| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"jack_the_mormon" |
| Date: |
15 Nov 2004 05:13:50 PM |
| Object: |
Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
Does it really matter if there is or isn't a God?
Let me explain, my wife is very religious. I consider myself
agnostic, but I attend church with her for several reasons:
1) I genuinely like and find friendly the people who attend our
church.
2) The church community is supportive: they provided us meals when my
wife gave birth, members helped us move when we relocated, etc; and we
do the same for other members.
3) Besides the Jesus gibberish, I agree with 80% of what my pastor
preaches: loving and serving our fellow man, peace, humanitarian aid,
forgiveness, civil liberties, equality of mankind.
4) My children develop friendships within the church community, they
have positive role models in the church community, they are taught a
basic morality that I agree with (see #3).
So in the end - I do not really believe in God - but I still attend
church because it doesn't really matter if there is or isn't a God. I
still benefit from being a member of a church community and for the
benefits of membership I can overlook the 20% I disagree with. I
suspect many people are the same way.
There is goodness and purpose in religion and in church community that
really can't be found elsewhere. Who was it that said - "if you can't
beat 'em, join 'em"? I think he/she was on to something.
.
|
|
| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
15 Nov 2004 11:47:59 PM |
|
|
"jack_the_mormon" <Jack_the_Mormon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4f8f6ffd.0411151513.47026511@posting.google.com...
Does it really matter if there is or isn't a God?
<snip>
There is goodness and purpose in religion
And Mussolini made the trains run on time.
--
rb #2187
.
|
|
|
| User: "jack_the_mormon" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
16 Nov 2004 08:07:45 AM |
|
|
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <oscar@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote in message news:<jwgmd.46710$jo2.21174@twister.socal.rr.com>...
"jack_the_mormon" <Jack_the_Mormon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4f8f6ffd.0411151513.47026511@posting.google.com...
Does it really matter if there is or isn't a God?
<snip>
There is goodness and purpose in religion
And Mussolini made the trains run on time.
So, in your analogy, Mussolini is religion and the trains are
goodness?
If trains running on time (goodness) are of the utmost importance to
you - then you would consider Mussolini (religion) a good thing,
right?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
16 Nov 2004 09:42:59 AM |
|
|
"jack_the_mormon" <Jack_the_Mormon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4f8f6ffd.0411160607.4da55456@posting.google.com...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <oscar@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote in message
news:<jwgmd.46710$jo2.21174@twister.socal.rr.com>...
"jack_the_mormon" <Jack_the_Mormon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4f8f6ffd.0411151513.47026511@posting.google.com...
Does it really matter if there is or isn't a God?
<snip>
There is goodness and purpose in religion
And Mussolini made the trains run on time.
So, in your analogy, Mussolini is religion and the trains are
goodness?
If trains running on time (goodness) are of the utmost importance to
you - then you would consider Mussolini (religion) a good thing,
right?
That is what you were arguing for.
It is certainly not my position.
I'd rather have the trains be 5 minutes late than
have chemical weapons used against Ethiopians.
(Translation for you: I'd rather people arrive at
morality and ethics on their own or through law
than through religion with its inherent message
of bigotry.)
--
rb #2187
.
|
|
|
| User: "jack_the_mormon" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
16 Nov 2004 03:06:01 PM |
|
|
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <oscar@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote in message news:<7epmd.54052$hN1.37042@twister.socal.rr.com>...
"jack_the_mormon" <Jack_the_Mormon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4f8f6ffd.0411160607.4da55456@posting.google.com...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <oscar@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote in message
news:<jwgmd.46710$jo2.21174@twister.socal.rr.com>...
"jack_the_mormon" <Jack_the_Mormon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4f8f6ffd.0411151513.47026511@posting.google.com...
Does it really matter if there is or isn't a God?
<snip>
There is goodness and purpose in religion
And Mussolini made the trains run on time.
So, in your analogy, Mussolini is religion and the trains are
goodness?
If trains running on time (goodness) are of the utmost importance to
you - then you would consider Mussolini (religion) a good thing,
right?
That is what you were arguing for.
It is certainly not my position.
I'd rather have the trains be 5 minutes late than
have chemical weapons used against Ethiopians.
(Translation for you: I'd rather people arrive at
morality and ethics on their own or through law
than through religion with its inherent message
of bigotry.)
I think you may have mis-understood my intentions. I agree, people
are better off when they arrive at morality on their own. But,
really, who doesn't have to work out their own morality? Even
faithful theists work out their own morality throughout their lives.
It's simply part of beeing human.
Ever vote for a candidate when you didn't agree with him/her 100% of
the time?
Ever attend a class, that you learned a lot in, but didn't agree with
the teacher 100% of the time?
Ever have a rewarding friendship, where you didn't get along with your
friend gloriously 100% of the time?
The answer to all these questions is an obvious YES, of course you
have. Because you are able to think for yourself, you are able to
survive in a complex world and function in environments where there is
not total harmony with your persepctive. Otherwise you wouldn't ever
attend a single class, vote for a single candidate or have a single
friend! Same with church; I suspect all over the world their are
hundreds of church goers that don't agree with 100% of their church
teachings - but still find benefit in their church attendance.
I also think you're being a bit over-the-top by stereotyping all
religions as having some inherent tendency towards bigotry. Though
there certainly is a lot of bigotry out there, on lot's of different
fronts, I happen to know a whole congregation of people that don't
care if your black or gay or democrat or handicap, or old or... you
get the picture.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
19 Nov 2004 11:15:15 AM |
|
|
"jack_the_mormon" <Jack_the_Mormon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4f8f6ffd.0411161306.7071bde6@posting.google.com...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <oscar@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote in message
news:<7epmd.54052$hN1.37042@twister.socal.rr.com>...
"jack_the_mormon" <Jack_the_Mormon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4f8f6ffd.0411160607.4da55456@posting.google.com...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <oscar@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote in message
news:<jwgmd.46710$jo2.21174@twister.socal.rr.com>...
"jack_the_mormon" <Jack_the_Mormon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4f8f6ffd.0411151513.47026511@posting.google.com...
Does it really matter if there is or isn't a God?
<snip>
There is goodness and purpose in religion
And Mussolini made the trains run on time.
So, in your analogy, Mussolini is religion and the trains are
goodness?
If trains running on time (goodness) are of the utmost importance to
you - then you would consider Mussolini (religion) a good thing,
right?
That is what you were arguing for.
It is certainly not my position.
I'd rather have the trains be 5 minutes late than
have chemical weapons used against Ethiopians.
(Translation for you: I'd rather people arrive at
morality and ethics on their own or through law
than through religion with its inherent message
of bigotry.)
I think you may have mis-understood my intentions. I agree, people
are better off when they arrive at morality on their own. But,
really, who doesn't have to work out their own morality? Even
faithful theists work out their own morality throughout their lives.
It's simply part of beeing human.
Ever vote for a candidate when you didn't agree with him/her 100% of
the time?
Ever attend a class, that you learned a lot in, but didn't agree with
the teacher 100% of the time?
Ever have a rewarding friendship, where you didn't get along with your
friend gloriously 100% of the time?
The answer to all these questions is an obvious YES, of course you
have. Because you are able to think for yourself, you are able to
survive in a complex world and function in environments where there is
not total harmony with your persepctive. Otherwise you wouldn't ever
attend a single class, vote for a single candidate or have a single
friend! Same with church; I suspect all over the world their are
hundreds of church goers that don't agree with 100% of their church
teachings - but still find benefit in their church attendance.
I also think you're being a bit over-the-top by stereotyping all
religions as having some inherent tendency towards bigotry.
Buhdism might get a passing grade on that.
The Mosaic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) all have
rather virulent bigotry spelled out in their 'holy' books.
But of course every follower makes up their own religion
as they go along.
Really it is people that have an inherent tendency
toward bigotry. They incorporate it in to their religions
and claim divinity gives authority to their
wishes/prejudices.
Though
there certainly is a lot of bigotry out there, on lot's of different
fronts, I happen to know a whole congregation of people that don't
care if your black or gay or democrat or handicap, or old or... you
get the picture.
My, how tolerant.
--
rb #2187
.
|
|
|
| User: "jack_the_mormon" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
20 Nov 2004 12:10:21 PM |
|
|
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <oscar@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote in message news:<DSpnd.55553$hN1.3194@twister.socal.rr.com>...
"jack_the_mormon" <Jack_the_Mormon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4f8f6ffd.0411161306.7071bde6@posting.google.com...
<snbipped for brevity>
I think you may have mis-understood my intentions. I agree, people
are better off when they arrive at morality on their own. But,
really, who doesn't have to work out their own morality? Even
faithful theists work out their own morality throughout their lives.
It's simply part of beeing human.
Ever vote for a candidate when you didn't agree with him/her 100% of
the time?
Ever attend a class, that you learned a lot in, but didn't agree with
the teacher 100% of the time?
Ever have a rewarding friendship, where you didn't get along with your
friend gloriously 100% of the time?
The answer to all these questions is an obvious YES, of course you
have. Because you are able to think for yourself, you are able to
survive in a complex world and function in environments where there is
not total harmony with your persepctive. Otherwise you wouldn't ever
attend a single class, vote for a single candidate or have a single
friend! Same with church; I suspect all over the world their are
hundreds of church goers that don't agree with 100% of their church
teachings - but still find benefit in their church attendance.
I also think you're being a bit over-the-top by stereotyping all
religions as having some inherent tendency towards bigotry.
Buhdism might get a passing grade on that.
The Mosaic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) all have
rather virulent bigotry spelled out in their 'holy' books.
But of course every follower makes up their own religion
as they go along.
Really it is people that have an inherent tendency
toward bigotry. They incorporate it in to their religions
and claim divinity gives authority to their
wishes/prejudices.
I attended the Simon Wiesenthal Center's Museum of Tolerance in Los
Angeles once. In the museum are two doors. One says prejuidiced, the
other non-prejuidiced. You are supposed to enter through the one that
applies to you individually. However, the one that says
non-prejuidiced is a false door. It doesn't open.
The point being that we are all prejuidiced. We all, naturally, tend
to associate with those that are similiar to us and to disassociate,
and even revile, those that believe differently than us. Christians
do it to non-Christians and atheists do it to believers. One side is
neither more tolerant nor more "right" than the other. Don't kid
yourself by thinking that because you see the bigoted nature in humans
(that happen to be Christians) it indicates that religion is
inherently bigoted or that non-religionists are somehow above bigotry.
Neither is the case.
<snipped>
Sincerely,
Jack
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
20 Nov 2004 01:21:20 PM |
|
|
"jack_the_mormon" <Jack_the_Mormon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4f8f6ffd.0411201010.611c483f@posting.google.com...
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <oscar@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote in message
news:<DSpnd.55553$hN1.3194@twister.socal.rr.com>...
"jack_the_mormon" <Jack_the_Mormon@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4f8f6ffd.0411161306.7071bde6@posting.google.com...
<snbipped for brevity>
I think you may have mis-understood my intentions. I agree, people
are better off when they arrive at morality on their own. But,
really, who doesn't have to work out their own morality? Even
faithful theists work out their own morality throughout their lives.
It's simply part of beeing human.
Ever vote for a candidate when you didn't agree with him/her 100% of
the time?
Ever attend a class, that you learned a lot in, but didn't agree with
the teacher 100% of the time?
Ever have a rewarding friendship, where you didn't get along with your
friend gloriously 100% of the time?
The answer to all these questions is an obvious YES, of course you
have. Because you are able to think for yourself, you are able to
survive in a complex world and function in environments where there is
not total harmony with your persepctive. Otherwise you wouldn't ever
attend a single class, vote for a single candidate or have a single
friend! Same with church; I suspect all over the world their are
hundreds of church goers that don't agree with 100% of their church
teachings - but still find benefit in their church attendance.
I also think you're being a bit over-the-top by stereotyping all
religions as having some inherent tendency towards bigotry.
Buhdism might get a passing grade on that.
The Mosaic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) all have
rather virulent bigotry spelled out in their 'holy' books.
But of course every follower makes up their own religion
as they go along.
Really it is people that have an inherent tendency
toward bigotry. They incorporate it in to their religions
and claim divinity gives authority to their
wishes/prejudices.
I attended the Simon Wiesenthal Center's Museum of Tolerance in Los
Angeles once. In the museum are two doors. One says prejuidiced, the
other non-prejuidiced. You are supposed to enter through the one that
applies to you individually. However, the one that says
non-prejuidiced is a false door. It doesn't open.
The point being that we are all prejuidiced.
I would phrase that more like: All people harbor various prejudices
of varying degrees.
We all, naturally, tend
to associate with those that are similiar to us and to disassociate,
and even revile, those that believe differently than us. Christians
do it to non-Christians and atheists do it to believers. One side is
neither more tolerant nor more "right" than the other.
Characterizing a 'side' is itself bigotry.
Don't kid
yourself by thinking that because you see the bigoted nature in humans
(that happen to be Christians) it indicates that religion is
inherently bigoted
In my observation the more vocal or enthusiatic a person
is about their religion the more bigoted they are.
or that non-religionists are somehow above bigotry.
I am not kidding myself that atheists are above bigotry.
Neither is the case.
--
rb #2187
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
20 Nov 2004 05:48:22 PM |
|
|
On 20 Nov 2004 10:10:21 -0800,
(jack_the_mormon) wrote:
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" <oscar@bellsouth.net.pa> wrote in message news:<DSpnd.55553$hN1.3194@twister.socal.rr.com>...
"jack_the_mormon" < > wrote in message
news:4f8f6ffd.0411161306.7071bde6@posting.google.com...
<snbipped for brevity>
I think you may have mis-understood my intentions. I agree, people
are better off when they arrive at morality on their own. But,
really, who doesn't have to work out their own morality? Even
faithful theists work out their own morality throughout their lives.
It's simply part of beeing human.
Ever vote for a candidate when you didn't agree with him/her 100% of
the time?
Ever attend a class, that you learned a lot in, but didn't agree with
the teacher 100% of the time?
Ever have a rewarding friendship, where you didn't get along with your
friend gloriously 100% of the time?
The answer to all these questions is an obvious YES, of course you
have. Because you are able to think for yourself, you are able to
survive in a complex world and function in environments where there is
not total harmony with your persepctive. Otherwise you wouldn't ever
attend a single class, vote for a single candidate or have a single
friend! Same with church; I suspect all over the world their are
hundreds of church goers that don't agree with 100% of their church
teachings - but still find benefit in their church attendance.
I also think you're being a bit over-the-top by stereotyping all
religions as having some inherent tendency towards bigotry.
Buhdism might get a passing grade on that.
The Mosaic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) all have
rather virulent bigotry spelled out in their 'holy' books.
But of course every follower makes up their own religion
as they go along.
Really it is people that have an inherent tendency
toward bigotry. They incorporate it in to their religions
and claim divinity gives authority to their
wishes/prejudices.
I attended the Simon Wiesenthal Center's Museum of Tolerance in Los
Angeles once. In the museum are two doors. One says prejuidiced, the
other non-prejuidiced. You are supposed to enter through the one that
applies to you individually. However, the one that says
non-prejuidiced is a false door. It doesn't open.
The point being that we are all prejuidiced. We all, naturally, tend
to associate with those that are similiar to us and to disassociate,
and even revile, those that believe differently than us. Christians
do it to non-Christians and atheists do it to believers. One side is
neither more tolerant nor more "right" than the other. Don't kid
yourself by thinking that because you see the bigoted nature in humans
(that happen to be Christians) it indicates that religion is
inherently bigoted or that non-religionists are somehow above bigotry.
Neither is the case.
No. Christians do it to people of other religions not just atheists.
Because their religion tells them to go out and spread a message that
the rest of us neither want nor need. People _react_ to that, and to
imposition of Christianity.
<snipped>
Sincerely,
Jack
.
|
|
|
| User: "jack_the_mormon" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
23 Nov 2004 12:29:35 PM |
|
|
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<f7kvp01o7v8dmi3njckghkk2v74grhtj25@4ax.com>...
<snipped for brevity>
I attended the Simon Wiesenthal Center's Museum of Tolerance in Los
Angeles once. In the museum are two doors. One says prejuidiced, the
other non-prejuidiced. You are supposed to enter through the one that
applies to you individually. However, the one that says
non-prejuidiced is a false door. It doesn't open.
The point being that we are all prejuidiced. We all, naturally, tend
to associate with those that are similiar to us and to disassociate,
and even revile, those that believe differently than us. Christians
do it to non-Christians and atheists do it to believers. One side is
neither more tolerant nor more "right" than the other. Don't kid
yourself by thinking that because you see the bigoted nature in humans
(that happen to be Christians) it indicates that religion is
inherently bigoted or that non-religionists are somehow above bigotry.
Neither is the case.
No. Christians do it to people of other religions not just atheists.
Because their religion tells them to go out and spread a message that
the rest of us neither want nor need. People _react_ to that, and to
imposition of Christianity.
A persons reaction is a choice. Artest reacted to having a beer
thrown on him - was he right to do so?
When non-Christians _react_ to be proselytized in a bigoted fashion,
it is their choice to be bigoted. Being bigoted is not forced upon
them by believers.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
23 Nov 2004 12:41:55 PM |
|
|
On 23 Nov 2004 10:29:35 -0800,
(jack_the_mormon) wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<f7kvp01o7v8dmi3njckghkk2v74grhtj25@4ax.com>...
<snipped for brevity>
I attended the Simon Wiesenthal Center's Museum of Tolerance in Los
Angeles once. In the museum are two doors. One says prejuidiced, the
other non-prejuidiced. You are supposed to enter through the one that
applies to you individually. However, the one that says
non-prejuidiced is a false door. It doesn't open.
The point being that we are all prejuidiced. We all, naturally, tend
to associate with those that are similiar to us and to disassociate,
and even revile, those that believe differently than us. Christians
do it to non-Christians and atheists do it to believers. One side is
neither more tolerant nor more "right" than the other. Don't kid
yourself by thinking that because you see the bigoted nature in humans
(that happen to be Christians) it indicates that religion is
inherently bigoted or that non-religionists are somehow above bigotry.
Neither is the case.
No. Christians do it to people of other religions not just atheists.
Because their religion tells them to go out and spread a message that
the rest of us neither want nor need. People _react_ to that, and to
imposition of Christianity.
A persons reaction is a choice. Artest reacted to having a beer
thrown on him - was he right to do so?
When non-Christians _react_ to be proselytized in a bigoted fashion,
it is their choice to be bigoted. Being bigoted is not forced upon
them by believers.
*****. We're just getting on with our own lives. We couldn't care
what believers believe - until they force it where it is neitherw
anted nor needed.
.
|
|
|
| User: "jack_the_mormon" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
23 Nov 2004 05:52:14 PM |
|
|
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<u117q0p8volrmo665g02cn1otc62k5f051@4ax.com>...
<snipped for brevity>
A persons reaction is a choice. Artest reacted to having a beer
thrown on him - was he right to do so?
When non-Christians _react_ to be proselytized in a bigoted fashion,
it is their choice to be bigoted. Being bigoted is not forced upon
them by believers.
*****. We're just getting on with our own lives. We couldn't care
what believers believe - until they force it where it is neitherw
anted nor needed.
I think we are saying the same thing. Atheists make their own
choices. Theists make there own choices. Neither side "forces" the
other side to be bigoted or to _react_ in a particular way. Each
individual is responsible for their own behavior and response.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family,
Jack
.
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
23 Nov 2004 05:54:21 PM |
|
|
On 23 Nov 2004 15:52:14 -0800,
(jack_the_mormon) wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<u117q0p8volrmo665g02cn1otc62k5f051@4ax.com>...
<snipped for brevity>
A persons reaction is a choice. Artest reacted to having a beer
thrown on him - was he right to do so?
When non-Christians _react_ to be proselytized in a bigoted fashion,
it is their choice to be bigoted. Being bigoted is not forced upon
them by believers.
*****. We're just getting on with our own lives. We couldn't care
what believers believe - until they force it where it is neitherw
anted nor needed.
I think we are saying the same thing. Atheists make their own
choices. Theists make there own choices. Neither side "forces" the
other side to be bigoted or to _react_ in a particular way. Each
individual is responsible for their own behavior and response.
The problem is they don't react in a bigoted fashion.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family,
Jack
.
|
|
|
| User: "jack_the_mormon" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
24 Nov 2004 12:13:47 PM |
|
|
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<rcj7q0tnf838hscfkvva9s85ij661j0kp3@4ax.com>...
On 23 Nov 2004 15:52:14 -0800,
(jack_the_mormon) wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<u117q0p8volrmo665g02cn1otc62k5f051@4ax.com>...
<snipped for brevity>
A persons reaction is a choice. Artest reacted to having a beer
thrown on him - was he right to do so?
When non-Christians _react_ to be proselytized in a bigoted fashion,
it is their choice to be bigoted. Being bigoted is not forced upon
them by believers.
*****. We're just getting on with our own lives. We couldn't care
what believers believe - until they force it where it is neitherw
anted nor needed.
I think we are saying the same thing. Atheists make their own
choices. Theists make there own choices. Neither side "forces" the
other side to be bigoted or to _react_ in a particular way. Each
individual is responsible for their own behavior and response.
The problem is they don't react in a bigoted fashion.
Who doesn't? Both sides have their bigots.
Neither side is free from bigotry nor is bigotry inherent in either
belief system. Bigotry exists independent of the philosophy.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family,
Jack
.
|
|
|
| User: "J Forbes" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
25 Nov 2004 09:45:11 AM |
|
|
jack_the_mormon wrote:
Neither side is free from bigotry nor is bigotry inherent in either
belief system. Bigotry exists independent of the philosophy.
It's just that religion is an effective tool for codfying
bigotry, and keeping it firmly entrenched.
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
25 Nov 2004 11:15:40 AM |
|
|
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:b6npd.172$u81.116@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
jack_the_mormon wrote:
Neither side is free from bigotry nor is bigotry inherent in either
belief system. Bigotry exists independent of the philosophy.
It's just that religion is an effective tool for codfying bigotry, and
keeping it firmly entrenched.
So is hatred for religion and the religious.
.
|
|
|
| User: "J Forbes" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
26 Nov 2004 07:55:40 AM |
|
|
DianaC wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:b6npd.172$u81.116@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
jack_the_mormon wrote:
Neither side is free from bigotry nor is bigotry inherent in either
belief system. Bigotry exists independent of the philosophy.
It's just that religion is an effective tool for codfying bigotry, and
keeping it firmly entrenched.
So is hatred for religion and the religious.
It's hard to say...most examples of hatred for religion
involve a different religion. But that's to be expected,
since most people are religious.
Still, the "us and them" viewpoint seems to be pretty much
universal among humans. And politics is all about where one
draws the line.
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
26 Nov 2004 09:35:56 AM |
|
|
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:wBGpd.4217$NU3.3111@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
DianaC wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:b6npd.172$u81.116@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
jack_the_mormon wrote:
Neither side is free from bigotry nor is bigotry inherent in either
belief system. Bigotry exists independent of the philosophy.
It's just that religion is an effective tool for codfying bigotry, and
keeping it firmly entrenched.
So is hatred for religion and the religious.
It's hard to say...most examples of hatred for religion involve a
different religion. But that's to be expected, since most people are
religious.
Still, the "us and them" viewpoint seems to be pretty much universal among
humans. And politics is all about where one draws the line.
Dang. Can't argue when the man is right.
.
|
|
|
| User: "J Forbes" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
26 Nov 2004 10:53:18 AM |
|
|
DianaC wrote:
Dang. Can't argue when the man is right.
Actually, you can, but it's hard when you happen to be right
too!
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "X" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
25 Nov 2004 12:35:04 PM |
|
|
DianaC wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:b6npd.172$u81.116@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
jack_the_mormon wrote:
Neither side is free from bigotry nor is bigotry inherent in either
belief system. Bigotry exists independent of the philosophy.
It's just that religion is an effective tool for codfying bigotry, and
keeping it firmly entrenched.
So is hatred for religion and the religious.
Straw man. Atheism is not "hatred for religion and the religious" as you
would paint it, "Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the
existence of gods." -- http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
25 Nov 2004 02:05:52 PM |
|
|
"X" <X@nospam.com> wrote in message news:sBppd.564824$mD.512004@attbi_s02...
DianaC wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:b6npd.172$u81.116@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
jack_the_mormon wrote:
Neither side is free from bigotry nor is bigotry inherent in either
belief system. Bigotry exists independent of the philosophy.
It's just that religion is an effective tool for codfying bigotry, and
keeping it firmly entrenched.
So is hatred for religion and the religious.
Straw man. Atheism is not "hatred for religion and the religious" as you
would paint it, "Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the
existence of gods." -- http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html
I didn't say it was, you unmitigated troll. Atheists come in all flavors,
just like theists. While it is true that YOU might have a habit of painting
all theists with the flaws of a few, I don't return the favor. All atheism
does is, through it's absence of theistic beliefs, open the door to other,
non-theistic beliefs. Most of those are workable, ethical and reasonable.
Some, however, are not. Just as some theistic beliefs are not.
Or are you one of those true scott twits who think that no true atheist
hates the religious? (snort) Got news: a person who hates religion and the
religious may do so for several reasons, and 'atheism' in and of itself, is
not one of them. The belief systems under its banner may include this or
they may not, just as the belief systems under the banner of theism may or
may not include all sorts of things. But you don't get to decide that an
atheist has no flaws because atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods any
more than a theist can decide that a theist is perfect because he believes
in a deity.
.
|
|
|
| User: "X" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
26 Nov 2004 03:00:27 AM |
|
|
DianaC wrote:
"X" <X@nospam.com> wrote in message news:sBppd.564824$mD.512004@attbi_s02...
DianaC wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:b6npd.172$u81.116@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
jack_the_mormon wrote:
Neither side is free from bigotry nor is bigotry inherent in either
belief system. Bigotry exists independent of the philosophy.
It's just that religion is an effective tool for codfying bigotry, and
keeping it firmly entrenched.
So is hatred for religion and the religious.
Straw man. Atheism is not "hatred for religion and the religious" as you
would paint it, "Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the
existence of gods." -- http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html
I didn't say it was, you unmitigated troll.
Argument _ad dhominem_ won't help you, D. You might as well swear off
that right now. It just makes you look bad, not the one you are trying
to denigrate.
Atheists come in all flavors,
just like theists. While it is true that YOU might have a habit of painting
all theists with the flaws of a few, I don't return the favor. All atheism
does is, through it's absence of theistic beliefs, open the door to other,
non-theistic beliefs. Most of those are workable, ethical and reasonable.
Some, however, are not. Just as some theistic beliefs are not.
Or are you one of those true scott twits who think that no true atheist
hates the religious? (snort)
Snort all you want, that doesn't alter the fact that atheism is not
"hatred for religion and the religious" as you would paint it, "Atheism
is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of gods." --
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html
Got news: a person who hates religion and the
religious may do so for several reasons, and 'atheism' in and of itself, is
not one of them.
That's not news to me. Why is it that religionists always say that
atheists hate religion and the religious, and usually a dozen times a
day here in usenet that atheists hate God? Isn't it just to stengthen
the idea that atheists are the enemy, making it easier to fleece the
sheep in church?
The belief systems under its banner may include this or
they may not, just as the belief systems under the banner of theism may or
may not include all sorts of things. ...
You still don't get it, D.
Atheism has no 'banner', there is no Evil Atheist Conspiracy, and
atheism is not a belief system, it is just an absence of your particular
belief system.
"Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the
existence of gods." -- http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html
.
|
|
|
| User: "Virgil" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
26 Nov 2004 01:55:50 PM |
|
|
In article <LgCpd.147666$HA.11994@attbi_s01>, X <X@nospam.com> wrote:
DianaC wrote:
"X" <X@nospam.com> wrote in message news:sBppd.564824$mD.512004@attbi_s02...
DianaC wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:b6npd.172$u81.116@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
jack_the_mormon wrote:
Neither side is free from bigotry nor is bigotry inherent in either
belief system. Bigotry exists independent of the philosophy.
It's just that religion is an effective tool for codfying bigotry, and
keeping it firmly entrenched.
So is hatred for religion and the religious.
Straw man. Atheism is not "hatred for religion and the religious" as you
would paint it, "Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the
existence of gods." -- http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html
I didn't say it was, you unmitigated troll.
Argument _ad dhominem_ won't help you, D. You might as well swear off
that right now. It just makes you look bad, not the one you are trying
to denigrate.
The denigration is on the other side. Septic X. Troll, the Craven Capon,
tries to imply that he does not denigrate those he denigrates by
repeating the mantra of "Atheism is characterized by an absence of
belief in the existence of gods", even though his own belief, often
expressed here under a variety of spuedomyns, is that he knows that
there are no gods.
Atheists come in all flavors,
just like theists. While it is true that YOU might have a habit of painting
all theists with the flaws of a few, I don't return the favor. All atheism
does is, through it's absence of theistic beliefs, open the door to other,
non-theistic beliefs. Most of those are workable, ethical and reasonable.
Some, however, are not. Just as some theistic beliefs are not.
Or are you one of those true scott twits who think that no true atheist
hates the religious? (snort)
Septic X. Troll, the Craven Capon, tries to imply that he is merely
atheist, in its weakest sense, whereas his past postings prove him
atheist in the strangest anti-theist sense.
.
|
|
|
| User: "X" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
26 Nov 2004 03:26:00 PM |
|
|
Virgil wrote:
In article <LgCpd.147666$HA.11994@attbi_s01>, X <X@nospam.com> wrote:
DianaC wrote:
"X" <X@nospam.com> wrote in message news:sBppd.564824$mD.512004@attbi_s02...
DianaC wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:b6npd.172$u81.116@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
jack_the_mormon wrote:
Neither side is free from bigotry nor is bigotry inherent in either
belief system. Bigotry exists independent of the philosophy.
It's just that religion is an effective tool for codfying bigotry, and
keeping it firmly entrenched.
So is hatred for religion and the religious.
Straw man. Atheism is not "hatred for religion and the religious" as you
would paint it, "Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the
existence of gods." -- http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html
I didn't say it was, you unmitigated troll.
Argument _ad dhominem_ won't help you, D. You might as well swear off
that right now. It just makes you look bad, not the one you are trying
to denigrate.
The denigration is on the other side. Septic X. Troll, the Craven Capon,
tries to imply that he does not denigrate those he denigrates by
repeating the mantra of "Atheism is characterized by an absence of
belief in the existence of gods", even though his own belief, often
expressed here under a variety of spuedomyns, is that he knows that
there are no gods.
That is a lie, and you know it.
How many times do I have to tell you I have an irrational religious
belief there might be a magic invisible Aphrodite, Goddess of Love,
because I think I feel her lifting my penis regularly? 8^)
And anyway, even people who claim to know there are no gods also have an
absence of your irrational religious belief there might be a magic
invisible First Cause (Creator) anyway, even after you have been shown
several times why the very idea of such a thing is summarily rejected as
logical fallacy (special pleading) and a waste of time:
The theist idea of GodŽ, the hypothetical creator, the hypothetical
first cause, has an inherent fatal problem (a special pleading for GodŽ)
so it is summarily rejected as logical fallacy and a waste of time, as
Bertrand Russell points out:
"I need not waste any more time upon the argument about the First
Cause." -- Russell
"Perhaps the simplest and easiest to understand is the argument of the
First Cause. (It is maintained that everything we see in this world has
a cause, and as you go back in the chain of causes further and further
you must come to a First Cause, and to that First Cause you give the
name of God.) That argument, I suppose, does not carry very much weight
nowadays, because, in the first place, cause is not quite what it used
to be. The philosophers and the men of science have got going on cause,
and it has not anything like the vitality it used to have; but, apart
from that, you can see that the argument that there must be a First
Cause is one that cannot have any validity. I may say that when I was a
young man and was debating these questions very seriously in my mind, I
for a long time accepted the argument of the First Cause, until one day,
at the age of eighteen, I read John Stuart Mill's Autobiography, and I
there found this sentence: "My father taught me that the question 'Who
made me?' cannot be answered, since it immediately suggests the further
question `Who made god?'" That very simple sentence showed me, as I
still think, the fallacy in the argument of the First Cause. If
everything must have a cause, then God must have a cause. If there can
be anything without a cause, it may just as well be the world as God, so
that there cannot be any validity in that argument. It is exactly of the
same nature as the Hindu's view, that the world rested upon an elephant
and the elephant rested upon a tortoise; and when they said, "How about
the tortoise?" the Indian said, "Suppose we change the subject." The
argument is really no better than that. There is no reason why the world
could not have come into being without a cause; nor, on the other hand,
is there any reason why it should not have always existed. There is no
reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that
things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our
imagination. Therefore, perhaps, I need not waste any more time upon the
argument about the First Cause." -- Russell "Why I Am Not a Christian"
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/russell_wnc.html
It's a very simple problem for anybody like you who still believes there
might be one anyway. All they have to do is come up with an argument for
GodŽ, the hypothetical First Cause/creator of the universe, that does
not run into this fatal problem inherent in the very idea of it, which
Russell points out.
<cue the chirping crickets>
.
|
|
|
| User: "Virgil" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
26 Nov 2004 05:53:00 PM |
|
|
In article <HbNpd.149297$HA.121019@attbi_s01>, X <X@nospam.com> wrote:
Virgil wrote:
In article <LgCpd.147666$HA.11994@attbi_s01>, X <X@nospam.com> wrote:
DianaC wrote:
"X" <X@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:sBppd.564824$mD.512004@attbi_s02...
DianaC wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:b6npd.172$u81.116@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
jack_the_mormon wrote:
Neither side is free from bigotry nor is bigotry inherent in either
belief system. Bigotry exists independent of the philosophy.
It's just that religion is an effective tool for codfying bigotry, and
keeping it firmly entrenched.
So is hatred for religion and the religious.
Straw man. Atheism is not "hatred for religion and the religious" as you
would paint it, "Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the
existence of gods." -- http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html
I didn't say it was, you unmitigated troll.
Argument _ad dhominem_ won't help you, D. You might as well swear off
that right now. It just makes you look bad, not the one you are trying
to denigrate.
The denigration is on the other side. Septic X. Troll, the Craven Capon,
tries to imply that he does not denigrate those he denigrates by
repeating the mantra of "Atheism is characterized by an absence of
belief in the existence of gods", even though his own belief, often
expressed here under a variety of spuedomyns, is that he knows that
there are no gods.
That is a lie, and you know it.
How many times do I have to tell you I have an irrational religious
belief there might be a magic invisible Aphrodite, Goddess of Love,
because I think I feel her lifting my penis regularly? 8^)
That is just Septic X. Troll, the Craven Capon's hand doing the dirty,
and hardly either magical nor invisible. And if that is the only thing
Septic X. Troll, the Craven Capon, can conjure up to pass off as a
spirit, it means less thatn he usually doews,
And anyway, even people who claim to know there are no gods also have an
absence of your irrational religious belief there might be a magic
invisible First Cause (Creator) anyway
Now how is it that a person who screeches so loudly about other people
lyimg is so prone to lying himself.
It is Septic X. Troll, the Craven Capon, who is being irrational to
insist without proof that there are no gods. Agnostics like me do not.
It is Septic X. Troll, the Craven Capon, who is being religious in
claiming to know anything about gods. Agnostics like me do not.
It is Septic X. Troll, the Craven Capon, who claims that gods must be
magic and/ or invisible. Agnostics like me do not.
It is It is Septic X. Troll, the Craven Capon, who relates the first
cause argument to gods. Agnostics like me do not.
It is It is Septic X. Troll, the Craven Capon, who falsely appeals to
the authority of Bertrand Russell to bolster a false argument which
Russell specifically rejects:
In 'A Plea For Tolerance In The Face Of New Dogmas' by Bertrand Russell
(1947), he says:
As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience
I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because
I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one
prove that there is not a God.'
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "jack_the_mormon" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
26 Nov 2004 02:08:01 AM |
|
|
X <X@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<sBppd.564824$mD.512004@attbi_s02>...
DianaC wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:b6npd.172$u81.116@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
jack_the_mormon wrote:
Neither side is free from bigotry nor is bigotry inherent in either
belief system. Bigotry exists independent of the philosophy.
It's just that religion is an effective tool for codfying bigotry, and
keeping it firmly entrenched.
So is hatred for religion and the religious.
Straw man. Atheism is not "hatred for religion and the religious" as you
would paint it, "Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the
existence of gods." -- http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html
I don't think Diana is saying that atheism is "hatred for religion".
I think she is saying that hatred against religion is as bigoted as
hatred of the non-religious.
.
|
|
|
| User: "J Forbes" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
26 Nov 2004 07:58:00 AM |
|
|
jack_the_mormon wrote:
I don't think Diana is saying that atheism is "hatred for religion".
I think she is saying that hatred against religion is as bigoted as
hatred of the non-religious.
Being open minded anywhere in the vicinity of X won't get
you far.
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
.
|
|
|
| User: "DianaC" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
26 Nov 2004 09:35:03 AM |
|
|
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:IDGpd.4219$NU3.2950@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
jack_the_mormon wrote:
I don't think Diana is saying that atheism is "hatred for religion". I
think she is saying that hatred against religion is as bigoted as
hatred of the non-religious.
Being open minded anywhere in the vicinity of X won't get you far.
Noticed that. How many times do I have to plonk the man?
.
|
|
|
| User: "X" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
26 Nov 2004 03:15:54 PM |
|
|
DianaC wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:IDGpd.4219$NU3.2950@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
jack_the_mormon wrote:
I don't think Diana is saying that atheism is "hatred for religion". I
think she is saying that hatred against religion is as bigoted as
hatred of the non-religious.
Being open minded anywhere in the vicinity of X won't get you far.
Noticed that. How many times do I have to plonk the man?
How many times do you have to be reminded that argument _ad hominem_
like that is simply logical fallacy on your part?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Virgil" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
26 Nov 2004 05:41:54 PM |
|
|
In article <e2Npd.156151$R05.116567@attbi_s53>, X <X@nospam.com> wrote:
DianaC wrote:
"J Forbes" <jforbspam@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:IDGpd.4219$NU3.2950@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
jack_the_mormon wrote:
I don't think Diana is saying that atheism is "hatred for religion". I
think she is saying that hatred against religion is as bigoted as
hatred of the non-religious.
Being open minded anywhere in the vicinity of X won't get you far.
Noticed that. How many times do I have to plonk the man?
How many times do you have to be reminded that argument _ad hominem_
like that is simply logical fallacy on your part?
Plonking is hardly an argument ad hominem.
It seems that everything that Septic X. Troll, the Craven Capon, doesn't
like he declares to be either an argumentum ad ignorantiam of an
argumentum ad hominem, all the while spewing both fallacies as fast as
he can, himself.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Teresita" |
|
| Title: Re: Does it matter if there is (or isn't) a God? |
26 Nov 2004 06:59:52 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 15:45:11 GMT, J Forbes <jforbspam@fastmail.fm>
wrote:
jack_the_mormon wrote:
Neither side is free from bigotry nor is bigotry inherent in either
belief system. Bigotry exists independent of the philosophy.
It's just that religion is an effective tool for codfying
bigotry, and keeping it firmly entrenched.
Atheism is an effective tool for codifying bigotry against people of
faith.
--
Teresita aka Ruby Redinger
http://web.newsguy.com/rubyred
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
