| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Enkidu the Atheist" |
| Date: |
15 Jun 2005 12:05:07 AM |
| Object: |
Does Ethics Require God? |
Does Ethics Require God?
The Christian Post
http://tinyurl.com/cgcbh
InterVarsity Pits Evangelist Against Atheist
A campus event this past semester sponsored by InterVarsity Christian
Fellowship and six other groups, including Comparative Religions Club,
Philosophical Society, and Students for Free Thought, put ethics and
religion front and center.
Tuesday, Jun. 14, 2005 Posted: 6:24:40AM EST
A campus event this past semester sponsored by InterVarsity Christian
Fellowship and six other groups, including Comparative Religions Club,
Philosophical Society, and Students for Free Thought, put ethics and
religion front and center.
Peter Payne, an evangelism and apologetics specialist serving on staff
with the graduate chapter of InterVarsity at the University of Michigan,
and Dan Barker, former minister turned atheist and now co-President of
the Freedom from Religion Foundation, held a lively debate on the
question, "Does Ethics Require God?" in front of 450 students and
community members -- the largest gathering ever held by the University of
Wisconsin Stevens-Point InterVarsity chapter.
Payne maintained that ethics requires God, while Barker believes that it
does not.
"There is the notion of the good," said Payne, but "Ethics has to be more
than that." At minimal, the definition for ethics needs to at least
include "human welfare."
Another constraint is that good is unconditional - "not dependent upon an
individual person or society."
Payne stated that naturalists - those who only believe in the physical
world - "don't have very much" because they would not have any way of
knowing good from wrong: is it based on reason, etc? They would need an
"ideal observer," but from the Christian perspective, "God is the ideal
observer."
Barker, however, stated that "ethical," to him, means the intention of
minimizing harm. He listed evidence for his "naturalist" belief,
including the fact that many live good lives without a belief in God.
Barker also said those who do believe in God are not standing on any
moral high ground and quoted Barna statistics of how born-again
Christians are in fact worse than non-Christians in certain measures such
as the divorce rate. He stated the fact that Christians can't seem to
agree on many ethical issues, such as euthanasia or abortion, and finally
cited Scriptures to say that God is not a loving God.
Campus Staff Member, John Jordens, on staff for 10 years, said the
importance of this type of event for him was that it allowed Christian
students to learn more about their faith - enough to be able to defend
it.
"It helped us to think about some things like how to defend our faith,"
he said. "I realized that our students are coming from a Christian
background without having wrestled with these questions."
"Some people were surprised that there are people who could believe as
strong as Dan [Parker]," said Jordens. But "We need to be ready with an
answer and think about how to defend that."
In addition, the fact that Christians are no different, statistically,
from non-Christians should sadden Christians because they should be
distinct.
Overall, he believes that "The visibility of Christians on campus have
risen from this type of event and would hold it again.
However, he saw the event as a way to facilitate the dialogue.
"I wished that we could've been better prepared to continue the dialogue.
We tried to do some small groups afterwards, but I learned that when we
bring our friends, we can continue to talk about these things."
Concerning how this event might be detrimental to the young Christian
mind, he said that those types of Christians are already looking for an
excuse not to follow the lifestyle, but if they truly took the
opportunity to engage in dialogue, then potentially many of their
questions could be answered.
Students on both sides, called it "lively" and "done well" and indicated
on response cards that they were pleased with the event and wanted to see
it again.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplin and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
So, the Xian fundies want to slap the 10 commandments on the wall. I
guess our school kids have a real problem with committing adultery and
carving idols during school hours.
-- Dr. Monkeyspank
Now playing: Halloween
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: Does Ethics Require God? |
15 Jun 2005 10:22:08 AM |
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On 15 Jun 2005 00:05:07 GMT, Enkidu the Atheist
<Enkidu.the.Atheist@gmail.com> wrote:
Does Ethics Require God?
The Christian Post
http://tinyurl.com/cgcbh
InterVarsity Pits Evangelist Against Atheist
A campus event this past semester sponsored by InterVarsity Christian
Fellowship and six other groups, including Comparative Religions Club,
Philosophical Society, and Students for Free Thought, put ethics and
religion front and center.
snip
Concerning how this event might be detrimental to the young Christian
mind, he said that those types of Christians are already looking for an
excuse not to follow the lifestyle, but if they truly took the
opportunity to engage in dialogue, then potentially many of their
questions could be answered.
People who disagree with him do so because they are "looking for an
excuse not to follow the life style".
Isn't it wonderful how open-minded he is?
snip
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Does Ethics Require God? |
19 Jun 2005 12:02:35 AM |
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On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:22:08 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On 15 Jun 2005 00:05:07 GMT, Enkidu the Atheist
<Enkidu.the.Atheist@gmail.com> wrote:
Does Ethics Require God?
The Christian Post
http://tinyurl.com/cgcbh
InterVarsity Pits Evangelist Against Atheist
A campus event this past semester sponsored by InterVarsity Christian
Fellowship and six other groups, including Comparative Religions Club,
Philosophical Society, and Students for Free Thought, put ethics and
religion front and center.
snip
Concerning how this event might be detrimental to the young Christian
mind, he said that those types of Christians are already looking for an
excuse not to follow the lifestyle, but if they truly took the
opportunity to engage in dialogue, then potentially many of their
questions could be answered.
People who disagree with him do so because they are "looking for an
excuse not to follow the life style".
Isn't it wonderful how open-minded he is?
Ah, yes, the usual bigotry and false witness.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
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| User: "Johnny P" |
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| Title: Re: Does Ethics Require God? |
19 Jun 2005 12:14:09 AM |
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Ok. Ill agree with you there.
But there is such a thing as being a carnal Christian. Its sort of like
a process, where when you believe, your head just doesnt fill up with
visions of loveliness overngiht.
Sometimes, when people , like me, not you, have had bad experiences, and
are looking for something different, or a better lifestyle, then they can
accept the teachings of Jesus Christ. I dont expect my life to change
overnight, and it hasnt. I am better than I was three years ago, I can tell
you that. However, I am far from perfect. I dont think I am trying to be a
bigot, so If I come across that way, I apologize. Or a hypocrite or
anything else, but if sometimes I do screw up, and I am called on it, then
that is where Im supposed to remember things that I have been taught, about
kindness, or forgiveness or anger or whatever. As you can see, Im still
working on my anger issues. But like I say, Im a lot better off than I was
three or four years ago.
t
"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:6gd9b11veps6lilp4ark8onml6aioa0gpr@4ax.com...
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:22:08 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On 15 Jun 2005 00:05:07 GMT, Enkidu the Atheist
<Enkidu.the.Atheist@gmail.com> wrote:
Does Ethics Require God?
The Christian Post
http://tinyurl.com/cgcbh
InterVarsity Pits Evangelist Against Atheist
A campus event this past semester sponsored by InterVarsity Christian
Fellowship and six other groups, including Comparative Religions Club,
Philosophical Society, and Students for Free Thought, put ethics and
religion front and center.
snip
Concerning how this event might be detrimental to the young Christian
mind, he said that those types of Christians are already looking for an
excuse not to follow the lifestyle, but if they truly took the
opportunity to engage in dialogue, then potentially many of their
questions could be answered.
People who disagree with him do so because they are "looking for an
excuse not to follow the life style".
Isn't it wonderful how open-minded he is?
Ah, yes, the usual bigotry and false witness.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: Does Ethics Require God? |
19 Jun 2005 07:14:18 AM |
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On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:14:09 -0400, "Johnny P"
<Smithy9367@adelphia.net> wrote:
"stoney" <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:6gd9b11veps6lilp4ark8onml6aioa0gpr@4ax.com...
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:22:08 +0200, thomas p
<tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote:
On 15 Jun 2005 00:05:07 GMT, Enkidu the Atheist
<Enkidu.the.Atheist@gmail.com> wrote:
Does Ethics Require God?
The Christian Post
http://tinyurl.com/cgcbh
snip
People who disagree with him do so because they are "looking for an
excuse not to follow the life style".
Isn't it wonderful how open-minded he is?
Ah, yes, the usual bigotry and false witness.
Ok. Ill agree with you there.
But there is such a thing as being a carnal Christian. Its sort of like
a process, where when you believe, your head just doesnt fill up with
visions of loveliness overngiht.
Two thousand years and waiting.
snip
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Does Ethics Require God? |
21 Jun 2005 03:45:06 PM |
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On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:14:09 -0400, "Johnny P"
<Smithy9367@adelphia.net> wrote:
Note: Please post under the paragraph(s) you're responding to. It
makes things much easier to follow.
Ok. Ill agree with you there.
I'm extremely surprised. Kudos to you.
But there is such a thing as being a carnal Christian.
You lost me here. Rather than guess, I'll wait for further
explaination.
Its sort of like a process, where when you believe, your head just doesnt fill up with
visions of loveliness overngiht.
Just mind-numbing horror.
Do keep in mind the vast majority of US based atheists were once of
one, or more, sects of Christianity.
Sometimes, when people , like me, not you, have had bad experiences, and
are looking for something different, or a better lifestyle, then they can
accept the teachings of Jesus Christ.
I have not come to bring peace but a sword!
I have come to turn son against father, daughter against mother, and
daughter in law against mother in law.
Those who do not believe are condemned to the fire that will not be
quenched and they will never die. There's more, but this suffices to
get the point across.
The teachings of the JC character, as well as actions, are not
something my daughters were taught. The JC character is guilty of;
Pride, Sloth, Gross Hypocrisy, bigotry, prejudice, ordering theft,
breaking the Sabbath, not honouring his mother, lying, violent
lawbreaking against those obeying the law, lack of compassion, lack of
empathy, lack of love, lack of morality, and more. The character is
also mentally ill. A 'well-wrapped' person doesn't go around cursing
fig trees for not bearing fruit out of season.
I dont expect my life to change overnight, and it hasnt. I am better
than I was three years ago, I can tell you that.
That's great. However, the credit for your hard work goes to you not
some bronze age fantasy figure. Keep in mind that, according to the
Xtian superstition, the JC character put you in the bad situation(s)
and developed your character that way in the first place.
1 Thessalonians 5 (KJV)
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God
in Christ Jesus concerning you.
/end
Now then, the steps you've taken are;
1) Identified there was a problem or problems.
2) Analyzed their makeup and/or basic factors.
3) Developed corrective action plan.
4) Put the plan into action.
5) Monitored/monitoring the situation and going back
to 1).
However, I am far from perfect.
Perfection doesn't exist. Setting yourself an impossible goal is
nothing more than terminal failure.
I dont think I am trying to be a
bigot, so If I come across that way, I apologize.
Or a hypocrite or anything else,
That may be, however, words have meaning and ramifications and
reprecussions.
" those types of Christians are already looking for an excuse not to
follow the lifestyle" is what generated the comments.
but if sometimes I do screw up, and I am called on it, then
that is where Im supposed to remember things that I have been taught, about
kindness, or forgiveness or anger or whatever.
Simple compassion and empathy takes care of that. Sadly, all too
often, Christianity removes those two traits. When imaginary buddy is
in the 'top slot' problems stem from that.
As you can see, Im still working on my anger issues. But like I say,
Im a lot better off than I was three or four years ago.
If I may make a suggestion-check out 'Kaizen.'
And.
You've identified anger issues. Plural.
Put those issues on paper.
Pick one and break it down into its component parts.
Pick one and break that down.
Do the same for each of the other parts and issues.
The point is to identify the items you'd like to change, break the
generating factor(s) into the smallest pieces you can and work on
changing the smallest item in yourself. Much can be done by breaking
things into 'nibble-sized pieces.'
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president
represents, more and more closely, the inner soul
of the people. On some great and glorious day the
plain folks of the land will reach their heart's
desire at last and the White House will be adorned
by a downright moron." --- H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
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