| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"dgillesp" |
| Date: |
26 Jan 2004 12:17:15 PM |
| Object: |
Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
What hope is there for humanity if the bottom line is as Ingersoll and
Russell believe???
"Life is a narrow veil between the cold and barren peaks of two
eternities. We strive in vain to look beyond the heights. We cry aloud,
and the only answer is the echo of our wailing cry.” Robert Ingersoll
“That man is the product of causes which have no prevision of the end
they are achieving: that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears,
his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental
collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought
and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all
the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in
the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of man's
achievement must inevitably be buried underneath the debris of a
universe in ruins. Only on the scaffolding of these truths, only on the
firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation be
safely built.” Bertrand Russell
Sounds eerily reminiscent of Dante's inscription at the entrance of hell
in The Divine Comedy: "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here."
methodios (Denny)
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
27 Jan 2004 04:30:59 AM |
|
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On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:17:15 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
What hope is there for humanity if the bottom line is as Ingersoll and
Russell believe???
"Life is a narrow veil between the cold and barren peaks of two
eternities. We strive in vain to look beyond the heights. We cry aloud,
and the only answer is the echo of our wailing cry.” Robert Ingersoll
“That man is the product of causes which have no prevision of the end
they are achieving: that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears,
his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental
collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought
and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all
the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in
the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of man's
achievement must inevitably be buried underneath the debris of a
universe in ruins. Only on the scaffolding of these truths, only on the
firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation be
safely built.” Bertrand Russell
Sounds eerily reminiscent of Dante's inscription at the entrance of hell
in The Divine Comedy: "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here."
Oh. So we should believe things *because* they're comforting and *not*
because they're true.
That explains a lot.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
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| User: "dgillesp" |
|
| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
27 Jan 2004 01:47:22 PM |
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Therion Ware wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:17:15 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
What hope is there for humanity if the bottom line is as Ingersoll and
Russell believe???
"Life is a narrow veil between the cold and barren peaks of two
eternities. We strive in vain to look beyond the heights. We cry aloud,
and the only answer is the echo of our wailing cry.” Robert Ingersoll
“That man is the product of causes which have no prevision of the end
they are achieving: that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears,
his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental
collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought
and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all
the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in
the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of man's
achievement must inevitably be buried underneath the debris of a
universe in ruins. Only on the scaffolding of these truths, only on the
firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation be
safely built.” Bertrand Russell
Sounds eerily reminiscent of Dante's inscription at the entrance of hell
in The Divine Comedy: "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here."
Oh. So we should believe things *because* they're comforting and *not*
because they're true.
Obviously we should not believe things simply because they're
comforting. But, then, how comforting do you find the concept of hell?
methodios (Denny)
That explains a lot.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
|
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
|
| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
27 Jan 2004 04:31:01 PM |
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On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:47:22 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
Therion Ware wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:17:15 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
What hope is there for humanity if the bottom line is as Ingersoll and
Russell believe???
"Life is a narrow veil between the cold and barren peaks of two
eternities. We strive in vain to look beyond the heights. We cry aloud,
and the only answer is the echo of our wailing cry.” Robert Ingersoll
“That man is the product of causes which have no prevision of the end
they are achieving: that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears,
his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental
collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought
and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all
the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in
the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of man's
achievement must inevitably be buried underneath the debris of a
universe in ruins. Only on the scaffolding of these truths, only on the
firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation be
safely built.” Bertrand Russell
Sounds eerily reminiscent of Dante's inscription at the entrance of hell
in The Divine Comedy: "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here."
Oh. So we should believe things *because* they're comforting and *not*
because they're true.
Obviously we should not believe things simply because they're
comforting. But, then, how comforting do you find the concept of hell?
Not presumably as comforting as you do.
And neither do I as you do, consent to it, and find it perfectly just,
and indeed a wonderful thing that some people should spend most of the
remainder of eternity screaming whatever passes for the lungs in the
afterlife, forever.
But that's just fine, eh? Just so long as it's not you who has to do
the screaming. After all, what's the unending pain of uncounted others
compared to your own guarantee of paradise?
Less than nothing, apparently.
[snip]
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
|
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| User: "dgillesp" |
|
| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
28 Jan 2004 12:22:31 PM |
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Therion Ware wrote:
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:47:22 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
Therion Ware wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:17:15 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
What hope is there for humanity if the bottom line is as Ingersoll and
Russell believe???
"Life is a narrow veil between the cold and barren peaks of two
eternities. We strive in vain to look beyond the heights. We cry aloud,
and the only answer is the echo of our wailing cry.” Robert Ingersoll
“That man is the product of causes which have no prevision of the end
they are achieving: that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears,
his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental
collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought
and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all
the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in
the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of man's
achievement must inevitably be buried underneath the debris of a
universe in ruins. Only on the scaffolding of these truths, only on the
firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation be
safely built.” Bertrand Russell
Sounds eerily reminiscent of Dante's inscription at the entrance of hell
in The Divine Comedy: "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here."
Oh. So we should believe things *because* they're comforting and *not*
because they're true.
Obviously we should not believe things simply because they're
comforting. But, then, how comforting do you find the concept of hell?
Not presumably as comforting as you do.
And neither do I as you do, consent to it, and find it perfectly just,
and indeed a wonderful thing that some people should spend most of the
remainder of eternity screaming whatever passes for the lungs in the
afterlife, forever.
"Heaven" and "hell" is the biblical language of consequences. I assume
everyone assumes there are consequences, both short and long term, to
our attitudes, thinking, character, and behavior. What we are and what
we have become may well follow us from this world to the next (which I
understand you do not believe). In other words, both heaven and hell
begin in the here and now.
But that's just fine, eh? Just so long as it's not you who has to do
the screaming.
I've done my share of the screaming in torment, haven't you? That is,
until I made some important changes in my attitude to life.
After all, what's the unending pain of uncounted others
compared to your own guarantee of paradise?
My own taste of hell caused me to identify and emphasize with other
sufferers, whatever the source of their pain, whether self inflicted or
not.
Less than nothing, apparently.
Appearance is often deceiving, right up there with false impressions.
methodios (Denny)
[snip]
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
|
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| User: "Michael Seven" |
|
| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
29 Jan 2004 12:10:42 AM |
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On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:22:31 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
Therion Ware wrote:
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:47:22 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
Therion Ware wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:17:15 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
What hope is there for humanity if the bottom line is as Ingersoll and
Russell believe???
"What hope is there for humanity" isn't a terribly complete question,
is it? To do what? Find a cure for cancer? Walk on the moon? End
war forever?
"Life is a narrow veil between the cold and barren peaks of two
eternities. We strive in vain to look beyond the heights. We cry aloud,
and the only answer is the echo of our wailing cry.” Robert Ingersoll
Quoted out of context, see other posts under this topic.
“That man is the product of causes which have no prevision of the end
they are achieving: that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears,
his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental
collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought
and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all
the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in
the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of man's
achievement must inevitably be buried underneath the debris of a
universe in ruins. Only on the scaffolding of these truths, only on the
firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation be
safely built.” Bertrand Russell
Also quoted out of context, see other posts under this topic.
Sounds eerily reminiscent of Dante's inscription at the entrance of hell
in The Divine Comedy: "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here."
They remind me more of Percy Bysshe Shelley's "Ozymandius."
http://www.internal.org/view_poem.phtml?poemID=292
Oh. So we should believe things *because* they're comforting and *not*
because they're true.
Obviously we should not believe things simply because they're
comforting. But, then, how comforting do you find the concept of hell?
So you don't get anywhere rationally and switch to threats?
Not presumably as comforting as you do.
And neither do I as you do, consent to it, and find it perfectly just,
and indeed a wonderful thing that some people should spend most of the
remainder of eternity screaming whatever passes for the lungs in the
afterlife, forever.
If I could stand by and watch others suffer, certainly whatever there
was of me would be as dead as if there were no afterlife at all. And
I would gladly suffer eternally rather than worship something capable
of such horrors.
"Heaven" and "hell" is the biblical language of consequences. I assume
everyone assumes there are consequences, both short and long term, to
our attitudes, thinking, character, and behavior. What we are and what
we have become may well follow us from this world to the next (which I
understand you do not believe). In other words, both heaven and hell
begin in the here and now.
I was almost with you until you started talking about that other world
crap. First prove there's another world, then we can talk about this
other stuff. I prefer to say Heaven and Hell are right here, and you
choose where you are. Me, I'm an atheist in Heaven because I see this
life that way. You obviously would be an atheist in Hell because you
chose to see your life that way.
But that's just fine, eh? Just so long as it's not you who has to do
the screaming.
I've done my share of the screaming in torment, haven't you? That is,
until I made some important changes in my attitude to life.
True, trying to figure out what the hell this god of yours wanted did
have me screaming in torment a time or two. Then I realized he wasn't
there and things got a whole lot better. Funny that. So many people
talk about how great life got when they found Jesus, but on
reflection, my life got worse for it. Giving it up was the best
decision I ever made.
After all, what's the unending pain of uncounted others
compared to your own guarantee of paradise?
My own taste of hell caused me to identify and emphasize with other
sufferers, whatever the source of their pain, whether self inflicted or
not.
Nice how you give it that little twist to make it sound like we're out
here hurting ourselves on purpose when it's your god who'd be doing it
to us in your belief system. Kinda like "Oh you know he's there,
you're just fooling yourselves."
Less than nothing, apparently.
Appearance is often deceiving, right up there with false impressions.
Yeah, funny that you take other people's word that your holy book is
true but expect me to believe you're thoughtful enough to actually
consider the above comment as more than a snooty comeback from you
when you're out of answers.
.
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
29 Jan 2004 08:07:46 AM |
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Michael Seven wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:22:31 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
Therion Ware wrote:
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:47:22 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
Therion Ware wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:17:15 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
What hope is there for humanity if the bottom line is as Ingersoll and
Russell believe???
"What hope is there for humanity" isn't a terribly complete question,
is it? To do what? Find a cure for cancer? Walk on the moon? End
war forever?
"Life is a narrow veil between the cold and barren peaks of two
eternities. We strive in vain to look beyond the heights. We cry aloud,
and the only answer is the echo of our wailing cry.” Robert Ingersoll
Quoted out of context, see other posts under this topic.
In context Ingersoll's quote continued reads, "From the voiceless lips
of the unreplying dead there comes no word; but in the night of death
Hope sees a star and listening Love can hear the rustle of a wing."
What in 'heaven's name' is "Hope that sees a star" and "Love that hears
the rustle of a wing"? Sounds ever so ethereal, vaporous, and
unwarranted given "belief" in the finality of his brother's death.
Reminds me of the same whistling in the dark theism is so regularly
accused of.
<snip>
Oh. So we should believe things *because* they're comforting and *not*
because they're true.
Obviously we should not believe things simply because they're
comforting. But, then, how comforting do you find the concept of hell?
So you don't get anywhere rationally and switch to threats?
You skewed my answer. He asked if we should believe things *because*
they are comforting. I merely replied that hell is hardly a comforting
belief.
Not presumably as comforting as you do.
And neither do I as you do, consent to it, and find it perfectly just,
and indeed a wonderful thing that some people should spend most of the
remainder of eternity screaming whatever passes for the lungs in the
afterlife, forever.
If I could stand by and watch others suffer, certainly whatever there
was of me would be as dead as if there were no afterlife at all. And
I would gladly suffer eternally rather than worship something capable
of such horrors.
"Heaven" and "hell" is the biblical language of consequences. I assume
everyone assumes there are consequences, both short and long term, to
our attitudes, thinking, character, and behavior. What we are and what
we have become may well follow us from this world to the next (which I
understand you do not believe). In other words, both heaven and hell
begin in the here and now.
I was almost with you until you started talking about that other world
crap. First prove there's another world, then we can talk about this
other stuff. I prefer to say Heaven and Hell are right here, and you
choose where you are. Me, I'm an atheist in Heaven because I see this
life that way. You obviously would be an atheist in Hell because you
chose to see your life that way.
But that's just fine, eh? Just so long as it's not you who has to do
the screaming.
I've done my share of the screaming in torment, haven't you? That is,
until I made some important changes in my attitude to life.
True, trying to figure out what the hell this god of yours wanted did
have me screaming in torment a time or two. Then I realized he wasn't
there and things got a whole lot better. Funny that. So many people
talk about how great life got when they found Jesus, but on
reflection, my life got worse for it. Giving it up was the best
decision I ever made.
After all, what's the unending pain of uncounted others
compared to your own guarantee of paradise?
My own taste of hell caused me to identify and emphasize with other
sufferers, whatever the source of their pain, whether self inflicted or
not.
Nice how you give it that little twist to make it sound like we're out
here hurting ourselves on purpose
Only masochists hurt themselves on purpose. The rest of us do so
inadvertently.
when it's your god who'd be doing it
to us in your belief system.
The human condition has inherent perameters and consequences for
respecting or ignoring them. God doesn't "do it to us", we do it to
ourselves.
Kinda like "Oh you know he's there,
you're just fooling yourselves."
I get blamed all the time for fundamentalist attitudes toward
non-believers. My former atheist son-in-law's bumper sticker read,
"Assume nothing". I'll drink to that.
Less than nothing, apparently.
Appearance is often deceiving, right up there with false impressions.
Yeah, funny that you take other people's word that your holy book is
true but expect me to believe you're thoughtful enough to actually
consider the above comment as more than a snooty comeback from you
when you're out of answers.
And so there!?
methodios (Denny)
.
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| User: "Michael Seven" |
|
| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
29 Jan 2004 01:16:34 PM |
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On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:07:46 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
Michael Seven wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:22:31 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
Therion Ware wrote:
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:47:22 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
Therion Ware wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:17:15 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
What hope is there for humanity if the bottom line is as Ingersoll and
Russell believe???
"What hope is there for humanity" isn't a terribly complete question,
is it? To do what? Find a cure for cancer? Walk on the moon? End
war forever?
"Life is a narrow veil between the cold and barren peaks of two
eternities. We strive in vain to look beyond the heights. We cry aloud,
and the only answer is the echo of our wailing cry.” Robert Ingersoll
Quoted out of context, see other posts under this topic.
In context Ingersoll's quote continued reads, "From the voiceless lips
of the unreplying dead there comes no word; but in the night of death
Hope sees a star and listening Love can hear the rustle of a wing."
What in 'heaven's name' is "Hope that sees a star" and "Love that hears
the rustle of a wing"? Sounds ever so ethereal, vaporous, and
unwarranted given "belief" in the finality of his brother's death.
Reminds me of the same whistling in the dark theism is so regularly
accused of.
Well, it was a eulogy. And quite poetic in general. It also seemed
to be delivered to a mixed audience. The speech seemed to focus
mostly on his brother's life and the good he did and trying to build
some common ground between the two camps so at least they wouldn't be
getting into the whole religion debate over his brother's grave. Give
the whole thing a second read, it's online after all, only took me a
minute to locate it on Yahoo.
<snip>
Oh. So we should believe things *because* they're comforting and *not*
because they're true.
Obviously we should not believe things simply because they're
comforting. But, then, how comforting do you find the concept of hell?
So you don't get anywhere rationally and switch to threats?
You skewed my answer. He asked if we should believe things *because*
they are comforting. I merely replied that hell is hardly a comforting
belief.
My apologies then. If the point simply is that you don't find hell a
comforting thought, but you believe it anyway, then fair enough, you
don't only believe in something that gives you comfort.
<snip>
Nice how you give it that little twist to make it sound like we're out
here hurting ourselves on purpose
Only masochists hurt themselves on purpose. The rest of us do so
inadvertently.
when it's your god who'd be doing it
to us in your belief system.
The human condition has inherent perameters and consequences for
respecting or ignoring them. God doesn't "do it to us", we do it to
ourselves.
He indeed does, if he's the all powerful, all knowing guy that he's
painted to be. He supposedly made me, he knew what I'd do from the
word "go." So how am I responsible for my actions under such a
system? I have no free will, I'm just a clockwork creation who
follows it's programming like it's supposed to.
But that's not all, here's where I was actually going with that
comment. It's his rules, his system, his punishment. Are you telling
me he's not ultimately responsible for his own actions? Sure, he may
not like what I do, but it's entirely up to him how he's going to
react. Same as it's entirely my responsibility how I react to what
you have to say. If I've got free will, then surely God must.
Kinda like "Oh you know he's there,
you're just fooling yourselves."
I get blamed all the time for fundamentalist attitudes toward
non-believers. My former atheist son-in-law's bumper sticker read,
"Assume nothing". I'll drink to that.
I'm only going by what you're saying. If I'm making an error, I'll
apologize, but what I said is not a fundamentalist attitude, it
permeates society. Even the most liberal-minded Christians tend to
assume that "Oh, he'll see the light eventually." The greatest
assumption being made here is that there's some light to be seen, that
a god exists. If you truly wish to assume nothing, you can't very
well go and assume something as huge as that without the slightest
shred of proof.
Less than nothing, apparently.
Appearance is often deceiving, right up there with false impressions.
Yeah, funny that you take other people's word that your holy book is
true but expect me to believe you're thoughtful enough to actually
consider the above comment as more than a snooty comeback from you
when you're out of answers.
And so there!?
Alright, I apologize for being catty. Appearances are deceiving is
such a cliched phrase, it came off as a pat answer when it wasn't
intended to be.
.
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| User: "dgillesp" |
|
| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
29 Jan 2004 07:27:10 PM |
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|
Michael Seven wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:07:46 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
Michael Seven wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:22:31 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
Therion Ware wrote:
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:47:22 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
Therion Ware wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:17:15 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
What hope is there for humanity if the bottom line is as Ingersoll and
Russell believe???
"What hope is there for humanity" isn't a terribly complete question,
is it? To do what? Find a cure for cancer? Walk on the moon? End
war forever?
"Life is a narrow veil between the cold and barren peaks of two
eternities. We strive in vain to look beyond the heights. We cry aloud,
and the only answer is the echo of our wailing cry.” Robert Ingersoll
Quoted out of context, see other posts under this topic.
In context Ingersoll's quote continued reads, "From the voiceless lips
of the unreplying dead there comes no word; but in the night of death
Hope sees a star and listening Love can hear the rustle of a wing."
What in 'heaven's name' is "Hope that sees a star" and "Love that hears
the rustle of a wing"? Sounds ever so ethereal, vaporous, and
unwarranted given "belief" in the finality of his brother's death.
Reminds me of the same whistling in the dark theism is so regularly
accused of.
Well, it was a eulogy. And quite poetic in general. It also seemed
to be delivered to a mixed audience. The speech seemed to focus
mostly on his brother's life and the good he did and trying to build
some common ground between the two camps so at least they wouldn't be
getting into the whole religion debate over his brother's grave. Give
the whole thing a second read, it's online after all, only took me a
minute to locate it on Yahoo.
<snip>
Oh. So we should believe things *because* they're comforting and *not*
because they're true.
Obviously we should not believe things simply because they're
comforting. But, then, how comforting do you find the concept of hell?
So you don't get anywhere rationally and switch to threats?
You skewed my answer. He asked if we should believe things *because*
they are comforting. I merely replied that hell is hardly a comforting
belief.
My apologies then. If the point simply is that you don't find hell a
comforting thought, but you believe it anyway, then fair enough, you
don't only believe in something that gives you comfort.
<snip>
Nice how you give it that little twist to make it sound like we're out
here hurting ourselves on purpose
Only masochists hurt themselves on purpose. The rest of us do so
inadvertently.
when it's your god who'd be doing it
to us in your belief system.
The human condition has inherent perameters and consequences for
respecting or ignoring them. God doesn't "do it to us", we do it to
ourselves.
He indeed does, if he's the all powerful, all knowing guy that he's
painted to be. He supposedly made me, he knew what I'd do from the
word "go." So how am I responsible for my actions under such a
system? I have no free will, I'm just a clockwork creation who
follows it's programming like it's supposed to.
Obviously you do not feel like a clockwork creation, programmed to the
nth degree, and having absolutely no responsiblity for your actions.
Nobody is going to convince you otherwise, you know that existentially
and experientially. Even if you came to believe in an all-knowing and
all-powerful God that would not change your self-perception whatsoever.
Why? Because if God is truly all-knowing and all-powerful, he *knows*
how and is *able* to give the gift of free will to his creation.
Otherwise he would NOT be all-knowing and all-powerful.
We may not be able to understand how this could be the case, but then we
ourselves are NOT all-knowing.
But that's not all, here's where I was actually going with that
comment. It's his rules, his system, his punishment. Are you telling
me he's not ultimately responsible for his own actions? Sure, he may
not like what I do, but it's entirely up to him how he's going to
react. Same as it's entirely my responsibility how I react to what
you have to say. If I've got free will, then surely God must.
Kinda like "Oh you know he's there,
you're just fooling yourselves."
I get blamed all the time for fundamentalist attitudes toward
non-believers. My former atheist son-in-law's bumper sticker read,
"Assume nothing". I'll drink to that.
I'm only going by what you're saying. If I'm making an error, I'll
apologize, but what I said is not a fundamentalist attitude, it
permeates society. Even the most liberal-minded Christians tend to
assume that "Oh, he'll see the light eventually." The greatest
assumption being made here is that there's some light to be seen, that
a god exists. If you truly wish to assume nothing, you can't very
well go and assume something as huge as that without the slightest
shred of proof.
Less than nothing, apparently.
Appearance is often deceiving, right up there with false impressions.
Yeah, funny that you take other people's word that your holy book is
true but expect me to believe you're thoughtful enough to actually
consider the above comment as more than a snooty comeback from you
when you're out of answers.
And so there!?
Alright, I apologize for being catty. Appearances are deceiving is
such a cliched phrase, it came off as a pat answer when it wasn't
intended to be.
Thanks for your fair-mindedness and benevolent attitude. I appreciated
your reply very much.
methodios (Denny)
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
31 Jan 2004 11:59:39 AM |
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On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 20:27:10 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>,
Message ID: <4019B2EE.14F8149C@pemtel.net> wrote in alt.atheism;
Michael Seven wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:07:46 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
(snip)
The human condition has inherent perameters and consequences for
respecting or ignoring them. God doesn't "do it to us", we do it to
ourselves.
He indeed does, if he's the all powerful, all knowing guy that he's
painted to be. He supposedly made me, he knew what I'd do from the
word "go." So how am I responsible for my actions under such a
system? I have no free will, I'm just a clockwork creation who
follows it's programming like it's supposed to.
Obviously you do not feel like a clockwork creation, programmed to the
nth degree, and having absolutely no responsiblity for your actions.
Nobody is going to convince you otherwise, you know that existentially
and experientially. Even if you came to believe in an all-knowing and
all-powerful God that would not change your self-perception whatsoever.
Sure it would. But you knew that a long time ago.
Why? Because if God is truly all-knowing and all-powerful, he *knows*
how and is *able* to give the gift of free will to his creation.
Nope. "God's" being wrong over the simplest thing-such as what I have
for lunch (if I even have lunch) eliminates 'all-knowing' and
"all-powerful" doesn't come into play. But you knew that a long time
ago.
The problem for Christians is the word omni which means all which means
without restriction. But you knew that a long time ago.
Otherwise he would NOT be all-knowing and all-powerful.
We may not be able to understand how this could be the case,
It can't. Period. But you knew that a long time ago.
but then we ourselves are NOT all-knowing.
Yes, but some of us are able to discern fantasy from reality.
Denny, how many times are you intending on going around in your 'hamster
wheel' this time? You're posting the same ***** you've been posting
for years. It's now clear you haven't learned anything and are too
terrified to be able to. I withdraw my earlier defense of you. Its
quite clear you haven't changed. I had done you the courtesy of giving
you the benefit of the doubt. Its clear I was gravely mistaken. Denny
continues to disobey "Jesus" by his casual and unrepentant bearing of
false witness.
(snip)
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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| User: "dgillesp" |
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| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
01 Feb 2004 04:46:55 PM |
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stoney wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 20:27:10 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>,
Message ID: <4019B2EE.14F8149C@pemtel.net> wrote in alt.atheism;
Michael Seven wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:07:46 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
(snip)
The human condition has inherent perameters and consequences for
respecting or ignoring them. God doesn't "do it to us", we do it to
ourselves.
He indeed does, if he's the all powerful, all knowing guy that he's
painted to be. He supposedly made me, he knew what I'd do from the
word "go." So how am I responsible for my actions under such a
system? I have no free will, I'm just a clockwork creation who
follows it's programming like it's supposed to.
Obviously you do not feel like a clockwork creation, programmed to the
nth degree, and having absolutely no responsiblity for your actions.
Nobody is going to convince you otherwise, you know that existentially
and experientially. Even if you came to believe in an all-knowing and
all-powerful God that would not change your self-perception whatsoever.
Sure it would. But you knew that a long time ago.
Why? Because if God is truly all-knowing and all-powerful, he *knows*
how and is *able* to give the gift of free will to his creation.
Nope. "God's" being wrong over the simplest thing-such as what I have
for lunch (if I even have lunch) eliminates 'all-knowing' and
"all-powerful" doesn't come into play. But you knew that a long time
ago.
The problem for Christians is the word omni which means all which means
without restriction. But you knew that a long time ago.
Otherwise he would NOT be all-knowing and all-powerful.
We may not be able to understand how this could be the case,
It can't. Period. But you knew that a long time ago.
but then we ourselves are NOT all-knowing.
Yes, but some of us are able to discern fantasy from reality.
Denny, how many times are you intending on going around in your 'hamster
wheel' this time? You're posting the same ***** you've been posting
for years.
Funny, I was just thinking how little the arguments have changed on this
NG. Except that over all there don't seem to be as many primal screams
at those with whom one disagrees, or as much mud slinging as before,
indicative of some maturation and a little more sophistication.
It's now clear you haven't learned anything and are too
terrified to be able to.
By that I assume you mean I am still a died-in-the-wool Christian. You
are correct.
I withdraw my earlier defense of you. Its
quite clear you haven't changed.
I had done you the courtesy of giving
you the benefit of the doubt. Its clear I was gravely mistaken. Denny
continues to disobey "Jesus" by his casual and unrepentant bearing of
false witness.
Perhaps I'm not in such bad company after all. "For many bore false
witness against [Jesus], and their witness did not agree." (Mark 14:56)
Denny
(snip)
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
03 Feb 2004 07:09:35 PM |
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On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 17:46:55 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>,
Message ID: <401D81DF.40E54D98@pemtel.net> wrote in alt.atheism;
stoney wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 20:27:10 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>,
Message ID: <4019B2EE.14F8149C@pemtel.net> wrote in alt.atheism;
Michael Seven wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 09:07:46 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
(snip)
The human condition has inherent perameters and consequences for
respecting or ignoring them. God doesn't "do it to us", we do it to
ourselves.
He indeed does, if he's the all powerful, all knowing guy that he's
painted to be. He supposedly made me, he knew what I'd do from the
word "go." So how am I responsible for my actions under such a
system? I have no free will, I'm just a clockwork creation who
follows it's programming like it's supposed to.
Obviously you do not feel like a clockwork creation, programmed to the
nth degree, and having absolutely no responsiblity for your actions.
Nobody is going to convince you otherwise, you know that existentially
and experientially. Even if you came to believe in an all-knowing and
all-powerful God that would not change your self-perception whatsoever.
Sure it would. But you knew that a long time ago.
Why? Because if God is truly all-knowing and all-powerful, he *knows*
how and is *able* to give the gift of free will to his creation.
Nope. "God's" being wrong over the simplest thing-such as what I have
for lunch (if I even have lunch) eliminates 'all-knowing' and
"all-powerful" doesn't come into play. But you knew that a long time
ago.
The problem for Christians is the word omni which means all which means
without restriction. But you knew that a long time ago.
Otherwise he would NOT be all-knowing and all-powerful.
We may not be able to understand how this could be the case,
It can't. Period. But you knew that a long time ago.
but then we ourselves are NOT all-knowing.
Yes, but some of us are able to discern fantasy from reality.
Denny, how many times are you intending on going around in your 'hamster
wheel' this time? You're posting the same ***** you've been posting
for years.
Funny, I was just thinking how little the arguments have changed on this
NG. Except that over all there don't seem to be as many primal screams
at those with whom one disagrees, or as much mud slinging as before,
indicative of some maturation and a little more sophistication.
How can you expect the rebuttal, examination of ramifications and
reprecussions of things to change when you keep repeating the same
drivel?
It's now clear you haven't learned anything and are too
terrified to be able to.
By that I assume you mean I am still a died-in-the-wool Christian. You
are correct.
Please point out *anywhere* where I've suggested anything about you
giving up your beliefs? Once again, that you are a theist is your
personal business. Period.
Once again you support my prior statement; "you haven't learned anything
and are too terrified to be able to." (shrug) That's your problem, not
mine.
I withdraw my earlier defense of you. Its
quite clear you haven't changed.
I had done you the courtesy of giving
you the benefit of the doubt. Its clear I was gravely mistaken. Denny
continues to disobey "Jesus" by his casual and unrepentant bearing of
false witness.
Perhaps I'm not in such bad company after all. "For many bore false
witness against [Jesus], and their witness did not agree." (Mark 14:56)
(sneer) And Dorothy really really *did* translocate back to Kansas by
clicking her heels together thrice and chanting an incantation.
You're toast, Denny.
Proverbs 6 (kjv)
16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea,
seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands
that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations,
feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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| User: "Fly" |
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| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
29 Jan 2004 02:03:47 PM |
|
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dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net> wrote in message news:<401913B2.8C334B7A@pemtel.net>...
Michael Seven wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:22:31 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
Therion Ware wrote:
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:47:22 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
Therion Ware wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:17:15 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
What hope is there for humanity if the bottom line is as Ingersoll and
Russell believe???
"What hope is there for humanity" isn't a terribly complete question,
is it? To do what? Find a cure for cancer? Walk on the moon? End
war forever?
"Life is a narrow veil between the cold and barren peaks of two
eternities. We strive in vain to look beyond the heights. We cry aloud,
and the only answer is the echo of our wailing cry.? Robert Ingersoll
Quoted out of context, see other posts under this topic.
In context Ingersoll's quote continued reads, "From the voiceless lips
of the unreplying dead there comes no word; but in the night of death
Hope sees a star and listening Love can hear the rustle of a wing."
What in 'heaven's name' is "Hope that sees a star" and "Love that hears
the rustle of a wing"? Sounds ever so ethereal, vaporous, and
unwarranted given "belief" in the finality of his brother's death.
Reminds me of the same whistling in the dark theism is so regularly
accused of.
<snip>
Oh. So we should believe things *because* they're comforting and *not*
because they're true.
Obviously we should not believe things simply because they're
comforting. But, then, how comforting do you find the concept of hell?
So you don't get anywhere rationally and switch to threats?
You skewed my answer. He asked if we should believe things *because*
they are comforting. I merely replied that hell is hardly a comforting
belief.
Not presumably as comforting as you do.
And neither do I as you do, consent to it, and find it perfectly just,
and indeed a wonderful thing that some people should spend most of the
remainder of eternity screaming whatever passes for the lungs in the
afterlife, forever.
If I could stand by and watch others suffer, certainly whatever there
was of me would be as dead as if there were no afterlife at all. And
I would gladly suffer eternally rather than worship something capable
of such horrors.
"Heaven" and "hell" is the biblical language of consequences. I assume
everyone assumes there are consequences, both short and long term, to
our attitudes, thinking, character, and behavior. What we are and what
we have become may well follow us from this world to the next (which I
understand you do not believe). In other words, both heaven and hell
begin in the here and now.
I was almost with you until you started talking about that other world
crap. First prove there's another world, then we can talk about this
other stuff. I prefer to say Heaven and Hell are right here, and you
choose where you are. Me, I'm an atheist in Heaven because I see this
life that way. You obviously would be an atheist in Hell because you
chose to see your life that way.
But that's just fine, eh? Just so long as it's not you who has to do
the screaming.
I've done my share of the screaming in torment, haven't you? That is,
until I made some important changes in my attitude to life.
True, trying to figure out what the hell this god of yours wanted did
have me screaming in torment a time or two. Then I realized he wasn't
there and things got a whole lot better. Funny that. So many people
talk about how great life got when they found Jesus, but on
reflection, my life got worse for it. Giving it up was the best
decision I ever made.
After all, what's the unending pain of uncounted others
compared to your own guarantee of paradise?
My own taste of hell caused me to identify and emphasize with other
sufferers, whatever the source of their pain, whether self inflicted or
not.
Nice how you give it that little twist to make it sound like we're out
here hurting ourselves on purpose
Only masochists hurt themselves on purpose. The rest of us do so
inadvertently.
when it's your god who'd be doing it
to us in your belief system.
The human condition has inherent perameters and consequences for
respecting or ignoring them. God doesn't "do it to us", we do it to
ourselves.
Kinda like "Oh you know he's there,
you're just fooling yourselves."
I get blamed all the time for fundamentalist attitudes toward
non-believers. My former atheist son-in-law's bumper sticker read,
"Assume nothing". I'll drink to that.
Less than nothing, apparently.
Appearance is often deceiving, right up there with false impressions.
Yeah, funny that you take other people's word that your holy book is
true but expect me to believe you're thoughtful enough to actually
consider the above comment as more than a snooty comeback from you
when you're out of answers.
And so there!?
methodios (Denny)
Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity?
( Fly)
Well it would do for The 2 Individuals a very young man and middle
aged man what are on death row in Packistan for showing there self
opinions in the 21st century.
By not being religously executed
.
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| User: "Fly" |
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| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
30 Jan 2004 11:37:18 AM |
|
|
dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net> wrote in message news:<401913B2.8C334B7A@pemtel.net>...
Michael Seven wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:22:31 -0500, dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net>
wrote:
Therion Ware wrote:
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:47:22 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
Therion Ware wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:17:15 -0500 in alt.atheism, dgillesp (dgillesp
<dgillesp@pemtel.net>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
What hope is there for humanity if the bottom line is as Ingersoll and
Russell believe???
"What hope is there for humanity" isn't a terribly complete question,
is it? To do what? Find a cure for cancer? Walk on the moon? End
war forever?
"Life is a narrow veil between the cold and barren peaks of two
eternities. We strive in vain to look beyond the heights. We cry aloud,
and the only answer is the echo of our wailing cry.? Robert Ingersoll
Quoted out of context, see other posts under this topic.
In context Ingersoll's quote continued reads, "From the voiceless lips
of the unreplying dead there comes no word; but in the night of death
Hope sees a star and listening Love can hear the rustle of a wing."
What in 'heaven's name' is "Hope that sees a star" and "Love that hears
the rustle of a wing"? Sounds ever so ethereal, vaporous, and
unwarranted given "belief" in the finality of his brother's death.
Reminds me of the same whistling in the dark theism is so regularly
accused of.
<snip>
Oh. So we should believe things *because* they're comforting and *not*
because they're true.
Obviously we should not believe things simply because they're
comforting. But, then, how comforting do you find the concept of hell?
So you don't get anywhere rationally and switch to threats?
You skewed my answer. He asked if we should believe things *because*
they are comforting. I merely replied that hell is hardly a comforting
belief.
Not presumably as comforting as you do.
And neither do I as you do, consent to it, and find it perfectly just,
and indeed a wonderful thing that some people should spend most of the
remainder of eternity screaming whatever passes for the lungs in the
afterlife, forever.
If I could stand by and watch others suffer, certainly whatever there
was of me would be as dead as if there were no afterlife at all. And
I would gladly suffer eternally rather than worship something capable
of such horrors.
"Heaven" and "hell" is the biblical language of consequences. I assume
everyone assumes there are consequences, both short and long term, to
our attitudes, thinking, character, and behavior. What we are and what
we have become may well follow us from this world to the next (which I
understand you do not believe). In other words, both heaven and hell
begin in the here and now.
I was almost with you until you started talking about that other world
crap. First prove there's another world, then we can talk about this
other stuff. I prefer to say Heaven and Hell are right here, and you
choose where you are. Me, I'm an atheist in Heaven because I see this
life that way. You obviously would be an atheist in Hell because you
chose to see your life that way.
But that's just fine, eh? Just so long as it's not you who has to do
the screaming.
I've done my share of the screaming in torment, haven't you? That is,
until I made some important changes in my attitude to life.
True, trying to figure out what the hell this god of yours wanted did
have me screaming in torment a time or two. Then I realized he wasn't
there and things got a whole lot better. Funny that. So many people
talk about how great life got when they found Jesus, but on
reflection, my life got worse for it. Giving it up was the best
decision I ever made.
After all, what's the unending pain of uncounted others
compared to your own guarantee of paradise?
My own taste of hell caused me to identify and emphasize with other
sufferers, whatever the source of their pain, whether self inflicted or
not.
Nice how you give it that little twist to make it sound like we're out
here hurting ourselves on purpose
Only masochists hurt themselves on purpose. The rest of us do so
inadvertently.
when it's your god who'd be doing it
to us in your belief system.
The human condition has inherent perameters and consequences for
respecting or ignoring them. God doesn't "do it to us", we do it to
ourselves.
Kinda like "Oh you know he's there,
you're just fooling yourselves."
I get blamed all the time for fundamentalist attitudes toward
non-believers. My former atheist son-in-law's bumper sticker read,
"Assume nothing". I'll drink to that.
Less than nothing, apparently.
Appearance is often deceiving, right up there with false impressions.
Yeah, funny that you take other people's word that your holy book is
true but expect me to believe you're thoughtful enough to actually
consider the above comment as more than a snooty comeback from you
when you're out of answers.
And so there!?
methodios (Denny)
(fly)
Does Atheism offer any real hope for Humanity.
It would have to the Individuals below from
Ludovic Kennnedy book. " A farewell to God"
REf Extract;
In Renfrewshire, west of Glasgow.
Katherine Campell, three respectable local farmers,
two old woman, one whose mind had almost gone, and the local midwife,
described as a comely woman with bright pink cheeks and kind eyes who
had practised her profession in the parish for thirty years and was
known as a good woman and true christian.For there defence Mr
Robertson called for common sense and what the law had laid down that
accussed witches were never to be condemned until they had confessed
and even then confessions
must be confirmed by other evidence. And none had confessed.It did the
defendants no good. the jury brought in a verdict of guilty against
all seven and then the Judge ordered them
o be taken to the gallow green at Paisley
upon the second
thurdsday of June next being the tenth day of the
month between
two and four in four in the afternoon and there to strangled
at the stake
till they be dead, and their bodies immediately
to be
burned to
ashes upon the said place, and all their moveable goods
and gear to
be brought to his Majesty's use which is pronounced
for doom
June 10th dawned bright and Sunny and hundreds of people from Glasglow
and the west of Scotland began arriving early at the green.Many were
making it a family occasion,bringing children and picnics to while
away the hours until the time appointed for the executions.In a good
position for watching the proceeding were the carriages of three or
four noblemen who were entertaining their friends.Soon after one o
clock the prison gates were opened and the innocent seven preceded by
a drummer beating the dead march, guarded by a posse of soldiers, and
with their hands tied behind thier backs, filed slowly out. The three
men, determined, to die well, had all put on their Sunday suits.When
they reached the gallows green they saw that beside the scaffold a
peat fire was burning and knew it was there to consume their bodies
after they had been hanged.The hangman, who was the local
chimney-sweep, despatched them one after the other.Katherine, once a
healthy a, buxon girl was now, after months in prison, pitful sight,
her hair
all matted,her face a deathty white.But she still had fight in her, on
the scaffold throwing herself against hangman and screaming insults.
as the noose was about to be tied round her neck,there was a murmur
from the crowd,
' Let her speak'
' She did, and many of the spectators, distressed that one so young
and far from home should have to die, she said . 'O' Sirs '' would you
stand by and see a young lass hanged' ? What they just taken from the
two old women before me . Since from her they were taking her youth
and the husband children she might have.In a high, wailing voice, she
showed, her grief to all.' Let me sing my last song ' Oh, that I
could be a bird, to fly away and never tire till I perched on my ain
rooftree.' To those in the crowed who were weeping openly ,keep your
tears. they'll do no good for you or me.
Let me go free, and I promise you you'll never see hint or hair of me
again.'
One of the bailiffs signalled the hangman to go ahead, and seeing him
approach,
katherine let out a fearful scream.and then as she was thrown
over the ladder, the scream dying in her mouth, she caught hold of its
side in a last desperate attempt to save herself, and wedged her head
between the crossbars of the ladder. the hangman threw her clear.For
many of the spectators katherine's ordeal had been
altogether too much; several fainted and had to be laid out on the
grass.
The last to go was the saintly midwife, Margaret Lang.and then it was
time for the final enactment of the day
The seven bodies were coated in tar to make them burn quicker,
then laid on the peat fire; and soon there came to the nostrils of the
already departing crowd the sweet,sicky smell of roasting human flesh.
Nearing the 19century in Northern France In 1766
A young Chevalier was walking along a street in Abbeville.
A religious procession passed by. Because it was raining the
Chevalier did not lift his hat in polite greeting as was then the
custom. This was observed and reported and the Chevalier was arrested.
The charge against him was blasphemy .He was found guilty.
The sentence of the court was amputation of the hands, the togue to
be torn out with pincers and then for him to burned alive. Yet this
was the age of hayden and mozaet of gainsborough and fragonard,of
boswell and fragonard.
( Ref; Ludovic kennedy- "All In The Mind - A Farewell To God )
.
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| User: "Abner Mintz" |
|
| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
29 Jan 2004 06:35:29 PM |
|
|
dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net> wrote:
He asked if we should believe things *because*
they are comforting. I merely replied that hell is hardly a comforting
belief.
I have talked with several theists to whom the concept of hell was
apparently quite comforting - it allowed them to glory in the
tortures that would eventually be suffered by those who disagreed
with them. The people who disagreed with them might seem to have
pleasant lives now, but just wait ... and from that they took great
comfort.
.
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| User: "Michelle Malkin" |
|
| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
29 Jan 2004 10:02:49 PM |
|
|
"Abner Mintz" <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1g8c91h.x5dol01x5yh34N%abnermintz@earthlink.net...
dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net> wrote:
He asked if we should believe things *because*
they are comforting. I merely replied that hell is hardly a comforting
belief.
I have talked with several theists to whom the concept of hell was
apparently quite comforting - it allowed them to glory in the
tortures that would eventually be suffered by those who disagreed
with them. The people who disagreed with them might seem to have
pleasant lives now, but just wait ... and from that they took great
comfort.
Further proof of how Christianity can warp peoples' minds.
For people to find comfort in the idea that those who disagree
with their beliefs will suffer in agony forever is truly disgusting.
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
30 Jan 2004 02:00:05 AM |
|
|
In article <mqmdnS5Ucrn-SoTdRVn-gg@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
"Abner Mintz" <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1g8c91h.x5dol01x5yh34N%abnermintz@earthlink.net...
dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net> wrote:
He asked if we should believe things *because*
they are comforting. I merely replied that hell is hardly a comforting
belief.
I have talked with several theists to whom the concept of hell was
apparently quite comforting - it allowed them to glory in the
tortures that would eventually be suffered by those who disagreed
with them. The people who disagreed with them might seem to have
pleasant lives now, but just wait ... and from that they took great
comfort.
Further proof of how Christianity can warp peoples' minds.
For people to find comfort in the idea that those who disagree
with their beliefs will suffer in agony forever is truly disgusting.
Some might even revel in the idea.
From:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/heaven.htm
---
Another question raised by orthodox Christian theology is this: How
could those who go to heaven ever be happy when they knew of the
terrible atrocities being inflicted on the damned in hell? The early
Christian theologian Tertullian apparently had no problem with this. He
said that he actually looked forward to the day when, after joining the
elect in heaven, he would see all those who had opposed Christianity
burning in the flames of hell. He wrote: 'Oh, what shall be the
magnitude of the scene. How I shall laugh! How I shall rejoice! How I
shall triumph!' (Clearly Christian charity was not one his stronger
points!)
---
If watching people being tortured for all eternity is one of the
'delights' of heaven, I want no part of it or any religion that teaches
it.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Men become civilized not in their willingness to believe, bit in
proportion to their readiness to doubt." - H. L. Mencken
.
|
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| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
31 Jan 2004 12:08:21 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 00:00:05 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpresremove.com>,
Message ID: <jhachm-9F0D58.00000530012004@news-60.giganews.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;
In article <mqmdnS5Ucrn-SoTdRVn-gg@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
"Abner Mintz" <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1g8c91h.x5dol01x5yh34N%abnermintz@earthlink.net...
dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net> wrote:
He asked if we should believe things *because*
they are comforting. I merely replied that hell is hardly a comforting
belief.
I have talked with several theists to whom the concept of hell was
apparently quite comforting - it allowed them to glory in the
tortures that would eventually be suffered by those who disagreed
with them. The people who disagreed with them might seem to have
pleasant lives now, but just wait ... and from that they took great
comfort.
Further proof of how Christianity can warp peoples' minds.
For people to find comfort in the idea that those who disagree
with their beliefs will suffer in agony forever is truly disgusting.
Some might even revel in the idea.
From:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/heaven.htm
---
Another question raised by orthodox Christian theology is this: How
could those who go to heaven ever be happy when they knew of the
terrible atrocities being inflicted on the damned in hell? The early
Christian theologian Tertullian apparently had no problem with this. He
said that he actually looked forward to the day when, after joining the
elect in heaven, he would see all those who had opposed Christianity
burning in the flames of hell. He wrote: 'Oh, what shall be the
magnitude of the scene. How I shall laugh! How I shall rejoice! How I
shall triumph!' (Clearly Christian charity was not one his stronger
points!)
That *was* Christian 'Charity.' :\
Imagine his gurgle of horror when he found himself writhing in the
'flames that will not be quenched.'
---
If watching people being tortured for all eternity is one of the
'delights' of heaven, I want no part of it or any religion that teaches
it.
Christianity is the epitome of perversion.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
01 Feb 2004 02:38:31 AM |
|
|
In article <llrn109ctlitb2t307v85hosdenk919jc5@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 00:00:05 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpresremove.com>,
Message ID: <jhachm-9F0D58.00000530012004@news-60.giganews.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;
In article <mqmdnS5Ucrn-SoTdRVn-gg@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
"Abner Mintz" <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1g8c91h.x5dol01x5yh34N%abnermintz@earthlink.net...
dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net> wrote:
He asked if we should believe things *because*
they are comforting. I merely replied that hell is hardly a comforting
belief.
I have talked with several theists to whom the concept of hell was
apparently quite comforting - it allowed them to glory in the
tortures that would eventually be suffered by those who disagreed
with them. The people who disagreed with them might seem to have
pleasant lives now, but just wait ... and from that they took great
comfort.
Further proof of how Christianity can warp peoples' minds.
For people to find comfort in the idea that those who disagree
with their beliefs will suffer in agony forever is truly disgusting.
Some might even revel in the idea.
From:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/heaven.htm
---
Another question raised by orthodox Christian theology is this: How
could those who go to heaven ever be happy when they knew of the
terrible atrocities being inflicted on the damned in hell? The early
Christian theologian Tertullian apparently had no problem with this. He
said that he actually looked forward to the day when, after joining the
elect in heaven, he would see all those who had opposed Christianity
burning in the flames of hell. He wrote: 'Oh, what shall be the
magnitude of the scene. How I shall laugh! How I shall rejoice! How I
shall triumph!' (Clearly Christian charity was not one his stronger
points!)
That *was* Christian 'Charity.' :\
Imagine his gurgle of horror when he found himself writhing in the
'flames that will not be quenched.'
I suppose that your viewpoint changes when you switch from barbecuer to
barbecuee.
---
If watching people being tortured for all eternity is one of the
'delights' of heaven, I want no part of it or any religion that teaches
it.
Christianity is the epitome of perversion.
Amen, brother!
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Men become civilized not in their willingness to believe, bit in
proportion to their readiness to doubt." - H. L. Mencken
.
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
01 Feb 2004 12:50:01 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 00:38:31 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpresremove.com>,
Message ID: <jhachm-80B7A7.00383101022004@news-60.giganews.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;
In article <llrn109ctlitb2t307v85hosdenk919jc5@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 00:00:05 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpresremove.com>,
Message ID: <jhachm-9F0D58.00000530012004@news-60.giganews.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;
In article <mqmdnS5Ucrn-SoTdRVn-gg@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
"Abner Mintz" <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1g8c91h.x5dol01x5yh34N%abnermintz@earthlink.net...
dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net> wrote:
He asked if we should believe things *because*
they are comforting. I merely replied that hell is hardly a comforting
belief.
I have talked with several theists to whom the concept of hell was
apparently quite comforting - it allowed them to glory in the
tortures that would eventually be suffered by those who disagreed
with them. The people who disagreed with them might seem to have
pleasant lives now, but just wait ... and from that they took great
comfort.
Further proof of how Christianity can warp peoples' minds.
For people to find comfort in the idea that those who disagree
with their beliefs will suffer in agony forever is truly disgusting.
Some might even revel in the idea.
From:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/heaven.htm
---
Another question raised by orthodox Christian theology is this: How
could those who go to heaven ever be happy when they knew of the
terrible atrocities being inflicted on the damned in hell? The early
Christian theologian Tertullian apparently had no problem with this. He
said that he actually looked forward to the day when, after joining the
elect in heaven, he would see all those who had opposed Christianity
burning in the flames of hell. He wrote: 'Oh, what shall be the
magnitude of the scene. How I shall laugh! How I shall rejoice! How I
shall triumph!' (Clearly Christian charity was not one his stronger
points!)
That *was* Christian 'Charity.' :\
Imagine his gurgle of horror when he found himself writhing in the
'flames that will not be quenched.'
I suppose that your viewpoint changes when you switch from barbecuer to
barbecuee.
Of course! I find it of great merriment to see the christian's attitude
change when *they personally* are the receipient of their deity's
'largesse.'
If watching people being tortured for all eternity is one of the
'delights' of heaven, I want no part of it or any religion that teaches
it.
Christianity is the epitome of perversion.
Amen, brother!
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
|
|
|
| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
01 Feb 2004 11:34:15 PM |
|
|
In article <8giq10tad2iui4umj6emkmg9vd1ut1tlem@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 00:38:31 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpresremove.com>,
Message ID: <jhachm-80B7A7.00383101022004@news-60.giganews.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;
In article <llrn109ctlitb2t307v85hosdenk919jc5@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 00:00:05 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpresremove.com>,
Message ID: <jhachm-9F0D58.00000530012004@news-60.giganews.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;
In article <mqmdnS5Ucrn-SoTdRVn-gg@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
"Abner Mintz" <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1g8c91h.x5dol01x5yh34N%abnermintz@earthlink.net...
dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net> wrote:
He asked if we should believe things *because*
they are comforting. I merely replied that hell is hardly a
comforting
belief.
I have talked with several theists to whom the concept of hell was
apparently quite comforting - it allowed them to glory in the
tortures that would eventually be suffered by those who disagreed
with them. The people who disagreed with them might seem to have
pleasant lives now, but just wait ... and from that they took great
comfort.
Further proof of how Christianity can warp peoples' minds.
For people to find comfort in the idea that those who disagree
with their beliefs will suffer in agony forever is truly disgusting.
Some might even revel in the idea.
From:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/heaven.htm
---
Another question raised by orthodox Christian theology is this: How
could those who go to heaven ever be happy when they knew of the
terrible atrocities being inflicted on the damned in hell? The early
Christian theologian Tertullian apparently had no problem with this. He
said that he actually looked forward to the day when, after joining the
elect in heaven, he would see all those who had opposed Christianity
burning in the flames of hell. He wrote: 'Oh, what shall be the
magnitude of the scene. How I shall laugh! How I shall rejoice! How I
shall triumph!' (Clearly Christian charity was not one his stronger
points!)
That *was* Christian 'Charity.' :\
Imagine his gurgle of horror when he found himself writhing in the
'flames that will not be quenched.'
I suppose that your viewpoint changes when you switch from barbecuer to
barbecuee.
Of course! I find it of great merriment to see the christian's attitude
change when *they personally* are the receipient of their deity's
'largesse.'
It's funny if you ask them about their chances of going to hell, they
have never even considered that possibility. At least they won't admit
it. It's always the other guy, the 'sinner' who is going to get roasted.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Men become civilized not in their willingness to believe, bit in
proportion to their readiness to doubt." - H. L. Mencken
.
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Does atheism offer any real hope for humanity? |
03 Feb 2004 07:11:35 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 21:34:15 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpresremove.com>,
Message ID: <jhachm-167FB4.21341501022004@news-60.giganews.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;
In article <8giq10tad2iui4umj6emkmg9vd1ut1tlem@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 00:38:31 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpresremove.com>,
Message ID: <jhachm-80B7A7.00383101022004@news-60.giganews.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;
In article <llrn109ctlitb2t307v85hosdenk919jc5@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 00:00:05 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpresremove.com>,
Message ID: <jhachm-9F0D58.00000530012004@news-60.giganews.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;
In article <mqmdnS5Ucrn-SoTdRVn-gg@comcast.com>,
"Michelle Malkin" <hypatiab7@comcast.net> wrote:
"Abner Mintz" <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1g8c91h.x5dol01x5yh34N%abnermintz@earthlink.net...
dgillesp <dgillesp@pemtel.net> wrote:
He asked if we should believe things *because*
they are comforting. I merely replied that hell is hardly a
comforting
belief.
I have talked with several theists to whom the concept of hell was
apparently quite comforting - it allowed them to glory in the
tortures that would eventually be suffered by those who disagreed
with them. The people who disagreed with them might seem to have
pleasant lives now, but just wait ... and from that they took great
comfort.
Further proof of how Christianity can warp peoples' minds.
For people to find comfort in the idea that those who disagree
with their beliefs will suffer in agony forever is truly disgusting.
Some might even revel in the idea.
From:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/heaven.htm
---
Another question raised by orthodox Christian theology is this: How
could those who go to heaven ever be happy when they knew of the
terrible atrocities being inflicted on the damned in hell? The early
Christian theologian Tertullian apparently had no problem with this. He
said that he actually looked forward to the day when, after joining the
elect in heaven, he would see all those who had opposed Christianity
burning in the flames of hell. He wrote: 'Oh, what shall be the
magnitude of the scene. How I shall laugh! How I shall rejoice! How I
shall triumph!' (Clearly Christian charity was not one his stronger
points!)
That *was* Christian 'Charity.' :\
Imagine his gurgle of horror when he found himself writhing in the
'flames that will not be quenched.'
I suppose that your viewpoint changes when you switch from barbecuer to
barbecuee.
Of course! I find it of great merriment to see the christian's attitude
change when *they personally* are the receipient of their deity's
'largesse.'
It's funny if you ask them about their chances of going to hell, they
have never even considered that possibility. At least they won't admit
it. It's always the other guy, the 'sinner' who is going to get roasted.
I think two of my elderly aunts expect to be in Hell after they die. :\
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
.
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