Religions > Atheism > Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as obvious as I see it.
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Paul Robinson" |
| Date: |
23 May 2005 07:12:35 PM |
| Object: |
Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as obvious as I see it. |
I have discovered something I consider "the fourth way." Perhaps there
is more than one, and perhaps it's not as obvious as it is to me.
Generally I understand most people see the opinions of human theology
as broken up into three classes: (1) belief in some Supreme being(s)
(Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, Buddhism, the norsk gods, etc.); (2)
non-belief in this entity/entities (atheism), and (3) my own standing,
which is agnosticism which rejects both of the above.
But there is a fourth way. There is at least one fourth way. Maybe
there are others (a fifth way, a sixth way, etc.) I would like to hear
other people's arguments, if they have any.
No, I'm not referring to some far out crazy idea (UFO visitation, for
example, which I think can be classed as #1), but some reasonable
explanation that is compatible with this world and our existence that
does not involve the tenets of either a claim in an all powerful,
supreme being and a claim of nothing at all.
And if you don't believe there is another option, then maybe the fourth
way isn't as obvious as I think it is. Or maybe there is yet another
fourth way than the one I'm thinking of.
I do not wish to poison the well by offering my hypothesis of the
fourth way that I am thinking of at this time until I hear of any other
opinions.
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| User: "Jim07D5" |
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| Title: Re: Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as obvious as I see it. |
24 May 2005 07:17:50 AM |
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"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> said:
I have discovered something I consider "the fourth way." Perhaps there
is more than one, and perhaps it's not as obvious as it is to me.
Generally I understand most people see the opinions of human theology
as broken up into three classes: (1) belief in some Supreme being(s)
(Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, Buddhism, the norsk gods, etc.); (2)
non-belief in this entity/entities (atheism), and (3) my own standing,
which is agnosticism which rejects both of the above.
But there is a fourth way. There is at least one fourth way. Maybe
there are others (a fifth way, a sixth way, etc.) I would like to hear
other people's arguments, if they have any.
No, I'm not referring to some far out crazy idea (UFO visitation, for
example, which I think can be classed as #1), but some reasonable
explanation that is compatible with this world and our existence that
does not involve the tenets of either a claim in an all powerful,
supreme being and a claim of nothing at all.
And if you don't believe there is another option, then maybe the fourth
way isn't as obvious as I think it is. Or maybe there is yet another
fourth way than the one I'm thinking of.
I do not wish to poison the well by offering my hypothesis of the
fourth way that I am thinking of at this time until I hear of any other
opinions.
If you meet the Buddha on the road...
http://freedomlaw.com/sheldonk.htm
Jim07D5
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as obvious as I see it. |
24 May 2005 09:56:12 AM |
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"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in
news:1116893555.599034.6660@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
I have discovered something I consider "the fourth way." Perhaps there
is more than one, and perhaps it's not as obvious as it is to me.
That's what they call Gurdjieff's teachings.
http://www.apollo.org/
http://www.rahul.net/raithel/otfw/
Pile of crap.
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
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| User: "Peacenik" |
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| Title: Re: Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as obvious as I see it. |
24 May 2005 07:52:04 AM |
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"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1116893555.599034.6660@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I have discovered something I consider "the fourth way." Perhaps there
is more than one, and perhaps it's not as obvious as it is to me.
Generally I understand most people see the opinions of human theology
as broken up into three classes: (1) belief in some Supreme being(s)
(Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, Buddhism, the norsk gods, etc.); (2)
non-belief in this entity/entities (atheism), and (3) my own standing,
which is agnosticism which rejects both of the above.
There is belief, and there is non-belief. Atheism is the logical complement
of theism.
Agnosticism has to do with knowledge, and is independent of theism/atheism,
which has to do with belief.
An agnostic says it's impossible to know whether or not god exists, so it is
possible to be an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist.
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| User: "Dale" |
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| Title: Re: Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as obvious as I see it. |
23 May 2005 09:21:55 PM |
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"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1116893555.599034.6660@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I have discovered something I consider "the fourth way." Perhaps there
is more than one, and perhaps it's not as obvious as it is to me.
[...]
And if you don't believe there is another option, then maybe the fourth
way isn't as obvious as I think it is. Or maybe there is yet another
fourth way than the one I'm thinking of.
Well, there's tao.
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
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| Title: Re: Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as obvious as I see it. |
23 May 2005 07:46:19 PM |
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"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1116893555.599034.6660@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I have discovered something I consider "the fourth way." Perhaps there
is more than one, and perhaps it's not as obvious as it is to me.
Generally I understand most people see the opinions of human theology
as broken up into three classes:
That is your view. I think you are incorrect to ascribe
it to 'most people'.
(1) belief in some Supreme being(s)
(Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, Buddhism, the norsk gods, etc.); (2)
non-belief in this entity/entities (atheism), and (3) my own standing,
which is agnosticism which rejects both of the above.
I often see 'atheism' vs 'strong atheism' discussed, particularly
in this news group.
Just plain 'atheism' seems fairly indistinguishable from
what you call agnosticism. It is basically, "I have no reason
to believe in a god".
'strong atheism' is basically, "I believe there are no gods".
It seems you are confusing 'atheism' and 'strong atheism',
at least as they are commonly used here.
Read this:
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html
<snip>
--
rb #2187
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| User: "Uncle Buck" |
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| Title: Re: Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as obvious as I see it. |
23 May 2005 10:57:49 PM |
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On Tue, 24 May 2005 00:46:19 GMT, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"
<stoshu@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote:
"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1116893555.599034.6660@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I have discovered something I consider "the fourth way." Perhaps there
is more than one, and perhaps it's not as obvious as it is to me.
Generally I understand most people see the opinions of human theology
as broken up into three classes:
That is your view. I think you are incorrect to ascribe
it to 'most people'.
(1) belief in some Supreme being(s)
(Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, Buddhism, the norsk gods, etc.); (2)
non-belief in this entity/entities (atheism), and (3) my own standing,
which is agnosticism which rejects both of the above.
I often see 'atheism' vs 'strong atheism' discussed, particularly
in this news group.
Just plain 'atheism' seems fairly indistinguishable from
what you call agnosticism. It is basically, "I have no reason
to believe in a god".
Taking it one step further, "just plain atheism" can also be conveyed
with, "I have no reason to even consider the concept of belief in a
god or gods."
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as obvious as I see it. |
23 May 2005 10:46:48 PM |
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"Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote in message
news:1116893555.599034.6660@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
I have discovered something I consider "the fourth way." Perhaps there
is more than one, and perhaps it's not as obvious as it is to me.
Generally I understand most people see the opinions of human theology
as broken up into three classes: (1) belief in some Supreme being(s)
(Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, Buddhism, the norsk gods, etc.); (2)
non-belief in this entity/entities (atheism), and (3) my own standing,
which is agnosticism which rejects both of the above.
How does that work?
If I ask you if you believe in a god, how do you answer? Note I am not
asking if a god exists, I am asking about your state of belief concerning
gods. Surely you have one. What is it?
As far as I can tell, someone either believes something, or they don't.
Belief seems to be a completely binary proposition. Trying to claim a middle
ground by saying "I don't know" is basically saying "No, I don't believe in
gods" because you're not saying "Yes, I DO believe in gods".
If you can't say "Yes, I believe in gods", then you don't.
There IS no middle ground, no third option.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "Niels van der Linden" |
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| Title: Re: Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as obvious as I see it. |
23 May 2005 07:23:43 PM |
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I do not wish to poison the well by offering my hypothesis of the
fourth way that I am thinking of at this time until I hear of any other
opinions.
Just spill it out. We're used to smallmindedness.
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as obvious as I see it. |
24 May 2005 08:51:17 AM |
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In alt.atheism on 23 May 2005 17:12:35 -0700, "Paul Robinson"
<paul@paul-robinson.us> let us all know that:
I have discovered something I consider "the fourth way." Perhaps there
is more than one, and perhaps it's not as obvious as it is to me.
Generally I understand most people see the opinions of human theology
as broken up into three classes: (1) belief in some Supreme being(s)
(Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, Buddhism, the norsk gods, etc.); (2)
non-belief in this entity/entities (atheism), and (3) my own standing,
which is agnosticism which rejects both of the above.
Agnosticism is not a 3rd way. There is no 3rd way.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "David Canzi -- non-mailable" |
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| Title: Re: Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as obvious as I see it. |
24 May 2005 12:32:46 PM |
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In article <1116893555.599034.6660@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
Paul Robinson <paul@paul-robinson.us> wrote:
Generally I understand most people see the opinions of human theology
as broken up into three classes: (1) belief in some Supreme being(s)
(Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, Buddhism, the norsk gods, etc.); (2)
non-belief in this entity/entities (atheism), and (3) my own standing,
which is agnosticism which rejects both of the above.
But there is a fourth way. There is at least one fourth way. Maybe
there are others (a fifth way, a sixth way, etc.) I would like to hear
other people's arguments, if they have any.
Your imagination is too limited if you can only come up with
4 possibilities.
(1) There is a god.
(2) I don't believe that there is a god.
(2a) I don't believe that there is no god.
(3) There is no way to find out whether or not there is a god.
(Dictionary definition of agnosticism.)
(4) I don't know whether or not there is a god, and I don't know
if there is any way to find out.
(5) There is no god.
(6) Words cannot denote unobservable entities.
A person can agree with more than one of these statements without
self-contradiction.
--
David Canzi
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| User: "Barry Trotter" |
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| Title: Re: Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as obvious as I see it. |
25 May 2005 01:52:59 AM |
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In the great debate about "Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as
obvious as I see it." in alt.atheism, "Paul Robinson"
<paul@paul-robinson.us> catapaulted the following boulder:
I have discovered something I consider "the fourth way." Perhaps there
is more than one, and perhaps it's not as obvious as it is to me.
Everybody has a unique collection of navel debris.
David Silverman F.L.A.H.N. aa #2208
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| User: "Mephisto" |
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| Title: Re: Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as obvious as I see it. |
24 May 2005 06:38:34 AM |
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On 23 May 2005 17:12:35 -0700, "Paul Robinson" <paul@paul-robinson.us>
wrote:
I have discovered something I consider "the fourth way." Perhaps there
is more than one, and perhaps it's not as obvious as it is to me.
Generally I understand most people see the opinions of human theology
as broken up into three classes: (1) belief in some Supreme being(s)
(Christianity, Judaism, Muslim, Buddhism, the norsk gods, etc.); (2)
non-belief in this entity/entities (atheism), and (3) my own standing,
which is agnosticism which rejects both of the above.
What 'supreme being(s)' do Buddhists believe in?
Mephisto
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| User: "Ash" |
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| Title: Re: Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as obvious as I seeit. |
24 May 2005 06:11:42 AM |
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Paul Robinson wrote:
Does this remind anyone else of Sinister?
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| User: "Mark Richardson" |
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| Title: Re: Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as obvious as I see it. |
24 May 2005 06:34:17 AM |
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On Tue, 24 May 2005 12:11:42 +0100, Ash
<ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Paul Robinson wrote:
Does this remind anyone else of Sinister?
Nah.
Do you remember SOB Sweet Old Bob - from a few weeks ago?
He was much more Sinisteresque.
I keep a close eye out for his return.
Mark.
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| User: "Ash" |
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| Title: Re: Do you see the fourth way? Or is it not as obvious as I seeit. |
24 May 2005 09:02:18 AM |
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Mark Richardson wrote:
On Tue, 24 May 2005 12:11:42 +0100, Ash
<ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Paul Robinson wrote:
Does this remind anyone else of Sinister?
Nah.
Do you remember SOB Sweet Old Bob - from a few weeks ago?
He was much more Sinisteresque.
I keep a close eye out for his return.
I don't know, the whole "I'm not an atherist, but I'm not not an
atherist, I have my own special way" is kind of familiar
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