Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Bruce"
Date:	13 Dec 2004 02:55:36 AM
Object:	Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!

Read this article and absorb its meaning. Squeeze every ounce of truth out
of it. It's not just a story to amuse you, to make you feel nostalgic about
days best forgotten. It is a bitter insight into how the medical profession
operates.
My industry (IT / computer) is in many ways analogous to the medical
profession, with one crucial difference - we only get paid for fixing
problems, not treating them. Either we solve the problem or we don't get
paid. We don't get paid for fucking around with hardware and software for
days on end, if the end result is that the problem remains.
And yet, here we have a story laying it all out for you. The medical
profession gets paid for treating patients, not for curing ailments. The
medical profession has as its modus operandi, lies. They lie, they mislead,
they deceive. That's what they do. That's what they are trained to do.
The medical profession has always formulated some treatment for things they
know absolutely stuff all about. They have always accepted vast amounts of
money for administering treatments that are entirely ineffective.
Right now, today, as you read this, there are millions of people in Drug
Rehabilitation centres all over the world being treated for drug addiction.
Many of these rehabs follow what is known as the Minnesota Model, which is a
12 step treatment program. The 12 step program itself states that there is
no known cure for it (drug addiction), instead it conveys the message that
recovery from addiction is possible via the intervention of God.
^^^
An aside here: some say that the 12 step program has a Higher Power, not a
god per se. Higher Power (power greater than us) is mentioned once in the 12
steps. Thereafter it is referred to as God.
^^^
What I am saying here, is that this article (copied below) about
tuberculosis treatment is helpful to us in understanding current treatments
for drug addiction. The medics have no clue how to treat drug addiction,
just as they had no clue about treating TB. However, that will not stop
medics from referring people to rehab clinics for treatment, even knowing
that it is money down the drain.
The other bottom line is that the 12 step program does not have a hope in
hell of fixing up drug addicts. It is a wholly and completely ineffective
program. Anyone who says different is a liar, a damned liar and a 12
stepper.
The worst thing about all of this is the false hope so many people labour
under. Just like so many young people succumbed to TB (back then), so too,
today, many young people die from using narcotics. And clinics are ready to
step in and snatch up vast sums of money for their ineffective treatments.
As for the prohibition on certain narcotics, no government can outlaw a
medical condition - that is the kind of naivete that inspired King Canute to
attempt to turn back the tide.
For an effective treatment for drug addiction, we will have to wait perhaps
another 25 - 50 years. In the meantime, many will continue to die and
clinics will continue to rake in big profits from their quackery.
***
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4083351.stm
Swiss hospital breathes its last

By Emma Jane Kirby
BBC correspondent, Switzerland
In the 1920s and 30s, tuberculosis sufferers flocked to mountaintop clinics
in the Swiss resort of Davos for the pure air. But today, with TB less of a
threat, the clinics are closing down. Emma Jane Kirby has been to see the
doors shutting on one of the hospitals that inspired German novelist Thomas
Mann's famous book, The Magic Mountain.
Mountains in Davos
Davos is famous for its pure mountain air
There's something decidedly eerie about an empty hospital, and an empty, old
hospital, half hidden by snow and overshadowed by heavy, threatening
mountains has an even more sinister feel.
It was already dark when I arrived at the Valbella clinic.
Somewhere above the huge staircase came the animated sound of a small party
at dinner and from along an unlit corridor I could just make out the
repetitive sound of a woman coughing.
The entrance hall was strewn with medical litter - a discarded old
wheelchair by the door, a contorted breathing apparatus with an old rubber
mask hanging by its side.
A giant 1920s photograph dominated the wall, boasting of the Valbella clinic
in its heyday - a majestic facade of ornate balconies and balustrades, their
splendour cunningly concealing the fact that this was a place where most
people came not to indulge, but to die.
Dingy
The nurse who eventually rushed up to greet us, however, was a perfect
specimen of 21st Century health.
Her cheeks were burnt brown from the winter sun and the strong muscles on
her forearms offered no complaint as she swung my bag over her shoulder and
showed me to my room.

I watched them wrap up to take their final 'cure' - a brisk walk among the
snow heavy fir trees
She laughed as we made our way down the dingy corridor. "Don't worry," she
grinned. "It's not haunted, it just feels sad because we're closing down."
My room was very different to the one that Hans Castorp, the fictional hero
of The Magic Mountain, stayed in.
For a start, mine had an en-suite shower and a radio and more importantly,
unlike in poor Hans' case, no-one had died in my bed the previous evening.
At least I don't think that's what the nurse was trying to say to me in her
rapid Swiss German, as she plumped up the pillows and put an extra blanket
over my duvet cover.
'Cure'
Tuberculosis
TB is spread through the air after infected people cough or sneeze
At breakfast the next morning, I met the last of the clinic's patients.
Not TB sufferers any more, but old men and women with bronchial complaints
or chronic asthma, sent to Davos for a few weeks to escape the pollution of
their home towns and to benefit from the pure mountain air.
I watched them wrap up to take their final "cure" - a brisk walk among the
snow heavy fir trees, as the morning mist lifted ever higher over the
mountain tops.
Hans Castorp and his 1920s friends would have been given similar treatment.
In the hospital archive, I leafed through photograph after photograph of
young men and women lying on beds in the open air, swaddled in furs or
blankets which were half swamped by snow drifts.
Wan faces peeped out under hats and scarves, fragile looking children
dressed only in knickers, performed exercises on the mountain side and men
clutching spittoons stared searchingly into the camera.
But for every desperate image I found, there was also its opposite number in
decadence.
Dining tables, piled high with gluttonous quantities of cake and cream,
flirtatious looking young men, leaning jauntily against elaborate lamp-posts
and finely dressed ladies, looking confident of being asked for the next
dance.
The photos made the sanatorium seem at once alluring and stifling.
There was something so inviting about the camaraderie of it all, something
so foolishly romantic, until I remembered how few of those faces would have
ever left the clinic and how shallow the pleasure must have been in taking
life's final fling.
Magic mountains
In a silent wood near to the clinic, a graveyard bears testimony to the
hundreds of people whom Davos simply couldn't help.
I'd been warned that most of the old headstones had now been removed, but
after some determined searching among the newer stones, I did find a few
names of ex-sanatorium patients, nearly all of whom had died before their
30th birthdays.

I never saw them and I never felt them, but I swear if ever a place was
haunted, this old sanatorium was full of ghosts
They'd come from countries far and wide, desperate to believe in this little
Swiss mountainside town and its, oh so magic, mountains.
Packing my case again, later that afternoon, I was disturbed by the sound of
music floating down one of the clinic's long corridors.
Tentatively, I pushed open a heavy wooden door and saw an old man, sitting
huddled in a thick sweater at a piano.
He was playing Bach with his eyes half closed, his head swaying up and down,
lulled by the rhythm of his fingers on the keyboard.
Sixty, perhaps 80 plastic chairs were laid out in the room in neat rows, all
facing his piano, and all empty.
Haunted
From the lines of concentration etched on his forehead, I could see the man
wasn't just practising but was performing. He looked up suddenly and stopped
playing.
"It's only for myself," he muttered in embarrassment. "I'm only playing for
myself, for the old times."
I persuaded him to play for me. But sitting in that draughty concert hall,
listening to him play, I'm not convinced I was his only audience.
I never saw them and I never felt them, but I swear if ever a place was
haunted, this old sanatorium was full of ghosts.
.

User: "Andrew McSnerkity"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	14 Dec 2004 04:01:00 PM

Check and see if your editor/word processor
has a 'cut' or 'delete' function. Then learn
how to use it. Then die screaming with
many electrical garden tools in your rectum.
"Bruce" <bruce@bruce.com> wrote in message
news:24kqr0hacqq2vujnkiu6avnenqrqdp3i8f@4ax.com...
<A whole lot of words about buggering sea lions on Mars>
.

User: "stuart"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	17 Dec 2004 11:20:36 AM

I think you are unclear about the difference between rehabilitative and
palliative care, Bruce. There is nothing wrong with palliative care, so long
as both the Doctor and patient come to terms with its value.
If the treatment industry could come up with a complete and permanent cure
for addiction which was cost effective, do you not think that third party
payors would not be pushing very hard for it?
You seem to misunderstand a few things Bruce.
"Bruce" <bruce@bruce.com> wrote in message
news:24kqr0hacqq2vujnkiu6avnenqrqdp3i8f@4ax.com...

Read this article and absorb its meaning. Squeeze every ounce of truth out
of it. It's not just a story to amuse you, to make you feel nostalgic
about
days best forgotten. It is a bitter insight into how the medical
profession
operates.

My industry (IT / computer) is in many ways analogous to the medical
profession, with one crucial difference - we only get paid for fixing
problems, not treating them. Either we solve the problem or we don't get
paid. We don't get paid for fucking around with hardware and software for
days on end, if the end result is that the problem remains.

And yet, here we have a story laying it all out for you. The medical
profession gets paid for treating patients, not for curing ailments. The
medical profession has as its modus operandi, lies. They lie, they
mislead,
they deceive. That's what they do. That's what they are trained to do.

The medical profession has always formulated some treatment for things
they
know absolutely stuff all about. They have always accepted vast amounts of
money for administering treatments that are entirely ineffective.

Right now, today, as you read this, there are millions of people in Drug
Rehabilitation centres all over the world being treated for drug
addiction.
Many of these rehabs follow what is known as the Minnesota Model, which is
a
12 step treatment program. The 12 step program itself states that there is
no known cure for it (drug addiction), instead it conveys the message that
recovery from addiction is possible via the intervention of God.

^^^
An aside here: some say that the 12 step program has a Higher Power, not a
god per se. Higher Power (power greater than us) is mentioned once in the
12
steps. Thereafter it is referred to as God.
^^^

What I am saying here, is that this article (copied below) about
tuberculosis treatment is helpful to us in understanding current
treatments
for drug addiction. The medics have no clue how to treat drug addiction,
just as they had no clue about treating TB. However, that will not stop
medics from referring people to rehab clinics for treatment, even knowing
that it is money down the drain.

The other bottom line is that the 12 step program does not have a hope in
hell of fixing up drug addicts. It is a wholly and completely ineffective
program. Anyone who says different is a liar, a damned liar and a 12
stepper.

The worst thing about all of this is the false hope so many people labour
under. Just like so many young people succumbed to TB (back then), so too,
today, many young people die from using narcotics. And clinics are ready
to
step in and snatch up vast sums of money for their ineffective treatments.

As for the prohibition on certain narcotics, no government can outlaw a
medical condition - that is the kind of naivete that inspired King Canute
to
attempt to turn back the tide.

For an effective treatment for drug addiction, we will have to wait
perhaps
another 25 - 50 years. In the meantime, many will continue to die and
clinics will continue to rake in big profits from their quackery.

***

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4083351.stm

Swiss hospital breathes its last

By Emma Jane Kirby
BBC correspondent, Switzerland

In the 1920s and 30s, tuberculosis sufferers flocked to mountaintop
clinics
in the Swiss resort of Davos for the pure air. But today, with TB less of
a
threat, the clinics are closing down. Emma Jane Kirby has been to see the
doors shutting on one of the hospitals that inspired German novelist
Thomas
Mann's famous book, The Magic Mountain.

Mountains in Davos
Davos is famous for its pure mountain air

There's something decidedly eerie about an empty hospital, and an empty,
old
hospital, half hidden by snow and overshadowed by heavy, threatening
mountains has an even more sinister feel.

It was already dark when I arrived at the Valbella clinic.

Somewhere above the huge staircase came the animated sound of a small
party
at dinner and from along an unlit corridor I could just make out the
repetitive sound of a woman coughing.

The entrance hall was strewn with medical litter - a discarded old
wheelchair by the door, a contorted breathing apparatus with an old rubber
mask hanging by its side.

A giant 1920s photograph dominated the wall, boasting of the Valbella
clinic
in its heyday - a majestic facade of ornate balconies and balustrades,
their
splendour cunningly concealing the fact that this was a place where most
people came not to indulge, but to die.

Dingy

The nurse who eventually rushed up to greet us, however, was a perfect
specimen of 21st Century health.

Her cheeks were burnt brown from the winter sun and the strong muscles on
her forearms offered no complaint as she swung my bag over her shoulder
and
showed me to my room.

I watched them wrap up to take their final 'cure' - a brisk walk among the
snow heavy fir trees
She laughed as we made our way down the dingy corridor. "Don't worry," she
grinned. "It's not haunted, it just feels sad because we're closing down."

My room was very different to the one that Hans Castorp, the fictional
hero
of The Magic Mountain, stayed in.

For a start, mine had an en-suite shower and a radio and more importantly,
unlike in poor Hans' case, no-one had died in my bed the previous evening.

At least I don't think that's what the nurse was trying to say to me in
her
rapid Swiss German, as she plumped up the pillows and put an extra blanket
over my duvet cover.

'Cure'

Tuberculosis
TB is spread through the air after infected people cough or sneeze
At breakfast the next morning, I met the last of the clinic's patients.

Not TB sufferers any more, but old men and women with bronchial complaints
or chronic asthma, sent to Davos for a few weeks to escape the pollution
of
their home towns and to benefit from the pure mountain air.

I watched them wrap up to take their final "cure" - a brisk walk among the
snow heavy fir trees, as the morning mist lifted ever higher over the
mountain tops.

Hans Castorp and his 1920s friends would have been given similar
treatment.

In the hospital archive, I leafed through photograph after photograph of
young men and women lying on beds in the open air, swaddled in furs or
blankets which were half swamped by snow drifts.

Wan faces peeped out under hats and scarves, fragile looking children
dressed only in knickers, performed exercises on the mountain side and men
clutching spittoons stared searchingly into the camera.

But for every desperate image I found, there was also its opposite number
in
decadence.

Dining tables, piled high with gluttonous quantities of cake and cream,
flirtatious looking young men, leaning jauntily against elaborate
lamp-posts
and finely dressed ladies, looking confident of being asked for the next
dance.

The photos made the sanatorium seem at once alluring and stifling.

There was something so inviting about the camaraderie of it all, something
so foolishly romantic, until I remembered how few of those faces would
have
ever left the clinic and how shallow the pleasure must have been in taking
life's final fling.

Magic mountains

In a silent wood near to the clinic, a graveyard bears testimony to the
hundreds of people whom Davos simply couldn't help.

I'd been warned that most of the old headstones had now been removed, but
after some determined searching among the newer stones, I did find a few
names of ex-sanatorium patients, nearly all of whom had died before their
30th birthdays.

I never saw them and I never felt them, but I swear if ever a place was
haunted, this old sanatorium was full of ghosts
They'd come from countries far and wide, desperate to believe in this
little
Swiss mountainside town and its, oh so magic, mountains.

Packing my case again, later that afternoon, I was disturbed by the sound
of
music floating down one of the clinic's long corridors.

Tentatively, I pushed open a heavy wooden door and saw an old man, sitting
huddled in a thick sweater at a piano.

He was playing Bach with his eyes half closed, his head swaying up and
down,
lulled by the rhythm of his fingers on the keyboard.

Sixty, perhaps 80 plastic chairs were laid out in the room in neat rows,
all
facing his piano, and all empty.

Haunted

From the lines of concentration etched on his forehead, I could see the
man
wasn't just practising but was performing. He looked up suddenly and
stopped
playing.

"It's only for myself," he muttered in embarrassment. "I'm only playing
for
myself, for the old times."

I persuaded him to play for me. But sitting in that draughty concert hall,
listening to him play, I'm not convinced I was his only audience.

I never saw them and I never felt them, but I swear if ever a place was
haunted, this old sanatorium was full of ghosts.

User: "Bruce"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	14 Dec 2004 12:50:47 PM

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 06:32:28 -0500, Kenny <kennydbakerREMOVE@yahoo.com>
wrote in message <uavqr0d3rm7djfk2qq7193lcdmbejelibc@4ax.com>:

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:55:36 +0200, "Bruce" <bruce@bruce.com> wrote:

Right now, today, as you read this, there are millions of people in Drug
Rehabilitation centres all over the world being treated for drug addiction.
Many of these rehabs follow what is known as the Minnesota Model, which is a
12 step treatment program. The 12 step program itself states that there is
no known cure for it (drug addiction), instead it conveys the message that
recovery from addiction is possible via the intervention of God.

I enjoyed this authors story; she is a talented writer. Thanks for
sharing.
My beliefs and your beliefs are irrelevant to the hundreds of people
that are helped by the twelve-step program.

*No-one* is helped by the 12 step program. *No-one*.
What a person believes and what is true in reality are often two different
things, but one can be sure of this: no cult has ever helped anyone.
Religion is an answer to nothing. It is part of the problem, not the
solution.
Religion only makes things worse, not better.
While everyone is free to believe whatever they like, the 12 step program
uses duress to impose religion on anyone who seeks help from the 12 step
cult.

To me, it doesn't make a
lot of sense to come into a room of twelve-stepper's and deny them any
form of recovery they get from the program.

12 steppers do not need the 12 step program to stay quit off drugs.
I stopped using drugs when I wanted to stop. The message given out by the 12
step cult is that addiction cannot be stopped by the addicted person, it can
only be stopped by God. That is a lie.

For whatever reason, for these people, the program works.

No, it does not. It is not possible to conclude that the 12 step program is
effective on their word.

It doesn't matter how irrational the program might seem to you or I.

It is irrational. Believing in God to cure you from addiction is as
effective as believing that mountain walks and breathing fresh air is an
effective treatment for tuberculosis.
The medical profession will treat any given disease with any number of
experimental treatment regimes if they have no real cure, and they will
demand huge sums of money for these completely ineffective methods too. That
is the scandal of the medical profession.

You and I can set here and attack the
beliefs and the concept of a higher power and the belief that God will
intervene in the life of an addict and remove the obsessions and
compulsions that drive their addiction.

Too ridiculous for words. God does not cure anyone. The 12 step program is
founded on the biggest load of hogwash and *****. It's a first rate scam.

In my opinion, if faith in
such a concept helps an addict break free of his or her addiction then
that is something good. Why would I want to destroy that for someone?

It does not work. It's not as if I am destroying anything. I am pointing out
that it does not work.

For institutions to capitalize off the twelve-step program is a
violation of the twelve traditions; an institutions affiliation with
AA or NA is a violation of the twelve traditions.

More hogwash. Most rehabs claim to offer a 12 step program.

AA and NA are an
independent non-profit organization of addicts that come together to
support each other in their recovery, nothing more, nothing less. When
you come to AA or NA you have a choice, you can accept the program and
join the fellowship or you can reject the program and find another
way.
Keep coming back, it works if you work it.

It doesn't.
.

User: "sportsfan"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	14 Dec 2004 05:21:51 PM

"Bruce" <bruce@bruce.com> wrote in message
news:rcttr0dkf78tepfef3i9oeddd3m3jc63ij@4ax.com...

*No-one* is helped by the 12 step program. *No-one*.

Religion is an answer to nothing. It is part of the problem, not the
solution.

Religion only makes things worse, not better.

While everyone is free to believe whatever they like, the 12 step program
uses duress to impose religion on anyone who seeks help from the 12 step
cult.
. It is not possible to conclude that the 12 step program is
effective on their word.

My life was saved by the 12 step programs of AA and NA 16 years ago. I work
the program still today in my everyday life, and now have a life that I
never dreamed possible. Sorry you are bitter, but there are thousands of
grateful "spiritual but not religious" folks who are alive and living lives
beyond their dreams today due to these programs.
Sorry to hear you are so sick.
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	14 Dec 2004 11:12:23 PM

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:21:51 -0500, "sportsfan"
<nospamplease@fullofit.com> said in alt.atheism:

You believe in a higher power? Then you're religious. You don't?
Then you didn't use AA.
--
"The study of geology is ok-But not when it contradicts what is laid
out in the Bible that the earth is more than 10,000 years old."
- Doug Lee, Creationi
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.

User: "sportsfan"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	16 Dec 2004 04:35:12 AM

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:hshvr0pvo0iqqkphmlm61psh582k5ulsaj@4ax.com...

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:21:51 -0500, "sportsfan"
<nospamplease@fullofit.com> said in alt.atheism:

My life was saved by the 12 step programs of AA and NA 16 years ago. I

work

the program still today in my everyday life, and now have a life that I
never dreamed possible. Sorry you are bitter, but there are thousands of
grateful "spiritual but not religious" folks

You believe in a higher power? Then you're religious. You don't?
Then you didn't use AA.

I believe in a higher power, then I am spiritual. I believe in a religion,
then I am religious. See the difference?
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	16 Dec 2004 07:11:33 PM

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:35:12 -0500, "sportsfan"
<nospamplease@fullofit.com> said in alt.atheism:

I believe in a higher power, then I am spiritual. I believe in a religion,
then I am religious. See the difference?

Religious: Having or showing belief in and reverence for a deity. Not
much difference.
---
CellPhonesEtc at optonline dot net
.

User: "Bruce"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	17 Dec 2004 10:09:23 PM

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 20:11:33 -0500, Al Klein <CellPhones@optonline.net>
wrote in message <pec4s05b37fn2uf95tm55cc5g2ne21m586@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:35:12 -0500, "sportsfan"

I believe in a higher power, then I am spiritual. I believe in a religion,
then I am religious. See the difference?

Religious: Having or showing belief in and reverence for a deity. Not
much difference.

In fact, no difference.
.

User: "Mel"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	16 Dec 2004 12:14:56 PM

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:35:12 -0500, "sportsfan" <nospamplease@fullofit.com>
wrote in message <10s2p72lm0kgg57@corp.supernews.com>:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:21:51 -0500, "sportsfan"
<nospamplease@fullofit.com> said in alt.atheism:

My life was saved by the 12 step programs of AA and NA 16 years ago. I
work the program still today in my everyday life, and now have a life that I
never dreamed possible. Sorry you are bitter, but there are thousands of
grateful "spiritual but not religious" folks

You believe in a higher power? Then you're religious. You don't?
Then you didn't use AA.

I believe in a higher power, then I am spiritual. I believe in a religion,
then I am religious. See the difference?

doh. you obviously do not know.
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
Cape Town news
http://adderleystreet.co.za/capetown/
.

User: "GP of ATJ"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	16 Dec 2004 07:37:05 PM

"Mel" <mel@atj.fag.com> wrote in message
news:b073s01a916ugf6ccp5us24ekfs18f1r2u@4ax.com...

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:35:12 -0500, "sportsfan"
<nospamplease@fullofit.com>
wrote in message <10s2p72lm0kgg57@corp.supernews.com>:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:21:51 -0500, "sportsfan"
<nospamplease@fullofit.com> said in alt.atheism:

My life was saved by the 12 step programs of AA and NA 16 years ago. I
work the program still today in my everyday life, and now have a life
that I
never dreamed possible. Sorry you are bitter, but there are thousands
of
grateful "spiritual but not religious" folks

You believe in a higher power? Then you're religious. You don't?
Then you didn't use AA.

I believe in a higher power, then I am spiritual. I believe in a religion,
then I am religious. See the difference?

doh. you obviously do not know.

he knows more than you ever will fag boy.
Firm THIS Up
One morning while making breakfast, a man walked up to his wife and pinched
her on the butt and said, "If you firmed this up, we could get rid of your
control top pantyhose." While this was on the edge of intolerable, she kept
silent.
The next morning, the man woke his wife with a pinch on each of her breasts
and said "You know, if you firmed these up, we could get rid of your bra."
This was beyond a silent response, so she rolled over and grabbed him by his
penis. With a death grip in place, she said, "You know, if you firmed this
up, we could get rid of the gardener, the postman, the poolman and your
brother."

--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfag.com
http://www.atjfag.com/

Fag Town news
http://adderleystreet.co.za/capetown/

User: "Bruce"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	17 Dec 2004 10:09:21 PM

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 05:35:12 -0500, "sportsfan" <nospamplease@fullofit.com>
wrote in message <10s2p72lm0kgg57@corp.supernews.com>:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:21:51 -0500, "sportsfan"

My life was saved by the 12 step programs of AA and NA 16 years ago. I
work the program still today in my everyday life, and now have a life that I
never dreamed possible. Sorry you are bitter, but there are thousands of
grateful "spiritual but not religious" folks

You believe in a higher power? Then you're religious. You don't?
Then you didn't use AA.

I believe in a higher power, then I am spiritual. I believe in a religion,
then I am religious. See the difference?

There is no difference. The 12 Step Program calls for belief in God. That
makes it a religion.
Relying on God to solve your problems reveals the total lack of a real
solution and the true desperation of your condition.
.

User: "Kai R"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	16 Dec 2004 04:40:18 AM

sportsfan kirjoitti:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:hshvr0pvo0iqqkphmlm61psh582k5ulsaj@4ax.com...

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:21:51 -0500, "sportsfan"
<nospamplease@fullofit.com> said in alt.atheism:

My life was saved by the 12 step programs of AA and NA 16 years ago. I

work

the program still today in my everyday life, and now have a life that I
never dreamed possible. Sorry you are bitter, but there are thousands of
grateful "spiritual but not religious" folks

You believe in a higher power? Then you're religious. You don't?
Then you didn't use AA.

I believe in a higher power, then I am spiritual. I believe in a religion,
then I am religious. See the difference?

Actually, even belief in a higher power is not a prerequisite for
utilizing AA program. The second step says "came to believe that a
power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity". Now all one
needs to accept is the simple matter that yes, if there was a power
greater than myself, it could perhaps be capable of "restoring me to
sanity". One does not have to believe there *is* a higher power, just
that if there was, it could perhaps do the necessary restoration.
--
Kai
"Come, muse, let us sing of rats!"
.

User: "Douglas D. Anderson"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	16 Dec 2004 04:52:11 AM

"Kai R" <me@privacy.net.invalid> wrote

sportsfan kirjoitti:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:hshvr0pvo0iqqkphmlm61psh582k5ulsaj@4ax.com...

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:21:51 -0500, "sportsfan"
<nospamplease@fullofit.com> said in alt.atheism:

My life was saved by the 12 step programs of AA and NA 16 years ago. I

work

the program still today in my everyday life, and now have a life that I
never dreamed possible. Sorry you are bitter, but there are thousands of
grateful "spiritual but not religious" folks

You believe in a higher power? Then you're religious. You don't?
Then you didn't use AA.

I believe in a higher power, then I am spiritual. I believe in a religion,
then I am religious. See the difference?

But is that "higher" in the sense of being on a higher moral plane, or
merely in the sense of "greater"? If the latter, it could be demons, or
"gods" in the sense envisioned by the Greeks or Norse, with major
moral defects and "personality" problems of their own. Then their
could be no real confidence that their "guidance" had any value, in
fact it could be exploitative or destructive. The God of OT appears
at a substantial moral platform, but only seems to help those strong
enough to first overcome their own faults without much help. It is
only the God of the NT who possesses the characteristics needed
of freely giving guidance and help in which the individual may have
confidence and trust.
.

User: "Bruce"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	17 Dec 2004 10:09:22 PM

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:40:18 +0200, Kai R <me@privacy.net.invalid> wrote in
message <cpromm$ekv$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>:

sportsfan kirjoitti:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:21:51 -0500, "sportsfan"

My life was saved by the 12 step programs of AA and NA 16 years ago. I

work

the program still today in my everyday life, and now have a life that I
never dreamed possible. Sorry you are bitter, but there are thousands of
grateful "spiritual but not religious" folks

You believe in a higher power? Then you're religious. You don't?
Then you didn't use AA.

I believe in a higher power, then I am spiritual. I believe in a religion,
then I am religious. See the difference?

I believe that your above stated opinion would fall under the NA catch
phrase, "Members in meetings express their own opinions. Official NA views
can be found in the literature", or words to that effect.
IOW you choose to discount God, however the NA program does not do that.
Therefore you are not following the NA Way and your opinions about how NA
works can be discounted.
.

User: "Kai R"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	18 Dec 2004 03:48:29 AM

Bruce kirjoitti:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:40:18 +0200, Kai R <me@privacy.net.invalid> wrote in
message <cpromm$ekv$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>:

sportsfan kirjoitti:

I believe in a higher power, then I am spiritual. I believe in a religion,
then I am religious. See the difference?

I believe that your above attempt to link "official NA view" with AA
program would fall under the ARF12 standard operation procedure called
"straw man"

IOW you choose to discount God, however the NA program does not do that.

I do choose to discount God? Where? And what on earth does NA have to
do with AA?

Therefore you are not following the NA Way and your opinions about how NA
works can be discounted.

I have no opinions about "how NA works" nor have I expressed such
opinions.
Kai
.

User: "Mel"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	16 Dec 2004 12:15:26 PM

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:40:18 +0200, Kai R <me@privacy.net.invalid> wrote in
message <cpromm$ekv$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>:

sportsfan kirjoitti:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:21:51 -0500, "sportsfan"

My life was saved by the 12 step programs of AA and NA 16 years ago. I

work

the program still today in my everyday life, and now have a life that I
never dreamed possible. Sorry you are bitter, but there are thousands of
grateful "spiritual but not religious" folks

You believe in a higher power? Then you're religious. You don't?
Then you didn't use AA.

I believe in a higher power, then I am spiritual. I believe in a religion,
then I am religious. See the difference?

Kai, you are too stoopid for words. you are an embarrasment to stupid
people.
--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfaq.com
http://www.atjfaq.com/
Cape Town news
http://adderleystreet.co.za/capetown/
.

User: "GP of ATJ"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	16 Dec 2004 07:37:34 PM

"Mel" <mel@atj.fag.com> wrote in message
news:0483s0hpjp28ubf04rneiijmuj6djqk22j@4ax.com...

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:40:18 +0200, Kai R <me@privacy.net.invalid> wrote
in
message <cpromm$ekv$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>:

sportsfan kirjoitti:

"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:21:51 -0500, "sportsfan"

My life was saved by the 12 step programs of AA and NA 16 years ago. I

work

the program still today in my everyday life, and now have a life that I
never dreamed possible. Sorry you are bitter, but there are thousands
of
grateful "spiritual but not religious" folks

You believe in a higher power? Then you're religious. You don't?
Then you didn't use AA.

I believe in a higher power, then I am spiritual. I believe in a
religion,
then I am religious. See the difference?

Kai, you are too stoopid for words. you are an embarrasment to stupid
people.

that you are fag boy.
Firm THIS Up
One morning while making breakfast, a man walked up to his wife and pinched
her on the butt and said, "If you firmed this up, we could get rid of your
control top pantyhose." While this was on the edge of intolerable, she kept
silent.
The next morning, the man woke his wife with a pinch on each of her breasts
and said "You know, if you firmed these up, we could get rid of your bra."
This was beyond a silent response, so she rolled over and grabbed him by his
penis. With a death grip in place, she said, "You know, if you firmed this
up, we could get rid of the gardener, the postman, the poolman and your
brother."

--
smash yer modem, reboot, kill yerself
Mel the Defiler
member, ATJ regs
webmaster of atjfag.com
http://www.atjfag.com/

Fag Town news
http://adderleystreet.co.za/capetown/

User: "Bruce"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	15 Dec 2004 02:41:34 AM

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 05:12:23 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in
message <hshvr0pvo0iqqkphmlm61psh582k5ulsaj@4ax.com>:

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:21:51 -0500, "sportsfan"
<nospamplease@fullofit.com> said in alt.atheism:

You believe in a higher power? Then you're religious. You don't?
Then you didn't use AA.

This is a strange thing - step two of the 12 step program mentions "a Power
greater than ourselves", from then on it is simply called God in the rest of
the 12 steps.
The literature uses the term Higher Power interchangeably with God. It's
almost as if they're not quite sure what to call it, but the word God is
more pervasive and prevails over Higher Power.
The literature represents NA's official views and it is quite clear from the
literature that a belief in God and a personal relationship with God is not
considered an optional extra when it comes to recovering from drug addiction
the "NA Way" (which is how they describe their program).
The format of meetings is structured and a lithurgy is read out at each
meeting. Meetings begin and end with prayer, which is addressed to God.
If that does not describe a religion, then I would like to know what more
does NA have to do to qualify as a religion?
.

User: "Bruce"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	15 Dec 2004 02:41:33 AM

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:21:51 -0500, "sportsfan" <nospamplease@fullofit.com>
wrote in message <10rutcmd45egv57@corp.supernews.com>:

"Bruce" <bruce@bruce.com> wrote in message

*No-one* is helped by the 12 step program. *No-one*.
Religion is an answer to nothing. It is part of the problem, not the
solution.
Religion only makes things worse, not better.
While everyone is free to believe whatever they like, the 12 step program
uses duress to impose religion on anyone who seeks help from the 12 step
cult.
It is not possible to conclude that the 12 step program is
effective on their word.

My life was saved by the 12 step programs of AA and NA 16 years ago.

No, your life was not saved by the 12 step program.
You saved your own life.

I work the program still today in my everyday life, and now have a life that I
never dreamed possible. Sorry you are bitter,

Why would you conclude that?
This is called assumption and / or possibly projection.

but there are thousands of grateful "spiritual but not religious"

This is called denial. NA is a religious cult. NA mentions God numerous
times in its literature. Any organisation that has God as its centrepiece is
a religion.

folks who are alive and living lives
beyond their dreams today due to these programs.
Sorry to hear you are so sick.

No, I'm not sick. I disagree with you. That does not make me sick.
.

User: "sportsfan"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	15 Dec 2004 06:22:59 PM

"Bruce" <bruce@bruce.com> wrote in message
news:bkqvr0ho6ubsh4l11j242lb3u4mlahhtvh@4ax.com...

No, your life was not saved by the 12 step program.

You saved your own life.

*****, I tried for years, I couldn't stop using. It was only through the
program of NA that I found the tools to recovery.

I work the program still today in my everyday life, and now have a life

that I

never dreamed possible. Sorry you are bitter,

Why would you conclude that?

This is called assumption and / or possibly projection.

You sound bitter that others have found a new way of life and are proud to
admit how they found it.

but there are thousands of grateful "spiritual but not religious"

This is called denial. NA is a religious cult. NA mentions God numerous
times in its literature. Any organisation that has God as its centrepiece

a religion.

It is a God of your understanding. Not mine. Yours. My understanding is
quite probably different from yours. It's a spiritual program though, not
religious. Come on by, you may learn to be more positive and accepting of
the gifts others receive in life and not so quick to judge how they got them
through the program and how thankful they are.
.

User: "Bruce"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	17 Dec 2004 10:09:24 PM

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 19:22:59 -0500, "sportsfan" <nospamplease@fullofit.com>
wrote in message <10s1lb5qna57k0f@corp.supernews.com>:

"Bruce" <bruce@bruce.com> wrote in message

No, your life was not saved by the 12 step program.
You saved your own life.

*****, I tried for years, I couldn't stop using.

And yet you did.

It was only through the program of NA that I found the tools to recovery.

And yet the majority experience of addicts coming to NA is that they receive
no benefit.

You sound bitter that others have found a new way of life and are proud to
admit how they found it.

No, I'm not bitter at all. For some reason, many 12 steppers feel it
necessary to personally deride anyone who criticises their program.

but there are thousands of grateful "spiritual but not religious"

This is called denial. NA is a religious cult. NA mentions God numerous
times in its literature. Any organisation that has God as its centrepiece
is a religion.

It is a God of your understanding. Not mine. Yours. My understanding is
quite probably different from yours.

Every single person who believes in God forms their own personal
understanding of God. The qualification is meaningless. It is not unique to
NA. If you asked a group of religious people who all attend the same Church,
you would soon discover that each person has their own unique understanding
of God.

It's a spiritual program though, not
religious.

That is a mere semantic difference, not a real difference. IOW you are
choosing to use synonyms to describe your religion.

Come on by, you may learn to be more positive and accepting of
the gifts others receive in life and not so quick to judge how they got them
through the program and how thankful they are.

Again, another personal comment which completely misses the mark. This is
not a personal debate at all. It is a debate about the principles, not the
personalities, as NA is want to say.
.

User: "sportsfan"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	18 Dec 2004 10:45:15 AM

Bruce,
I've been carefully removing the NA newsgroup from your cross-posting
because to that group you'd just be considered a troll. You however insist
upon always adding it back in when you post back. So for my last comment to
you here, I'll leave it in.
What does this have to do with rec.humor, tasteless.jokes. or flame.jc ? To
me personally you lose all credibilty cross-posting like that. It's as if
you have no message, just like to see yourself in print in as many places as
possible.
I said:

Come on by, you may learn to be more positive and accepting of
the gifts others receive in life and not so quick to judge how they got

them

through the program and how thankful they are.

and you said:

Again, another personal comment which completely misses the mark. This is
not a personal debate at all. It is a debate about the principles, not the
personalities, as NA is want to say.

The principle of trying to convince someone they'd be wasting their time
with NA to help them with their addiction when they've tried and failed to
do it on their own so many times like I did......
That says all I need to know about your principles. That an addict might die
because he didn't try NA because jerks like you tell them it doesn't
work.... is that what you're all about? That's not recovery in my book.
I'll pray for you..... some are sicker than others....
kevin
thewayisna at yahoo dot com
.

User: "Bruce"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	19 Dec 2004 09:13:05 AM

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 11:45:15 -0500, "sportsfan" <nospamplease@fullofit.com>
wrote in message <10s8nl0ja5adi1e@corp.supernews.com>:

Bruce,
I've been carefully removing the NA newsgroup from your cross-posting
because to that group you'd just be considered a troll.

That is irrelevant to the points I've raised. It is irrelevant what they
think.

You however insist upon always adding it back in when you post back.

Correct. My posting directly pertains to that group.

So for my last comment to you here, I'll leave it in.
What does this have to do with rec.humor, tasteless.jokes.

NA is a joke, a tasteless joke.

or flame.jc?

They are anti belief in God.

To me personally you lose all credibilty cross-posting like that.

It's irrelevant what you think about anything because you are wrong about
everything.

It's as if you have no message,

I can't express my message any clearer that I already have. I don't think
you want to hear it.

just like to see yourself in print in as many places as possible.

Usenet is not print. Do you have any idea about anything?

I said:

Come on by, you may learn to be more positive and accepting of
the gifts others receive in life and not so quick to judge how they got
them through the program and how thankful they are.

Yes, you did, and even that comment was completely disingenuous because NA
does not teach people what you claimed above. If anything, NA is comprised
of extremely obnoxious abherrant members of society who have nothing to
offer the rest of us.

and you said:

Again, another personal comment which completely misses the mark. This is
not a personal debate at all. It is a debate about the principles, not the
personalities, as NA is want to say.

The principle of trying to convince someone they'd be wasting their time
with NA to help them with their addiction when they've tried and failed to
do it on their own so many times like I did......

Yes. It is a waste of time. NA does more harm than good. In fact, it does no
good at all for anyone. That much can easily be seen by the type of
responses you can read in alt.recovery.na and by attending NA meetings and
meeting the people who attend them. The best of them are out and out rogues.
You, yourself, are an example of this. You are unintelligent, hostile,
humourless and the opposite of open-minded.

That says all I need to know about your principles. That an addict might die

Most addicts do die in their addiction because right now there is no
effective treatment or cure for it.
It's just the same as tuberculosis sufferers. They had no chance. They only
stopped dying when an effective treatment for TB became available.
It's not a question of "an addict might die". Addicts are dying and there
are no treatments currently available which change the outcome / prognosis
significantly.
Addicts struggling to get free from the drug they are addicted to frequently
relapse, because that is the nature of addiction. And when they relapse,
they ingest their substance again which freshly addicts them again. A
vaccine would interfere with this. An addict who relapsed would ingest their
substance, but gain nothing from it. Many would resign themselves to the
fact that they will never get a high from their drug again, and find other
things to do with their time. A vaccine effectively ends their addiction to
the particular substance.

because he didn't try NA because jerks like you tell them it doesn't
work....

No, I am not a jerk for telling the truth. NA does not work. Nothing
currently works to assist a person to end their addiction to highly
addictive narcotices.
The message to TB sufferers a century ago was that they might as well resign
themselves to death. Nothing they did would help them recover. They were
doomed. Not a palatable message to hear, but the truth nonetheless.
The same message today applies to drug addicts. They are without help. There
is no effective treatment for drug addiction. Rehabs will not help them. NA
will not help them. There exists not a single drug addiction program which
has a success rate of over 90%. The best success rate is a maximum of 10%.
Such a low rate of success means that the treatment followed was nothing
more than a placebo. It's like drinking sugar water to cure cancer.
That is the message that should be uppermost in the general public's mind.
That is probably the best way to convey to others the seriousness of
experimenting with addictive drugs.
Even AIDS has drug treatments that are effective in increasing the longevity
of AIDS sufferers. Drug addicts do not even have that. They have absolutely
nothing which is effective in assisting them to quit and stay quit.

is that what you're all about?

Yes. NA serves the exact same purpose as the Fresh Air TB Clinics of yore
did - to raise false hope amongst sufferers.
NA is unable to save a single addict from dying of their addiction. My
simple message to every addict is this: if you cannot get it right to stop
using your drug and never use it again, you're done for. Nothing will save
you from your untimely death.

That's not recovery in my book.

NA does not offer recovery, it only claims to, but it doesn't.

I'll pray for you.....

I don't want or need you to pray for me. I find that comment to be
demeaning. I don't need to be demeaned by a silly punk like you who does not
appear to have the capacity to think things through.

some are sicker than others....

I'm not sick, punk. I'm not interested in your religious clap-trap.
.

User: "Bruce"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	20 Dec 2004 03:50:06 AM

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 12:06:53 -0500, Kenny <kennydbakerREMOVE@yahoo.com>
wrote in message <03dbs0l20a5erb85hm66cjav3m214akfj9@4ax.com>:

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 17:13:05 +0200, "Bruce" <bruce@bruce.com> wrote:

This vaccine does nothing to address the cognitive aspect of
addiction.

What cognitive aspect? This sounds like another unproven theory about what
addiction is and how best to treat it.

Some addictions are a product of the addict's emotional
insecurities;

Addiction to a substance happens only when it is consumed. This is
self-evident and clear to most. For example I am not addicted to heroin
simply because I have never consumed any quantity of it.
Can you not see the obvious? The obvious is that addiction does not exist
without a substance to be addicted to. The obvious is that one does not have
a problem with addiction if one has never consumed an addictive substance.
The beginning and end of addiction is the addictive substance. End the
addictive power of the substance and you have the entire problem licked.

they use to escape the emotional pain they feel inside.

I don't believe that theory for one second. Everyone experiences emotional
pain from time to time.

These addicts simply move from one substance to another; which, in
turn, makes a vaccine useless.

I don't believe that every addict is that foolish. Those who are, deserve to
die. I have no sympathy for fools.

Some of these addicts have very poor social skills and support groups
like NA and AA give them a social environment of like people that they
can relate too.

This explains why NA is an organisation to steer well clear of. Hanging
around with a bunch of social misfits is good for no-one.

They find the courage, strength, and support to face
the cognitive aspects of their addiction from within these groups. The
supports of people in these groups often fill the voids in addict's
life. The fellowship of support groups like NA and AA often give these
addicts a reason for being and an alternative to doing the drugs that
cover up the pain of their isolation.
There is no need for such a drastic chemical intervention

drastic chemical intervention? Are you born stupid?
My line of argument directly contradicts all that you have been led to
believe by the 12 step program and so you are ready to proffer the weakest
of counter arguments to attempt to stem the tide of defeat.
Vaccines are a very well established medical intervention for serious
medical conditions. Smallpox used to be a killer disease, no more thanks to
the smallpox vaccine.
Certainly drug addiction is a serious medical problem. An effective vaccine
would solve it.

when an
addict can come to terms with the issues of his or her addiction
through the support of groups like NA or AA.

You argument is reduced to nothing by reality. Reality is that hardly any
addict is helped by NA or any other drug treatment regime, for that matter.
It is a well known fact that less than 10% of addicts recover from their
addiction.

Just because people are able to recover from addiction through
resources different than the resources you or I use to overcome
addiction does not make their recovery any less valid. What matters
the most is that they are able to go another day without using. Their
recovery is different than yours our mind, so what! It is a good thing
when an addict can go another day without using and they can find
comfort and a channel to meet their emotional and social needs through
support groups like NA or AA. Your ridicule is powerless; the
fellowship of these twelve steppers will continue regardless of if you
accept them or not.

Sure. I accept that. Desperate people, and the desperate people in their
lives, will try anything that purports to save them from their addiction.
Drug rehab clinics are popping up everywhere in the world, promising relief
just like the TB clinics of yore. Opportunists are getting rich off the
backs of the suffering of countless millions of addicts. They are worse than
drug dealers. At least drug dealers sell something that gives genuine
pleasure and not a placebo.
.

User: "Bruce"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	16 Dec 2004 07:34:49 AM

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:22:29 -0500, Kenny <kennydbakerREMOVE@yahoo.com>
wrote in message <rt0vr0hdish4qtmjcf8hfaqm8g3nbmjrnh@4ax.com>:

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:50:47 +0200, "Bruce" <bruce@bruce.com> wrote:

*No-one* is helped by the 12 step program. *No-one*.

You right, the program has helped a lot more than one.

The 12 step program has not helped even one single person, let alone more
than one.
If it was any help at all, it would not have as adherents people like
yourself who will deliberately distort the English language. NA does indeed
redefine language.

What a person believes and what is true in reality are often two different
things

That is a very good point. What these twelve stepper's believe, as
irrational as it might seem to you or I, helps them to break free of
the power their addiction have over them.

That is the claim that NA makes. However the vast majority of people who
belong to NA for any length of time do not quit their addiction, just as the
vast majority of people who took walks in fresh mountain air did not recover
from tuberculosis. Since the time that an effective treatment was found for
TB, the vast majority of people now recover from it without much effort at
all. A true solution to a medical problem is often effortless. You take the
pill, your headache disappears.
NA is like the clinic in the Swiss Alps vainly striving to help those they
cannot help.
You are all involved in a personal war on drugs, and you are losing. The NA
principle of surrender is not some deep spiritual concept that holds the key
to recovery, it is simply bunk.

That is not to say that it cures the addiction.

Nothing less than a complete cure will suffice.

I like to call it a layman's approach to
cognitive therapy. The twelve-step program is similar to cognitive
therapy if you take away the higher power and the God thing. Most of
the cognitive work is done in the first step "We admitted that we were
powerless over our addiction and that our lives had become
unmanageable", the forth step "We make a searching and fearless moral
inventory of ourselves", and the tenth step "We continue to take
personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it". These
are the steps where you come to terms with the issues that drive your
addictions.

Drug addiction is chemically driven. It is not driven by some inner state of
spiritual turmoil that must be attended to in order to cement your recovery.
That's akin to prescribing a special diet in order to strengthen the body to
fight off the TB. It does not come close to addressing the actual problem.

Religion is an answer to nothing. It is part of the problem, not the
solution.
Religion only makes things worse, not better.

I can respect that religion doesn't work for you as well as many
others. Don't you think that believing that religion can't work for
someone else because it didn't work for you is somehow irrational?

I observe that religion produces people who are not willing to see things as
they are. Instead they will re-interpret the happenings in their lives to
align them with what their religion espouses. They will attribute all kinds
of mundane things to God's intervention. Ordinary things will be described
as miracles.
These are people desperate to continue to believe what they profess to
believe. In the back of their heads is a nagging doubt that will not go
away, because at base, they know it is all *****. A simpler explanation
is available which blows away their religious doctrine. Daily they practise
avoidance of that fundamental truth.
I don't consider that kind of lifestyle to be ideal at all. I consider it to
be an unmitigated disaster.

While everyone is free to believe whatever they like, the 12 step program
uses duress to impose religion on anyone who seeks help from the 12 step
cult.

Narcotics Anonymous (NA) makes it very clear that this program is not
a religious program.

Well NA is lying. They can state that they are not a religion till they are
blue in the face, but they are a religion for the simple reason that they
have God as their centrepiece.
Maybe you do not understand how or why that makes NA a religion?

It is a faith and spiritual based program and
they leave it to each individual define higher power and the God of
their understanding.

Terms such as faith and spiritual are religious terms. Religious people can
be extremely stubborn about the words they use to describe themselves, for
example, many Christians refuse to call themselves religious or acknowledge
that they follow a religion. They have decided for themselves that religion
is a dirty word and instead they have a "way of life". Moslems declare, on
bumper stickers that I have seen, that "Islam is the perfect way of life".
This is all denial and avoidance of reality. Religions redefine language to
bolster their message.

You can define your higher power as the support
network of fellowship and the God or your understanding as your
ability to reason. You don't have to choose the God of living Bible as
your higher power or the God of your understanding. If you would like,
you can make nature your higher power and the law of physics the God
of your understanding; that is up to you.

This is irrelevant and also more avoidance (of reality). God cannot be
redefined in this way. The word God is a very well defined concept already.
NA is merely employing a cunning trick here. It is soft soaping people. In
reality, people cannot shake the true definition of God, i.e. Creator of
this entire Universe.

12 steppers do not need the 12 step program to stay quit off drugs.

Sure they do; nothing else has worked for them.

Most have not tried anything else.

They damn sure didn't get anywhere following their own will.

And most NA members, past and present, continue to struggle for the rest of
their lives with drug addiction.
You can claim that this is not so for you and for a lot of people you know,
but if you gathered up every single NA "success" from all the world, their
number would still be dwarfed by all the others who sought help from NA, but
did not derive any benefit.
NA cunningly refuses to accept any responsibility for all these failures,
but is happy to accept responsibility for all the successes.

The message given out by the 12
step cult is that addiction cannot be stopped by the addicted person, it can
only be stopped by God. That is a lie.

For you and for people like you that are able to stop on their own
accord that statement could be very true. If what you say is in fact a
lie, isn't it a better lie than the lies that our addiction tells us,
the lies that keep us trap in that addiction?

Addiction should not be personified.

No, it does not. It is not possible to conclude that the 12 step program is
effective on their word.

Just as it is not possible to conclude that the twelve-step program is
ineffective based on your experience.

It is not merely my experience, it is the experience of every single drug
addicted person who has ever attended at least one NA meeting.

You have been mislead and are confused. NA groups are not money
snatching rehab centers. You are posting to alt.recovery.na.

I did not say that NA was a rehab.
.

User: "Spnaky the Myxophobic Eel"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	15 Dec 2004 10:56:35 AM

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:50:47 +0200, Bruce, the yammering pinworm wrote:

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 06:32:28 -0500, Kenny <kennydbakerREMOVE@yahoo.com>
wrote in message <uavqr0d3rm7djfk2qq7193lcdmbejelibc@4ax.com>:

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:55:36 +0200, "Bruce" <bruce@bruce.com> wrote:

I enjoyed this authors story; she is a talented writer. Thanks for
sharing.
My beliefs and your beliefs are irrelevant to the hundreds of people
that are helped by the twelve-step program.

*No-one* is helped by the 12 step program. *No-one*.

What a person believes and what is true in reality are often two different
things, but one can be sure of this: no cult has ever helped anyone.

Religion is an answer to nothing. It is part of the problem, not the
solution.

Religion only makes things worse, not better.

While everyone is free to believe whatever they like, the 12 step program
uses duress to impose religion on anyone who seeks help from the 12 step
cult.

Sounds like you relapse frequently.
--
$|"^//\|<`/
12/15/2004 9:54:32 AM
"Would that a hawk pick you up, drive its beak into your brain,
and upon finding it rancid set you loose to fly briefly before
spattering the ocean rocks with the frothy pink shame of your
ignoble blood." - unknown
.

User: "Vanilla Gorilla Monkey Boy"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	13 Dec 2004 03:39:22 AM

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:55:36 +0200, "Bruce" <bruce@bruce.com> wrote in
alt.tasteless.jokes in message
<24kqr0hacqq2vujnkiu6avnenqrqdp3i8f@4ax.com>:

Read this article

Eat me, Bruce.
--
V.G.
Change pobox dot alaska to gci.
"Actually the Law of Conservation of Energy proves there's free energy." - Professor Alexa connects some brand new dots.
Sarcasm is my sword, Apathy is my shield.
.

User: "MarkA"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	13 Dec 2004 06:48:02 AM

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:55:36 +0200, Bruce wrote:

<snip tripe>
You miss one crucial difference. Suppose the IT/computer industry didn't
have to fix problems in machines that it designed, built, and understand.
Suppose you came across a giant supercomputer, using technology of which
you have very little understanding, and you are charged with keeping the
thing running. You are not allowed to turn it off, and there are no
replacement parts available. Fortunately, the thing is very well
designed, with lots of reserve capacity and limited ability for
self-repair.
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
.

User: "Bruce"
Title: Re: Do you want a clue? You certainly need one!	15 Dec 2004 01:01:11 AM

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 12:48:02 GMT, MarkA <manthony@stopspam.net> wrote in
message <pan.2004.12.13.12.48.53.132756@stopspam.net>:

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:55:36 +0200, Bruce wrote:

You miss one crucial difference. Suppose the IT/computer industry didn't
have to fix problems in machines that it designed, built, and understand.
Suppose you came across a giant supercomputer, using technology of which
you have very little understanding, and you are charged with keeping the
thing running. You are not allowed to turn it off, and there are no
replacement parts available. Fortunately, the thing is very well
designed, with lots of reserve capacity and limited ability for
self-repair.

The medical profession has a very long history of arrogance. They have
cultivated a professional image which is akin to a religious cult, of which
they are the high priests.
They invented their own language and technical terms which are impenetrable
to the layman. They have created a layered hierarchy which shuts out other
healers and maintains their hegemony in every country of this world.
They make misdiagnoses and prescribe treatments which are either ineffective
or indeed harmful.
With full knowledge that their treatments and interventions do not do much,
if anything, to alter the course of a disease, they still prescribe them,
giving the patient hope and taking his / her money. Desperate people with
terminal diseases have always been willing to grasp at any offered straw.
Certainly that was the case with tuberculosis. Medics knew full well that
they could not cure it, yet they offered, for exhorbitant fees, those same
interventions. The same is true today of drug rehabilitation clinics.
The 12 step program, called the Minnesota Model in rehabs to cunningly avoid
the so-called association with Narcotics Anonymous, relies on drug addicted
people being prepared to enroll themselves into a spiritual movement, which
turns out to be a cult.
Reliance upon God for a solution is not the answer for any given problem. If
you believe the contrary, then you are living in a fools' paradise. The
reason why religious philosophy is popular amongst many people in this world
is because it promises something for nothing and everyone wants that.
However, the bitter reality is that if any miracles are to be affected, we
will have to affect them ourselves. God did not render us any assistance to
cure TB. Many many people died from TB until we learned how to treat it
effectively. That treatment does not require weeks to be spent in expensive
clinics in the Swiss Alps, taking in the fresh mountain air. It requires the
simple ingestation of medication over a number of weeks. Effective treatment
for drug addiction is not spending weeks or months in rehabs followed up by
attending Narcotics Anonymous daily.
An effective treatment for drug addiction is vaccines. Currently there
exists one for cocaine. It is not available to the public yet because it is
so new. A person who is addicted to cocaine may be ordered by a court to
take the vaccine and from there on if they consume cocaine again, it will
have no effect on them. Withou