| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Tom Dickenhari" |
| Date: |
03 Feb 2005 11:06:30 AM |
| Object: |
Eden: Myth always has meaning. |
The Eden story is an account of the social change involved in the
transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, forced by increasing
population and decreasing resources.
New things start small; there was garden-scale, probably run by women,
before there was mass agriculture.
The forbidden fruit was cultivated fruit.
Agriculture required forced labour and God existed to validate the
required hierarchy.
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: Myth always has meaning. |
03 Feb 2005 04:07:24 PM |
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"Tom Dickenhari" <tomdickenhari@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b7a509c2.0502030906.47af5cfd@posting.google.com...
The Eden story is an account of the social change involved in the
transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, forced by increasing
population and decreasing resources.
New things start small; there was garden-scale, probably run by women,
before there was mass agriculture.
The forbidden fruit was cultivated fruit.
Agriculture required forced labour and God existed to validate the
required hierarchy.
How come a hierarchy is required for agriculture, any more so than a
hierarchy for anything else?
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| User: "Meteorite Debris" |
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| Title: Re: Myth always has meaning. |
03 Feb 2005 04:51:47 PM |
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On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 22:07:24 GMT the ET form known as
Ike<accordiondoc@mindspring.com> sent a radio signal across the vast
expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
"Tom Dickenhari" <tomdickenhari@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b7a509c2.0502030906.47af5cfd@posting.google.com...
The Eden story is an account of the social change involved in the
transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, forced by increasing
population and decreasing resources.
New things start small; there was garden-scale, probably run by women,
before there was mass agriculture.
The forbidden fruit was cultivated fruit.
Agriculture required forced labour and God existed to validate the
required hierarchy.
How come a hierarchy is required for agriculture, any more so than a
hierarchy for anything else?
I think the answer to that is the size of the polities needed. From
communities of less than 150 persons to city states. Hierarchy is more
likely to emerge from larger polities and those strata are less likely
to know personally, or care about those belonging to other strata.
Among hunter gatherer societies today like the San in the Kalahari
or aboriginal people in Australia hierarchy is nowhere near as
evident.
--
epicurus1*at*optusnet*dot*com*dot*au
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
Sunday: A day given over by Americans to wishing that they themselves
were dead and in Heaven, and that their neighbors were dead and in
Hell.
-Mencken
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: Myth always has meaning. |
04 Feb 2005 03:31:11 PM |
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"Meteorite Debris" <abuse@optusnet,com.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c6d4f055584960798a014@news.optusnet.com.au...
On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 22:07:24 GMT the ET form known as
Ike<accordiondoc@mindspring.com> sent a radio signal across the vast
expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
"Tom Dickenhari" <tomdickenhari@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b7a509c2.0502030906.47af5cfd@posting.google.com...
The Eden story is an account of the social change involved in the
transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, forced by increasing
population and decreasing resources.
New things start small; there was garden-scale, probably run by women,
before there was mass agriculture.
The forbidden fruit was cultivated fruit.
Agriculture required forced labour and God existed to validate the
required hierarchy.
How come a hierarchy is required for agriculture, any more so than a
hierarchy for anything else?
I think the answer to that is the size of the polities needed. From
communities of less than 150 persons to city states. Hierarchy is more
likely to emerge from larger polities and those strata are less likely
to know personally, or care about those belonging to other strata.
Among hunter gatherer societies today like the San in the Kalahari
or aboriginal people in Australia hierarchy is nowhere near as
evident.
Not as evident, does that make it less real?
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| User: "Meteorite Debris" |
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| Title: Re: Myth always has meaning. |
04 Feb 2005 06:35:34 PM |
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On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 21:31:11 GMT the ET form known as
Ike<accordiondoc@mindspring.com> sent a radio signal across the vast
expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
"Meteorite Debris" <abuse@optusnet,com.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c6d4f055584960798a014@news.optusnet.com.au...
On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 22:07:24 GMT the ET form known as
Ike<accordiondoc@mindspring.com> sent a radio signal across the vast
expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
"Tom Dickenhari" <tomdickenhari@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b7a509c2.0502030906.47af5cfd@posting.google.com...
The Eden story is an account of the social change involved in the
transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, forced by increasing
population and decreasing resources.
New things start small; there was garden-scale, probably run by women,
before there was mass agriculture.
The forbidden fruit was cultivated fruit.
Agriculture required forced labour and God existed to validate the
required hierarchy.
How come a hierarchy is required for agriculture, any more so than a
hierarchy for anything else?
I think the answer to that is the size of the polities needed. From
communities of less than 150 persons to city states. Hierarchy is more
likely to emerge from larger polities and those strata are less likely
to know personally, or care about those belonging to other strata.
Among hunter gatherer societies today like the San in the Kalahari
or aboriginal people in Australia hierarchy is nowhere near as
evident.
Not as evident, does that make it less real?
Maybe not less real but with less potential for abuse to arise from
such status. From slight differences in access to necessities in
indigenous hunter gatherer societies to enormous differences of orders
of magnitude in agricultural societies.
--
epicurus1*at*optusnet*dot*com*dot*au
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
Sunday: A day given over by Americans to wishing that they themselves
were dead and in Heaven, and that their neighbors were dead and in
Hell.
-Mencken
.
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: Myth always has meaning. |
05 Feb 2005 10:37:38 AM |
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"Meteorite Debris" <abuse@optusnet,com.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c6eb8d890a6fa4b98a019@news.optusnet.com.au...
On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 21:31:11 GMT the ET form known as
Ike<accordiondoc@mindspring.com> sent a radio signal across the vast
expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
"Meteorite Debris" <abuse@optusnet,com.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c6d4f055584960798a014@news.optusnet.com.au...
On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 22:07:24 GMT the ET form known as
Ike<accordiondoc@mindspring.com> sent a radio signal across the vast
expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
"Tom Dickenhari" <tomdickenhari@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b7a509c2.0502030906.47af5cfd@posting.google.com...
The Eden story is an account of the social change involved in the
transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, forced by
increasing
population and decreasing resources.
New things start small; there was garden-scale, probably run by
women,
before there was mass agriculture.
The forbidden fruit was cultivated fruit.
Agriculture required forced labour and God existed to validate the
required hierarchy.
How come a hierarchy is required for agriculture, any more so than a
hierarchy for anything else?
I think the answer to that is the size of the polities needed. From
communities of less than 150 persons to city states. Hierarchy is more
likely to emerge from larger polities and those strata are less likely
to know personally, or care about those belonging to other strata.
Among hunter gatherer societies today like the San in the Kalahari
or aboriginal people in Australia hierarchy is nowhere near as
evident.
Not as evident, does that make it less real?
Maybe not less real but with less potential for abuse to arise from
such status. From slight differences in access to necessities in
indigenous hunter gatherer societies to enormous differences of orders
of magnitude in agricultural societies.
You have implied a definition of abuse based on criticism of more complex
systems which is not explicitly stated.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Myth always has meaning. |
03 Feb 2005 06:13:52 PM |
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On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 22:07:24 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
said in alt.atheism:
How come a hierarchy is required for agriculture, any more so than a
hierarchy for anything else?
A hierarchy was required for hunting - none was needed for the
beginnings of agriculture. Not until people began gathering into
villages.
--
"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is freedom. Atheism is
human concern, and intellectual honesty to a degree that the religious mind
cannot begin to understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is not an
old religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact it is not, and
never has been, a religion at all. The definition of Atheism is magnificent in
its simplicity: Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity in a world of
madness."
[Atheism: An Affirmative View, by Emmett F. Fields]
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "Raptor514" |
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| Title: Re: Myth always has meaning. |
03 Feb 2005 02:50:09 PM |
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"Tom Dickenhari" <tomdickenhari@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b7a509c2.0502030906.47af5cfd@posting.google.com...
The Eden story is an account of the social change involved in the
transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, forced by increasing
population and decreasing resources.
New things start small; there was garden-scale, probably run by women,
before there was mass agriculture.
The forbidden fruit was cultivated fruit.
Agriculture required forced labour and God existed to validate the
required hierarchy.
That's a good hypothesis that's been kicked around for a long, long time.
Too bad there's no way to verify such things, eh?
The lack of testability prevents this one from even rising to the level of a
'theory.'
Raptor514
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Myth always has meaning. |
03 Feb 2005 04:36:11 PM |
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On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 20:50:09 GMT, "Raptor514" <Raptor514@SPAMSUCKS.com> wrote:
"Tom Dickenhari" <tomdickenhari@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b7a509c2.0502030906.47af5cfd@posting.google.com...
The Eden story is an account of the social change involved in the
transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, forced by increasing
population and decreasing resources.
New things start small; there was garden-scale, probably run by women,
before there was mass agriculture.
The forbidden fruit was cultivated fruit.
Agriculture required forced labour and God existed to validate the
required hierarchy.
That's a good hypothesis that's been kicked around for a long, long time.
Too bad there's no way to verify such things, eh?
The lack of testability prevents this one from even rising to the level of a
'theory.'
And this comment is only good for a laugh to start with. Really - cultivated
fruit. Good grief.
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "Raptor514" |
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| Title: Re: Myth always has meaning. |
04 Feb 2005 01:55:28 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:tp9501l7qp475mltg8auhe9h54cditcn7t@4ax.com...
On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 20:50:09 GMT, "Raptor514" <Raptor514@SPAMSUCKS.com>
wrote:
"Tom Dickenhari" <tomdickenhari@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b7a509c2.0502030906.47af5cfd@posting.google.com...
The Eden story is an account of the social change involved in the
transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, forced by increasing
population and decreasing resources.
New things start small; there was garden-scale, probably run by women,
before there was mass agriculture.
The forbidden fruit was cultivated fruit.
Agriculture required forced labour and God existed to validate the
required hierarchy.
That's a good hypothesis that's been kicked around for a long, long time.
Too bad there's no way to verify such things, eh?
The lack of testability prevents this one from even rising to the level
of a
'theory.'
And this comment is only good for a laugh to start with. Really -
cultivated
fruit. Good grief.
Are you referring to the 'lack of testability' comment or the 'cultivated
fruit' comment in the prior post?
Raptor514
duke
*****
Matthew 22
14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
*****
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| User: "ScotMc" |
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| Title: Re: Myth always has meaning. |
04 Feb 2005 05:56:14 AM |
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"Tom Dickenhari" <tomdickenhari@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b7a509c2.0502030906.47af5cfd@posting.google.com...
The Eden story is an account of the social change involved in the
transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, forced by increasing
population and decreasing resources.
New things start small; there was garden-scale, probably run by women,
before there was mass agriculture.
The forbidden fruit was cultivated fruit.
Agriculture required forced labour and God existed to validate the
required hierarchy.
This demonstrates the greatness of the Bible: It can be interpreted to
mean any damn thing you want it to mean.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Myth always has meaning. |
03 Feb 2005 11:14:49 AM |
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"Tom Dickenhari" <tomdickenhari@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b7a509c2.0502030906.47af5cfd@posting.google.com...
The Eden story is an account of the social change involved in the
transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, forced by increasing
population and decreasing resources.
New things start small; there was garden-scale, probably run by women,
before there was mass agriculture.
The forbidden fruit was cultivated fruit.
Agriculture required forced labour and God existed to validate the
required hierarchy.
Uh huh. Interesting interpretation. What makes you believe it is valid?
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "Meteorite Debris" |
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| Title: Re: Myth always has meaning. |
03 Feb 2005 04:44:34 PM |
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On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:14:49 -0500 the ET form known as
Robibnikoff<witchypoo@broomstick.com> sent a radio signal across the
vast expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
"Tom Dickenhari" <tomdickenhari@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:b7a509c2.0502030906.47af5cfd@posting.google.com...
The Eden story is an account of the social change involved in the
transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, forced by increasing
population and decreasing resources.
New things start small; there was garden-scale, probably run by women,
before there was mass agriculture.
The forbidden fruit was cultivated fruit.
Agriculture required forced labour and God existed to validate the
required hierarchy.
Uh huh. Interesting interpretation. What makes you believe it is valid?
I've heard that interpretation from several prehistorians. They base
that on the lower life expectancy, less varied diet, and shorter
heights of skeletons from agricultural societies compared to hunter
gatherers societies. It wasn't until the 19th century that health
standards exceeded those of hunter gatherers.
Agriculture is hard work. Hunter gatherers typically worked only for
15-20 hours a week. The remainder of their time taken up with music,
story telling and general mutual social grooming. It is easier to
gather food from a forest than to first grow it or to hunt an animal
than having to care for it for years before eating it. You internalise
into the society as a production costs that which was previously a
free gift of nature.
The move to agriculture is thought to have been in response to severe
environmental stress, not freely chosen. A choice between two options,
both of which were of less value than the preexisting status quo.
Death or hard work rewarded by a less varied diet, poorer health and a
shorter life. Toil in the fields in Genesis is implied as something
unpleasant and the Garden of Eden would be comparable to the more
carefree hunter gatherer existence.
But once humans were into agriculture there could be no turning back.
The world supported 5-10 million hunter gatherers but agriculture led
to a population increase as more and more of nature was given over to
human needs. Humans were no longer taking a part of nature as just one
part of it but were making the environment so they could harvest the
maximum from it.
--
epicurus1*at*optusnet*dot*com*dot*au
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
Sunday: A day given over by Americans to wishing that they themselves
were dead and in Heaven, and that their neighbors were dead and in
Hell.
-Mencken
.
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| User: "Witziges Rätsel" |
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| Title: Re: Myth always has meaning. |
03 Feb 2005 04:07:08 PM |
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The Eden story is an account of the social change involved in the
transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, forced by increasing
population and decreasing resources.
New things start small; there was garden-scale, probably run by women,
before there was mass agriculture.
The forbidden fruit was cultivated fruit.
Agriculture required forced labour and God existed to validate the
required hierarchy.
Myths do not always have meaning. People do often have
vivid imaginations.
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: Myth always has meaning. |
03 Feb 2005 04:29:09 PM |
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Witziges Rätsel wrote:
The Eden story is an account of the social change involved in the
transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, forced by increasing
population and decreasing resources.
New things start small; there was garden-scale, probably run by women,
before there was mass agriculture.
The forbidden fruit was cultivated fruit.
Agriculture required forced labour and God existed to validate the
required hierarchy.
Myths do not always have meaning. People do often have
vivid imaginations.
And the liberal use of mind altering drugs does not hurt matters either.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
A.A #1143 PLONKED by Bob
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Eden: Myth always has meaning. |
03 Feb 2005 06:12:47 PM |
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On 3 Feb 2005 09:06:30 -0800, (Tom
Dickenhari) said in alt.atheism:
The Eden story is an account of the social change involved in the
transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, forced by increasing
population and decreasing resources.
The increasing population was caused by the change to agriculture, not
the other way around.
New things start small; there was garden-scale, probably run by women,
before there was mass agriculture.
Agriculture probably started to ensure a supply of grass seed with
which to make beer. (Yes, beer is older than bread.)
The forbidden fruit was cultivated fruit.
The forbidden fruit of the OT is knowledge.
Agriculture required forced labour
Not at the beginning.
--
"A truly unselfish act would be a Christian volunteering to have his soul take your
soul's place in hell, so yours could go to Heaven. Don't hold your breath."
- John Popelish
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: Eden: Myth always has meaning. |
03 Feb 2005 05:24:41 PM |
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on 03 Feb 2005 in alt.atheism, Tom Dickenhari dropped trou, farted,
whirled, then shouted:
The Eden story is an account of the social change involved in the
transition from hunter-gatherer to agriculture, forced by increasing
population and decreasing resources.
One of the characters in the story is a talking snake. Where does this fit
in?
New things start small; there was garden-scale, probably run by women,
before there was mass agriculture.
The forbidden fruit was cultivated fruit.
Who cultivated it? The bible says it just there, so it must have been
magicked into existence.
Agriculture required forced labour and God existed to validate the
required hierarchy.
So now god is a union-man?
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
______________
Why is it that most of the people who are against abortion are the kind of
people you wouldn't want to ***** in the first place?
--George Carlin
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