| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Brett Aubrey" |
| Date: |
13 Jan 2006 04:10:25 PM |
| Object: |
Earlier Extents of Atheism? |
In a couple of threads over at talk.origins, it was stated that belief in
deity(ies) within past cultures was "universal" (in one poster's case) and
"majority behaviour" (in another poster's case), but neither poster had a
cite for these assertions. In The Descent of Man, Darwin states that
universal belief is/was not the case - that there are whole languages that
did not have a word for even the concept of "God(s)". Specifically, he
states:
"There is no evidence that man was aboriginally endowed with the
ennobling belief in the existence of an Omnipotent God. On the
contrary there is ample evidence, derived not from hasty travellers,
but from men who have long resided with savages, that numerous
races have existed, and still exist, who have no idea of one or more
gods, and who have no words in their languages to express such an
idea. (74. See an excellent article on this subject by the Rev. F.W.
Farrar, in the 'Anthropological Review,' Aug. 1864, p. ccxvii. For
further facts see Sir J. Lubbock, 'Prehistoric Times,' 2nd edit., 1869,
p. 564; and especially the chapters on Religion in his 'Origin of
Civilisation,' 1870.)"
So I'm wondering, *do we know how prevalent - say in terms of percentages -
atheism was in times past?* (The answer could get complex, given the number
of societies over the past 130 millennia, but ballpark figures or a cite to
an online source would likely suffice. And answers will also get pretty
sketchy back beyond 500 or so years - I know there'll be limits as to how
far back this information can even be available for various societies, but I
don't know what those limits are.)
My guess, FWIW, is that with whole societies being atheistic (as per Darwin,
above), atheism also existed in generally theistic societies (like today),
but that maybe atheism was somewhat more prevalent than in today's
societies. I speculate this to be the case since there was greater
isolation in populations, less education / indoctrination of religious
principles within populations (since there was less education in general
terms, no mass media or print, etc.), and I doubt there was much missionary
or similar work back before, say, a couple of thousand years.
I note one source, http://www.stnews.org/news-2442.htm, that says
"Statistics show that while atheism has captured the hearts and minds of
many Europeans, the number of theists worldwide has grown even more
dramatically, especially in Africa, Asia and South America.", but this site
gives no idea as to past theism/atheisn splits. And http://adherents.com/
gives many current stats, but few historical ones that I could find (for
interest, it estimates current world population of atheists at 8%, with
Sweden topping the national figures, at 46-85%). And at
http://kenneth.moyle.com/aa/atheism1.htm, it states that "Disbelief in God
is nothing new." and questions: "Why has atheism, until the 20th century the
bold assertion of the few, suddenly been accepted by such a large portion of
the population?" (this conflicts with my guess, of course). This site also
states: "Up until the 19th Century, much of what was considered by
contemporaries to be atheism was really more of a partial atheism or
agnosticism.". I also went through the alt.atheism FAQ at
http://www.skepticfiles.org/atheist/atheistf.htm. So there's lots of
information out there, but I'm hoping for something with a time line or
time/region lines, ideally going back more than a couple of centuries. TIA.
Brett.
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| User: "Witziges Rätsel" |
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| Title: Re: Earlier Extents of Atheism? |
13 Jan 2006 04:45:51 PM |
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In a couple of threads over at talk.origins, it was stated that belief in
deity(ies) within past cultures was "universal" (in one poster's case) and
"majority behaviour" (in another poster's case), but neither poster had a
cite for these assertions. In The Descent of Man, Darwin states that
universal belief is/was not the case - that there are whole languages that
did not have a word for even the concept of "God(s)". Specifically, he
states:
"There is no evidence that man was aboriginally endowed with the
ennobling belief in the existence of an Omnipotent God. On the
contrary there is ample evidence, derived not from hasty travellers,
but from men who have long resided with savages, that numerous
races have existed, and still exist, who have no idea of one or more
gods, and who have no words in their languages to express such an
idea. (74. See an excellent article on this subject by the Rev. F.W.
Farrar, in the 'Anthropological Review,' Aug. 1864, p. ccxvii. For
further facts see Sir J. Lubbock, 'Prehistoric Times,' 2nd edit., 1869,
p. 564; and especially the chapters on Religion in his 'Origin of
Civilisation,' 1870.)"
As usual, a mutually agreed definition of "god" is needed here.
People of some cultures did not believe in an "omnipotent" god
(e.g. Ancient Greeks' gods seem to have had weaknesses of character
and ability.), but they did attribute events to various supernatural
forces. Perhaps belief in magic is not technically "theism", but I
think it's pretty close.
.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: Earlier Extents of Atheism? |
14 Jan 2006 04:06:35 AM |
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"Witziges Rätsel" <zer@roer.com> wrote
As usual, a mutually agreed definition of "god" is needed here.
People of some cultures did not believe in an "omnipotent" god
(e.g. Ancient Greeks' gods seem to have had weaknesses of character
and ability.), but they did attribute events to various supernatural
forces. Perhaps belief in magic is not technically "theism", but I
think it's pretty close.
I couldn't say it any better, but I'll say it just the same...
Spirits? And forget about the dead if that's too obvious, but what
of a human-like consciousness attributed to animals, plants and
even bodies of water or rocks?
Looking at a valley filled with trees & rocks and seeing thousands
of conscious beings? It's really hard to separate that out from
some sort of mysticism. And then, of course, there is the more
obvious example of the dead. Prepared burials (flowers,
dressing/painting the body, grave good) predate modern man.
It's really hard to divorce this from religion.
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| User: "Brett Aubrey" |
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| Title: Re: Earlier Extents of Atheism? |
13 Jan 2006 07:37:50 PM |
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"Witziges Rätsel" <zer@roer.com> wrote in message
news:d2702$43c82daf$3f2a6e87$7716@DIALUPUSA.NET...
In a couple of threads over at talk.origins, it was stated that belief
in
deity(ies) within past cultures was "universal" (in one poster's case)
and
"majority behaviour" (in another poster's case), but neither poster had
a
cite for these assertions. In The Descent of Man, Darwin states that
universal belief is/was not the case - that there are whole languages
that
did not have a word for even the concept of "God(s)". Specifically, he
states:
"There is no evidence that man was aboriginally endowed with the
ennobling belief in the existence of an Omnipotent God. On the
contrary there is ample evidence, derived not from hasty travellers,
but from men who have long resided with savages, that numerous
races have existed, and still exist, who have no idea of one or more
gods, and who have no words in their languages to express such an
idea. (74. See an excellent article on this subject by the Rev. F.W.
Farrar, in the 'Anthropological Review,' Aug. 1864, p. ccxvii. For
further facts see Sir J. Lubbock, 'Prehistoric Times,' 2nd edit., 1869,
p. 564; and especially the chapters on Religion in his 'Origin of
Civilisation,' 1870.)"
As usual, a mutually agreed definition of "god" is needed here.
People of some cultures did not believe in an "omnipotent" god
(e.g. Ancient Greeks' gods seem to have had weaknesses of
character and ability.), but they did attribute events to various
supernatural forces. Perhaps belief in magic is not technically
"theism", but I think it's pretty close.
OK. Same question... *do we know how prevalent - say in terms of
percentages - atheism was in times past?*...
with the following definitions... "God" is defined as a supernatual entity
capable of (and acting out) supernatural powers such as creation and/or
direction of other acts directly affecting humanity in major ways. God
probably has some interest in us and is worthy of our worship. "Atheism" is
defined as lack of belief in any and all God(s); as well as the lack of
religion. (See below.)
I know this isn't perfect, but I qualify it this way, because this was, IMV,
the context of the previous posts mentioned in my opening sentence.
Therefore God, Odin, Zeus, various "rain gods" and Tloque Nahuaque would be
included, but other "magical" entities - including, for example, Santa, the
Tooth Fairy, magic itself (other than divine magic/direction, if you will)
and ghosts - would not be included (I'd also likely include animal spirits
in the "not-included" portion.) This still may not be defined well enough
for you, but I hope that you get the context. I agree that belief in magic
is pretty close, but ISTM that there is enough separation that you might
catch my drift - that is, I suspect the original posters would be able to
agree with this separation.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Earlier Extents of Atheism? |
13 Jan 2006 06:13:18 PM |
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Brett Aubrey wrote:
In a couple of threads over at talk.origins, it was stated that belief
in deity(ies) within past cultures was "universal" (in one poster's
case) and "majority behaviour" (in another poster's case), but neither
poster had a
cite for these assertions. In The Descent of Man, Darwin states that
universal belief is/was not the case - that there are whole languages
that
did not have a word for even the concept of "God(s)". Specifically, he
states:
A long and contensious subject. We really do not have a huge
amount of writing from the ancient past, and many people
did not have their opinions written down for us.
I suspect a lot of people did not believe much in gods.
There are a few sceptical writings, Song of the Harper
and ancient Egyptian work, has soem rather skeptical
words.
The OT records a few cracks at Atheists, The "fool has said
in his heart there is no god". (The wise man proclaims it
to the world).
So Atheists were known to 7th century Jewish writers.
The ancient Greeks outlawed Atheism, sign that they had
what they felt was an atheist problem.
Ancient explorers in the world did find people that
had no religion, early observers of the Bushman of
Southern Africa noted they were singularly uninterested
in religions and had none.
"There is no evidence that man was aboriginally endowed with the
ennobling belief in the existence of an Omnipotent God. On the
contrary there is ample evidence, derived not from hasty travellers,
but from men who have long resided with savages, that numerous
races have existed, and still exist, who have no idea of one or more
gods, and who have no words in their languages to express such an
idea. (74. See an excellent article on this subject by the Rev.
F.W.
Farrar, in the 'Anthropological Review,' Aug. 1864, p. ccxvii. For
further facts see Sir J. Lubbock, 'Prehistoric Times,' 2nd edit.,
1869, p. 564; and especially the chapters on Religion in his 'Origin
of Civilisation,' 1870.)"
Many cultures had no concept of powerful, omnipotent gods.
They were like many Roman and Greeks, believers in nature gods.
Concepts of god can vary widely.
So I'm wondering, *do we know how prevalent - say in terms of
percentages -
atheism was in times past?* (The answer could get complex, given the
number of societies over the past 130 millennia, but ballpark figures
or a cite to
an online source would likely suffice. And answers will also get
pretty sketchy back beyond 500 or so years - I know there'll be limits
as to how far back this information can even be available for various
societies, but I don't know what those limits are.)
I would suspect it some places and times it became
great. After WWI and WWII, belief in urope has dropped.
I am sure that in bad times in the past, people abandoned their
gods and unbelief was pretty common. Again, when it comes to
religion, most religious believers did the writing.
Atheistic Buddhism spread in large part as a reaction
to crude and cruel Hindism of Buddha's time.
Early Islamic literture has stated that there were
unbelievers in Islam, at best nominal Moslems, who were battled
by the orthodox Islamists who also battled heretics.
There were a few disillusioned Indian kingdoms who
lost their religion battling Islam. They were eventually
swept away by Moslem invasions.
In the Middle Ages, it was noted that some out and out
Atheistic scholars existed, after the Albigensian crusades,
the Inquisition was founded to root out heresy.
Open Atheism became dangerous, but the quietly Atheistic
peasant could keep quiet and get away with it. It just
went underground. The way Atheism swept across France in the
Revolutionary era shows people do abandon religion oppressed enough
by it. It just isn't necessarily successful or noted
before that.
My guess, FWIW, is that with whole societies being atheistic (as per
Darwin, above), atheism also existed in generally theistic societies
(like today), but that maybe atheism was somewhat more prevalent than
in today's
societies. I speculate this to be the case since there was greater
isolation in populations, less education / indoctrination of religious
principles within populations (since there was less education in
general terms, no mass media or print, etc.), and I doubt there was
much missionary or similar work back before, say, a couple of thousand
years.
There was in a sense. Many Canaanite religions became
popular in Egypt, and the bible shows that early Israelite
priests had a long hard fight themselves against other religions,
including Baal.
Ancient Jews were so successful and aggressive about proselytization
some Roman provinces had to ban that.
I note one source, http://www.stnews.org/news-2442.htm, that says
"Statistics show that while atheism has captured the hearts and minds
of many Europeans, the number of theists worldwide has grown even more
dramatically, especially in Africa, Asia and South America.", but this
site
gives no idea as to past theism/atheisn splits.
Go back to the French revolution and later to
the nationalization of Italy and Germany.
Czechlosavakia had long had a corrupt Catholic Church imposed on them by
the Austrio-Hungarian empire but by WWI millions had finally abandoned
that when it became possible.
The Czechs had large and active Atheist organizations, and was
essentially secular until Hitler took them over and in agreement with
the RCC under the concordance signed with them, reimposed Catholicism.
RCC corruption lead to the Reformation and religous wars. Many abandoned
religion after that, leading to the the crisis of Atheism and religious
skepticism, especially among the educated. That lead to among other
things, Deism.
The United States and France were shocking to the world, secular nations.
The wars of Napolean were as much about religion as anything else.
The wars of Bolivar in South America were pointedly against religion
and the RCC.
Garibaldi and other Italian patriots that created Italy as a modern
state from three medieval states were essentially Atheist radicals.
Spain had as a reaction to the corrupt and backwards Spanish goverment
and RCC, large and active Atheist and sceptical segments of the
population that culminated in the Spanish civil wars of the 30's
that saw Hitler involved with Franco to stamp out.
And
http://adherents.com/ gives many current stats, but few historical ones
that I could find (for interest, it estimates current world population
of atheists at 8%, with
Sweden topping the national figures, at 46-85%). And at
http://kenneth.moyle.com/aa/atheism1.htm, it states that "Disbelief in
God is nothing new." and questions: "Why has atheism, until the 20th
century the bold assertion of the few, suddenly been accepted by such a
large portion of
the population?" (this conflicts with my guess, of course). This site
also states: "Up until the 19th Century, much of what was considered by
contemporaries to be atheism was really more of a partial atheism or
agnosticism.". I also went through the alt.atheism FAQ at
http://www.skepticfiles.org/atheist/atheistf.htm. So there's lots of
information out there, but I'm hoping for something with a time line or
time/region lines, ideally going back more than a couple of centuries.
TIA. Brett.
--
"A dead religion is like a dead cat -- the stiffer and
more rotten it is, the better it is as a missile weapon."
- H.G. Wells
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: Earlier Extents of Atheism? |
13 Jan 2006 06:14:15 PM |
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Brett Aubrey wrote:
In a couple of threads over at talk.origins, it was stated that belief in
deity(ies) within past cultures was "universal" (in one poster's case) and
"majority behaviour" (in another poster's case), but neither poster had a
cite for these assertions.
You might want to think about what you consider to be theism, and what
you consider to be religion....my guess is that although atheism was
quite common, a total lack of religion of some sort was rare. Religion
I consider to consist of some type of ceremonial or shamanic
recognition of some type of supernatural agent.
Maybe Pascal Boyer's book "Religion Explained" is something you should
put on your reading list?
Jim
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: Earlier Extents of Atheism? |
15 Jan 2006 03:23:11 PM |
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Remember, Christians were accused -- and convicted and executed -- on charges of
atheism, because they denied the existence of the state gods of the Roman Empire
and refused to do their patriotic duty in publicly worshipping said gods.
In short, "atheism" simply means denial of whatever deity/deities is/are
currently held in popular esteem. As such, atheism has existed everywhere that
religion has existed, as there have always been people who denied the gods.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking,
which leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy."
- Robert Anton Wilson
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