| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"mutatisutandis" |
| Date: |
05 Dec 2004 02:04:00 AM |
| Object: |
Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
A little less than a month ago I went to see a film called "what the
#$!@*% do we know!?". To put it bluntly, I thought it was garbage. I
expected them to cover a wide spectrum of philosophical and scientific
theories about human existence, reality, the universe, etc.
They started off introducing the basics of quantum physics/mechanics
with different scholars - all with the same point of view - commenting
and making clarifications with various hypothetical situations. I put
aside some of the cheesy music and acting and kept an open mind, but I
began feeling discouraged as they suddenly started twisting in all
this new-age bs, and by the end of the movie they were preaching this
so called "scientific" theory of god - sort of like a really queer
pantheistic view mixed with a little fung shui and Hollywood yoga.
Anyways, does quantum physics even suggest the supernatural? I mean
they got into all this ***** about positive thinking and water
molecules responding to "vibes". I don't know maybe I'm wrong, being
that I know squat about quantum physics (as everyone else was telling
me - all theists)and maybe they were presenting an accurate position.
I was just expecting to see something where they don't have to tie in
spirituality or religion as a legit subject within science. I wouldn't
mind if they addressed god and the supernatural just as long as they
gave equal say towards a non-theistic view/s, letting the viewer
decide for themself. I just think both arguments can't be proved
through science and are a highly subjective topic that only serves a
place within metaphysics.
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| User: "Hypatia Kosh" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
05 Dec 2004 01:28:09 PM |
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(mutatisutandis) wrote in message news:<b4c02ecc.0412050004.153899bf@posting.google.com>...
A little less than a month ago I went to see a film called "what the
#$!@*% do we know!?". To put it bluntly, I thought it was garbage. I
expected them to cover a wide spectrum of philosophical and scientific
theories about human existence, reality, the universe, etc.
They started off introducing the basics of quantum physics/mechanics
with different scholars - all with the same point of view - commenting
and making clarifications with various hypothetical situations. I put
aside some of the cheesy music and acting and kept an open mind, but I
began feeling discouraged as they suddenly started twisting in all
this new-age bs, and by the end of the movie they were preaching this
so called "scientific" theory of god - sort of like a really queer
pantheistic view mixed with a little fung shui and Hollywood yoga.
Anyways, does quantum physics even suggest the supernatural?
No.
I mean
they got into all this ***** about positive thinking and water
molecules responding to "vibes".
EM radiation at 2.4 GigaHertz, yes. All molecules have such a
characteristic frequency--that's how spectroscopy works. Also
microwave ovens.
I don't know maybe I'm wrong, being
that I know squat about quantum physics (as everyone else was telling
me - all theists)and maybe they were presenting an accurate position.
You might be better off looking at the physcists who do understand
this stuff (as well as anyone can understand it). The atheism of the
professional physics community is only rivaled by that of psychology
professors.
A number of 20th century physicists have made famous comments about
"God." In Physics lingo, "God" and "Nature" are poetic conceits for
the subject of the physicist's research, that is, the natural,
material world and how it works.
I was just expecting to see something where they don't have to tie in
spirituality or religion as a legit subject within science.
Spirituality and religion do come under the scrutiny of science, in an
anthropological sense. As fields in their own right they have nothing
to do with the natural sciences whatsoever.
I wouldn't
mind if they addressed god and the supernatural just as long as they
gave equal say towards a non-theistic view/s, letting the viewer
decide for themself.
They couldn't do that because their theistic views wouldn't stand a
chance.
I just think both arguments can't be proved
through science
Well, no. But you have to wonder what's the use of worshipping
something that we can't measure or detect or find any evidence for.
"God" has no predictive power as a hypothesis. "God" does not solve
any puzzle about the natural world. "God" is useless to science, and
rather useless to life as well.
and are a highly subjective topic that only serves a
place within metaphysics.
Metaphysics is mostly a waste of time also. I love how philosophy
texts carefully cover every philosopher EXCEPT Hume. Hume is the only
philosopher physicists look to, the only one whose description of how
we learn about the world actually made sense from the modern
physicist's point of view. Instead, generations of students learn the
useless, pretentious ravings of Kant, plus a little Nietzsche, but
only enough to conclude that he's nuts. (Nietzsche knew what a fool
Kant was, and spent a good deal of energy attempting to debunk him.)
Pathetic.
-Hy
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
05 Dec 2004 11:18:54 AM |
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In alt.atheism on 5 Dec 2004 00:04:00 -0800,
(mutatisutandis) let us all know that:
A little less than a month ago I went to see a film called "what the
#$!@*% do we know!?". To put it bluntly, I thought it was garbage. I
expected them to cover a wide spectrum of philosophical and scientific
theories about human existence, reality, the universe, etc.
Which, of course, they didn't. It's just junk they put forth.
They started off introducing the basics of quantum physics/mechanics
with different scholars - all with the same point of view - commenting
and making clarifications with various hypothetical situations. I put
aside some of the cheesy music and acting and kept an open mind, but I
began feeling discouraged as they suddenly started twisting in all
this new-age bs, and by the end of the movie they were preaching this
so called "scientific" theory of god - sort of like a really queer
pantheistic view mixed with a little fung shui and Hollywood yoga.
Anyways, does quantum physics even suggest the supernatural?
Nope. QM deals with the real world, not some extrauniversal
concept.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
08 Dec 2004 12:06:59 AM |
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In article <b4c02ecc.0412050004.153899bf@posting.google.com>,
(mutatisutandis) wrote:
Anyways, does quantum physics even suggest the supernatural?
Nope.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Which raises the question: Can a people that believes more fervently
in theVirgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened
nation?-Garry Wills, New York Times 11/04/04
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| User: "Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
08 Dec 2004 01:59:36 PM |
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On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 22:06:59 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:
In article <b4c02ecc.0412050004.153899bf@posting.google.com>,
mutatisutandis@yahoo.com (mutatisutandis) wrote:
Anyways, does quantum physics even suggest the supernatural?
Nope.
However, anyone persuaded to the contrary is free to conduct the Schrödinger's Cat
experiment, in the role of the cat.
--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; Billions Served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
For e-mail, hold that tiger!
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
09 Dec 2004 12:24:12 AM |
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In article <n4ner0tgacad71hljeb27nklvop822l9d1@4ax.com>,
Apostate <Apostate.invalid@yeehaw.org> wrote:
On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 22:06:59 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:
In article <b4c02ecc.0412050004.153899bf@posting.google.com>,
mutatisutandis@yahoo.com (mutatisutandis) wrote:
Anyways, does quantum physics even suggest the supernatural?
Nope.
However, anyone persuaded to the contrary is free to conduct the
Schrödinger's Cat
experiment, in the role of the cat.
LOL! I like that!
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Which raises the question: Can a people that believes more fervently
in theVirgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened
nation?-Garry Wills, New York Times 11/04/04
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
08 Dec 2004 06:59:41 PM |
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In our last episode <b4c02ecc.0412050004.153899bf@posting.google.com>,
mutatisutandis lept out of the bushes shouting:
Anyways, does quantum physics even suggest the supernatural?
Here's the deal.
The nuagers latched onto something that a couple of decades ago (they
never keep up) was much talked about. The so-called "observer effect."
There are some deeply *weird things in QP that appear to imply that
reality isn't "real" until it's observed. It's strange stuff. But really
hasn't a damn thing to do with whether your house is real when you're not
looking. These effects are only seen at the subatomic level. And what's
"really" going on is still a matter of debate.
A good layman's level book is:
"In Search of Schrodinger's Cat: Quantum Physics And Reality" by John
Gribbin
On of my favorite science writers. He has a sequel ("Schrodinger Kittens"
of course <g>) that discusses one of my favorite explanations for the
weirdness (it's sometimes called the "transactional interpretation" and
would imply a totally deterministic universe in which "past," "present,"
and "future" interact... it's apparently not well received by the experts
though... drat <g>).
The nuage MISinterpretation of QP is *years behind the times. Whatever
weirdness is going on at the subatomic level, it doesn't appear to have
*any effect at the macro level where we live. The "real" world emerges out
of all that strangeness down there. And you can't "observe" an alternate
reality into being. It just doesn't happen...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
07 Dec 2004 09:22:07 PM |
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In our last episode <b4c02ecc.0412050004.153899bf@posting.google.com>,
mutatisutandis lept out of the bushes shouting:
Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power?
No.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
08 Dec 2004 06:19:27 PM |
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Mark K. ***** wrote:
In our last episode
<b4c02ecc.0412050004.153899bf@posting.google.com>,
mutatisutandis lept out of the bushes shouting:
Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power?
No.
It does to people more open-minded than you are, Baggins.
=====
RC
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
08 Dec 2004 06:46:52 PM |
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In our last episode <1102551567.519760.5280@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
rcman777 lept out of the bushes shouting:
Mark K. ***** wrote:
In our last episode
<b4c02ecc.0412050004.153899bf@posting.google.com>,
mutatisutandis lept out of the bushes shouting:
Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power?
No.
It does to people more open-minded than you are, Baggins.
So "open minded" their brains fell out maybe...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
09 Dec 2004 06:44:52 AM |
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Mark K. Dilbo wrote:
In our last episode
<1102551567.519760.5280@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
rcman777 lept out of the bushes shouting:
Mark K. ***** wrote:
In our last episode
<b4c02ecc.0412050004.153899bf@posting.google.com>,
mutatisutandis lept out of the bushes shouting:
Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power?
No.
It does to people more open-minded than you are, Baggins.
So "open minded" their brains fell out maybe...
Oh, so you HAVE read your latest medical report!
Interesting.
=====
RC
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| User: "Liz" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
09 Dec 2004 06:45:56 AM |
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On 9 Dec 2004 04:44:52 -0800, in news message
<1102596292.062918.81000@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Mark K. Dilbo wrote:
In our last episode
<1102551567.519760.5280@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
rcman777 lept out of the bushes shouting:
Mark K. ***** wrote:
In our last episode
<b4c02ecc.0412050004.153899bf@posting.google.com>,
mutatisutandis lept out of the bushes shouting:
Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power?
No.
It does to people more open-minded than you are, Baggins.
So "open minded" their brains fell out maybe...
Oh, so you HAVE read your latest medical report!
Interesting.
Yes, and your prognosis is not good.
Liz #658 BAAWA
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not
enough to make us love one another, - Johnathan Swift
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
09 Dec 2004 11:56:47 AM |
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Liz wrote:
On 9 Dec 2004 04:44:52 -0800, in news message
<1102596292.062918.81000@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Mark K. Dilbo wrote:
In our last episode
<1102551567.519760.5280@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
rcman777 lept out of the bushes shouting:
Mark K. ***** wrote:
In our last episode
<b4c02ecc.0412050004.153899bf@posting.google.com>,
mutatisutandis lept out of the bushes shouting:
Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power?
No.
It does to people more open-minded than you are, Baggins.
So "open minded" their brains fell out maybe...
Oh, so you HAVE read your latest medical report!
Interesting.
Yes, and your prognosis is not good.
Not only are you blind to God but you can't read also.
Could be a fatal combination.
=====
RC
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| User: "Divin Marquis" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
06 Dec 2004 08:05:26 PM |
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Le Sun, 05 Dec 2004 00:04:00 -0800, mutatisutandis a écrit :
A little less than a month ago I went to see a film called "what the
#$!@*% do we know!?". To put it bluntly, I thought it was garbage. I
expected them to cover a wide spectrum of philosophical and scientific
theories about human existence, reality, the universe, etc.
I heard it was basically a recruiting video for some buddhist-oid cult.
.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
07 Dec 2004 12:18:50 AM |
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No.
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| User: "ArWeGod" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
07 Dec 2004 07:28:31 AM |
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"Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:jpiar0ha4fj3ih743ht9c5mp4acmjidq3s@4ax.com...
No.
To expand upon that, I would like to say, "No way."
--
ArWeTerse
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| User: "Liz" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
05 Dec 2004 09:34:59 AM |
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On 5 Dec 2004 00:04:00 -0800,
(mutatisutandis) in news message
<b4c02ecc.0412050004.153899bf@posting.google.com> wrote:
A little less than a month ago I went to see a film called "what the
#$!@*% do we know!?". To put it bluntly, I thought it was garbage. I
expected them to cover a wide spectrum of philosophical and scientific
theories about human existence, reality, the universe, etc.
They started off introducing the basics of quantum physics/mechanics
with different scholars - all with the same point of view - commenting
and making clarifications with various hypothetical situations. I put
aside some of the cheesy music and acting and kept an open mind, but I
began feeling discouraged as they suddenly started twisting in all
this new-age bs, and by the end of the movie they were preaching this
so called "scientific" theory of god - sort of like a really queer
pantheistic view mixed with a little fung shui and Hollywood yoga.
Anyways, does quantum physics even suggest the supernatural? I mean
they got into all this ***** about positive thinking and water
molecules responding to "vibes". I don't know maybe I'm wrong, being
that I know squat about quantum physics (as everyone else was telling
me - all theists)and maybe they were presenting an accurate position.
I was just expecting to see something where they don't have to tie in
spirituality or religion as a legit subject within science. I wouldn't
mind if they addressed god and the supernatural just as long as they
gave equal say towards a non-theistic view/s, letting the viewer
decide for themself. I just think both arguments can't be proved
through science and are a highly subjective topic that only serves a
place within metaphysics.
To answer your subject line question, no. What quantum physics
suggests is that most people don't understand it, and that they are
more than willing to make up things to make them feel better about not
understanding it.
Liz #658 BAAWA
Many...freely confess that they believe what it makes them
feel good to believe. Evidence doesn't play much of a role.
They are alleviating their fear of randomness by identifying
regularities that are not there. - Murray Gell-Mann
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| User: "Hypatia Kosh" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
05 Dec 2004 01:29:58 PM |
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Liz <ehuth1@donotspam.com> wrote in message news:<7na6r0p8ebm42n3qev25qev57db054aop2@4ax.com>...
On 5 Dec 2004 00:04:00 -0800,
(mutatisutandis) in news message
<b4c02ecc.0412050004.153899bf@posting.google.com> wrote:
A little less than a month ago I went to see a film called "what the
#$!@*% do we know!?". To put it bluntly, I thought it was garbage. I
expected them to cover a wide spectrum of philosophical and scientific
theories about human existence, reality, the universe, etc.
They started off introducing the basics of quantum physics/mechanics
with different scholars - all with the same point of view - commenting
and making clarifications with various hypothetical situations. I put
aside some of the cheesy music and acting and kept an open mind, but I
began feeling discouraged as they suddenly started twisting in all
this new-age bs, and by the end of the movie they were preaching this
so called "scientific" theory of god - sort of like a really queer
pantheistic view mixed with a little fung shui and Hollywood yoga.
Anyways, does quantum physics even suggest the supernatural? I mean
they got into all this ***** about positive thinking and water
molecules responding to "vibes". I don't know maybe I'm wrong, being
that I know squat about quantum physics (as everyone else was telling
me - all theists)and maybe they were presenting an accurate position.
I was just expecting to see something where they don't have to tie in
spirituality or religion as a legit subject within science. I wouldn't
mind if they addressed god and the supernatural just as long as they
gave equal say towards a non-theistic view/s, letting the viewer
decide for themself. I just think both arguments can't be proved
through science and are a highly subjective topic that only serves a
place within metaphysics.
To answer your subject line question, no. What quantum physics
suggests is that most people don't understand it, and that they are
more than willing to make up things to make them feel better about not
understanding it.
To quote the famous physicist: "If you think you understand quantum
mechanics, you don't."
Our brains evolved to handle the classical domain. The quantum domain
is outside our experience. There is no reason that it *should* make
sense to us. It would be nice if it *did*, but it *doesn't*.
We can only check our experimental results, do our calculations, and
call it good enough.
-Hy
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Does quantum physics/mechanics suggest a higher power? |
07 Dec 2004 12:18:46 PM |
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On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 00:04:00 -0800, mutatisutandis wrote:
A little less than a month ago I went to see a film called "what the
#$!@*% do we know!?". To put it bluntly, I thought it was garbage. I
expected them to cover a wide spectrum of philosophical and scientific
theories about human existence, reality, the universe, etc.
They started off introducing the basics of quantum physics/mechanics with
different scholars - all with the same point of view - commenting and
making clarifications with various hypothetical situations. I put aside
some of the cheesy music and acting and kept an open mind, but I began
feeling discouraged as they suddenly started twisting in all this new-age
bs, and by the end of the movie they were preaching this so called
"scientific" theory of god - sort of like a really queer pantheistic view
mixed with a little fung shui and Hollywood yoga.
Anyways, does quantum physics even suggest the supernatural? I mean they
No. QM suggests that we have no idea how the world *really* operates.
Our brains evolved to help us catch food and avoid being eaten by larger,
faster predators. The fact that we can use it to understand a little bit
of how the Universe operates is a fortuitous by-product. If you look too
closely, however, you realize how superficial our understanding really is.
You also come to realize that guesses based on wishful thinking, which
covers about 99% of "new age" metaphysics, are not likely to be correct,
though they can make you feel better.
QM reminds me of biology. Before the microscope, biology was simple: it's
pretty easy to tell the difference between plants and animals. When you
look real closely, however, there are gazillions of microscopic organisms
that are not clearly either, and for some viri it is debatable whether
they even qualify as being "alive."
QM is similar in that things are pretty simple if you stick to looking at
matter in sizable chunks. When you start to examine individual electrons
and photons, however, things get messy real fast.
Take a lesson from the clerics: decide what is "true", then put your
fingers in you ears and shout "BLAH BLAH BLAH..." if someone tries to
inform you of something that would contradict your "truth".
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
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