<panamfloyd@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1143096388.454218.299840@

The myth of secular moral chaos has been disproven in
modern, secular nations throughout the world. Perhaps that's the first
myth that should go..but we'll get around to yours eventually.

The proof: religious societies are *less* moral than secular ones!!
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

M.D.

james.prendergast@gmail.com wrote:

Hugh Betcha wrote:

Robert J. Kolker wrote:

Sound of Trumpet wrote:

religion of which he is blessedly free. I wonder if
Rationalists--excuse me, "Brights"--are going to seriously begin
speaking of themselves as some sort of incipient Master Race.

Not a Master Race. Just a more intelligent group. Why must we pretend
nonsense is true to live a decent life? Facts and logic should be quite
sufficient.

It hardly is, and what is a decent life? Once you shrug off that
horrible affliction called 'a belief in God' and take that great
evolutionary leap forward you must fill that void left by Him with
absolutes of your own making. So why not seize power and murder/oppress
everyone who does not believe as you direct? Why would you let the
moral constraints of a 'silly superstition' stop you from taking what
is rightfully yours? The blood on the hands of 'rationalists'
throughout history from the Jacobins to the communists attests to this.
They failed; but perhaps you can succeed.

You are a very scary man. If the belief that your inivsible friend in
the sky will punish you for being naughty is the only thing that stops
you from going on a murderous rampage then I am glad you've been
brainwashed. If you claim your sense of morality is derived solely from
fear of supernatural reprisal then I hope I never meet you.

Look up Kohlberg's theory of moral development especially the stages of
moral development he describes.
http://www.haverford.edu/psych/ddavis/p109g/kohlberg.stages.html

"Level I: Preconventional/Premoral
Moral values reside in external, quasi-physical events, or in bad acts.
The child is responsive to rules and evaluative labels, but views them
in terms of pleasant or unpleasant consequences of actions, or in terms
of the physical power of those who impose the rules.
Stage 1: Obedience and punishment orientation

* Egocentric deference to superior power or prestige, or a
trouble-avoiding set.
* Objective responsibility.

Stage 2: Naively egoistic orientation

* Right action is that which is instrumental in satisfying the
self's needs and occasionally others'.
* Relativism of values to each actor's needs and perspectives.
* Naive egalitarianism,orientation to exchange and reciprocity. "

It seems you are at level 1, stage 1 ie. the intellectual and empathic
capacity of a toddler.

Let me help you out and quote Stage 3 (I *assume* that's where you're
at)

"Level III: Postconventional/Self-Accepted Moral Principles
Morality is defined in terms of conformity to shared standards,rights,
or duties apart from supporting authority. The standards conformed to
are internal, and action-decisions are based on an inner process of
thought and judgement concerning right and wrong.
Stage 5: Contractual/legalistic orientation

* Norms of right and wrong are defined in terms of laws or
institutionalized rules which seem to have a rational basis.
* When conflict arises between individual needs and law or
contract, though sympathetic to the former, the individual believes the
latter must prevail because of its greater functional rationality for
society, the majority will and welfare.

Stage 6: The morality of individual principles of conscience

* Orientation not only toward existing social rules, but also
toward the conscience as a directing agent, mutual trust and respect,
and principles of moral choice involving logical universalities and
consistency.
* Action is controlled by internalized ideals that exert a pressure
to act accordingly regardless of the reactions of others in the
immediate environment.
* If one acts otherwise, self-condemnation and guilt result."

What we have here is a set of ethical principles. That's all fine and
dandy, but they can be applied to a broad range of *moral* principles.
Your misconception is that Christian (orthodox, anyhow) morality is
based simply on a fear of punishment. That's complete nonsense. We hold
all human beings to be made in the image of God; and therefore crowned
with all the glory and dignity that that implies. This truth alone
would be enough to guide us to the right choices; knowing not only what
is right, but *why* it is right.... but we also have the natural law;
the conscience that you assume remembers ethical rules we believe
remembers moral ones. All in all, we occupy Stage 4 on your little
scale.

james.prendergast@gmail.com wrote:

Hugh Betcha wrote:

Robert J. Kolker wrote:

Sound of Trumpet wrote:

religion of which he is blessedly free. I wonder if
Rationalists--excuse me, "Brights"--are going to seriously begin
speaking of themselves as some sort of incipient Master Race.

Not a Master Race. Just a more intelligent group. Why must we pretend
nonsense is true to live a decent life? Facts and logic should be quite
sufficient.

It hardly is, and what is a decent life? Once you shrug off that
horrible affliction called 'a belief in God' and take that great
evolutionary leap forward you must fill that void left by Him with
absolutes of your own making. So why not seize power and murder/oppress
everyone who does not believe as you direct? Why would you let the
moral constraints of a 'silly superstition' stop you from taking what
is rightfully yours? The blood on the hands of 'rationalists'
throughout history from the Jacobins to the communists attests to this.
They failed; but perhaps you can succeed.

You are a very scary man. If the belief that your inivsible friend in
the sky will punish you for being naughty is the only thing that stops
you from going on a murderous rampage then I am glad you've been
brainwashed. If you claim your sense of morality is derived solely from
fear of supernatural reprisal then I hope I never meet you.

Look up Kohlberg's theory of moral development especially the stages of
moral development he describes.
http://www.haverford.edu/psych/ddavis/p109g/kohlberg.stages.html

"Level I: Preconventional/Premoral
Moral values reside in external, quasi-physical events, or in bad acts.
The child is responsive to rules and evaluative labels, but views them
in terms of pleasant or unpleasant consequences of actions, or in terms
of the physical power of those who impose the rules.
Stage 1: Obedience and punishment orientation

* Egocentric deference to superior power or prestige, or a
trouble-avoiding set.
* Objective responsibility.

Stage 2: Naively egoistic orientation

* Right action is that which is instrumental in satisfying the
self's needs and occasionally others'.
* Relativism of values to each actor's needs and perspectives.
* Naive egalitarianism,orientation to exchange and reciprocity. "

It seems you are at level 1, stage 1 ie. the intellectual and empathic
capacity of a toddler.

Let me help you out and quote Stage 3 (I *assume* that's where you're
at)

"Level III: Postconventional/Self-Accepted Moral Principles
Morality is defined in terms of conformity to shared standards,rights,
or duties apart from supporting authority. The standards conformed to
are internal, and action-decisions are based on an inner process of
thought and judgement concerning right and wrong.
Stage 5: Contractual/legalistic orientation

* Norms of right and wrong are defined in terms of laws or
institutionalized rules which seem to have a rational basis.

* When conflict arises between individual needs and law or
contract, though sympathetic to the former, the individual believes the
latter must prevail because of its greater functional rationality for
society, the majority will and welfare.

Stage 6: The morality of individual principles of conscience
* Orientation not only toward existing social rules, but also
toward the conscience as a directing agent, mutual trust and respect,
and principles of moral choice involving logical universalities and
consistency.

What we have here is a set of ethical principles. That's all fine and
dandy, but they can be applied to a broad range of *moral* principles.

Your misconception is that Christian (orthodox, anyhow) morality is
based simply on a fear of punishment. That's complete nonsense.

We hold
all human beings to be made in the image of God; and therefore crowned
with all the glory and dignity that that implies.

This truth alone
would be enough to guide us to the right choices; knowing not only what
is right, but *why* it is right.... but we also have the natural law;

the conscience that you assume remembers ethical rules we believe
remembers moral ones.

All in all, we occupy Stage 4 on your little
scale.

Your misconception is that Christian (orthodox, anyhow) morality is based
simply on a fear of punishment. That's complete nonsense.