeks ago, and you're just _now_
showing up? I expected better of you. :->

Sorry, I've been busy popping Uncle Davey's self-righteous bubble. Again.

===============================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"

Creation "Science" Debunked:
http://www.geocities.com/lflank

DebunkCreation Email list:
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DebunkCreation

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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User: "Richard Crawford"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	20 Feb 2004 04:02:11 PM

Pat Harrington wrote:

Richard Crawford <rscrawford.penguin@mossroot.remove_waterfowl.com> wrote in message news:<c13iko$iq6$3@woodrow.ucdavis.edu>...

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank wrote:

Daniel Harper wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:44:43 +0000, "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank wrote:

Roy Jose Lorr wrote:

Thus the need for the Absolute Morals in the Five Books of Moses. --

Might I ask why Christians seem to disagree so much about what those
Absolute Morals are and how we should apply them . . . .?

For the record, Lenny, RJL isn't a Christian. I don't know what the hell
he _is_, but he has repeatedly claimed not to be a Christian.

Uh, then I'm not sure why he would give a flying ***** what is written in
the Five Books of Moses . . . . . ?

You're right, I transposed two letters.
Interesting. I've never met a Kohan before. I've met some interesting
folks in my day -- lots of Christians of every stripes, Baha'is
a-plenty, a Zoroastrian or two, lots of Buddhists (I live in a college
town). Never even heard of a Kohan before.
And I believe you're the first person who has called him "clever".

I suppose he might be Jewish, but I've not met very many Jews who were
fundies . . . .

I've met a couple. They were about as impressive as Christian
fundamentalists.

I called for you to come Flank this guy weeks ago, and you're just _now_
showing up? I expected better of you. :->

User: "Susan S"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	20 Feb 2004 06:22:22 PM

In talk.origins I read this message from Richard Crawford
<rscrawford.penguin@mossroot.remove_waterfowl.com>:

Pat Harrington wrote:

Richard Crawford <rscrawford.penguin@mossroot.remove_waterfowl.com> wrote in message news:<c13iko$iq6$3@woodrow.ucdavis.edu>...

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank wrote:

Daniel Harper wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:44:43 +0000, "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank wrote:

Roy Jose Lorr wrote:

Thus the need for the Absolute Morals in the Five Books of Moses. --

Might I ask why Christians seem to disagree so much about what those
Absolute Morals are and how we should apply them . . . .?

For the record, Lenny, RJL isn't a Christian. I don't know what the hell
he _is_, but he has repeatedly claimed not to be a Christian.

Uh, then I'm not sure why he would give a flying ***** what is written in
the Five Books of Moses . . . . . ?

You're right, I transposed two letters.

Interesting. I've never met a Kohan before. I've met some interesting
folks in my day -- lots of Christians of every stripes, Baha'is
a-plenty, a Zoroastrian or two, lots of Buddhists (I live in a college
town). Never even heard of a Kohan before.

Jews divide themselves into three groups: Kohanim, the high
priests, Levites, the regular priests, and Israel, just plain
folks. These terms continue to have meaning in modern times.
Susan Silberstein
.

User: "Daniel Harper"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	20 Feb 2004 09:47:26 PM

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:22:22 +0000, Susan S wrote:

In talk.origins I read this message from Richard Crawford
<rscrawford.penguin@mossroot.remove_waterfowl.com>:

Pat Harrington wrote:

Richard Crawford <rscrawford.penguin@mossroot.remove_waterfowl.com>
wrote in message news:<c13iko$iq6$3@woodrow.ucdavis.edu>...

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank wrote:

Daniel Harper wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:44:43 +0000, "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank wrote:

Roy Jose Lorr wrote:

Thus the need for the Absolute Morals in the Five Books of Moses.
--

Might I ask why Christians seem to disagree so much about what those
Absolute Morals are and how we should apply them . . . .?

For the record, Lenny, RJL isn't a Christian. I don't know what the
hell he _is_, but he has repeatedly claimed not to be a Christian.

Uh, then I'm not sure why he would give a flying ***** what is written
in the Five Books of Moses . . . . . ?

He claimed at one point to be a Konah, but I have not been able to
track down any information about that particular faith. He believes
that only the Pentateuch is authoritative, and that the rest of the
Torah is not written by God. I've met some *very* traditionalist Jews
who believe this and go by a literal interpretation of the Pentateuch,
but they are rare and... kinda odd.

No, he said he was a Kohan. A descendant of the priestly caste
within the tribe of Levi, in particular, a direct descendant of Aaron,
Moses' brother. He's a descendant of Jewish priests and, if their were
a Temple today, he'd have every right to officiate in it. That is the
essence of his authority plus he seems to be a very clever chap!

You're right, I transposed two letters.

Interesting. I've never met a Kohan before. I've met some interesting
folks in my day -- lots of Christians of every stripes, Baha'is a-plenty,
a Zoroastrian or two, lots of Buddhists (I live in a college town).
Never even heard of a Kohan before.

Jews divide themselves into three groups: Kohanim, the high priests,
Levites, the regular priests, and Israel, just plain folks. These terms
continue to have meaning in modern times.

Is there a ready reference (preferably online, of course ;-> ) that you'd
recommend to learn more about these types of issues? I find myself
strangely (well, considering my hometown, possibly not strangely) ignorant
of the history and practices of Judaism.

Susan Silberstein

--
....and it is my belief that no greater good has ever befallen you in this city
than my service to my God. [...] Wealth does not bring goodness, but goodness
brings wealth and every other blessing, both to the individual and that state.
Plato, quoting Socrates, from The _Apology_
--Daniel Harper
(Change terra to earth for email)
.

User: "Matt Silberstein"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	21 Feb 2004 12:06:02 PM

In talk.origins I read this message from "Daniel Harper"
<daniel_harper@terralink.net>:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:22:22 +0000, Susan S wrote:

In talk.origins I read this message from Richard Crawford
<rscrawford.penguin@mossroot.remove_waterfowl.com>:

Pat Harrington wrote:

Richard Crawford <rscrawford.penguin@mossroot.remove_waterfowl.com>
wrote in message news:<c13iko$iq6$3@woodrow.ucdavis.edu>...

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank wrote:

Daniel Harper wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:44:43 +0000, "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank wrote:

Roy Jose Lorr wrote:

Thus the need for the Absolute Morals in the Five Books of Moses.

[snip]

Interesting. I've never met a Kohan before.

You probably have. Almost certainly any Jew with the name Cohen
is a Kohan (same word).

I've met some interesting
folks in my day -- lots of Christians of every stripes, Baha'is a-plenty,
a Zoroastrian or two, lots of Buddhists (I live in a college town).
Never even heard of a Kohan before.

Jews divide themselves into three groups: Kohanim, the high priests,
Levites, the regular priests, and Israel, just plain folks. These terms
continue to have meaning in modern times.

Please understand that there is no theological divide here, these
are not groups with different views. Kohans are priests. If there
were a Temple they would have certain responsibilities, today
they have a tiny few distinctions. Mostly, IIANM, they can become
ritually unclean easier than other Jews.
As for sources on this issue, I will have to look. It is not a
particularly important issue so it does not show up on its own
all that often.
This link will tell you little of value since it assumes lots of
knowledge.
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article.asp?AID=2805
--
Matt Silberstein
Donate to the C.A.N.D.L.E.S. Museum, burnt down by arson who wrote
"Remember Timothy McVeigh" on the wall.
C.A.N.D.L.E.S. stands for Children of Auschwitz Nazi Deadly Lab Experiments
Survivors.

www.candles-museum.com
.

User: "Daniel Harper"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	21 Feb 2004 06:40:06 PM

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:06:02 +0000, Matt Silberstein wrote:

In talk.origins I read this message from "Daniel Harper"
<daniel_harper@terralink.net>:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:22:22 +0000, Susan S wrote:

In talk.origins I read this message from Richard Crawford
<rscrawford.penguin@mossroot.remove_waterfowl.com>:

Pat Harrington wrote:

Richard Crawford <rscrawford.penguin@mossroot.remove_waterfowl.com>
wrote in message news:<c13iko$iq6$3@woodrow.ucdavis.edu>...

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank wrote:

Daniel Harper wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:44:43 +0000, "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank wrote:

Roy Jose Lorr wrote:

Thus the need for the Absolute Morals in the Five Books of Moses.

[snip]

Interesting. I've never met a Kohan before.

You probably have. Almost certainly any Jew with the name Cohen is a Kohan
(same word).

I've met some interesting
folks in my day -- lots of Christians of every stripes, Baha'is
a-plenty, a Zoroastrian or two, lots of Buddhists (I live in a college
town). Never even heard of a Kohan before.

Jews divide themselves into three groups: Kohanim, the high priests,
Levites, the regular priests, and Israel, just plain folks. These terms
continue to have meaning in modern times.

Ah. That makes my understanding a bit more complete. But the way that RJL
seem to interpret the Hebrew Scriptures seems very different from a
standard Jewish interpretation; i.e. accepting only the Pentateuch as
authoritative, rejecting all commentary on these issues, et cetera. Is
there a viewpoint within traditional Judaism that believes as RJL does?

As for sources on this issue, I will have to look. It is not a
particularly important issue so it does not show up on its own all that
often.

I have very little knowledge in this area, so any information you can
provide will be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

This link will tell you little of value since it assumes lots of
knowledge.

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article.asp?AID=2805

I'll look over it anyway. Again, thanks.
--
....and it is my belief that no greater good has ever befallen you in this city
than my service to my God. [...] Wealth does not bring goodness, but goodness
brings wealth and every other blessing, both to the individual and that state.
Plato, quoting Socrates, from The _Apology_
--Daniel Harper
(Change terra to earth for email)
.

User: "Matt Silberstein"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	23 Feb 2004 10:31:05 PM

In talk.origins I read this message from "Daniel Harper"
<daniel_harper@terralink.net>:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:06:02 +0000, Matt Silberstein wrote:

[snip]

I don't see anything in RJL that looks like a Jewish view. But
there is an ambiguity (based, in part, on my boredom at reading
RJL) in your statement. It is RJL who rejects all commentary,
right? Because Judaism not only is full of commentary, they see
the oral Torah as from God just like the written Torah.

As for sources on this issue, I will have to look. It is not a
particularly important issue so it does not show up on its own all that
often.

I have very little knowledge in this area, so any information you can
provide will be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

This link will tell you little of value since it assumes lots of
knowledge.

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article.asp?AID=2805

I'll look over it anyway. Again, thanks.

There is plenty more interesting than Kohans.
--
Matt Silberstein
Donate to the C.A.N.D.L.E.S. Museum, burnt down by arson who wrote
"Remember Timothy McVeigh" on the wall.
C.A.N.D.L.E.S. stands for Children of Auschwitz Nazi Deadly Lab Experiments
Survivors.

www.candles-museum.com
.

User: "Daniel Harper"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	24 Feb 2004 02:26:13 PM

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 04:31:05 +0000, Matt Silberstein wrote:

In talk.origins I read this message from "Daniel Harper"
<daniel_harper@terralink.net>:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:06:02 +0000, Matt Silberstein wrote:

[snip]

I don't see anything in RJL that looks like a Jewish view. But there is an
ambiguity (based, in part, on my boredom at reading RJL) in your
statement. It is RJL who rejects all commentary, right? Because Judaism
not only is full of commentary, they see the oral Torah as from God just
like the written Torah.

Sorry for the ambiguity. RJL rejects the scriptural authority of
everything _except_ the Pentateuch. I get bored reading him, as well, but
I did have an extended conversation (if you want to call it that) with him
before he stopped responding to me.
I know that Judaism is full of commentary, so of course I understand that
RJL is very likely rejecting mainstream Judaism. I simply, through my own
ignorance, wasn't sure if RJL represented some minority voice that I
wasn't aware of, just as someone like the Christian Reconstructionists
represent a tiny voice within the overall Christian community.

As for sources on this issue, I will have to look. It is not a
particularly important issue so it does not show up on its own all that
often.

I have very little knowledge in this area, so any information you can
provide will be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

This link will tell you little of value since it assumes lots of
knowledge.

http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article.asp?AID=2805

I'll look over it anyway. Again, thanks.

There is plenty more interesting than Kohans.

I read the link and found the viewpoint of the article fascinating. Thanks
for the information.

--
Matt Silberstein

Donate to the C.A.N.D.L.E.S. Museum, burnt down by arson who wrote
"Remember Timothy McVeigh" on the wall.

C.A.N.D.L.E.S. stands for Children of Auschwitz Nazi Deadly Lab
Experiments Survivors.

www.candles-museum.com

User: "\Rev Dr\ Lenny Flank"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	24 Feb 2004 06:09:23 PM

Daniel Harper wrote:
<snip>
I get bored reading him, as well, but

I did have an extended conversation (if you want to call it that) with him
before he stopped responding to me.

<snip>
Did he happen to tell you why his particular religious opinions are any
more authoritative than anyone else's? He seems rather reluctant to
answer it for me . . . .
===============================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked:
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
DebunkCreation Email list:
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DebunkCreation
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.

User: "Daniel Harper"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	24 Feb 2004 10:15:03 PM

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:09:23 +0000, "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank wrote:

Daniel Harper wrote:

<snip>
I get bored reading him, as well, but

I did have an extended conversation (if you want to call it that) with
him before he stopped responding to me.

<snip>

Did he happen to tell you why his particular religious opinions are any
more authoritative than anyone else's? He seems rather reluctant to
answer it for me . . . .

Nope, never did. But I guess you figured that, huh?

=============================================== Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"

Creation "Science" Debunked:
http://www.geocities.com/lflank

DebunkCreation Email list:
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DebunkCreation

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----==
Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

User: "Susan S"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	25 Feb 2004 12:29:24 AM

In talk.origins I read this message from "Daniel Harper"
<daniel_harper@terralink.net>:

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 04:31:05 +0000, Matt Silberstein wrote:

In talk.origins I read this message from "Daniel Harper"
<daniel_harper@terralink.net>:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:06:02 +0000, Matt Silberstein wrote:

[snip]

I don't see anything in RJL that looks like a Jewish view. But there is an
ambiguity (based, in part, on my boredom at reading RJL) in your
statement. It is RJL who rejects all commentary, right? Because Judaism
not only is full of commentary, they see the oral Torah as from God just
like the written Torah.

Sorry for the ambiguity. RJL rejects the scriptural authority of
everything _except_ the Pentateuch. I get bored reading him, as well, but
I did have an extended conversation (if you want to call it that) with him
before he stopped responding to me.

I know that Judaism is full of commentary, so of course I understand that
RJL is very likely rejecting mainstream Judaism. I simply, through my own
ignorance, wasn't sure if RJL represented some minority voice that I
wasn't aware of, just as someone like the Christian Reconstructionists
represent a tiny voice within the overall Christian community.

Commentary is essential. You will recall the adage, "Two Jews,
three opinions." Where there is scripture, there is discussion,
disagreement, opinion, rulings.
Susan Silberstein
[snip]
.

User: "Richard Crawford"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	25 Feb 2004 12:21:48 PM

Susan S wrote:

In talk.origins I read this message from "Daniel Harper"
<daniel_harper@terralink.net>:

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 04:31:05 +0000, Matt Silberstein wrote:

In talk.origins I read this message from "Daniel Harper"
<daniel_harper@terralink.net>:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:06:02 +0000, Matt Silberstein wrote:

[snip]

I don't see anything in RJL that looks like a Jewish view. But there is an
ambiguity (based, in part, on my boredom at reading RJL) in your
statement. It is RJL who rejects all commentary, right? Because Judaism
not only is full of commentary, they see the oral Torah as from God just
like the written Torah.

Sorry for the ambiguity. RJL rejects the scriptural authority of
everything _except_ the Pentateuch. I get bored reading him, as well, but
I did have an extended conversation (if you want to call it that) with him
before he stopped responding to me.

I know that Judaism is full of commentary, so of course I understand that
RJL is very likely rejecting mainstream Judaism. I simply, through my own
ignorance, wasn't sure if RJL represented some minority voice that I
wasn't aware of, just as someone like the Christian Reconstructionists
represent a tiny voice within the overall Christian community.

Commentary is essential. You will recall the adage, "Two Jews,
three opinions." Where there is scripture, there is discussion,
disagreement, opinion, rulings.

I can't think of any religion that has not been enhanced and illuminated
by centuries of commentary and expansion. Islam certainly has a long
history of such, even though the Qur'an was supposed to be the final,
definitive revelation of God to humanity.
The Methodist Church makes frequent reference to the "four-legged
stool": our relationship to God and Christ must be understood in terms
of (1) scripture; (2) tradition; (3) experience; and (4) reason. I've
always thought that this was quite sound, and that eliminating one of
the "legs" would lead to problems. (Hmm, now that I think about it,
though, the Episcopalian Church taught me a three-legged stool; they did
not include experience; but I never thought it was unsound.)
.

User: "Susan S"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	21 Feb 2004 01:31:05 AM

In talk.origins I read this message from "Daniel Harper"
<daniel_harper@terralink.net>:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:22:22 +0000, Susan S wrote:

[snip]

Jews divide themselves into three groups: Kohanim, the high priests,
Levites, the regular priests, and Israel, just plain folks. These terms
continue to have meaning in modern times.

You will find a lot of information at
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp. These books were
published 1901-1906, so do not have up to date information on
some stuff, but are good for the basics.
Matt knows a lot more than I do about things Jewish, so could
given you more references, but the above is what I have on my
Favorites list.
Susan Silberstein
.

User: "Daniel Harper"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	21 Feb 2004 01:54:44 AM

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 07:31:05 +0000, Susan S wrote:

In talk.origins I read this message from "Daniel Harper"
<daniel_harper@terralink.net>:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:22:22 +0000, Susan S wrote:

[snip]

Jews divide themselves into three groups: Kohanim, the high priests,
Levites, the regular priests, and Israel, just plain folks. These terms
continue to have meaning in modern times.

You will find a lot of information at
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp. These books were published
1901-1906, so do not have up to date information on some stuff, but are
good for the basics.

Matt knows a lot more than I do about things Jewish, so could given you
more references, but the above is what I have on my Favorites list.

Susan Silberstein

Thanks. I'll be reading up... some other time. (It's two in the morning
here; I've got to be at work at noon tomorrow.)
--
....and it is my belief that no greater good has ever befallen you in this city
than my service to my God. [...] Wealth does not bring goodness, but goodness
brings wealth and every other blessing, both to the individual and that state.
Plato, quoting Socrates, from The _Apology_
--Daniel Harper
(Change terra to earth for email)
.

User: "Pat Harrington"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	23 Feb 2004 05:21:30 AM

Richard Crawford <rscrawford.penguin@mossroot.remove_waterfowl.com> wrote in message news:<c160bl$16a$2@woodrow.ucdavis.edu>...

Pat Harrington wrote:

Richard Crawford <rscrawford.penguin@mossroot.remove_waterfowl.com> wrote in message news:<c13iko$iq6$3@woodrow.ucdavis.edu>...

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank wrote:

Daniel Harper wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:44:43 +0000, "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank wrote:

Roy Jose Lorr wrote:

Thus the need for the Absolute Morals in the Five Books of Moses. --

Might I ask why Christians seem to disagree so much about what those
Absolute Morals are and how we should apply them . . . .?

For the record, Lenny, RJL isn't a Christian. I don't know what the hell
he _is_, but he has repeatedly claimed not to be a Christian.

Uh, then I'm not sure why he would give a flying ***** what is written in
the Five Books of Moses . . . . . ?

You're right, I transposed two letters.

Interesting. I've never met a Kohan before. I've met some interesting
folks in my day -- lots of Christians of every stripes, Baha'is
a-plenty, a Zoroastrian or two, lots of Buddhists (I live in a college
town). Never even heard of a Kohan before.

And I believe you're the first person who has called him "clever".

By clever, I didn't mean to intend I thought he was necessarily
correct, perhaps just very good at seeing everything through his
belief system. Many of us can "twist" situations around to fit our
beliefs such that they are not challenged; this can be a useful tool
when trying to explain our opinion to others. But it can become a
stumbling block as well. I've always said, "it takes a strong person
to stand up for what they believe in, but it takes an even stronger
person to allow his beliefs to be challenged and then change his
beliefs in the face of new evidence."
Cheers,
Pat

I suppose he might be Jewish, but I've not met very many Jews who were
fundies . . . .

I've met a couple. They were about as impressive as Christian
fundamentalists.

I called for you to come Flank this guy weeks ago, and you're just _now_
showing up? I expected better of you. :->

User: "Roy Jose Lorr"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	23 Feb 2004 04:53:04 AM

\"Rev Dr\" Lenny Flank wrote:

Roy Jose Lorr wrote:

\"Rev Dr\" Lenny Flank wrote:

Roy Jose Lorr wrote:

pan wrote:

How are your spiritual experiences any more reliable then that of
a Hindu?
How would we determine which has the *most* reliable view?

The one which agrees with the Absolute Moral Code has
the 'most reliable view'.
--

Uh, what "Absolute Moral Code" . . . . . . ?

The one in the Five Books of Moses.

Uh, Moses didn't write any of them.

That's right, God did.

Do you mean "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?

Well, let's see:

* African Traditional Religions: One going to take a pointed stick
to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it
hurts. (Yoruba Proverb, Nigeria)

* BAHA'I': And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou
for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself. (Epistle to the
Son of the Wolf, 30 )

* BUDDHISM: Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find
hurtful. (Udana-Varga 5:18)

* CHRISTIANITY: All things whatsoever ye would that man should do
to you, do ye even so to them; for this is the law of the prophets.
(Matthew 7:12) You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Matthew 22.40)

* CONFUCIANISM: Surely it is the maxim of loving-kindness: Do not
do unto others what you would not have them do unto you. (Analects
15:23) ALSO: Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be
treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to
benevolence. (Mencius VII.A.4)

* HINDUISM: This is the sum of duty: Do naught unto others which
would cause you pain if done to you. (Mahabharata 5:1517) ALSO: One
should not behave towards others in a way which is disagreeable to
oneself. This is the essence of morality. All other activities are due
to selfish desire. (Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva 113.8)

* ISLAM: Not one of you is a believer until he loves for his
brother what he loves for himself. (Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 13)

* JAINISM: A man should wander about treating all creatures as he
himself would be treated. (Sutrakritanga 1.11.33)

* JUDAISM: What is hateful to you, do not to your fellowman. That
is the entire law; all the rest is commentary. (Talmud, Shabbat 31a)

* MUSLIM: No one of you is a believer until he desires for his
brother that which he desires for himself. (Sunnah)

* TAOISM: Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain and your
neighbor's loss as your own loss. (T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien)

* WICCA: Rule of Three: Three times what thou givest returns to
thee; Thee only gets what thou dost earn. ALSO: An it harm none, do what
thou wilt. (Wiccan Rede)

* ZOROASTRIANISM: Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do
unto others. (Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29)

"Kindness to all living things is the true religion." - Buddha

All of these work for me. How about you.

Fraid not... some do, some don't... the ones that assert the negative
I can agree with, those that assert the positive I disagree with.

Uh, can you point out some difference between them . . . .?

Can you point out some difference between you and an
ignoramus bereft of comprehension?

What you've shown is what I've been saying all along: when it
comes to humans making correct moral choices, its a crap shoot.

Gee, it sure is a good thing then that we have YOU here to correct us
all, huh . . . . . .

When you're wrong, you're wrong... unless of course, one lives
in an upside down world.

Thus the need for the Absolute Morals in the Five Books of Moses.
--

Might I ask why Christians seem to disagree so much about what those
Absolute Morals are and how we should apply them . . . .?

Ask them.

Might I ask why your religious opinion on the matter is any more
authoriative than anyone else's?

My opinions on the matter come from The authoritative source.

Might I ask if your opinions are just YOUR opinions, or are they God's
Opinions too?

My opinions rely on His.

Or don't you think there is any difference?

If you'd read the thread you wouldn't need to ask all these
dumb questions... I'm probably wrong about that.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.

User: "Tom"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	26 Feb 2004 06:39:53 PM

"Roy Jose Lorr" <mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:4039DD3F.A5EE593F@worldnet.att.net...

\"Rev Dr\" Lenny Flank wrote:

Roy Jose Lorr wrote:

\"Rev Dr\" Lenny Flank wrote:

Roy Jose Lorr wrote:

pan wrote:

How are your spiritual experiences any more reliable then that of
a Hindu?
How would we determine which has the *most* reliable view?

The one which agrees with the Absolute Moral Code has
the 'most reliable view'.
--

Uh, what "Absolute Moral Code" . . . . . . ?

The one in the Five Books of Moses.

Uh, Moses didn't write any of them.

Roy: That's right, God did.

Tom: He did? In what language did he write? How was his penmanship? How many
other things has god authored?

Do you mean "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?

Well, let's see:

* African Traditional Religions: One going to take a pointed

stick

to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it
hurts. (Yoruba Proverb, Nigeria)

* BAHA'I': And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose

thou

for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself. (Epistle to

the

Son of the Wolf, 30 )

* BUDDHISM: Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find
hurtful. (Udana-Varga 5:18)

* CHRISTIANITY: All things whatsoever ye would that man should do
to you, do ye even so to them; for this is the law of the prophets.
(Matthew 7:12) You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Matthew

22.40)

* CONFUCIANISM: Surely it is the maxim of loving-kindness: Do not
do unto others what you would not have them do unto you. (Analects
15:23) ALSO: Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be
treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to
benevolence. (Mencius VII.A.4)

* HINDUISM: This is the sum of duty: Do naught unto others which
would cause you pain if done to you. (Mahabharata 5:1517) ALSO: One
should not behave towards others in a way which is disagreeable to
oneself. This is the essence of morality. All other activities are due
to selfish desire. (Mahabharata, Anusasana Parva 113.8)

* ISLAM: Not one of you is a believer until he loves for his
brother what he loves for himself. (Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 13)

* JAINISM: A man should wander about treating all creatures as he
himself would be treated. (Sutrakritanga 1.11.33)

* JUDAISM: What is hateful to you, do not to your fellowman. That
is the entire law; all the rest is commentary. (Talmud, Shabbat 31a)

* MUSLIM: No one of you is a believer until he desires for his
brother that which he desires for himself. (Sunnah)

* TAOISM: Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain and your
neighbor's loss as your own loss. (T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien)

* WICCA: Rule of Three: Three times what thou givest returns to
thee; Thee only gets what thou dost earn. ALSO: An it harm none, do

what

thou wilt. (Wiccan Rede)

* ZOROASTRIANISM: Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do
unto others. (Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29)

"Kindness to all living things is the true religion." - Buddha

All of these work for me. How about you.

Fraid not... some do, some don't... the ones that assert the negative
I can agree with, those that assert the positive I disagree with.

Uh, can you point out some difference between them . . . .?

Roy: Can you point out some difference between you and an
ignoramus bereft of comprehension?

Tom: Didn't answer the question, I see.

What you've shown is what I've been saying all along: when it
comes to humans making correct moral choices, its a crap shoot.

Gee, it sure is a good thing then that we have YOU here to correct us
all, huh . . . . . .

Roy: When you're wrong, you're wrong... unless of course, one lives
in an upside down world.

Tom: So you know more than the rest of us? You know we are wrong? I say your
god is a figment of your imagination. All you have to do to show this is not
the case is to name one thing that god can on earth do, without the help of
man. You see Roy, your god has the same problem that every god that ever
existed in the minds of man has, he can't do anything on earth without the
help of man.

Thus the need for the Absolute Morals in the Five Books of Moses.
--

Might I ask why Christians seem to disagree so much about what those
Absolute Morals are and how we should apply them . . . .?

Roy: Ask them.

Tom: Might I ask if you aren't going to participate in the discussions why
are you here?

Might I ask why your religious opinion on the matter is any more
authoriative than anyone else's?

Roy: My opinions on the matter come from The authoritative source.

Tom: The Koran? The Book of Mormon? Which source Roy?

Might I ask if your opinions are just YOUR opinions, or are they God's
Opinions too?

Roy: My opinions rely on His.

Tom: That is amazing that you know the opinion of god. Don't know how you
manage to do that Roy.

Or don't you think there is any difference?

Roy: If you'd read the thread you wouldn't need to ask all these
dumb questions... I'm probably wrong about that.

Tom: If you didn't participate in the thread anymore than you have here then
it would be a wasted effort to read the thread.
.

User: "Roy Jose Lorr"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	27 Feb 2004 04:38:54 PM

Tom wrote:

Tom: If you didn't participate in the thread anymore than you have here then
it would be a wasted effort to read the thread.

flank off, lenny.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.

User: "\Rev Dr\ Lenny Flank"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	27 Feb 2004 06:01:08 PM

Roy Jose Lorr wrote:

Tom wrote:

Tom: If you didn't participate in the thread anymore than you have here then
it would be a wasted effort to read the thread.

flank off, lenny.

Good answer, Roy.
===============================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked:
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
DebunkCreation Email list:
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DebunkCreation
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.

User: "\Rev Dr\ Lenny Flank"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	23 Feb 2004 07:08:04 AM

Roy Jose Lorr wrote:

Can you point out some difference between you and an
ignoramus bereft of comprehension?

My, it's good to see that whatever religion it is that you follow has
all the compassion, humility and kindness that I've come to expefct form
fundies.

What you've shown is what I've been saying all along: when it
comes to humans making correct moral choices, its a crap shoot.

Gee, it sure is a good thing then that we have YOU here to correct us
all, huh . . . . . .

When you're wrong, you're wrong...

Why are you right and everyone else wrong.
unless of course, one lives

in an upside down world.

Thus the need for the Absolute Morals in the Five Books of Moses.
--

Might I ask why Christians seem to disagree so much about what those
Absolute Morals are and how we should apply them . . . .?

Ask them.

Answer then.

Might I ask why your religious opinion on the matter is any more
authoriative than anyone else's?

My opinions on the matter come from The authoritative source.

And that is what. Your own mind?

Might I ask if your opinions are just YOUR opinions, or are they God's
Opinions too?

My opinions rely on His.

So do David Koresh's. Why are your opinions different from his?

Or don't you think there is any difference?

If you'd read the thread you wouldn't need to ask all these
dumb questions... I'm probably wrong about that.
--

OK, so you DON'T think there is any difference. . . . . .
Just another self-righteous arrogant fundie who thinks he's so much more
holy than everyone else. <sigh>
===============================================
Lenny Flank
"There are no loose threads in the web of life"
Creation "Science" Debunked:
http://www.geocities.com/lflank
DebunkCreation Email list:
http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/DebunkCreation
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
.

User: "Stranger"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	09 Feb 2004 07:03:21 PM

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C3EF7B.D3372BD0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"What creates authority seems to have to do with 'higher state'. =
Christ, as
I have experienced things, is about the 'perfect' state...not so much
better/worse. Better/worse seems to have no meaning within the =
'perfect'
context. I'm sorry if this seems vague...but 'higher state' is as =
specific
as I can think of. We only get glimpses of this state...and then carry =
the
residuals with us as earthly virtue [hopefully anyway]. It only takes
momentary glimpses however, and one becomes changed.
During such moments upon which we 'experience' this higher state, it is
undeniable as the meaning of life...what's it's all about.
It is later that we question things...and usually get it wrong; e.g. my
explanations here."
This sounds a lot like Schizoprhenia, i think you should see a doctor!
All your feeling must be nothing more then a mental high, hope they dont =
let you lead people around.
-Stranger
To truthfully believe in a doctrine such as after life, without =
questioning.
Is to base it on "naivety / ignorance" and "fear / arrogance".
------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C3EF7B.D3372BD0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2734.1600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>"What creates authority seems to =
have to do with=20
'higher state'.  Christ, as<BR>I have experienced things, is about =
the=20
'perfect' state...not so much<BR>better/worse.  Better/worse seems =
to have=20
no meaning within the 'perfect'<BR>context.  I'm sorry if this =
seems=20
vague...but 'higher state' is as specific<BR>as I can think of.  We =
only=20
get glimpses of this state...and then carry the<BR>residuals with us as =
earthly=20
virtue [hopefully anyway].  It only takes<BR>momentary glimpses =
however,=20
and one becomes changed.<BR><BR>During such moments upon which we =
'experience'=20
this higher state, it is<BR>undeniable as the meaning of life...what's =
it's all=20
about.<BR>It is later that we question things...and usually get it =
wrong; e.g.=20
my<BR>explanations here."</I></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This sounds a lot like Schizoprhenia, i =
think you=20
should see a doctor!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All your feeling must be nothing more =
then a mental=20
high, hope they dont let you lead people around.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>-Stranger</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To truthfully believe in a doctrine such as after life, without=20
questioning.<BR>Is to base it on "naivety / ignorance" and "fear /=20
arrogance".</DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C3EF7B.D3372BD0--
.

User: "Diederik"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	10 Feb 2004 07:45:23 PM

"Stranger" <spinner@xs4all.nl> wrote in message news:<40282e41$0$189$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>...

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C3EF7B.D3372BD0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"What creates authority seems to have to do with 'higher state'. =
Christ, as
I have experienced things, is about the 'perfect' state...not so much
better/worse. Better/worse seems to have no meaning within the =
'perfect'
context. I'm sorry if this seems vague...but 'higher state' is as =
specific
as I can think of. We only get glimpses of this state...and then carry =
the
residuals with us as earthly virtue [hopefully anyway]. It only takes
momentary glimpses however, and one becomes changed.

During such moments upon which we 'experience' this higher state, it is
undeniable as the meaning of life...what's it's all about.
It is later that we question things...and usually get it wrong; e.g. my
explanations here."

This sounds a lot like Schizoprhenia, i think you should see a doctor!
All your feeling must be nothing more then a mental high, hope they dont =
let you lead people around.

-Stranger

To truthfully believe in a doctrine such as after life, without =
questioning.
Is to base it on "naivety / ignorance" and "fear / arrogance".

------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C3EF7B.D3372BD0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2734.1600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>"What creates authority seems to =
have to do with=20
'higher state'.  Christ, as<BR>I have experienced things, is about =
the=20
'perfect' state...not so much<BR>better/worse.  Better/worse seems =
to have=20
no meaning within the 'perfect'<BR>context.  I'm sorry if this =
seems=20
vague...but 'higher state' is as specific<BR>as I can think of.  We =
only=20
get glimpses of this state...and then carry the<BR>residuals with us as =
earthly=20
virtue [hopefully anyway].  It only takes<BR>momentary glimpses =
however,=20
and one becomes changed.<BR><BR>During such moments upon which we =
'experience'=20
this higher state, it is<BR>undeniable as the meaning of life...what's =
it's all=20
about.<BR>It is later that we question things...and usually get it =
wrong; e.g.=20
my<BR>explanations here."</I></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This sounds a lot like Schizoprhenia, i =
think you=20
should see a doctor!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All your feeling must be nothing more =
then a mental=20
high, hope they dont let you lead people around.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>-Stranger</DIV>

Sounds more like temporal lobe epilipsy to me. I would recommend a neurologist.
Diederik

<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To truthfully believe in a doctrine such as after life, without=20
questioning.<BR>Is to base it on "naivety / ignorance" and "fear /=20
arrogance".</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C3EF7B.D3372BD0--

User: "Geoff"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	08 Feb 2004 08:55:23 PM

""Rev Dr" Lenny Flank" <lflank_nospam@ij.net> wrote in message
news:4026dbf5_4@corp.newsgroups.com...

tooly wrote:

I say take the best of all worlds...and assimilate. If nothing else,

the

bible is surely insight into the ideals of the human creature...and if
structures for living to make this creature most happy, to give him

"cause"

for the most enobling acheivements and highest conditions for experience
[through fellow humans], that document should certainly be consulted in

some

way.

Fine with me. That, of course, is equally true for the Baghavad Gita,
the Koran, the Tao te Ching, and pretty much any other
religious/moral/ethics book you'd like to name. So why limit ourselves
just to one particular book? Why leave out all the rest?

Jeepers. Some theist starts patting himself on the back for being so
open-minded and you have to slap him down like that. You are cruel.
Wish I had said it.
.

User: "ta"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	08 Feb 2004 10:03:34 PM

"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:JFCVb.6670$032.24544@attbi_s53...

""Rev Dr" Lenny Flank" <lflank_nospam@ij.net> wrote in message
news:4026dbf5_4@corp.newsgroups.com...

tooly wrote:

I say take the best of all worlds...and assimilate. If nothing else,

the

bible is surely insight into the ideals of the human creature...and if
structures for living to make this creature most happy, to give him

"cause"

for the most enobling acheivements and highest conditions for

experience

[through fellow humans], that document should certainly be consulted

some

way.

Jeepers. Some theist starts patting himself on the back for being so
open-minded and you have to slap him down like that. You are cruel.

Wish I had said it.

Your arrogance and closed-mindedness is no more palatable than Jerry
Falwell's. This is not a good thing.
.

User: "Roy Jose Lorr"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	16 Feb 2004 12:37:37 PM

\"Rev Dr\" Lenny Flank wrote:

tooly wrote:

I say take the best of all worlds...and assimilate. If nothing else, the
bible is surely insight into the ideals of the human creature...and if
structures for living to make this creature most happy, to give him "cause"
for the most enobling acheivements and highest conditions for experience
[through fellow humans], that document should certainly be consulted in some
way.

All save one ( Five Books of Moses, Genesis - Deuteronomy)
prescribe mixes of moral and immoral behavior.
--
The last stage of
utopian sentimentalism
is homicidal mania.
.

User: "Mujin"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	16 Feb 2004 12:48:33 PM

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:37:37 +0000 (UTC), Roy Jose Lorr
<mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

\"Rev Dr\" Lenny Flank wrote:

tooly wrote:

All save one ( Five Books of Moses, Genesis - Deuteronomy)
prescribe mixes of moral and immoral behavior.

Please provide explicit examples of immoral behaviour prescribed by
any of the books mentioned by Lenny.
--
K
When a father helps a son, both smile; but when a son must help his father, both cry.
Jewish Proverb
.

User: "Roy Jose Lorr"
Title: Re: Do creationists have brick walls in their minds?	16 Feb 2004 10:00:31 PM

Mujin wrote:

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:37:37 +0000 (UTC), Roy Jose Lorr
<mosestorah@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

\"Rev Dr\" Lenny Flank wrote:

tooly wrote: