| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Steve O" |
| Date: |
19 Nov 2004 06:31:32 AM |
| Object: |
Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
Read my lips, ms libby, one moment after you die, you too will stand
before God to answer
for what you did while in the flesh.
You don't want to believe me - fine. It's your funeral, not mine.
duke
*****
Duke...Is God all forgiving?
If he is, I'll be right behind you at the Pearly Gates.
And we'll both get in, right?
No answer, Duke???
Is God an all forgiving God or not?
Difficult conundrum isn't it?
While you reckon I'll be going straight to hell, it would appear, if God is
all forgiving, that I'll be just as forgiven as you expect to be.
God loves all sinners, Duke.
Perhaps he even loves you more than me?
Doesn't that ***** you off a little?
Still no answer, Duke?
....Duke???????
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| User: "Ichimusai" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
21 Nov 2004 03:25:39 PM |
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Les Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> writes:
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
Oh, me likes. I used to live in Hessle just outside Kingston upon
Hull, back in 1996-97. It was then called East Riding of Yorkshire but
then they apparently changed it to something elst.
--
Ichimusai http://ichimusai.org/ AA #769 ICQ: 1645566 Yahoo: Ichimusai
MSN: Ichimusai1972 AOL: Ichimusai1972 IRC: Ichimusai@IRCNet
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
exposing the country to danger."
-- Hermann Goering
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
22 Nov 2004 07:55:28 AM |
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On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:25:39 +0100, Ichimusai <ichi@ichimusai.org>
wrote:
Les Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> writes:
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
Oh, me likes. I used to live in Hessle just outside Kingston upon
Hull, back in 1996-97. It was then called East Riding of Yorkshire but
then they apparently changed it to something elst.
Yep. Hessle is now in "East Yorkshire" after not being in Yorkshire
at all for a while. Something to do with the will of the people or
some such strange notion :-) The campaign was fought hard and
long by true Tykes supported by Lincolnshire folk ower t'umber who
wanted to be back in their county again and we won through in the
end. :-)
Now, can we have our beloved Ridings back please?
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "Ichimusai" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
28 Nov 2004 05:33:00 AM |
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Les Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> writes:
[...]
Yep. Hessle is now in "East Yorkshire" after not being in Yorkshire
at all for a while. Something to do with the will of the people or
some such strange notion :-) The campaign was fought hard and long
by true Tykes supported by Lincolnshire folk ower t'umber who wanted
to be back in their county again and we won through in the end. :-)
I'm glad that people actually were able to do summat about it.
Now, can we have our beloved Ridings back please?
I have never regarded it as anything else :)
--
Ichimusai http://ichimusai.org/ AA #769 ICQ: 1645566 Yahoo: Ichimusai
MSN: Ichimusai1972 AOL: Ichimusai1972 IRC: Ichimusai@IRCNet
"Cannot delete 016: There is not enough free disk space. Delete one
more files to free disk space, and then try again."
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
20 Nov 2004 08:09:18 AM |
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On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:13:51 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:22:45 +0000, Les Hellawell <myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
Hey, join the queue I am still waiting to responces to my post.
I pleaded I asked him nicely but he won't even give me any of
this evidence he claims of of his concept 'god'.
I haven't? I've already posted it over a dozen times on this ng.
Oh, well, what's one more time.
thank you for taking the trouble.
I will of course carefully study this evidence but first a quick scan
for now if you don't mind
*****
Evidence of God (Rev1)- duke32, circa 2002AD
1. The belief that a supreme being is the creator of the universe is
based on a profession by those that believe that is equal to, but no
less than, any profession that our universe exists for any other
alternative reason that can be imagined.
No evidence just opinion so here so quickly scanned for now.
One could hypothesize an astronomical event such as a prior universe
that collapsed in on itself and has now exploded outward to form our new
present universe. If this did happen, it would have happened again
and again for the same reason as the latest occurrence, thereby
suggesting that the universe always was, is, and always will be. Yet
another equal suggestion is that the universe was birthed out of
another universe, or another dimension.
Ditto
The human mind cannot cope with the idea that all things lack a
beginning, and clearly neither matter nor energy on their own, the
basic building blocks of the universe, could either exist in and of
itself, or in and of its own intelligence.
Err I can cope quite well with that idea. In fact I have thought that
is the case for a long time now. Can offer no proof of course it is
just my opinion.
Again no evidence of TCG (the concept 'god')
The profession by believers is that our universe is a creation of
almighty God who is truly acknowledged as "always was, is, and always
will be". No alternative is available.
Opinion by the profession of believers not evidence. Not claimed as
evidence either just an honest acceptance of belief and the logical
outcome of this belief.
2. The big bang - first there was nothing - no time, no mass, no energy, no "outer space"
- then an infinitely small point of infinitely dense mass appeared which was not there
before, and then it exploded outward to form our universe, including "time" and all "outer
space" as we know it.
Discussion of current scientific thought concerning the universe. Not
evidence of TCG
The universe is expanding, but into what? Is there an edge to the universe, and if there
is, what is it expanding into?
speculation nobody knows this of course. No evidence of TCG here
I scan on
3. Medical science itself professes the human body to reflect a
"design with purpose". It consists of a central computer (brain)
supported by a fluid transfer system (blood) forced along by a pump
(heart), an energy conversion system (stomach and intestines), a waste
disposal system, an oxygen transfer system (lungs) that is required to
transfer necessary oxygen to the brain and to the body parts,
maintenance organs (spleen, gall bladder, etc), and a body salinity
(same as ocean water) exactly correct as necessary for transfer of
minute electrical signals to/from the brain to operate and control the
body.
A laymans attempt to explain how the body works and opinion based
on current scientific thought. No evidence of a god presented no
relevance that I can see either. This article is entitled "Evidence of
God" the authors seems to have lost the plot and is rambling about
how the body works!
I scan on:
4. The conception equation contained in animal forms is divided 50%
in the male and 50% in the female. We only mix the chemicals. Of special interest is the
fact that the male and female organs are of complimentary shape in mammals. These two
facts are especially conducive to support planned design.
More description of human body.
The concept 'god' not even mentioned thus far
I am getting weary. When do we get to the evidence?
I plod on:
5. ARC101: In the overall scheme of advancement in relationships of
life forms as we move from the least to the greatest:
Reminds me of a passage in Mozart's "A musical joke"
The rock (inanimate object) does not respond to, or relate to, the
plant's existence because it fully lacks the faculties to do so. Nor
does the plant acknowledge, in any fashion, it's awareness of the
inanimate object.
I think a pattern is starting to emerge
I scan on
One level upward, the plant (simple life) does not respond to, or
relate to, the cow's existence because it lacks the faculties to do
so. However, the cow does have a limited reverse recognition of the
plant because it is a noted food source for the cow, but the plant
does not relate in any way to the cow, what it is, or why it is.
I get the impression that this an an attempt to classify all living
things into some kind of hierarchy based on intelligence and
perceptive ability. Why not just say that and get on with it instead
of all this long winded stuff
Reminds me of Mozart's "A musical joke"
One level up, the cow (complex life form) does not respond to, or
relate to, the human's existence, other than in very rudimentary ways,
because it lacks the faculties to do so. Man, on the other hand, has
a full range of knowledge and a clear relationship directed backward
to the cow including leading the cow by the nose, but the cow has
minimal upward reaction to the man other than the cow sees the man,
but has no idea what the man is or what the man does or why the man is
there.
ditto Some living things comprehend better than others. Humans
happen to have the greatest ability to do that. Monkeys and Dolphins
come next followed by animals with smaller and smaller brains
We know that so what?
Notice how one level can relate backwards to a lower level, but in the
opposite higher level only in a very rudimentary fashion. Yet each
higher level not only exists but exists "basically unknown" to the
level below it.
ok living things can be classified into levels of perception.
A rock does not life so is excluded. A plant does not even know
it exists let alone other things whilst some animals know they and
other animals exist but perhaps can only conceive that which it
can see.
We can perceive then find things we cannot see (that how we
found the outer planets of course so can conceive of other
entities for which we have no knowledge - this we finally get to
my request for evidence of TCG.
Still no evidence just this somwehat longwinded exposition of
this idea that living things exist at different levels
What, then, regarding the existence of a level higher than the human?
As is seen at each level, the inability, or limited ability, to relate
to the level above it does not in any way negate its very existence.
Ah, we get to TCG at last! My ears *****.
We knowingly lack sufficient faculties to respond to, or relate to, a
higher level above man. Does this negate the existence of such a
level? Why should we be able to relate upwards when lower life can't.
So we have this idea of levels of existence
Sounds reasonable
So
level 1: things that cannot conceive things at any higher level
or even itself. The lowest level clearly
Level 2: things that can conceive itself and other things at
this level and below but cannot conceive things at a higher level.
Things at this level did not create things at level at this level
and below
Level 3: As level 2 but something else we do not know. Still
cannot conceive things at a higher level
Level 4 ?
level 5?
level n (where n is any number between 5 and infinity
As we can conceive ourself and other things at our level
and below and can conceive things that we cannot observe
such as TCG we are in Level 2 I guess.
As we cannot conceive anything at a higher level then equally
obviously we havent done it yet and thus all that all we have ever
conceived such as TCG cannot be at this unconcievable level
thus TCG is also a level 2 (or lower) conception. Obviously as
Level 2 things cannot even create level 1 things let along things
at lower level TCG cannot create things at level 1 Thus the concept
god - if it actually exists cannot have created us.
Sounds reasonable
I like this reasoning that you have given us Duke!
Well whatever, none of this is evidence that TCG exists.
By all logic, there should be at least one level above human.
There is no logic presented in this article that demonstrates
this just that there are at least two levels. Clearly if we cannot
conceive a higher level we are just left with not being able
to say their isn't one or just that it is pure fantasy. Just as
lower level beings cannot perceive our existence let alone
themselves they cannot conceive we are gods and neither
can we conceive anything about anything at a higher level.
It may be even completely illogical argument . If we can even
conceive there is a higher level then that level has to be at our
level. A catch 22 I think!
I do not see in any of this logic any claim our our level created
any of the lower levels and thus any argument that a higher level
created ours. Indeed the religious claim we cannot
create any living matter no matter how many levels it
may be below us. Can this argument be extended to claim that
one entity, no matter its level cannot create other entities? I
cannot create a spider a spider cannot create a field
of wheat and a field of wheat cannot create a microbe. It seems
logical to conclude from this that nothing whatever its level
can create live in any other. Of course if we succeed in creating
life then the argument changes.
Whatever none of this is of the slightest relevance to the
articles title. There is no evidence of TCG no argument to
deminstrate TCG just illogical discussion of perceived levels
As humans (mankind), we possess tremendous advanced faculties over
those of the cow - intelligence, reason, logic, love, empathy,
sympathy, knowing we suffer and why, etc. And we can use these
faculties to study, learn, reason, dream, and subjectively conclude
that, logically speaking, some level should exist higher than man.
Yet, thus far, have not created a single living at even the lowest
level of existence, Nothing, zilch.
As before, we too are limited in our ability to relate to that higher
level, but in no way does this negate its existence.
Nope but this does not means it exists either nor has any argument
been put forward that it does. All the discussion has done thus far
is to put forward reasoning that there are levels,
If there is no greater known than man, then man would be the pinnacle
of life, the top - evidenced by the mess we make of the world - war,
disease, pestilence, hatred, man's inhumanity to man, etc.
True if you think in terms of pinnacles, though all mountains have
tops and all valleys and seas have bottoms.
Man as the ultimate, the pinnacle, the top, is illogical.
There is nothing in the above argument that demonstrated this logic.
Lots of things have 'highest' or pinnacles. Everest is the highest
mountain on earth, the USA has more nuclear weapons than any
other country, China has more soldiers, grows more potatos than
any other country (according to Encarta anyway) man is the most
intelligent being we know - unless you care to provide evidence
that demonstrates someting more intelligent
How many levels are there above us? We don't know - we can't even
prove so much as one level.
Ah! So the logic that gave rise to these 'levels' is unproven? Thank
goodness I only scanned through all the stuff above as the conclusion
from it is admittedly unproven anyway!
This is clearly half-baked and admittedly so. The author has clearly
lost the plot. He is supposed to be providing "Evidence of god"
yet all has done is produce some half baked idea about level which
he admits he cannot prove.
So here we are almost at the end of the article with absolutely no
evidence whatsover of TCG and an author who almost admits he
does not know what he is talking about.
The top level, by all logic, must be
*perfection*. Is it reasonable to think the move from man to the top
is made in one step? That is not very imaginative.
Now,having lost the plot completely, like the supposed composer
of "A musical joke" he side steps to something completely
different and introduces out of the blue this idea of 'perfection' to
these addmittedly unproven level. After admitting he is no good
at logical proof he abandons all attempts and asks to accept
this "by all logic" on his say so with no attempt whatsover to explain
int. He has now ceased even to be honest.
So let's think in term of two steps - one greater than man and one
lesser than a supreme being. Strangely enough, the "angel" fits the
position exactly, more than man but less than perfection.
What angel? Where has this concept of an 'Angel' suddenly sprung
from? Please lets search for proof of TCG before introducing other
strange concepts
Can we prove it - of course not. But we can use our advanced
capacities to dream, to aspire, to reach out for that possible next
step, from which we can profess to truly be the creation of one more
perfect than us.
So no evidence whatsover of a god, not even a proven logical
argument jusr dreams and aspirations and a confession. I am
really disappointed in this Duke. I does not even attempt to
provide evidence
Duke, you need to do better than this. It is patently not evidence
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
19 Nov 2004 04:10:28 PM |
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On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:31:32 -0000, "Steve O" <stevobo@aol.com> wrote:
Read my lips, ms libby, one moment after you die, you too will stand
before God to answer for what you did while in the flesh.
You don't want to believe me - fine. It's your funeral, not mine.
duke
Duke...Is God all forgiving?
Sure, if you make amends for your sinfulness in life. He's already invited Adam and Eve
to move on for their actions, and he'll do the same for you and me if we don't please him.
If he is, I'll be right behind you at the Pearly Gates.
And we'll both get in, right?
It all depends on the garbage on your soul when you arrive.
No answer, Duke???
Is God an all forgiving God or not?
Difficult conundrum isn't it?
No, not at all.
BTW, you talk as if I wasn't answering you. Well, I just found you, so now you have my
answer.
While you reckon I'll be going straight to hell, it would appear, if God is
all forgiving, that I'll be just as forgiven as you expect to be.
God loves all sinners, Duke.
Yes, but he hates all sin. So if you embrace sin rather than his way, you're booked to
go.
Perhaps he even loves you more than me?
Doesn't that ***** you off a little?
No, we each will be dutifully rewarded for what we bring to the party.
Still no answer, Duke?
...Duke???????
Here I am, bubba. Do you have any other questions?
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
20 Nov 2004 03:50:28 AM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:5crsp0hl2kvctj6da4h7jkq1dv1kddt1vq@4ax.com...
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:31:32 -0000, "Steve O" <stevobo@aol.com> wrote:
Read my lips, ms libby, one moment after you die, you too will stand
before God to answer for what you did while in the flesh.
You don't want to believe me - fine. It's your funeral, not mine.
duke
Duke...Is God all forgiving?
Sure, if you make amends for your sinfulness in life.
Apparently you don't understand the "all" part of all forgiving. If one is
all forgiving, there can be no conditions for forgiveness, by definition.
He's already invited Adam and Eve
to move on for their actions, and he'll do the same for you and me if we
don't please him.
If the god does not forgive everyone regardless of its pleasure with them,
then it is not all forgiving.
If he is, I'll be right behind you at the Pearly Gates.
And we'll both get in, right?
It all depends on the garbage on your soul when you arrive.
All forgiving means no conditions.
No answer, Duke???
Is God an all forgiving God or not?
Difficult conundrum isn't it?
No, not at all.
You can't seem to answer without contradicting yourself.
BTW, you talk as if I wasn't answering you. Well, I just found you, so
now you have my
answer.
Your answer amounts to "Yes, but No."
That's not really an answer.
While you reckon I'll be going straight to hell, it would appear, if God
is
all forgiving, that I'll be just as forgiven as you expect to be.
God loves all sinners, Duke.
Yes, but he hates all sin. So if you embrace sin rather than his way,
you're booked to
go.
That would be called "unforgiving", not "all forgiving".
Perhaps he even loves you more than me?
Doesn't that ***** you off a little?
No, we each will be dutifully rewarded for what we bring to the party.
There's an easy test to see if something is all forgiving. If there's
something it doesn't forgive, then it isn't.
Still no answer, Duke?
...Duke???????
Here I am, bubba. Do you have any other questions?
You haven't answered the question yet. You say yes, but then insist upon
conditions that say no. Which is it?
It's like when Christians call salvation a gift. Paying for a benefit with
servitude is called a trade, not a gift. It's a commercial transaction.
Sheesh.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
20 Nov 2004 07:29:41 AM |
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On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 03:50:28 -0600, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:
Duke...Is God all forgiving?
Sure, if you make amends for your sinfulness in life.
Apparently you don't understand the "all" part of all forgiving. If one is
all forgiving, there can be no conditions for forgiveness, by definition.
That's right. It's your decision to exclude yourself from "all".
He's already invited Adam and Eve
to move on for their actions, and he'll do the same for you and me if we
don't please him.
If the god does not forgive everyone regardless of its pleasure with them,
then it is not all forgiving.
Right.
If he is, I'll be right behind you at the Pearly Gates.
And we'll both get in, right?
It all depends on the garbage on your soul when you arrive.
All forgiving means no conditions.
Well, God probably will disagree with you, but you need to discuss that with him. I
suggest you go to church on Sunday and discuss it with him.
No answer, Duke???
Is God an all forgiving God or not?
Difficult conundrum isn't it?
No, not at all.
You can't seem to answer without contradicting yourself.
Nope, I've always said "if". And that's your part in the deal.
BTW, you talk as if I wasn't answering you. Well, I just found you, so
now you have my
answer.
Your answer amounts to "Yes, but No."
The intelligent understand.
That's not really an answer.
I dont' expect you to understand.
While you reckon I'll be going straight to hell, it would appear, if God
is
all forgiving, that I'll be just as forgiven as you expect to be.
God loves all sinners, Duke.
Yes, but he hates all sin. So if you embrace sin rather than his way,
you're booked to
go.
That would be called "unforgiving", not "all forgiving".
Correct. I've always pushed the "if".
Perhaps he even loves you more than me?
Doesn't that ***** you off a little?
No, we each will be dutifully rewarded for what we bring to the party.
There's an easy test to see if something is all forgiving. If there's
something it doesn't forgive, then it isn't.
Correct.
Still no answer, Duke?
...Duke???????
Here I am, bubba. Do you have any other questions?
You haven't answered the question yet. You say yes, but then insist upon
conditions that say no. Which is it?
See above.
It's like when Christians call salvation a gift. Paying for a benefit with
servitude is called a trade, not a gift. It's a commercial transaction.
Sheesh.
Responding positively to God's will is not paying for it.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
20 Nov 2004 12:48:59 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:7dhup05trtg0pai7g1it66bkt56rhm81e0@4ax.com...
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 03:50:28 -0600, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:
Duke...Is God all forgiving?
Sure, if you make amends for your sinfulness in life.
Apparently you don't understand the "all" part of all forgiving. If one
is
all forgiving, there can be no conditions for forgiveness, by definition.
That's right. It's your decision to exclude yourself from "all".
All forgiving means there is no exclusion possible.
He's already invited Adam and Eve
to move on for their actions, and he'll do the same for you and me if
we
don't please him.
If the god does not forgive everyone regardless of its pleasure with
them,
then it is not all forgiving.
Right.
So it's not all forgiving, according to you.
If he is, I'll be right behind you at the Pearly Gates.
And we'll both get in, right?
It all depends on the garbage on your soul when you arrive.
All forgiving means no conditions.
Well, God probably will disagree with you, but you need to discuss that
with him.
It's the definition of the fucking words.
I
suggest you go to church on Sunday and discuss it with him.
In other words, you have no answer.
No answer, Duke???
Is God an all forgiving God or not?
Difficult conundrum isn't it?
No, not at all.
You can't seem to answer without contradicting yourself.
Nope, I've always said "if". And that's your part in the deal.
There's no "if" in all forgiving.
BTW, you talk as if I wasn't answering you. Well, I just found you, so
now you have my
answer.
Your answer amounts to "Yes, but No."
The intelligent understand.
....that you have no answer.
Noted.
That's not really an answer.
I dont' expect you to understand.
Again no answer.
Noted.
While you reckon I'll be going straight to hell, it would appear, if
God
is
all forgiving, that I'll be just as forgiven as you expect to be.
God loves all sinners, Duke.
Yes, but he hates all sin. So if you embrace sin rather than his way,
you're booked to
go.
That would be called "unforgiving", not "all forgiving".
Correct. I've always pushed the "if".
So the answer is no, the god is not all forgiving. It can't be all forgiving
AND unforgiving.
Perhaps he even loves you more than me?
Doesn't that ***** you off a little?
No, we each will be dutifully rewarded for what we bring to the party.
There's an easy test to see if something is all forgiving. If there's
something it doesn't forgive, then it isn't.
Correct.
You seem to be settling on the answer "no".
Still no answer, Duke?
...Duke???????
Here I am, bubba. Do you have any other questions?
You haven't answered the question yet. You say yes, but then insist upon
conditions that say no. Which is it?
See above.
That would be a No.
Ok, that's pretty clear.
It's like when Christians call salvation a gift. Paying for a benefit
with
servitude is called a trade, not a gift. It's a commercial transaction.
Sheesh.
Responding positively to God's will is not paying for it.
Yes it is. Gifts don't have strings attached.
Worship is payment for services rendered.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
21 Nov 2004 08:08:03 AM |
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On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:48:59 -0600, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:
That's right. It's your decision to exclude yourself from "all".
All forgiving means there is no exclusion possible.
That's very right. God is not all forgiving - that's an atheist pipedream.
Well, God probably will disagree with you, but you need to discuss that
with him.
It's the definition of the fucking words.
Then why do you keep looking for a loophole in my words?
Nope, I've always said "if". And that's your part in the deal.
There's no "if" in all forgiving.
Correct.
Responding positively to God's will is not paying for it.
Yes it is. Gifts don't have strings attached.
Worship is payment for services rendered.
No, worship is acknowledgement of right v wrong.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
21 Nov 2004 02:00:03 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:v181q05n50s1faaat8cjodeqorgq7rpfj7@4ax.com...
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 12:48:59 -0600, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:
That's right. It's your decision to exclude yourself from "all".
All forgiving means there is no exclusion possible.
That's very right. God is not all forgiving - that's an atheist
pipedream.
So the god is not all forgiving. Got it.
Well, God probably will disagree with you, but you need to discuss that
with him.
It's the definition of the fucking words.
Then why do you keep looking for a loophole in my words?
Because you seemed to be arguing both sides.
Nope, I've always said "if". And that's your part in the deal.
There's no "if" in all forgiving.
Correct.
Excellent, so we can agree that your god character is not all forgiving.
Responding positively to God's will is not paying for it.
Yes it is. Gifts don't have strings attached.
Worship is payment for services rendered.
No, worship is acknowledgement of right v wrong.
How do you know what's right and what's wrong?
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "GoDrex" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
20 Nov 2004 07:18:43 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:7dhup05trtg0pai7g1it66bkt56rhm81e0@4ax.com...
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 03:50:28 -0600, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:
Duke...Is God all forgiving?
Sure, if you make amends for your sinfulness in life.
Apparently you don't understand the "all" part of all forgiving. If one is
all forgiving, there can be no conditions for forgiveness, by definition.
That's right. It's your decision to exclude yourself from "all".
HAHAHAHAHAHA that's classic!!
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
21 Nov 2004 04:32:04 AM |
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On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 20:18:43 -0500, "GoDrex" <godrex35@hotmail.com>
wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:7dhup05trtg0pai7g1it66bkt56rhm81e0@4ax.com...
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 03:50:28 -0600, "Denis Loubet" <dloubet@io.com> wrote:
Duke...Is God all forgiving?
Sure, if you make amends for your sinfulness in life.
Apparently you don't understand the "all" part of all forgiving. If one is
all forgiving, there can be no conditions for forgiveness, by definition.
That's right. It's your decision to exclude yourself from "all".
HAHAHAHAHAHA that's classic!!
That's a fair point. He argues that forgiveness is only given
when asked for. He just claims that many of us are not even given the
chance to ask. Thus far no 'god' has appeared before me in
a way I can see and given me the opportunity, nor have I been 'called
to account' and asked if I wish to seek it.
Of course many people including Duke have told me I need to do
it before I die but not one has presented me with a badge of office
from the god they claim authorising them to speak on its behalf
and that includes those that wrote the Bible. The Koran is claimed to
be "In the name of Allah the mericiful etc" but again the authority
for this is assumed and not presented.
We are told never to admit any official (electricity meter man for
instance) without seeing his authority so why should I admit
anybody claiming to speak for god without authority? Only a fool
would do that surely?
See the quote that appears at the foot of every post Duke makes
I think it says it all. Many (not all) are called yet few are choosen.
What they are called and then choosen for is not explained in
this possibly out of context quote but I take it to mean choosen
to go to heaven (or perhaps hell) or perhaps choosen to see this
god. Perhaps Duke could clarify this.
This god cannot be an all forgiving god if few are choosen to
even get the opportunity to beg for forgiveness, but then if
the god is all forgiven it will also forgive my failure to ask
especially as it has not told me I have done anything I need
to ask forgiveness for or that I need to ask before I die.
OK Duke assuming you are genuinely a spokesman for your
god and what you tell me is true. here goes:
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "RainLover" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
27 Nov 2004 06:05:28 PM |
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On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:32:04 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
See the quote that appears at the foot of every post Duke makes
I think it says it all. Many (not all) are called yet few are choosen.
What they are called and then choosen for is not explained in
this possibly out of context quote but I take it to mean choosen
to go to heaven (or perhaps hell) or perhaps choosen to see this
god. Perhaps Duke could clarify this.
You make an astute observation, Les... Many.... Not 'all' are
called. Even if 'all' were called, who is a non-believer supposed to
believe in? The Mormon Christians? The Catholic Christians? The
Angelican Christians? Purhaps the Klu Klux Klan Christians are the
TRUE chosen?
Of course, if you ask DUKE, his brand of christianity is the correct
brand, but all he has to back up THAT claim is the bible, and every
other Sect of christianity uses the same book to show that THEY are
the Chosen Few...
This god cannot be an all forgiving god if few are choosen to
even get the opportunity to beg for forgiveness, but then if
the god is all forgiven it will also forgive my failure to ask
especially as it has not told me I have done anything I need
to ask forgiveness for or that I need to ask before I die.
If Duke's version of GOD (tm) is ALL FORGIVING, then Duke's god will
forgive atheists for not believing in Him since GOD (tm) would
understand the *WHY* of why atheists didn't believe in Him while
alive, and with all the FAKE christians like Duke, GOD (tm) must be
shocked that any mortal makes it to Him in the first place.
James, Seattle
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
28 Nov 2004 07:22:21 AM |
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On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 16:05:28 -0800, RainLover
<SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover@raincity.com> wrote:
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 10:32:04 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
See the quote that appears at the foot of every post Duke makes
I think it says it all. Many (not all) are called yet few are choosen.
What they are called and then choosen for is not explained in
this possibly out of context quote but I take it to mean choosen
to go to heaven (or perhaps hell) or perhaps choosen to see this
god. Perhaps Duke could clarify this.
You make an astute observation, Les... Many.... Not 'all' are
called. Even if 'all' were called, who is a non-believer supposed to
believe in? The Mormon Christians? The Catholic Christians? The
Angelican Christians? Purhaps the Klu Klux Klan Christians are the
TRUE chosen?
Of course, if you ask DUKE, his brand of christianity is the correct
brand, but all he has to back up THAT claim is the bible, and every
other Sect of christianity uses the same book to show that THEY are
the Chosen Few...
This god cannot be an all forgiving god if few are choosen to
even get the opportunity to beg for forgiveness, but then if
the god is all forgiven it will also forgive my failure to ask
especially as it has not told me I have done anything I need
to ask forgiveness for or that I need to ask before I die.
If Duke's version of GOD (tm) is ALL FORGIVING, then Duke's god will
forgive atheists for not believing in Him since GOD (tm) would
understand the *WHY* of why atheists didn't believe in Him while
alive, and with all the FAKE christians like Duke, GOD (tm) must be
shocked that any mortal makes it to Him in the first place.
James, Seattle
I think Duke's point is that you have to ask for forgiveness sincerely
before you dies. However if god* is all loving then this god will
forgive even that!
-------------------------------------------------------
*Discaimers for benefit of Mr. Painter
As an atheist I have no beliefs concerning gods and no
reason to accept there is or was a god or gods, whatever
the term 'god' is usually taken to mean.
Even if if this god exists there is no evidence whatsover that
demonstrates beyond doubt that this god has ever communicated
with us therefore all religions including the Roman Catholic Religion
are false and any claims about gods(see above disclaimer re gods)
love or forgiveness are also false. For all we know the god (see
above disclaimer re gods) probably could not care less about us
Rember this: If a god (see disclaimer re gods above) did
create us out of nothing it can also return us to nothing. God
(see disclaimer above re gods) never said anything about
the soul being eternal. It is wishful thinking!
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "RainLover" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
29 Nov 2004 09:11:17 AM |
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On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 13:22:21 +0000, Les Hellawell
<myshredder@leswell.freeuk.com> wrote:
This god cannot be an all forgiving god if few are choosen to
even get the opportunity to beg for forgiveness, but then if
the god is all forgiven it will also forgive my failure to ask
especially as it has not told me I have done anything I need
to ask forgiveness for or that I need to ask before I die.
If Duke's version of GOD (tm) is ALL FORGIVING, then Duke's god will
forgive atheists for not believing in Him since GOD (tm) would
understand the *WHY* of why atheists didn't believe in Him while
alive, and with all the FAKE christians like Duke, GOD (tm) must be
shocked that any mortal makes it to Him in the first place.
James, Seattle
I think Duke's point is that you have to ask for forgiveness sincerely
before you dies. However if god* is all loving then this god will
forgive even that!
Yes, I agree that is Duke's Point... the problem for me is that with
"christians" like Duke making such points, can ANY god blame atheists
for not believing a word they say?
Duke makes a better example of reasoning NOT to become a christian...
funny since his own god said to let them (christians) be known by
their works (words)...
James, Seattle
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| User: "Steve O" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
19 Nov 2004 04:40:12 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:5crsp0hl2kvctj6da4h7jkq1dv1kddt1vq@4ax.com...
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:31:32 -0000, "Steve O" <stevobo@aol.com> wrote:
Read my lips, ms libby, one moment after you die, you too will stand
before God to answer for what you did while in the flesh.
You don't want to believe me - fine. It's your funeral, not mine.
duke
Duke...Is God all forgiving?
Sure, if you make amends for your sinfulness in life.
So let's get this right.
I live my life as an atheist...face God at my death, then, because he's All
Forgiving I just say, "Sorry, let's make amends" and I'm in?
Not much point in avoiding all of that sin if that's all you got to do is
there?
He's already invited Adam and Eve
to move on for their actions, and he'll do the same for you and me if we
don't please him.
Move on where?
If he is, I'll be right behind you at the Pearly Gates.
And we'll both get in, right?
It all depends on the garbage on your soul when you arrive.
But surely I can just ask His forgiveness when I arrive?
As you've confirmed, He's an All Forgiving God so he'll be bound by his own
rules, won't he?
In fact, isn't there something in the Bible about God rejoicing when a
sinner makes amends?
Or is there some rule somewhere that says you've got to do it before you pop
your clogs?
If there is, I'm sure you can point it out to me.
No answer, Duke???
Is God an all forgiving God or not?
Difficult conundrum isn't it?
No, not at all.
BTW, you talk as if I wasn't answering you. Well, I just found you, so
now you have my
answer.
Well thanks.
But your answer has raised a few more questions.
So , what about it?
Can't I just repent after I die?
If not, why not?
While you reckon I'll be going straight to hell, it would appear, if God
is
all forgiving, that I'll be just as forgiven as you expect to be.
God loves all sinners, Duke.
Yes, but he hates all sin. So if you embrace sin rather than his way,
you're booked to
go.
It's never too late to change a booking.
I'll just wait until after I die.
Perhaps he even loves you more than me?
Doesn't that ***** you off a little?
No, we each will be dutifully rewarded for what we bring to the party.
Well, I've led a good life.
I've done one or two good things.
Never really hurt anyone either.
All I haven't done is go to some dusty old building and mumble nonsense once
a week or so.
Still no answer, Duke?
...Duke???????
Here I am, bubba. Do you have any other questions?
Yep.
Did you miss these questions the first time I asked you?
That's why I had to copy and repost them with your name in the subject
header.
At least it got your attention.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
20 Nov 2004 07:22:17 AM |
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Read my lips, ms libby, one moment after you die, you too will stand
before God to answer for what you did while in the flesh.
You don't want to believe me - fine. It's your funeral, not mine.
duke
Duke...Is God all forgiving?
Sure, if you make amends for your sinfulness in life.
So let's get this right.
Are you capable?
I live my life as an atheist...face God at my death, then, because he's All
Forgiving I just say, "Sorry, let's make amends" and I'm in?
1. If you're truly repentant, yes.
2. If you're truly repentant before you die. After you die, it's too late.
Not much point in avoiding all of that sin if that's all you got to do is
there?
Your choice. Only you will reap the reward thereof.
He's already invited Adam and Eve
to move on for their actions, and he'll do the same for you and me if we
don't please him.
Move on where?
Out of heaven.
If he is, I'll be right behind you at the Pearly Gates.
And we'll both get in, right?
It all depends on the garbage on your soul when you arrive.
But surely I can just ask His forgiveness when I arrive?
Nope, then you'll be dead, and all decision making as a human being is over.
As you've confirmed, He's an All Forgiving God so he'll be bound by his own
rules, won't he?
I didn't confirm any such thing.
In fact, isn't there something in the Bible about God rejoicing when a
sinner makes amends?
After you die, you're no longer sinning. By then, you're booked to go.
Or is there some rule somewhere that says you've got to do it before you pop
your clogs?
God's rules.
If there is, I'm sure you can point it out to me.
Done.
BTW, you talk as if I wasn't answering you. Well, I just found you, so
now you have my answer.
Well thanks.
But your answer has raised a few more questions.
So , what about it?
Can't I just repent after I die?
If not, why not?
No, and by then, you're dead, and your decision making time is over.
While you reckon I'll be going straight to hell, it would appear, if God
is all forgiving, that I'll be just as forgiven as you expect to be.
God loves all sinners, Duke.
Yes, but he hates all sin. So if you embrace sin rather than his way,
you're booked to
go.
It's never too late to change a booking.
I'll just wait until after I die.
Decision time is over by then.
No, we each will be dutifully rewarded for what we bring to the party.
Well, I've led a good life.
I've done one or two good things.
Never really hurt anyone either.
All I haven't done is go to some dusty old building and mumble nonsense once
a week or so.
Doesn't sound like you have much use for God. But it's his decision, not mine.
Still no answer, Duke?
...Duke???????
Here I am, bubba. Do you have any other questions?
Yep.
Did you miss these questions the first time I asked you?
Apparently so.
That's why I had to copy and repost them with your name in the subject
header.
At least it got your attention.
Your questions were very easy to answer. Any time I can help you again, don't hesitate to
call.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "Steve O" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
21 Nov 2004 12:19:55 AM |
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Your questions were very easy to answer. Any time I can help you again,
don't hesitate to
call.
Well, you didn't really answer.
You used doublespeak.
First of all you agreed God was All Forgiving, and then you claimed he
wasn't, or at least, was only conditionally forgiving.
You gave no answers at all.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
21 Nov 2004 08:02:03 AM |
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On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 06:19:55 -0000, "Steve O" <stevobo@aol.com> wrote:
Your questions were very easy to answer. Any time I can help you again,
don't hesitate to
call.
Well, you didn't really answer.
You used doublespeak.
Really?
First of all you agreed God was All Forgiving, and then you claimed he
wasn't, or at least, was only conditionally forgiving.
You gave no answers at all.
Where did I agree that God is all forgiving without repentance for sin?
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
.
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| User: "shrikeback" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
21 Nov 2004 11:22:17 AM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:vq71q0dvja30b8hbf2snpl7h6nar7vlaid@4ax.com...
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 06:19:55 -0000, "Steve O" <stevobo@aol.com> wrote:
Your questions were very easy to answer. Any time I can help you
again,
don't hesitate to
call.
Well, you didn't really answer.
You used doublespeak.
Really?
First of all you agreed God was All Forgiving, and then you claimed he
wasn't, or at least, was only conditionally forgiving.
You gave no answers at all.
Where did I agree that God is all forgiving without repentance for sin?
Yeah, yeah. We all know that this whole idea of repentence
and sin is just a ploy to empower priests to make rules for
us. They give these rules an the glow of an omnipotent
enforcer to scare people into feeling scared for breaking
them.
But one of the rules is "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
It seems to me that telling everyone that you know what
will happen when we're dead is just that: bearing false
witness. Reductio ad absurdum. QED.
.
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| User: "Steve O" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
21 Nov 2004 11:53:43 AM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:vq71q0dvja30b8hbf2snpl7h6nar7vlaid@4ax.com...
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 06:19:55 -0000, "Steve O" <stevobo@aol.com> wrote:
Your questions were very easy to answer. Any time I can help you
again,
don't hesitate to
call.
Well, you didn't really answer.
You used doublespeak.
Really?
Yes, really.
First you stated God was all forgiving then yiou stated that God was
conditionally forgiving.
He can't be both.
One condition excludes the other.
First of all you agreed God was All Forgiving, and then you claimed he
wasn't, or at least, was only conditionally forgiving.
You gave no answers at all.
Where did I agree that God is all forgiving without repentance for sin?
here...
Duke...Is God all forgiving?
Duke said...>Sure, if you make amends for your sinfulness in life.
First of all you agreed with the premise, then you applied the condition to
it.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
19 Nov 2004 11:05:32 PM |
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On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:10:28 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> said in
alt.atheism:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:31:32 -0000, "Steve O" <stevobo@aol.com> wrote:
Read my lips, ms libby, one moment after you die, you too will stand
before God to answer for what you did while in the flesh.
You don't want to believe me - fine. It's your funeral, not mine.
Duke...Is God all forgiving?
Sure, if
Oops. He said "all".
If he is, I'll be right behind you at the Pearly Gates.
And we'll both get in, right?
It all depends on the garbage on your soul when you arrive.
Not if your god is *all* forgiving.
While you reckon I'll be going straight to hell, it would appear, if God is
all forgiving, that I'll be just as forgiven as you expect to be.
God loves all sinners, Duke.
Yes, but he hates all sin. So if you embrace sin rather than his way, you're booked to
go.
No, he hates the sin you embrace, but not the sinner who embraces it.
You don't understand your own beliefs very well, do you, Earl?
--
"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They slander each
other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to any sort of
agreement in their teachings. Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own
with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of those it wins over to its
side."
- Celsus On the True Doctrine, translated by R. Joseph Hoffman, Oxford University Press, 1987
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
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| User: "kathryn" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
20 Nov 2004 03:35:01 AM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:d1ktp0dbu0b5vdulg9k4vl05hgeduabq5c@4ax.com...
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:10:28 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> said in
alt.atheism:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:31:32 -0000, "Steve O" <stevobo@aol.com> wrote:
Read my lips, ms libby, one moment after you die, you too will stand
before God to answer for what you did while in the flesh.
You don't want to believe me - fine. It's your funeral, not mine.
Duke...Is God all forgiving?
Sure, if
Oops. He said "all".
If he is, I'll be right behind you at the Pearly Gates.
And we'll both get in, right?
It all depends on the garbage on your soul when you arrive.
Not if your god is *all* forgiving.
While you reckon I'll be going straight to hell, it would appear, if God
is
all forgiving, that I'll be just as forgiven as you expect to be.
God loves all sinners, Duke.
Yes, but he hates all sin. So if you embrace sin rather than his way,
you're booked to
go.
No, he hates the sin you embrace, but not the sinner who embraces it.
You don't understand your own beliefs very well, do you, Earl?
--
"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each
Does the christian god have no limit to his vanity? He'd accept a mass
murdering rapist into heaven as long as they were sorry but not someone of a
different belief who led a faultless life but simply didn't believe in him.
Why do people think someone who they portray as excessively egomanically is
someone we should worship?
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
20 Nov 2004 04:58:47 AM |
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On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:35:01 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <bob@bob.com>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:d1ktp0dbu0b5vdulg9k4vl05hgeduabq5c@4ax.com...
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:10:28 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> said in
alt.atheism:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:31:32 -0000, "Steve O" <stevobo@aol.com> wrote:
Read my lips, ms libby, one moment after you die, you too will stand
before God to answer for what you did while in the flesh.
You don't want to believe me - fine. It's your funeral, not mine.
Duke...Is God all forgiving?
Sure, if
Oops. He said "all".
If he is, I'll be right behind you at the Pearly Gates.
And we'll both get in, right?
It all depends on the garbage on your soul when you arrive.
Not if your god is *all* forgiving.
While you reckon I'll be going straight to hell, it would appear, if God
is
all forgiving, that I'll be just as forgiven as you expect to be.
God loves all sinners, Duke.
Yes, but he hates all sin. So if you embrace sin rather than his way,
you're booked to
go.
No, he hates the sin you embrace, but not the sinner who embraces it.
You don't understand your own beliefs very well, do you, Earl?
--
"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each
Does the christian god have no limit to his vanity? He'd accept a mass
murdering rapist into heaven as long as they were sorry but not someone of a
different belief who led a faultless life but simply didn't believe in him.
Why do people think someone who they portray as excessively egomanically is
someone we should worship?
Something I don't quite get and perhaps Duke could explain
As I understant the concept 'hell' it is a place an unrepentant sinner
goes to for evermore. In this place the sinner endures constant and
horrible pain. Not for a day, not for a year or a thousand years, not
even a million billion years but for evermore with no acceptance of
repentence as it is then too late. I cannot conceive of any loving
god, who forgives all sins, as ever considering any sin to be worth
that degree of punishment . Not even Hitler or other Christians merit
that degree of punishment. At worst your concept of a loving forgiving
god would want to impose a finite sentence then bring you out after it
and then ask 'Do you repent now?'
I also understood, the Christian concept of what happens after death
(about which I could be completely wrong) that people, on death do
not go directly to hell or to heaven but to a concept 'purgatory'
whilst the concept 'god' decides your fate, rather like Christian Nazi
doctors at railway stations decided whether to send jews direct to
death or torture first.
The arch Nazi, one Richard Heidrich, thought to be Hitlers choosen
successor, the organiser of the holocaust in chief, celebrated his
Christian Christmas at church and home whilst children suffered and
died. He attended mass at Praque Cathedral whilst they suffered and
died.
Where is Heidrich now? He probably confessed his sins in the
cathedral, you have to before you can take the 'mass' , so I
guess he is now in heaven at gods side unless he was unlucky
in that one of the concept 'god' choosen people died between the
last time he confessed and died assasinated. Is the assassin
now in hell? He died in the flooded cellar of a church at his own
hands to avoid certain capture.
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
20 Nov 2004 10:03:52 PM |
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On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:35:01 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <bob@bob.com> said
in alt.atheism:
Does the christian god have no limit to his vanity?
No, the Christian god is unlimited. :)
He'd accept a mass
murdering rapist into heaven as long as they were sorry but not someone of a
different belief who led a faultless life but simply didn't believe in him.
Old argument, kathryn. According to Christianity, Hitler goes to
heaven while Gandhi goes to hell.
Why do people think someone who they portray as excessively egomanically is
someone we should worship?
Because he'll throw you into hell if you don't. (Does their god sound
like a 5 year old with a tantrum?)
--
"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They slander each
other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to any sort of
agreement in their teachings. Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own
with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of those it wins over to its
side."
- Celsus On the True Doctrine, translated by R. Joseph Hoffman, Oxford University Press, 1987
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "kathryn" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
21 Nov 2004 06:54:00 AM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:pp40q0lenar9tgukdaarpdq060c7s6cl2p@4ax.com...
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:35:01 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <bob@bob.com> said
in alt.atheism:
Does the christian god have no limit to his vanity?
No, the Christian god is unlimited. :)
He'd accept a mass
murdering rapist into heaven as long as they were sorry but not someone of
a
different belief who led a faultless life but simply didn't believe in
him.
Old argument, kathryn. According to Christianity, Hitler goes to
heaven while Gandhi goes to hell.
Why do people think someone who they portray as excessively egomanically
is
someone we should worship?
Because he'll throw you into hell if you don't. (Does their god sound
like a 5 year old with a tantrum?)
--
I have always been baffled by people who are willing to worship someone like
that and still think they're good people
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
21 Nov 2004 08:33:33 PM |
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On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 12:54:00 +0000 (UTC), "kathryn" <bob@bob.com> said
in alt.atheism:
I have always been baffled by people who are willing to worship someone like
that and still think they're good people
I've always been baffled by people who are willing to worship.
--
"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They slander each
other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to any sort of
agreement in their teachings. Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own
with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of those it wins over to its
side."
- Celsus On the True Doctrine, translated by R. Joseph Hoffman, Oxford University Press, 1987
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
20 Nov 2004 07:24:47 AM |
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On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 05:05:32 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:10:28 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> said in
alt.atheism:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:31:32 -0000, "Steve O" <stevobo@aol.com> wrote:
Read my lips, ms libby, one moment after you die, you too will stand
before God to answer for what you did while in the flesh.
You don't want to believe me - fine. It's your funeral, not mine.
Duke...Is God all forgiving?
Sure, if
Oops. He said "all".
Then I gather the answer is no. A&E were kicked out of heaven. The biblical flood ended
the source of all evil in the world.
If he is, I'll be right behind you at the Pearly Gates.
And we'll both get in, right?
It all depends on the garbage on your soul when you arrive.
Not if your god is *all* forgiving.
From all evidence, apparently he's not.
While you reckon I'll be going straight to hell, it would appear, if God is
all forgiving, that I'll be just as forgiven as you expect to be.
God loves all sinners, Duke.
Yes, but he hates all sin. So if you embrace sin rather than his way, you're booked to
go.
No, he hates the sin you embrace, but not the sinner who embraces it.
You don't understand your own beliefs very well, do you, Earl?
If you embrace what he hates, then you have no time for God. And he sees that.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
20 Nov 2004 10:07:43 PM |
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On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:24:47 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> said in
alt.atheism:
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 05:05:32 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:10:28 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> said in
alt.atheism:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:31:32 -0000, "Steve O" <stevobo@aol.com> wrote:
Read my lips, ms libby, one moment after you die, you too will stand
before God to answer for what you did while in the flesh.
You don't want to believe me - fine. It's your funeral, not mine.
Duke...Is God all forgiving?
Sure, if
Oops. He said "all".
Then I gather the answer is no.
There goes "omni".
A&E were kicked out of heaven.
No, they were kicked out of Eden. The bible doesn't tell us where
they went when they died, or what happened to them later.
The biblical flood ended the source of all evil in the world.
It did? There's no more evil in the world? Bull.
While you reckon I'll be going straight to hell, it would appear, if God is
all forgiving, that I'll be just as forgiven as you expect to be.
God loves all sinners, Duke.
Yes, but he hates all sin. So if you embrace sin rather than his way, you're booked to
go.
No, he hates the sin you embrace, but not the sinner who embraces it.
You don't understand your own beliefs very well, do you, Earl?
If you embrace what he hates, then you have no time for God. And he sees that.
And that's irrelevant in the bible. Not in Christianity, mind you,
but in the bible, which Christianity follows only loosely.
--
"Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They slander each
other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to any sort of
agreement in their teachings. Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own
with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of those it wins over to its
side."
- Celsus On the True Doctrine, translated by R. Joseph Hoffman, Oxford University Press, 1987
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: Duke???...Where are yoooouuu???? |
20 Nov 2004 11:12:57 AM |
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On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 07:24:47 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 05:05:32 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 16:10:28 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> said in
alt.atheism:
On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 12:31:32 -0000, "Steve O" <stevobo@aol.com> wrote:
Read my lips, ms libby, one moment after you die, you too will stand
before God to answer for what you did while in the flesh.
You don't want to believe me - fine. It's your funeral, not mine.
Duke...Is God all forgiving?
Sure, if
Oops. He said "all".
Then I gather the answer is no. A&E were kicked out of heaven. The biblical flood ended
the source of all evil in the world.
If he is, I'll be right behind you at the Pearly Gates.
And we'll both get in, right?
It all depends on the garbage on your soul when you arrive.
Not if your god is *all* forgiving.
From all evidence, apparently he's not.
While you reckon I'll be going straight to hell, it would appear, if God is
all forgiving, that I'll be just as forgiven as you expect to be.
God loves all sinners, Duke.
Yes, but he hates all sin. So if you embrace sin rather than his way, you're booked to
go.
No, he hates the sin you embrace, but not the sinner who embraces it.
You don't understand your own beliefs very well, do you, Earl?
If you embrace what he hates, then you have no time for God. And he sees that.
Even if you have been deceived by a devil into that embrace?
Can you be absolutey sure beyond doubt that you are not in such an
embrace yourself , that this god that you seem to see all too clearly
is not false?
As you say only your concept 'god' can know you mind, not even
yourself if it is deceived.
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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