| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Bryan with a Y" |
| Date: |
10 Feb 2005 11:24:17 AM |
| Object: |
Egyptian Slavery |
Hey all,
I was wondering if you could settle an argument for me. Could you tell
me whether the slavery of the Hebrews in Egypt really happened or not,
and point me to some good archaeological evidence one way or the
other? I've done a Google search, but it was impossible to separate
the real archaeological evidence from the made up stuff posted by
people with axes to grind, so I'm no more enlightened than I used to
be.
--
Bryan
.
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| User: "Tock" |
|
| Title: Re: Egyptian Slavery |
10 Feb 2005 03:29:16 PM |
|
|
"Bryan with a Y" <bryanspitz@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dfd0026f.0502100924.12602388@posting.google.com...
Hey all,
I was wondering if you could settle an argument for me. Could you tell
me whether the slavery of the Hebrews in Egypt really happened or not,
and point me to some good archaeological evidence one way or the
other? I've done a Google search, but it was impossible to separate
the real archaeological evidence from the made up stuff posted by
people with axes to grind, so I'm no more enlightened than I used to
be.
--
Bryan
From newspaper columnist Cecil Adams:
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_035b.html
Is there any historical basis for the events of the Jewish Exodus?
03-Mar-1981
Dear Cecil:
I don't want to get your column embroiled in biblical debates, but I must
know the answer to a question that has been bothering me for some time. I
need to know if the Egyptians record the Jewish Exodus in their ancient
historical documents. If so, does it differ from the historical accounts? Do
they record a "Moses" raised as a pharoah's son? Did they notice that they
were hit with ten plagues? Finally, do they record the destruction of the
Egyptian army in the Red Sea? --Rufino O., Chicago
Dear Rufino:
If you're hoping for a clipping from the Egyptian News-Gazette reporting a
spate of unusual weather--e.g., partly sunny with occasional torrents of
fire--I have to disappoint you. Apart from the Old Testament and related
sources, there are only a few surviving records of any sort from the Mosaic
era, mostly in the form of inscribed stone slabs called stelae.
There's a large body of Hellenic literature dealing with Moses, but all of
it was written long after the fact and was considerably embroidered in the
process. One stela from the reign of Merneptah (1235-1227 BC, thought to be
roughly the time of Exodus) does refer to the nomad tribe of Israel, but
claims to have destroyed it. Plainly the war correspondence of the time was
no more reliable than that of the present era.
Despite the lack of primary source material, there have been many efforts
over the years to relate biblical places and events to their historical
counterparts, with mixed success. To this day there remains wide
disagreement as to the precise identity of such basic landmarks as the Sea
of Reeds (it certainly wasn't the Red Sea) and Mount Sinai.
One school of thought holds that Moses cunningly led his people across the
Gulf of Suez at ebb tide, then watched as the water rose to its customary
six and a half feet and drowned the pursuing Egyptians. This hypothesis
fails to account for the mighty wind that supposedly parted the waters to
begin with.
Another theory has it that the Israelites crossed Lake Subonis, which is (or
was) separated from the Mediterranean by a narrow isthmus. The surrounding
land is swampy and treacherous and the isthmus itself is frequently
submerged during storms; it's easy to imagine an appropriate scenario.
Of course, the fact that there is no historical evidence for the existence
of Moses or the ten plagues doesn't necessarily mean they were purely
mythical. There's little historical evidence to establish the existence of
anybody from the period, except for those who happened to be head honcho at
some point.
On the other hand, it seems likely that much of the detail of the biblical
account was borrowed from Egyptian sources. The name "Moses" apparently
derives from the common Egyptian suffix -mose, "born of," as in Thut-mose,
"born of the god Thut." The Old Testament claim that the name comes from the
Hebrew mashah is thought to be wishful thinking. The story of the infant
Moses's rescue from the canebrake, interestingly, parallels the Egyptian
legend of the goddess Isis, who hid her son Horus in a delta papyrus thicket
to protect him from some nasty fate.
The ten plagues described in the biblical account--lice, pestilence,
locusts, boils, and so on--are all commonplace features of Egyptian life.
The first plague, for instance, when Moses turns the waters of the Nile to
blood, most likely recalls the fact that the Nile turns red during the
spring floods due to floating microorganisms. A simple explanation of the
plagues, then, is Moses' willingness to take credit for the routine
disasters of the day. No wonder the Israelites wanted out.
--CECIL ADAMS
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
|
| Title: Re: Egyptian Slavery |
10 Feb 2005 12:23:59 PM |
|
|
Bryan with a Y wrote:
Hey all,
I was wondering if you could settle an argument for me. Could you tell
me whether the slavery of the Hebrews in Egypt really happened or not,
and point me to some good archaeological evidence one way or the
other?
There is absolutely no historical or archaeological evidence that any of
the Biblical events from the famine that brought Israel and his family in
to Egypt to the "conquest" of Canaan ever took place.
The Egyptians were neurotic about their records. Even with their tendency
to erase names and events, written accounts continued to exist to the
modern day. There is NO mention of an entire ethnic group kept enslaved,
there is NO mention of the plagues, there is NO mention of anything that
resembles the Exodus.
The closest we find is a Semitic group of people called the Hyksos. They
brought with them the wheel, the chariot, composite bows and the knowledge
of how to make and use bronze weapons. They slowly immigrated to the Nile
Delta, eventually gaining enough strength and power to wrest political
control over the Delta and create their own pharaonic kingdom (the 15th
Dynasty *), which lasted for about 100 years. When the Egyptians reunified
the Nile Valley and Delta under a single government, the Hyksos and other
foreigners were either put to death or exiled. It is not unreasonable that
they found their way to Canann, where other Semitic peoples lived, and
brought with them the tales that would latter become the basis of the
Exodus stories.
* During this Second Intermediary Period, Egypt was essentially several
small kingdoms. Ancient historians counted the ruling houses of these
small kingdoms to be pharaonic dynasties. Because of this, the 13th
Dynasty was the last in the Middle Kingdom to rule all of Egypt, and the
18th Dynasty established the New Kingdom a century latter. The 14th, 15th,
16th and 17th Dynasties all refer to these smaller kingdoms.
I've done a Google search, but it was impossible to separate
the real archaeological evidence from the made up stuff posted by
people with axes to grind, so I'm no more enlightened than I used to
be.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"[T]hose who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves;
and, under the rule of a just God, cannot long retain it."
-- Pres. George W. Bush, Hypocrite, his inauguration speech, 2005
.
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| User: "Ike" |
|
| Title: Re: Egyptian Slavery |
10 Feb 2005 05:48:11 PM |
|
|
"Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
news:420BA6BF.4921E9D@serv.net...
Bryan with a Y wrote:
Hey all,
I was wondering if you could settle an argument for me. Could you tell
me whether the slavery of the Hebrews in Egypt really happened or not,
and point me to some good archaeological evidence one way or the
other?
There is absolutely no historical or archaeological evidence that any of
the Biblical events from the famine that brought Israel and his family in
to Egypt to the "conquest" of Canaan ever took place.
The Egyptians were neurotic about their records. Even with their tendency
to erase names and events, written accounts continued to exist to the
modern day. There is NO mention of an entire ethnic group kept enslaved,
there is NO mention of the plagues, there is NO mention of anything that
resembles the Exodus.
You expect them to admit they enslaved anyone? Maybe they had no concept of
what slavery was.
The closest we find is a Semitic group of people called the Hyksos. They
brought with them the wheel, the chariot, composite bows and the knowledge
of how to make and use bronze weapons. They slowly immigrated to the Nile
Delta, eventually gaining enough strength and power to wrest political
control over the Delta and create their own pharaonic kingdom (the 15th
Dynasty *), which lasted for about 100 years. When the Egyptians reunified
the Nile Valley and Delta under a single government, the Hyksos and other
foreigners were either put to death or exiled. It is not unreasonable that
they found their way to Canann, where other Semitic peoples lived, and
brought with them the tales that would latter become the basis of the
Exodus stories
Exactly. That's what I've been saying all along. These were the f*ing
children of Isreal.
* During this Second Intermediary Period, Egypt was essentially several
small kingdoms. Ancient historians counted the ruling houses of these
small kingdoms to be pharaonic dynasties. Because of this, the 13th
Dynasty was the last in the Middle Kingdom to rule all of Egypt, and the
18th Dynasty established the New Kingdom a century latter. The 14th, 15th,
16th and 17th Dynasties all refer to these smaller kingdoms.
I've done a Google search, but it was impossible to separate
the real archaeological evidence from the made up stuff posted by
people with axes to grind, so I'm no more enlightened than I used to
be.
So the Red Sea parted and all the Pharoah's army drowned.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"[T]hose who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves;
and, under the rule of a just God, cannot long retain it."
-- Pres. George W. Bush, Hypocrite, his inauguration speech, 2005
.
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
|
| Title: Re: Egyptian Slavery |
11 Feb 2005 08:16:05 AM |
|
|
Ike wrote:
"Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
news:420BA6BF.4921E9D@serv.net...
Bryan with a Y wrote:
Hey all,
I was wondering if you could settle an argument for me. Could you tell
me whether the slavery of the Hebrews in Egypt really happened or not,
and point me to some good archaeological evidence one way or the
other?
There is absolutely no historical or archaeological evidence that any of
the Biblical events from the famine that brought Israel and his family in
to Egypt to the "conquest" of Canaan ever took place.
The Egyptians were neurotic about their records. Even with their tendency
to erase names and events, written accounts continued to exist to the
modern day. There is NO mention of an entire ethnic group kept enslaved,
there is NO mention of the plagues, there is NO mention of anything that
resembles the Exodus.
You expect them to admit they enslaved anyone? Maybe they had no concept of
what slavery was.
The Egyptians certainly had a concept of slavery. Slavery was used extensively.
There are many records of slavery in the 4000 years or so of Egyptian history.
Entire cultures were enslaved. Neither the Hyksos nor anyone resembling the
Israelites were enslaved.
The closest we find is a Semitic group of people called the Hyksos. They
brought with them the wheel, the chariot, composite bows and the knowledge
of how to make and use bronze weapons. They slowly immigrated to the Nile
Delta, eventually gaining enough strength and power to wrest political
control over the Delta and create their own pharaonic kingdom (the 15th
Dynasty *), which lasted for about 100 years. When the Egyptians reunified
the Nile Valley and Delta under a single government, the Hyksos and other
foreigners were either put to death or exiled. It is not unreasonable that
they found their way to Canann, where other Semitic peoples lived, and
brought with them the tales that would latter become the basis of the
Exodus stories
Exactly. That's what I've been saying all along. These were the f*ing
children of Isreal.
No, they were not. Not unless:
1) The Children of Israel brought chariots, the wheel, composite bows and the
knowledge of how to make and use bronze weapons to Egypt.
2) The Children of Israel migrated in to the Nile Delta over some three hundred
years.
3) The Children of Israel used their military might to precipitate a century of
political disunion throughout Egypt.
4) The Children of Israel carved out of that political disunion their own
kingdom where THEY WERE RULERS, NOT SLAVES for most of that century.
5) The Children of Israel, after being reconquered by the Egyptians, were thrown
out of Egypt, forced to leave at spear point and sword edge, not "let go."
6) The Children of Israel left such a strongly negative impression on the
Egyptians that, for rest of their history, Egypt was very warlike, aggressively
expansionist and highly xenophobic (previous to the Second Intermediary Period,
Egypt was peaceful, content to remain within its secure borders and had more or
less embraced foreign ideas and art.)
These points are established, historical fact. These points directly contradict
the Bible. And, let us not overlook the fact that there is quite a bit known
about Hyksos culture, including their religion. By and large, the Hyksos
overlords had adopted Egyptian religion and worshipped the various gods of the
Nile Delta, including Ra, Osiris and Aset. We also know something of their
native gods, who bore a striking similarity to the standard Semitic gods of
Asherah and Tammuz. Nope, sorry: no Yahweh.
* During this Second Intermediary Period, Egypt was essentially several
small kingdoms. Ancient historians counted the ruling houses of these
small kingdoms to be pharaonic dynasties. Because of this, the 13th
Dynasty was the last in the Middle Kingdom to rule all of Egypt, and the
18th Dynasty established the New Kingdom a century latter. The 14th, 15th,
16th and 17th Dynasties all refer to these smaller kingdoms.
I've done a Google search, but it was impossible to separate
the real archaeological evidence from the made up stuff posted by
people with axes to grind, so I'm no more enlightened than I used to
be.
So the Red Sea parted and all the Pharoah's army drowned.
Yeah, and Paul Bunyan dragged his axe across the ground when he was depressed
over how chain saws made him obsolete, thus cutting the Grand Canyon.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"[T]hose who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves;
and, under the rule of a just God, cannot long retain it."
-- Pres. George W. Bush, Hypocrite, his inauguration speech, 2005
.
|
|
|
| User: "Ike" |
|
| Title: Re: Egyptian Slavery |
11 Feb 2005 03:08:35 PM |
|
|
"Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
news:420CBE25.D964B04E@serv.net...
Ike wrote:
"Gregory Gadow" <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message
news:420BA6BF.4921E9D@serv.net...
Bryan with a Y wrote:
Hey all,
I was wondering if you could settle an argument for me. Could you
tell
me whether the slavery of the Hebrews in Egypt really happened or
not,
and point me to some good archaeological evidence one way or the
other?
There is absolutely no historical or archaeological evidence that any
of
the Biblical events from the famine that brought Israel and his family
in
to Egypt to the "conquest" of Canaan ever took place.
The Egyptians were neurotic about their records. Even with their
tendency
to erase names and events, written accounts continued to exist to the
modern day. There is NO mention of an entire ethnic group kept
enslaved,
there is NO mention of the plagues, there is NO mention of anything
that
resembles the Exodus.
You expect them to admit they enslaved anyone? Maybe they had no concept
of
what slavery was.
The Egyptians certainly had a concept of slavery. Slavery was used
extensively.
There are many records of slavery in the 4000 years or so of Egyptian
history.
Entire cultures were enslaved. Neither the Hyksos nor anyone resembling
the
Israelites were enslaved.
what I'm saying is, the Romans and Greeks had a well developed concept of
what a slave was. But did the Egyptians admit to practicing it and
understand the concept of it, not just practice it by our standards. For
instance. We have illegal imm9igrants working here with less rights than
even citizen wage-slaves. Yet we don't call them slaves unless they are
working in conditions that meet our definition of involuntary.
The closest we find is a Semitic group of people called the Hyksos.
They
brought with them the wheel, the chariot, composite bows and the
knowledge
of how to make and use bronze weapons. They slowly immigrated to the
Nile
Delta, eventually gaining enough strength and power to wrest political
control over the Delta and create their own pharaonic kingdom (the
15th
Dynasty *), which lasted for about 100 years. When the Egyptians
reunified
the Nile Valley and Delta under a single government, the Hyksos and
other
foreigners were either put to death or exiled. It is not unreasonable
that
they found their way to Canann, where other Semitic peoples lived, and
brought with them the tales that would latter become the basis of the
Exodus stories
Exactly. That's what I've been saying all along. These were the f*ing
children of Isreal.
No, they were not. Not unless:
1) The Children of Israel brought chariots, the wheel, composite bows and
the
knowledge of how to make and use bronze weapons to Egypt.
2) The Children of Israel migrated in to the Nile Delta over some three
hundred
years.
3) The Children of Israel used their military might to precipitate a
century of
political disunion throughout Egypt.
4) The Children of Israel carved out of that political disunion their own
kingdom where THEY WERE RULERS, NOT SLAVES for most of that century.
By your definition they weren't slaves, yet in their folklore, they called
themselves slaves. Who are we to question that? The Nazis called themselves
persecuted by the Jews. It's all in your perspective.
5) The Children of Israel, after being reconquered by the Egyptians, were
thrown
out of Egypt, forced to leave at spear point and sword edge, not "let go."
Exactly they were involuntarily depatriated. Proof in their eyes of
persecution. It's a small step to claiming they were enslaved instead of
thrown out as persona non grata. If we kick out he illegal laborers they
will go home and their grandchildren will say they escaped from slavery.
6) The Children of Israel left such a strongly negative impression on the
Egyptians that, for rest of their history, Egypt was very warlike,
aggressively
expansionist and highly xenophobic (previous to the Second Intermediary
Period,
Egypt was peaceful, content to remain within its secure borders and had
more or
less embraced foreign ideas and art.)
America is xenophobic about people of color after liberating the negroes
from slavery.
These points are established, historical fact. These points directly
contradict
the Bible.
You can't contradict something that makes as little sense as the so-called
Bible.
And, let us not overlook the fact that there is quite a bit known
about Hyksos culture, including their religion. By and large, the Hyksos
overlords had adopted Egyptian religion and worshipped the various gods of
the
Nile Delta, including Ra, Osiris and Aset. We also know something of their
native gods, who bore a striking similarity to the standard Semitic gods
of
Asherah and Tammuz. Nope, sorry: no Yahweh.
You expect them to talk about a secret God?
* During this Second Intermediary Period, Egypt was essentially
several
small kingdoms. Ancient historians counted the ruling houses of these
small kingdoms to be pharaonic dynasties. Because of this, the 13th
Dynasty was the last in the Middle Kingdom to rule all of Egypt, and
the
18th Dynasty established the New Kingdom a century latter. The 14th,
15th,
16th and 17th Dynasties all refer to these smaller kingdoms.
I've done a Google search, but it was impossible to separate
the real archaeological evidence from the made up stuff posted by
people with axes to grind, so I'm no more enlightened than I used to
be.
So the Red Sea parted and all the Pharoah's army drowned.
Yeah, and Paul Bunyan dragged his axe across the ground when he was
depressed
over how chain saws made him obsolete, thus cutting the Grand Canyon.
Are you trying to be sarcastic? It's a well known fact that P.B. created the
Grand Canyon.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Egyptian Slavery |
11 Feb 2005 10:13:16 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:08:35 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
said in alt.atheism:
what I'm saying is, the Romans and Greeks had a well developed concept of
what a slave was. But did the Egyptians admit to practicing it and
understand the concept of it, not just practice it by our standards. For
instance. We have illegal imm9igrants working here with less rights than
even citizen wage-slaves. Yet we don't call them slaves unless they are
working in conditions that meet our definition of involuntary.
So you're saying that, unless the Egyptians used the word "slavery",
they didn't have slaves?
Or are you saying something else? You seem to be making a semantic
argument.
By your definition they weren't slaves, yet in their folklore, they called
themselves slaves.
The Hyksos and the Hebrew weren't the same people. The Hyksos, the
only ones for whom there's historical evidence in Egypt, weren't
slaves, they were one of the Egyptian dynasties. The Hebrews, for
whom there's NO historical evidence in Egypt, called themselves slaves
in Egypt (when there's no evidence that they ever *were* in Egypt).
5) The Children of Israel, after being reconquered by the Egyptians, were thrown
out of Egypt, forced to leave at spear point and sword edge, not "let go."
Exactly they were involuntarily depatriated.
As opposed to the Hebrew tale of having forced Pharaoh to let them go.
Totally different.
If we kick out he illegal laborers they
will go home and their grandchildren will say they escaped from slavery.
Not if they have even a modicum of intelligence.
These points are established, historical fact. These points directly contradict
the Bible.
You can't contradict something that makes as little sense as the so-called
Bible.
Sure you can - DUE TO the fact that it makes so little sense.
And, let us not overlook the fact that there is quite a bit known
about Hyksos culture, including their religion. By and large, the Hyksos
overlords had adopted Egyptian religion and worshipped the various gods of the
Nile Delta, including Ra, Osiris and Aset. We also know something of their
native gods, who bore a striking similarity to the standard Semitic gods of
Asherah and Tammuz. Nope, sorry: no Yahweh.
You expect them to talk about a secret God?
How "secret" is a god that appears in just about every verse of their
bible?
--
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my
contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him, the
spinal cord would fully suffice."
- Albert Einstein
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
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| User: "Ike" |
|
| Title: Re: Egyptian Slavery |
12 Feb 2005 10:24:44 AM |
|
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:470r01dsrqdee92unjdue6p8f42jrgok83@4ax.com...
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:08:35 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
said in alt.atheism:
what I'm saying is, the Romans and Greeks had a well developed concept of
what a slave was. But did the Egyptians admit to practicing it and
understand the concept of it, not just practice it by our standards. For
instance. We have illegal imm9igrants working here with less rights than
even citizen wage-slaves. Yet we don't call them slaves unless they are
working in conditions that meet our definition of involuntary.
So you're saying that, unless the Egyptians used the word "slavery",
they didn't have slaves?
Or are you saying something else? You seem to be making a semantic
argument.
No, romantic.
By your definition they weren't slaves, yet in their folklore, they
called
themselves slaves.
The Hyksos and the Hebrew weren't the same people. The Hyksos, the
only ones for whom there's historical evidence in Egypt, weren't
slaves, they were one of the Egyptian dynasties. The Hebrews, for
whom there's NO historical evidence in Egypt, called themselves slaves
in Egypt (when there's no evidence that they ever *were* in Egypt).
The Hyksos went to live in Israel. There they had Bar Mitzvahs, circumcision
of male infants, the whole works
5) The Children of Israel, after being reconquered by the Egyptians,
were thrown
out of Egypt, forced to leave at spear point and sword edge, not "let
go."
Exactly they were involuntarily depatriated.
As opposed to the Hebrew tale of having forced Pharaoh to let them go.
Totally different.
If we kick out he illegal laborers they
will go home and their grandchildren will say they escaped from slavery.
Not if they have even a modicum of intelligence.
A modicum means having your IQ.
These points are established, historical fact. These points directly
contradict
the Bible.
You can't contradict something that makes as little sense as the
so-called
Bible.
Sure you can - DUE TO the fact that it makes so little sense.
Where would you start? It's like arguing with your wife. When you start to
make sense you find the subject was switched in the middle of your last
sentence.
And, let us not overlook the fact that there is quite a bit known
about Hyksos culture, including their religion. By and large, the
Hyksos
overlords had adopted Egyptian religion and worshipped the various gods
of the
Nile Delta, including Ra, Osiris and Aset. We also know something of
their
native gods, who bore a striking similarity to the standard Semitic
gods of
Asherah and Tammuz. Nope, sorry: no Yahweh.
You expect them to talk about a secret God?
How "secret" is a god that appears in just about every verse of their
bible?
how do you know the Bible wasn't secret back then. most people couldn't
spell, let alone read. No internet, not printing press even. No
spell-checkers.
--
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my
contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him, the
spinal cord would fully suffice."
Hyperbole not to mention polemical.
- Albert Einstein
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Egyptian Slavery |
12 Feb 2005 11:14:30 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:24:44 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
said in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:470r01dsrqdee92unjdue6p8f42jrgok83@4ax.com...
The Hyksos and the Hebrew weren't the same people. The Hyksos, the
only ones for whom there's historical evidence in Egypt, weren't
slaves, they were one of the Egyptian dynasties. The Hebrews, for
whom there's NO historical evidence in Egypt, called themselves slaves
in Egypt (when there's no evidence that they ever *were* in Egypt).
The Hyksos went to live in Israel. There they had Bar Mitzvahs, circumcision
of male infants, the whole works
You're assuming that the Hyksos and the Hibarus were the same people.
The evidence says they weren't. Why would a people who ruled over at
least part of Egypt for 100 years later claim that they were slaves
there? Especially considering how the rest of the book is really just
one huge brag.
You can't contradict something that makes as little sense as the so-called
Bible.
Sure you can - DUE TO the fact that it makes so little sense.
Where would you start?
Pick a contradiction, any contradiction.
It's like arguing with your wife.
No it isn't. Fundies don't ever shut up.
When you start to make sense you find the subject was switched in the middle of your last
sentence.
Well, if you fall for that ...
And, let us not overlook the fact that there is quite a bit known
about Hyksos culture, including their religion. By and large, the Hyksos
overlords had adopted Egyptian religion and worshipped the various gods of the
Nile Delta, including Ra, Osiris and Aset. We also know something of their
native gods, who bore a striking similarity to the standard Semitic gods of
Asherah and Tammuz. Nope, sorry: no Yahweh.
You expect them to talk about a secret God?
How "secret" is a god that appears in just about every verse of their
bible?
how do you know the Bible wasn't secret back then.
The OT was written to be read - every Sabbath.
--
"Given that you exist and that you are aware of your situation and
surroundings, you will find yourself in a place which has conditions
exactly suitable to your being there. If the environment was
hostile or incompatible in some important way then you would not be
there in the first place. Therefore the suitability and seeming
perfection of your universe cannot be taken as evidence of anything
more than your existence in it."
- Edward Warren, "The naturalistic fallacy"
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: Egyptian Slavery |
13 Feb 2005 06:26:37 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:f9ot01t6st19dvnrj3dl9u3nsmp2319rpp@4ax.com...
On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 16:24:44 GMT, "Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com>
said in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:470r01dsrqdee92unjdue6p8f42jrgok83@4ax.com...
The Hyksos and the Hebrew weren't the same people. The Hyksos, the
only ones for whom there's historical evidence in Egypt, weren't
slaves, they were one of the Egyptian dynasties. The Hebrews, for
whom there's NO historical evidence in Egypt, called themselves slaves
in Egypt (when there's no evidence that they ever *were* in Egypt).
The Hyksos went to live in Israel. There they had Bar Mitzvahs,
circumcision
of male infants, the whole works
You're assuming that the Hyksos and the Hibarus were the same people.
The evidence says they weren't. Why would a people who ruled over at
least part of Egypt for 100 years later claim that they were slaves
there? Especially considering how the rest of the book is really just
one huge brag.
You can't contradict something that makes as little sense as the
so-called
Bible.
Sure you can - DUE TO the fact that it makes so little sense.
Where would you start?
Pick a contradiction, any contradiction.
It's like arguing with your wife.
No it isn't. Fundies don't ever shut up.
When you start to make sense you find the subject was switched in the
middle of your last
sentence.
Well, if you fall for that ...
And, let us not overlook the fact that there is quite a bit known
about Hyksos culture, including their religion. By and large, the
Hyksos
overlords had adopted Egyptian religion and worshipped the various
gods of the
Nile Delta, including Ra, Osiris and Aset. We also know something of
their
native gods, who bore a striking similarity to the standard Semitic
gods of
Asherah and Tammuz. Nope, sorry: no Yahweh.
You expect them to talk about a secret God?
How "secret" is a god that appears in just about every verse of their
bible?
how do you know the Bible wasn't secret back then.
The OT was written to be read - every Sabbath.
--
Whatever. Can't you see I'm just toying with you?
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| User: "Bryan with a Y" |
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| Title: Re: Egyptian Slavery |
10 Feb 2005 04:40:59 PM |
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Gregory Gadow <techbear@serv.net> wrote in message news:<420BA6BF.4921E9D@serv.net>...
Bryan with a Y wrote:
Hey all,
I was wondering if you could settle an argument for me. Could you tell
me whether the slavery of the Hebrews in Egypt really happened or not,
and point me to some good archaeological evidence one way or the
other?
There is absolutely no historical or archaeological evidence that any of
the Biblical events from the famine that brought Israel and his family in
to Egypt to the "conquest" of Canaan ever took place.
The Egyptians were neurotic about their records. Even with their tendency
to erase names and events, written accounts continued to exist to the
modern day. There is NO mention of an entire ethnic group kept enslaved,
there is NO mention of the plagues, there is NO mention of anything that
resembles the Exodus.
The closest we find is a Semitic group of people called the Hyksos. They
brought with them the wheel, the chariot, composite bows and the knowledge
of how to make and use bronze weapons. They slowly immigrated to the Nile
Delta, eventually gaining enough strength and power to wrest political
control over the Delta and create their own pharaonic kingdom (the 15th
Dynasty *), which lasted for about 100 years. When the Egyptians reunified
the Nile Valley and Delta under a single government, the Hyksos and other
foreigners were either put to death or exiled. It is not unreasonable that
they found their way to Canann, where other Semitic peoples lived, and
brought with them the tales that would latter become the basis of the
Exodus stories.
* During this Second Intermediary Period, Egypt was essentially several
small kingdoms. Ancient historians counted the ruling houses of these
small kingdoms to be pharaonic dynasties. Because of this, the 13th
Dynasty was the last in the Middle Kingdom to rule all of Egypt, and the
18th Dynasty established the New Kingdom a century latter. The 14th, 15th,
16th and 17th Dynasties all refer to these smaller kingdoms.
I've done a Google search, but it was impossible to separate
the real archaeological evidence from the made up stuff posted by
people with axes to grind, so I'm no more enlightened than I used to
be.
Beautiful, this is exactly what I wanted. Thanks a lot.
--
Bryan
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| User: "snex" |
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| Title: Re: Egyptian Slavery |
11 Feb 2005 03:19:35 PM |
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Gregory Gadow wrote:
Bryan with a Y wrote:
Hey all,
I was wondering if you could settle an argument for me. Could you
tell
me whether the slavery of the Hebrews in Egypt really happened or
not,
and point me to some good archaeological evidence one way or the
other?
There is absolutely no historical or archaeological evidence that any
of
the Biblical events from the famine that brought Israel and his
family in
to Egypt to the "conquest" of Canaan ever took place.
The Egyptians were neurotic about their records. Even with their
tendency
to erase names and events, written accounts continued to exist to the
modern day. There is NO mention of an entire ethnic group kept
enslaved,
there is NO mention of the plagues, there is NO mention of anything
that
resembles the Exodus.
The closest we find is a Semitic group of people called the Hyksos.
They
brought with them the wheel, the chariot, composite bows and the
knowledge
of how to make and use bronze weapons. They slowly immigrated to the
Nile
Delta, eventually gaining enough strength and power to wrest
political
control over the Delta and create their own pharaonic kingdom (the
15th
Dynasty *), which lasted for about 100 years. When the Egyptians
reunified
the Nile Valley and Delta under a single government, the Hyksos and
other
foreigners were either put to death or exiled. It is not unreasonable
that
they found their way to Canann, where other Semitic peoples lived,
and
brought with them the tales that would latter become the basis of the
Exodus stories.
* During this Second Intermediary Period, Egypt was essentially
several
small kingdoms. Ancient historians counted the ruling houses of these
small kingdoms to be pharaonic dynasties. Because of this, the 13th
Dynasty was the last in the Middle Kingdom to rule all of Egypt, and
the
18th Dynasty established the New Kingdom a century latter. The 14th,
15th,
16th and 17th Dynasties all refer to these smaller kingdoms.
I've done a Google search, but it was impossible to separate
the real archaeological evidence from the made up stuff posted by
people with axes to grind, so I'm no more enlightened than I used
to
be.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"[T]hose who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves;
and, under the rule of a just God, cannot long retain it."
-- Pres. George W. Bush, Hypocrite, his inauguration speech, 2005
actually there is some evidence of jewish slaves in egypt, and a new
theory called the new chronology has made some interesting finds
relating to the bible and exodus. i dont know how well accepted the
theory is, but it certainly has some real physical evidence in its
favor. http://www.lamblion.com/articles/other/religious/RI-19.php has a
brief overview of the idea and presents some of the evidence.
and just so everybody knows, i AM an atheist, so dont get on my case.
theres no reason to be threatened by some historical accuracy in the
bible. a few archaeological finds that show the exodus to be somewhat
plausible certainly does not confirm the existence of the supernatural
or the idea that the earth is 6000 years old, etc.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Egyptian Slavery |
11 Feb 2005 10:29:04 PM |
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On 11 Feb 2005 13:19:35 -0800, "snex" <snex@comcast.net> said in
alt.atheism:
actually there is some evidence of jewish slaves in egypt, and a new
theory called the new chronology has made some interesting finds
relating to the bible and exodus. i dont know how well accepted the
theory is, but it certainly has some real physical evidence in its
favor. http://www.lamblion.com/articles/other/religious/RI-19.php has a
brief overview of the idea and presents some of the evidence.
Published in England 10 years ago. Published in the US 9 years ago.
Nothing new. Nothing's been heard of it so far.
--
"Creationists are the best evidence we have that there is no intelligent design."
-Josef Balluch
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: Egyptian Slavery |
10 Feb 2005 12:07:49 PM |
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Bryan with a Y wrote:
Hey all,
I was wondering if you could settle an argument for me. Could you tell
me whether the slavery of the Hebrews in Egypt really happened or not,
and point me to some good archaeological evidence one way or the
other? I've done a Google search, but it was impossible to separate
the real archaeological evidence from the made up stuff posted by
people with axes to grind, so I'm no more enlightened than I used to
be.
--
Bryan
Check this out.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684869136/qid=1108058587/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-0347423-2647868
Two Jewish archaeologists, with out an agenda.
In case it does not work, search for "The Bible Unearthed".
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
A.A #1143 PLONKED by Bob
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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| User: "Mike Ruskai" |
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| Title: Re: Egyptian Slavery |
11 Feb 2005 01:55:45 AM |
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On 10 Feb 2005 09:24:17 -0800, Bryan with a Y wrote:
I was wondering if you could settle an argument for me. Could you tell
me whether the slavery of the Hebrews in Egypt really happened or not,
and point me to some good archaeological evidence one way or the
other? I've done a Google search, but it was impossible to separate
the real archaeological evidence from the made up stuff posted by
people with axes to grind, so I'm no more enlightened than I used to
be.
The only evidence is the complete lack of it. Hebrews are mentioned only
once in all surviving Egyptian writings, and it's only a brief mention,
not even remotely construable as indicating that they were slaves.
Since the surviving writings mention all sorts of mundane things, it's
certainly peculiar that the presence of millions of slaves calling
themselves Hebrews is never mentioned.
Most labor in Egypt wasn't slavery at all, of course, but often merely
paid in "room and board".
If I had to guess, I'd say there may have been a very, very small number
of Hebrew slaves (or simply those who couldn't afford to leave, and had to
keep working for subsistence) in Egypt, with the final story being just
the typical gross exaggeration and embellishment of all fact-based events
in the Bible.
--
- Mike
Remove 'spambegone.net' and reverse to send e-mail.
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