Religions > Atheism > Do you have a hard time dealing with people who have a loss in their lives?
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Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Zooropa" |
| Date: |
19 Sep 2006 02:40:21 PM |
| Object: |
Do you have a hard time dealing with people who have a loss in their lives? |
I am a member of another board that is multi-religious, we actually get
along if you can believe it. But people always make posts asking
everyone to "pray" for this or that, someone they lost, or someone who
got hurt, or other troubles in their lives.
I never know what to say, I USED to say I'd pray. But I don't do that
now. I usually say things like: "If I can do anything for you let me
know." That kind of thing, but really...I am not going to say I'll
pray.
One time a woman said to me "Your positive thoughts will reach those in
need." I finally had to say "No they won't! LOL...I'm not sending
thoughts...thoughts don't DO anything."
On this same topic I remember once I told one woman to call me, her
nephew had died in a car wreck, very young, only 23, recently married,
it was very tragic. I told her to call me if she needed to talk any
time. So she did, we talked for hours, she told me it helped. I
imagine that did her more good than me kneeling and talking to some
invisible power that I don't actually believe exists.
(Sorry for rambling...this is also venting as I'm a closet atheist and
this is one of the few places I can talk about these things.)
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Do you have a hard time dealing with people who have a loss in their lives? |
20 Sep 2006 04:41:17 AM |
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On 19 Sep 2006 12:40:21 -0700, "Zooropa" <Zooropa.Lady@gmail.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <1158694821.756333.200090@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>
I am a member of another board that is multi-religious, we actually get
along if you can believe it. But people always make posts asking
everyone to "pray" for this or that, someone they lost, or someone who
got hurt, or other troubles in their lives.
I never know what to say, I USED to say I'd pray. But I don't do that
now. I usually say things like: "If I can do anything for you let me
know." That kind of thing, but really...I am not going to say I'll
pray.
One time a woman said to me "Your positive thoughts will reach those in
need." I finally had to say "No they won't! LOL...I'm not sending
thoughts...thoughts don't DO anything."
On this same topic I remember once I told one woman to call me, her
nephew had died in a car wreck, very young, only 23, recently married,
it was very tragic. I told her to call me if she needed to talk any
time. So she did, we talked for hours, she told me it helped. I
imagine that did her more good than me kneeling and talking to some
invisible power that I don't actually believe exists.
(Sorry for rambling...this is also venting as I'm a closet atheist and
this is one of the few places I can talk about these things.)
You are saying exactly the right things.
Honestly.
Keep it up, and be proud that you are *actually* helping folks to cope
with their emotions and reality, rather than dishing out empty
promises.
Most people do not reach your level of intellectual maturity and
honesty in ages, if ever.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Do you have a hard time dealing with people who have a loss in their lives? |
28 Sep 2006 06:14:54 PM |
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On 19 Sep 2006 12:40:21 -0700, "Zooropa" <Zooropa.Lady@gmail.com> wrote
in alt.atheism
I am a member of another board that is multi-religious, we actually get
along if you can believe it. But people always make posts asking
everyone to "pray" for this or that, someone they lost, or someone who
got hurt, or other troubles in their lives.
I never know what to say, I USED to say I'd pray. But I don't do that
now. I usually say things like: "If I can do anything for you let me
know." That kind of thing, but really...I am not going to say I'll
pray.
One time a woman said to me "Your positive thoughts will reach those in
need." I finally had to say "No they won't! LOL...I'm not sending
thoughts...thoughts don't DO anything."
On this same topic I remember once I told one woman to call me, her
nephew had died in a car wreck, very young, only 23, recently married,
it was very tragic. I told her to call me if she needed to talk any
time. So she did, we talked for hours, she told me it helped. I
imagine that did her more good than me kneeling and talking to some
invisible power that I don't actually believe exists.
It did. Being a 'sounding board' does much good.
(Sorry for rambling...this is also venting as I'm a closet atheist and
this is one of the few places I can talk about these things.)
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Do you have a hard time dealing with people who have a loss in their lives? |
19 Sep 2006 03:17:36 PM |
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On 19 Sep 2006 12:40:21 -0700, in alt.atheism , "Zooropa"
<Zooropa.Lady@gmail.com> in
<1158694821.756333.200090@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com> wrote:
I am a member of another board that is multi-religious, we actually get
along if you can believe it. But people always make posts asking
everyone to "pray" for this or that, someone they lost, or someone who
got hurt, or other troubles in their lives.
I never know what to say, I USED to say I'd pray. But I don't do that
now. I usually say things like: "If I can do anything for you let me
know." That kind of thing, but really...I am not going to say I'll
pray.
Offer condolence, caring, whatever. The words really do not matter at
those times. Nor are they a time to have a "rational" discussion of
values. When someone is hurting salve the hurt.
One time a woman said to me "Your positive thoughts will reach those in
need." I finally had to say "No they won't! LOL...I'm not sending
thoughts...thoughts don't DO anything."
And, yet, people are comforted "knowing" that others care, even if
they don't speak to those others. So there is a sense in which your
thoughts do help.
On this same topic I remember once I told one woman to call me, her
nephew had died in a car wreck, very young, only 23, recently married,
it was very tragic. I told her to call me if she needed to talk any
time. So she did, we talked for hours, she told me it helped. I
imagine that did her more good than me kneeling and talking to some
invisible power that I don't actually believe exists.
Yes/no. The process of kneeling (or sitting or walking) and talking,
to people there or not, live, dead, or imaginary, does seem to help
quite a bit.
(Sorry for rambling...this is also venting as I'm a closet atheist and
this is one of the few places I can talk about these things.)
Not a problem. Given the venting we see yours was fresh air.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
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| User: "Budikka666" |
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| Title: Re: Do you have a hard time dealing with people who have a loss in their lives? |
19 Sep 2006 04:55:55 PM |
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Zooropa asked:
Do you have a hard time dealing with people who have a loss in their
lives?
Yep. We have a lot of issues in a.a with people who appear to have
lost their brain - or at least lost functionality in it.
We try to help them, but in most cases, nothing can be done. Prayer is
demonstrated not to work. Insults do seem to be efficacious reducing
chronic inflammations.
Budikka
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: Do you have a hard time dealing with people who have a loss in their lives? |
19 Sep 2006 03:19:58 PM |
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Zooropa wrote:
I am a member of another board that is multi-religious, we actually get
along if you can believe it. But people always make posts asking
everyone to "pray" for this or that, someone they lost, or someone who
got hurt, or other troubles in their lives.
I never know what to say, I USED to say I'd pray. But I don't do that
now. I usually say things like: "If I can do anything for you let me
know." That kind of thing, but really...I am not going to say I'll
pray.
One time a woman said to me "Your positive thoughts will reach those in
need." I finally had to say "No they won't! LOL...I'm not sending
thoughts...thoughts don't DO anything."
On this same topic I remember once I told one woman to call me, her
nephew had died in a car wreck, very young, only 23, recently married,
it was very tragic. I told her to call me if she needed to talk any
time. So she did, we talked for hours, she told me it helped. I
imagine that did her more good than me kneeling and talking to some
invisible power that I don't actually believe exists.
(Sorry for rambling...this is also venting as I'm a closet atheist and
this is one of the few places I can talk about these things.)
When someone has had a tragic loss or a reversal in their lives, many
theists will say, "I'll pray for you." I have always found such
statements deliberately offensive and contemptuous of the person's
pain. It gives the theists the opportunity to appear that they are
caring individuals while relieving themselves of the responsibility to
do anything that would actually make them so. They're not doing it to
make you feel better...they're doing it to make themselves look better.
Many say "I'll pray for you" because it is the only sort of assistance
they are capable of or can be bothered to give. Its posturing that
costs them nothing and it correspondingly helps you just as much. If
they were truly caring individuals they would not pray...they would
help. As Colonel Ingersoll said, "Hands that do are far better than
lips that pray." Most theists simply can't do, it's too much work, it's
too much effort....so they pray instead. Its easier for them.
All of us here have suffered tragic losses and many have posted about
it here. It is rare when I participate in such threads. Not because I'm
unsympathetic but because I am realistic about my inabilities (in most
cases) to offer concrete help. I can't help everyone. No one can.
Neither would I wish to sound insincere by offering assistance I am not
in a position to provide. Those who have known me for years on this
group know that I am available to discuss things if they need to. I'm
not that hard to track down. I care for people too much to offer them
false promises or empty platitudes such as prayer provides. When people
are hurting, they need something real...something tangible. Prayer
doesn't provide it.
When someone tells me, "I'll pray for you," when something bad has
happened, it is a tacit admission that they neither have the time,
inclination or desire to help. It's the politically correct way of
saying FOAD.
Rich Goranson
Amherst, NY, USA
aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1
EAC Department of Applied Rattan Usage
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| User: "L. Raymond" |
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| Title: Re: Do you have a hard time dealing with people who have a loss in their lives? |
19 Sep 2006 03:07:09 PM |
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Zooropa wrote:
On this same topic I remember once I told one woman to call me, her
nephew had died in a car wreck, very young, only 23, recently married,
it was very tragic. I told her to call me if she needed to talk any
time. So she did, we talked for hours, she told me it helped. I
imagine that did her more good than me kneeling and talking to some
invisible power that I don't actually believe exists.
My feelings have always been that people who elect to pray are simply
those are completely lacking in sympathy. Direct, actual human contact
will always help a person who needs support. Saying to someone, "I'm
here when you need me" is 1000 times more beneficial than telling
somebody I'll think about your troubles while I go on with my own life,
which is all these people are saying.
--
L. Raymond
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: Do you have a hard time dealing with people who have a loss in their lives? |
19 Sep 2006 04:34:23 PM |
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On Tue, 19 Sep 2006 15:07:09 -0500, in alt.atheism , "L. Raymond"
<badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> in
<n743pugalipm.eojz4igh06jt$.dlg@40tude.net> wrote:
Zooropa wrote:
On this same topic I remember once I told one woman to call me, her
nephew had died in a car wreck, very young, only 23, recently married,
it was very tragic. I told her to call me if she needed to talk any
time. So she did, we talked for hours, she told me it helped. I
imagine that did her more good than me kneeling and talking to some
invisible power that I don't actually believe exists.
My feelings have always been that people who elect to pray are simply
those are completely lacking in sympathy.
Then I will guess that you have never actually met anyone who prays. I
know plenty who pray, some of them also serve food to the poor,
comfort the mourners*, and work for change in the world. Sure seems
like sympathy to me.
*This is a Jewish practice. You go to the homes of those who have
recently had a loss and sit with them and pray with them. You do this
for strangers, not simply family and friends. And it helps quite a
bit.
Direct, actual human contact
will always help a person who needs support. Saying to someone, "I'm
here when you need me" is 1000 times more beneficial than telling
somebody I'll think about your troubles while I go on with my own life,
which is all these people are saying.
Assuming that you actually mean it and can be there. Now why do you
think it is one or the other, pray or be there for them?
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
.
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