| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Budikka666" |
| Date: |
13 Jun 2005 04:43:39 PM |
| Object: |
Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
On June 7th in thread "Why There Is no God - Parts 156-170 - The Why
Edition" in a.a. at 6:38pm (http://tinyurl.com/d3ubb) Earl Weber said,
"Pick one subject line on the bible or God, as I've offered to you many
times, and we will talk again. Why are you so afraid of discussion,
bud?"
Earl loves to prove himself a liar. Here he is lying about engaging in
discussion when the truth is that for over a year he's run from every
discussion I've offered him. Even more hilariously, he's also run form
every signle time I've accepted one of his challenges!
The most recent one was *precisely* what he asked for: one subject line
on the bible or God. Here's the offer I've been making him since April
30th (a week *before* he told his lie above):
"Let's discuss the issue of what God thinks of libel. Let's discuss
what God would think of someone who made false accusations of
plagiarism and let's discuss what God might think would constitute
what's legally required to substantiate true accusations. Are you up
for it?"
Clearly Earl isn't up for anything. As usual, he's running away from a
challenge while lying through his teeth that it's the challenger who's
running! I've offered him variations on this challenge **AT LEAST 40
TIMES** since April 30th, and he's run away every time. No surprises
there.
But why would he run away, you ask? He has no choice. The reason he
runs so fast and so far is that if he engaged in this particular
discussion it would provide yet mroe proof of what a lousy liar he is.
In order to desperately try to hide his phenomenal cowardice, he has to
lie even about his lies. But then that is what he does best.
And this is the lying liar who lies that he never lies in his messages
on Usenet!
Now we can all see how cowardly and hypocritical he truly is.
Budikka
.
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
19 Jun 2005 05:19:18 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:49:11 -0700, Ben Goren <ben@trumpetpower.com> wrote:
duke wrote:
Tom wrote:
You mean like we are laughing at you now :-)?
Nope, like I'm laughing at YOU right now.
Hey, duke! How's it hangin'?
Oh, about like it always does.
You remember that little discussion we were having? Where you said
that God has free will and a good moral nature incapable of evil?
Ummm, maybe so. God gave man free will. And of course God is incapable of
evil. So it's definitely true, whether I remember or not.
Well, I never did understand why God, when he created us in his
own image, gave us the free will bit but didn't give us his own
good moral nature incapable of evil.
The answer is very simple. He wants us to choose him.
Do you think you could explain that one to me again? Because,
like, you understand it and I don't. Since you're so much smarter
than me that you've managed to figure it out, I'm hoping you can
teach me why this doesn't mean that God is evil, powerless, both,
or simply nonexistent.
Ok, I did it above.
Thanks! A lot!
Cheers,
You're welcome.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
18 Jun 2005 03:24:04 PM |
|
|
Chicken Gumbo Lied:
Nope, I kicked your butt on the first 8. Then I laughed.
You need to back that up with EVIDENCE, Chicken Gumbo, just like you
told me.
You don't know, do you?
Budikka
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
16 Jun 2005 05:46:36 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 04:51:37 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 04:13:47 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
One of the two flood stories refers to "windows" and "fountains". The other
story talks about just rain. If you go with the rain story the pressure
would increase prior to the start because of the weight of the water. It's
an easier sell than the windows and fountains story.
So just ignore one part? Just because it isn't mentioned in the 2nd story?
Wow!!!
The translations of Gen 1 are wrong and coincide with most such myths of the
time. The god or gods did *not* create out of nothing but worked with
existing material.
Where did the existing material come from?
Probably from the same place that the god, came from.
--
Puck Greenman
The spelling, Like any opinion stated here,
is purely my own
#162 BAAWA Knight.
Plonked by Rob Duncan
Na bister 500,000
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
17 Jun 2005 05:44:55 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:46:36 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote:
Where did the existing material come from?
Probably from the same place that the god, came from.
Nah, he created it.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tom" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
17 Jun 2005 08:00:46 PM |
|
|
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:fik6b1lv61eqil3gln4m625vl4kvvj8o6j@4ax.com...
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:46:36 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote:
Where did the existing material come from?
Probably from the same place that the god, came from.
Nah, he created it.
How, you worthless *****?
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
18 Jun 2005 07:01:13 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:00:46 -0400, "Tom" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:fik6b1lv61eqil3gln4m625vl4kvvj8o6j@4ax.com...
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:46:36 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote:
Where did the existing material come from?
Probably from the same place that the god, came from.
Nah, he created it.
How, you worthless *****?
God is the supreme creator. That's how.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tom" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
18 Jun 2005 08:13:55 AM |
|
|
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:j738b1t656rdt2b8bdg5ff7ufdnlf2hkll@4ax.com...
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 21:00:46 -0400, "Tom" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:fik6b1lv61eqil3gln4m625vl4kvvj8o6j@4ax.com...
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:46:36 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey>
wrote:
Where did the existing material come from?
Probably from the same place that the god, came from.
Nah, he created it.
How, you worthless *****?
God is the supreme creator. That's how.
Note that Puke doesn't have a clue as to how and further more he wishes to
stay ignorant.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
18 Jun 2005 03:23:01 PM |
|
|
Chicken Gumbo Lied:
God is the supreme creator. That's how.
You need to back that up with EVIDENCE, Chicken Gumbo, just like you
told me.
You don't know, do you?
Budikka
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
18 Jun 2005 05:19:26 AM |
|
|
Chicken Gumbo Lied:
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 22:46:36 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote:
Where did the existing material come from?
Probably from the same place that the god, came from.
Nah, he created it.
You need to back that up with EVIDENCE, Chicken Gumbo, just like you
told me.
Mine is in the Noahic flood thread (http://tinyurl.com/4dyok) still
waiting for your cowardly ***** to find the guts to address it. And if
you actually ever do find the guts to do it (no one is holding their
breath on that score), I have a lot more, some of which was presented
here - and what did you do? **YOU RAN FROM IT**!!!!!
Budikka
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
16 Jun 2005 04:24:11 PM |
|
|
duke wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 04:13:47 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
One of the two flood stories refers to "windows" and "fountains".
The other story talks about just rain. If you go with the rain story
the pressure would increase prior to the start because of the weight
of the water. It's an easier sell than the windows and fountains
story.
So just ignore one part? Just because it isn't mentioned in the 2nd
story? Wow!!!
The translations of Gen 1 are wrong and coincide with most such
myths of the time. The god or gods did *not* create out of nothing
but worked with existing material.
Where did the existing material come from?
The story says it was already there. The story is like others from the time.
Creation from nothing is a much later concept.
<snip>
Not likely to be noticed. If the earth were reduced to the size of a
billiard ball it would be smoother than most. Everest stands out
from the earth by about .0625%
And was 0% in the beginning.
It's Thursday, note how Earl's one line response is similar to that of a
drunk at a party who interjects a comment without really understanding the
subject.
This is why a Noahic flood defies the laws of physics and could not
have happened.
This is getting funny now.
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
16 Jun 2005 05:26:15 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:24:11 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
So just ignore one part? Just because it isn't mentioned in the 2nd
story? Wow!!!
Yep, that's about your speed, mikey. No answer is better than making yet
another fool of yourself.
The translations of Gen 1 are wrong and coincide with most such
myths of the time. The god or gods did *not* create out of nothing
but worked with existing material.
Where did the existing material come from?
The story says it was already there. The story is like others from the time.
Creation from nothing is a much later concept.
Hmmmmm, noooooooo. The story says God created it.
Not likely to be noticed. If the earth were reduced to the size of a
billiard ball it would be smoother than most. Everest stands out
from the earth by about .0625%
And was 0% in the beginning.
It's Thursday, note how Earl's one line response is similar to that of a
drunk at a party who interjects a comment without really understanding the
subject.
In a bind again, aren't you mikey. Again, no knowledge on which to base a
challenging answer.
This is why a Noahic flood defies the laws of physics and could not
have happened.
This is getting funny now.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
16 Jun 2005 04:47:54 AM |
|
|
On 14 Jun 2005 19:44:50 -0700, "Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote:
Mike, I hate to disagree with you, but the Bible makes it quite clear
that a significant portion of the water causing the flood came from
above the atmosphere
Nope, Gen 7:11 clearly says "beneath the earth" burst open.
apparently from an orbiting spherical lake
surrounding the Earth that god created "in the beginning" according to
Genesis 1.
That much water (two to five miles, depending on how much water came
from the "fountains of the deep") suspended above the Earth would
create the same air pressure on the Earth's surface as would be found
two to five miles under an ocean. In other words, it would be
uninhabitable to pretty much everything on the rpesent Earth's surface
except for bacteria, viruses, and the arthropoda I'd guess. There'd be
no plants because sunlight can't penetrate at two miles down.
Why 2-5 miles deep? And a few inches of water above sunlight bound plants would
be dead and gone after a few weeks.
When all that water precipitated, the air pressure would decrease
substantially, causing any earth-bound organisms adapted to those
extreme pressures to simply explode or at the very least, evert their
guts.
As the water rose to five miles above present levels, the volume of air
that had previously covered the smaller surface area of the Earth would
have to spread across the new, larger surface area, thereby thinning
even more, wouldn't it?
Nah, a few feet of diameter would not increase the earth's surface but a
smidgen.
This is why a Noahic flood defies the laws of physics and could not
have happened.
Dud, God created the laws of physics. You're out of your league.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tom" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
16 Jun 2005 08:40:09 AM |
|
|
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:h6i2b11j99nafnqs3i15hmigr2ljts6br9@4ax.com...
On 14 Jun 2005 19:44:50 -0700, "Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote:
Mike, I hate to disagree with you, but the Bible makes it quite clear
that a significant portion of the water causing the flood came from
above the atmosphere
Nope, Gen 7:11 clearly says "beneath the earth" burst open.
apparently from an orbiting spherical lake
surrounding the Earth that god created "in the beginning" according to
Genesis 1.
That much water (two to five miles, depending on how much water came
from the "fountains of the deep") suspended above the Earth would
create the same air pressure on the Earth's surface as would be found
two to five miles under an ocean. In other words, it would be
uninhabitable to pretty much everything on the rpesent Earth's surface
except for bacteria, viruses, and the arthropoda I'd guess. There'd be
no plants because sunlight can't penetrate at two miles down.
Why 2-5 miles deep? And a few inches of water above sunlight bound plants
would
be dead and gone after a few weeks.
When all that water precipitated, the air pressure would decrease
substantially, causing any earth-bound organisms adapted to those
extreme pressures to simply explode or at the very least, evert their
guts.
As the water rose to five miles above present levels, the volume of air
that had previously covered the smaller surface area of the Earth would
have to spread across the new, larger surface area, thereby thinning
even more, wouldn't it?
Nah, a few feet of diameter would not increase the earth's surface but a
smidgen.
This is why a Noahic flood defies the laws of physics and could not
have happened.
Dud, God created the laws of physics. You're out of your league.
God didn't do jackshit Puke, because god doesn't exist except in the minds
of his deluded followers :-).
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
16 Jun 2005 05:27:35 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:40:09 -0400, "Tom" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote:
God didn't do jackshit Puke, because god doesn't exist except in the minds
of his deluded followers :-).
And tom bounces yet again on his head due to pure lack of knowledge of the
subject matter.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tom" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
16 Jun 2005 06:21:58 PM |
|
|
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:95v3b11ok5mqp8jdqv7svtv21prnqn5fbh@4ax.com...
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:40:09 -0400, "Tom" <mmman_90@yahoo.com> wrote:
God didn't do jackshit Puke, because god doesn't exist except in the minds
of his deluded followers :-).
And tom bounces yet again on his head due to pure lack of knowledge of the
subject matter.
What subject matter Puke, that you are running scared or that Gawd doesn't
exist?
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Ben Goren" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
20 Jun 2005 04:24:52 PM |
|
|
duke wrote:
Tom wrote:
God didn't do jackshit Puke, because god doesn't exist except
in the minds of his deluded followers :-).
And tom bounces yet again on his head due to pure lack of
knowledge of the subject matter.
Hey, duke, since you know so much about the subject matter of God,
could you please answer my question? Why does God have free will
and a good moral nature incapable of evil but we don't?
Please? Pretty please? Answer me, I beg of you!
Cheers,
b&
--
God can never prove that this sentence is true.
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
.
|
|
|
| User: "El Bleacho" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
20 Jun 2005 11:54:41 PM |
|
|
Ben Goren wrote:
Hey, duke, since you know so much about the subject matter of God,
could you please answer my question? Why does God have free will
and a good moral nature incapable of evil but we don't?
Just because God, as an omnipotent and omniscient being elects to be
incapable of evil; why would that preclude humans from being capable of
evil. Of course, keep in mind that I don't subscribe to this stuff - I am
just saying.
--
_____________________
I am hung like Einstein;
and as smart as a horse!
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
21 Jun 2005 12:42:44 AM |
|
|
El Bleacho wrote:
Ben Goren wrote:
Hey, duke, since you know so much about the subject matter of God,
could you please answer my question? Why does God have free will
and a good moral nature incapable of evil but we don't?
Just because God, as an omnipotent and omniscient being elects to be
incapable of evil; why would that preclude humans from being capable
of evil. Of course, keep in mind that I don't subscribe to this
stuff - I am just saying.
You've missed part of the argument and Earl can't give any answer that would
reflect anything beyond his rote learning of catechism.
The question is why would such a god create people with the ability to do
evil when it was not necessary and we are allegedly created in his image.
Surely an omnipotent god could have given us free will and not allowed evil.
Heck, now that most of us use indoor plumbing now it could walk the city
streets without fear of getting ***** on it's feet.
.
|
|
|
| User: "El Bleacho" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
21 Jun 2005 10:44:52 AM |
|
|
Mike Painter wrote:
The question is why would such a god create people with the ability
to do evil when it was not necessary and we are allegedly created in
his image. Surely an omnipotent god could have given us free will and
not allowed evil. Heck, now that most of us use indoor plumbing now
it could walk the city streets without fear of getting ***** on it's
feet.
I can answer from my perspective, but who knows what that other guy is
thinking. IMHO, there was some form of Intelligent Design at two points.
One is the creation of the Universe itself. I have a lot of reasons I
believe this to be true, but the most obvious are that the Universe is so
complex that the odds of it randomly happening are so mimimal as to be
almost impossible; and also the concept of "Cause and Effect". The
Universe is the "effect", so there had to be a "cause" for the Big Bang.
Where there is a beginning, there is a Beginner.
With regard to what God is; well if there is such a thing as a Creator and
this Creator made man in it's own image; then possibly the whole
relationship is that this Creator has free will and so does Man.
Additionally, perhaps this Creator has a spirit and a physical manifestation
of some sort somewhere other than the four dimensions we are experiencing.
If that is the case, then the fact that Man has both a Mind/Soul as well as
a physical body would be the commonality of being made in "His own image".
I definitely believe that the mind and the brain are two separate entities
in and of themselves. For example, you have emotions (love, hate, etc.).
If you lose a portion of your body (a foot, arm, or even a small portion of
your brain), you do not love people less or hate olives on your pizza any
less.
I live on a farm - and am pretty sure that nobody ever died from getting
some horse manure on the soles of his boots.
--
_____________________
I am hung like Einstein;
and as smart as a horse!
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
21 Jun 2005 08:23:37 PM |
|
|
El Bleacho wrote:
Mike Painter wrote:
The question is why would such a god create people with the ability
to do evil when it was not necessary and we are allegedly created in
his image. Surely an omnipotent god could have given us free will and
not allowed evil. Heck, now that most of us use indoor plumbing now
it could walk the city streets without fear of getting ***** on it's
feet.
I can answer from my perspective, but who knows what that other guy
is thinking. IMHO, there was some form of Intelligent Design at two
points. One is the creation of the Universe itself. I have a lot of
reasons I believe this to be true, but the most obvious are that the
Universe is so complex that the odds of it randomly happening are so
mimimal as to be almost impossible; and also the concept of "Cause
and Effect". The Universe is the "effect", so there had to be a
"cause" for the Big Bang. Where there is a beginning, there is a
Beginner.
What caused the beginner? Current theory allows for a single big bang, an
infinite number of single big bangs (only one universe) and an infinite
number of separate big bangs, each of which may have happened an infinite
number of times.
The argument from cause that you postulate makes an arbitrary decision.
With regard to what God is; well if there is such a thing as a
Creator and this Creator made man in it's own image; then possibly
the whole relationship is that this Creator has free will and so does
Man. Additionally, perhaps this Creator has a spirit and a physical
manifestation of some sort somewhere other than the four dimensions
we are experiencing. If that is the case, then the fact that Man has
both a Mind/Soul as well as a physical body would be the commonality
of being made in "His own image". I definitely believe that the mind
and the brain are two separate entities in and of themselves. For
example, you have emotions (love, hate, etc.). If you lose a portion
of your body (a foot, arm, or even a small portion of your brain), you do
not love people less or hate olives on your pizza any less.
There is no evidence that the mind and all emotions are anything more than
electrochemical reactions.
I can stick a needle in your brain and with simple el;ectrical stimulation
create all those feelings.
If you loose the right "small protion of the brain" your emotions may well
change and things like love cease to exist.
As for your creator having free will, you would have to admit that it is not
perfect for it to have any ability to change and that leads down a slippery
slope.
.
|
|
|
| User: "El Bleacho" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
21 Jun 2005 09:09:02 PM |
|
|
Mike Painter wrote:
El Bleacho wrote:
I can answer from my perspective, but who knows what that other guy
is thinking. IMHO, there was some form of Intelligent Design at two
points. One is the creation of the Universe itself. I have a lot of
reasons I believe this to be true, but the most obvious are that the
Universe is so complex that the odds of it randomly happening are so
mimimal as to be almost impossible; and also the concept of "Cause
and Effect". The Universe is the "effect", so there had to be a
"cause" for the Big Bang. Where there is a beginning, there is a
Beginner.
What caused the beginner?
I cannot even start to suppose what it could be that caused a beginner. But
that does not solve the issue of "how do you have a beginning without a
beginner", or "how do you have effect without cause". Not knowing what
could have created a beginner does not negate the fact that there might need
to be a force behind the creation of this Universe.
--
_____________________
I am hung like Einstein;
and as smart as a horse!
.
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
22 Jun 2005 05:02:08 AM |
|
|
El Bleacho wrote:
Mike Painter wrote:
El Bleacho wrote:
I can answer from my perspective, but who knows what that other guy
is thinking. IMHO, there was some form of Intelligent Design at two
points. One is the creation of the Universe itself. I have a lot of
reasons I believe this to be true, but the most obvious are that the
Universe is so complex that the odds of it randomly happening are so
mimimal as to be almost impossible; and also the concept of "Cause
and Effect". The Universe is the "effect", so there had to be a
"cause" for the Big Bang. Where there is a beginning, there is a
Beginner.
What caused the beginner?
I cannot even start to suppose what it could be that caused a beginner. But
that does not solve the issue of "how do you have a beginning without a
beginner", or "how do you have effect without cause". Not knowing what
could have created a beginner does not negate the fact that there might need
to be a force behind the creation of this Universe.
The problem with those who demand a cause is that they're stuck in this
universe with the present laws of physics. They every one of them
ignore the fact that the laws of physics in this universe are part of
the fabric of the universe and did not exist before the universe
existed. If there were no laws prior to this universe, or no laws like
the present ones, how can anyone possibly claim what could or could not
happen? If there was literally nothing prior to the universe
beginning, then what was there to stop literally anything happening?
Literally nothing, that's what.
Neither does their cause argument make logcial sense. If a god could
have arisen without cause, or could have existed forever, then so, too,
could the universe (in some form or another). To make the claim for
the one and deny it for the other is illogical and has no support (at
least none that any advocator of this "argument" has ever tried to
advance to my knowledge).
Budikka
Budikka
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
22 Jun 2005 01:24:55 PM |
|
|
Budikka666 wrote:
El Bleacho wrote:
Mike Painter wrote:
El Bleacho wrote:
I can answer from my perspective, but who knows what that other
guy is thinking. IMHO, there was some form of Intelligent Design
at two points. One is the creation of the Universe itself. I have
a lot of reasons I believe this to be true, but the most obvious
are that the Universe is so complex that the odds of it randomly
happening are so mimimal as to be almost impossible; and also the
concept of "Cause and Effect". The Universe is the "effect", so
there had to be a "cause" for the Big Bang. Where there is a
beginning, there is a Beginner.
What caused the beginner?
I cannot even start to suppose what it could be that caused a
beginner. But that does not solve the issue of "how do you have a
beginning without a beginner", or "how do you have effect without
cause". Not knowing what could have created a beginner does not
negate the fact that there might need to be a force behind the
creation of this Universe.
The problem with those who demand a cause is that they're stuck in
this universe with the present laws of physics. They every one of
them ignore the fact that the laws of physics in this universe are
part of the fabric of the universe and did not exist before the
universe existed. If there were no laws prior to this universe, or
no laws like the present ones, how can anyone possibly claim what
could or could not happen? If there was literally nothing prior to
the universe beginning, then what was there to stop literally
anything happening? Literally nothing, that's what.
Neither does their cause argument make logcial sense. If a god could
have arisen without cause, or could have existed forever, then so,
too, could the universe (in some form or another). To make the claim
for the one and deny it for the other is illogical and has no support
(at least none that any advocator of this "argument" has ever tried to
advance to my knowledge).
Which is why I always aks teh fundy parrots what comes next aftere they
spout the "uncaused cause" argument.
No one has ever even attempted a response.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "El Bleacho" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
16 Jun 2005 12:02:47 PM |
|
|
duke wrote:
Mike, I hate to disagree with you, but the Bible makes it quite clear
that a significant portion of the water causing the flood came from
above the atmosphere
Nope, Gen 7:11 clearly says "beneath the earth" burst open.
Completely false. The passage is:
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the
seventeenth day of the month, on the same day were all the fountains of the
great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."
The fountains of the "great deep" are the oceans. The "windows of heaven
were opened" is meant to say the rains came. The oceans were "broken up"
means they were destroyed. The whole planet was said to be covered by
water, so there were no longer any oceans. The whole world was said to be
one big ocean.
Why 2-5 miles deep? And a few inches of water above sunlight bound
plants would be dead and gone after a few weeks.
A few inches of water is not going to cover every continent. Hell, it's
not going to cover *ANY* continent.
Dud, God created the laws of physics. You're out of your league.
BWHAHHAHAHA. You saying that God changes the laws of physics whenever the
mood suits him? You are funny - you espouse something called "Flood
Geology" and have not read any of the books written by the great theists of
the world that espouse it. Your views are uninformed and without context,
in that they do not conform even remotely to the world's famous theists
views on the same subject. I have read the world of Dr. John Witcomb,
Philip Gosse, and H M Morris. If you knew anything, anything at all; you
would know about the Evolution Protest Movement, and the most famous
recent-creation book ever written; called "The Genesis Flood". That book
was written by Dr. Witcomb and Dr. Morris in 1961.
--
_____________________
I am hung like Einstein;
and as smart as a horse!
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
16 Jun 2005 05:42:43 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:02:47 GMT, "El Bleacho" <ElBleacho@Clorox.gov> wrote:
Nope, Gen 7:11 clearly says "beneath the earth" burst open.
Completely false. The passage is:
"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the
seventeenth day of the month, on the same day were all the fountains of the
great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."
Well, well, that all depends on which translation you use. After all, "beneath
the earth burst open" and "fountains of the great deep broken open" say the say
thing.
Genesis 7:11 (New International Version)
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the
second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the
floodgates of the heavens were opened.
'Genesis 7:11' not found for version "Wycliffe New Testament"
Now that's an interesting one.
My Catholic Study Bible, St Jerome Edition says: "When Noah was 600 years old,
on the 17th day of the second month, all the outlets of the vast body of water
beneath the earth burst open, all the floodgates of the sky were opened."
The fountains of the "great deep" are the oceans.
Nope, it said springs, etc - springs are from below.
The "windows of heaven
were opened" is meant to say the rains came. The oceans were "broken up"
means they were destroyed.
Great deep burst forth. Keep trying.
The whole planet was said to be covered by
water, so there were no longer any oceans. The whole world was said to be
one big ocean.
So how did Noah build his boat if everything was already flooded.
Why 2-5 miles deep? And a few inches of water above sunlight bound
plants would be dead and gone after a few weeks.
A few inches of water is not going to cover every continent. Hell, it's
not going to cover *ANY* continent.
Tsk, little dude, do you really think Mt Everest was never just a speed bump?
Dud, God created the laws of physics. You're out of your league.
BWHAHHAHAHA. You saying that God changes the laws of physics whenever the
mood suits him?
No, but could be. The biblical flood fits in perfectly with the earlier
solidification and formation and of the earth's surface being very featureless
and the continents all connected.
You atheists are desperate, but you're all wrong because you declare conditions
not confirmed to exist.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Budikka666" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
16 Jun 2005 06:43:19 PM |
|
|
PUKE LIED:
Funny, but when I deleted everything that wasn't supported by evidence
(as opposed to mythic quotes), and deleted everything that broke the
rules Earl agreed to, there wasn't anything left to respond to! No
surprises there.
Any possibility you're going to honor what you requested and what we
agreed upon, Earl?
Are we going to actually discuss the subject line of god that you asked
for and I supplied?
Here it is again Earl the challenge you've run from (counting your
messages in this thread) some **SEVENTY TIMES NOW**. The subject line
of god that you asked for. The opening message of this thread that
you've avoided like the plague because you know you;re going to be
whipped seven ways from sundown if you so much as set one foot on this
path:
Let's discuss the issue of what God thinks of libel. Let's discuss
what God would think of someone who made false accusations of
plagiarism and let's discuss what God might think would constitute
what's legally required to substantiate true accusations.
If you're really not up for it, Earl, I'll have my lawyer contact you.
Do you still live at: 12074 Newcastle Ave, Baton Rouge, LA 70816-8989?
If you can honestly just confirm that address, I'll have my lawyer
contact you and we can discuss this in a court of law. Are you up for
it, Earl?
Budikka
.
|
|
|
| User: "Tom" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
16 Jun 2005 07:26:51 PM |
|
|
"Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1118965399.236817.60570@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
PUKE LIED:
Funny, but when I deleted everything that wasn't supported by evidence
(as opposed to mythic quotes), and deleted everything that broke the
rules Earl agreed to, there wasn't anything left to respond to! No
surprises there.
Any possibility you're going to honor what you requested and what we
agreed upon, Earl?
Are we going to actually discuss the subject line of god that you asked
for and I supplied?
Here it is again Earl the challenge you've run from (counting your
messages in this thread) some **SEVENTY TIMES NOW**. The subject line
of god that you asked for. The opening message of this thread that
you've avoided like the plague because you know you;re going to be
whipped seven ways from sundown if you so much as set one foot on this
path:
Let's discuss the issue of what God thinks of libel. Let's discuss
what God would think of someone who made false accusations of
plagiarism and let's discuss what God might think would constitute
what's legally required to substantiate true accusations.
If you're really not up for it, Earl, I'll have my lawyer contact you.
Do you still live at: 12074 Newcastle Ave, Baton Rouge, LA 70816-8989?
If you can honestly just confirm that address, I'll have my lawyer
contact you and we can discuss this in a court of law. Are you up for
it, Earl?
Budikka
Puke lied??? Of course Puke lied, he's posting isn't he :-)))?
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "ebataitis" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
24 Jun 2005 02:31:06 PM |
|
|
duke wrote:
(snip)
Well, well, that all depends on which translation you use. After all, "beneath
the earth burst open" and "fountains of the great deep broken open" say the say
thing.
No they do *not*. They are different. They may *mean* something similar,
but they *DO NOT* say the same thing. That's why the words each uses is
different.
"It is blue" and "It is blue" say the same thing.
"It is blue" and "It is navy" may mean something similar but they are
different.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
16 Jun 2005 04:36:47 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 23:39:53 +0000 (UTC), (Cary
Kittrell) wrote:
Unless you want to pile the water REALLY deep -- let's say several hundred
miles or so -- the change would be insignificant.
My point exactly.
Adding something
trivial, like a few of miles of water, wouldn't result in surface
pressures suddenly becoming what they now are a few miles above
the current surface of the earth; the change in gravitational
acceleration is tiny.
-- cary
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Douglas Berry" |
|
| Title: Re: Earl J. Weber Running Scared!! |
15 Jun 2005 11:13:53 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:05:26 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> drained
his beer, leaned back in the alt.atheism beanbag and drunkenly
proclaimed the following
Oh, shoot - I accidentally deleted berry's increase in pressure.
To dberry, as the waters rose, the gravitational pull on the air would decrease
due to distance to the earth's center. Now what?
Guess you failed physics as well.
Duke, you want to know the difference in gravity between Bad Water
Flats, Death Valley (-282 feet below sea level) and the top of Mt.
Everest (29,002 feet)? Less than .001% You have to get up to about
60 miles for a significant drop in percveived gravity.
And the air's mass doesn't chage, genius. That column of moisture
laden air is still going to mass a great deal more than the drier air
we're used to today. You pre-Flood world would resemble Venus.
--
Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
.
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
