Entropy and the Eternal Soul



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Jor-El"
Date: 15 Sep 2005 09:24:37 PM
Object: Entropy and the Eternal Soul

Has it occurred to anybody that the second law of thermodynamics, which
dictates that entropy must always increase, makes an eternal soul
impossible? It violates the laws of physics. Entropy demands that nothing
can be eternal.
.

User: ""

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 16 Sep 2005 12:20:55 AM
Go with the scientific method.
1. find a soul.
2. measure its energy level
3. wait a while and monitor energy inputs and expenditures by the
soul..
4. measure its energy level again.
Report results to this group.
.
User: "Jor-El"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 16 Sep 2005 05:16:33 AM
wrote in news:1126830054.999948.191810
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Go with the scientific method.

1. find a soul.
2. measure its energy level
3. wait a while and monitor energy inputs and expenditures by the
soul..
4. measure its energy level again.

Report results to this group.

No need, as I already know the answer. It's in steady state.
.
User: "Dubh Ghall"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 16 Sep 2005 10:36:57 AM
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 05:16:33 GMT, "Jor-El" <Me@Krypton.Planet> wrote:

marks542004@yahoo.com wrote in news:1126830054.999948.191810
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Go with the scientific method.

1. find a soul.
2. measure its energy level
3. wait a while and monitor energy inputs and expenditures by the
soul..
4. measure its energy level again.

Report results to this group.


No need, as I already know the answer. It's in steady state.

As in, "Steadily, non-existant".
.
User: "Jor-El"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 16 Sep 2005 10:36:42 PM
Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in
news:er7li1hru0qvrjs1k3l8o3tdc3kome8p5v@4ax.com:

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 05:16:33 GMT, "Jor-El" <Me@Krypton.Planet> wrote:

marks542004@yahoo.com wrote in news:1126830054.999948.191810
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Go with the scientific method.

1. find a soul.
2. measure its energy level
3. wait a while and monitor energy inputs and expenditures by the
soul..
4. measure its energy level again.

Report results to this group.


No need, as I already know the answer. It's in steady state.


As in, "Steadily, non-existant".

It's like the dynamic equilibrium they taught you in high school chemistry.
And it's not eternal, and it's all in your head.
.
User: "Dubh Ghall"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 16 Sep 2005 10:50:56 PM
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 22:36:42 GMT, "Jor-El" <Me@Krypton.Planet> wrote:

Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in
news:er7li1hru0qvrjs1k3l8o3tdc3kome8p5v@4ax.com:

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 05:16:33 GMT, "Jor-El" <Me@Krypton.Planet> wrote:

marks542004@yahoo.com wrote in news:1126830054.999948.191810
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Go with the scientific method.

1. find a soul.
2. measure its energy level
3. wait a while and monitor energy inputs and expenditures by the
soul..
4. measure its energy level again.

Report results to this group.


No need, as I already know the answer. It's in steady state.


As in, "Steadily, non-existant".


It's like the dynamic equilibrium they taught you in high school chemistry.
And it's not eternal, and it's all in your head.

Not in my head, sunshine: But I take your meaning. (:-).
.


User: "thomas p"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 16 Sep 2005 04:47:31 PM
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 10:36:57 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey>
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 05:16:33 GMT, "Jor-El" <Me@Krypton.Planet> wrote:

marks542004@yahoo.com wrote in news:1126830054.999948.191810
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Go with the scientific method.

1. find a soul.
2. measure its energy level
3. wait a while and monitor energy inputs and expenditures by the
soul..
4. measure its energy level again.

Report results to this group.


No need, as I already know the answer. It's in steady state.


As in, "Steadily, non-existant".

Precisely. How can a being capable of thinking, of feeling pleasure
or pain be "in steady state"?
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)

.
User: "Jor-El"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 16 Sep 2005 10:38:23 PM
thomas p <tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote in
news:m3rli193sk3teo9v2h9n7qe58bmvj4bmsi@4ax.com:

How can a being capable of thinking, of feeling pleasure
or pain be "in steady state"?

Dynamic equilibrium, then.
.
User: "thomas p"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 17 Sep 2005 07:02:27 AM
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 22:38:23 GMT, "Jor-El" <Me@Krypton.Planet> wrote:

thomas p <tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote in
news:m3rli193sk3teo9v2h9n7qe58bmvj4bmsi@4ax.com:

How can a being capable of thinking, of feeling pleasure
or pain be "in steady state"?


Dynamic equilibrium, then.

Is that anything like perpetual motion?
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)

.
User: "Jor-El"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 17 Sep 2005 10:46:17 AM
thomas p <tonyofbexarnospam@yahoo.dk> wrote in
news:khfni19smt6hpgce05772rlrji70p007vp@4ax.com:

How can a being capable of thinking, of feeling pleasure
or pain be "in steady state"?


Dynamic equilibrium, then.


Is that anything like perpetual motion?

Nothing like it. There's a driving energy source from the outside world.
.







User: "Chris Johnson"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 16 Sep 2005 01:41:59 AM
Has it occurred to you that people that believe in things like souls
don't give two shits about science?
.
User: "Jor-El"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 16 Sep 2005 10:39:59 PM
"Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in news:1126834919.100373.158770
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Has it occurred to you that people that believe in things like souls
don't give two shits about science?

I'm an atheist, and I believe in the soul; I just don't believe that it's
either eternal or supernatural. And this is an atheist's group, where
people give two shits about science.
.
User: "Chris Johnson"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 16 Sep 2005 11:38:43 PM
Jor-El wrote:

"Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in news:1126834919.100373.158770
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Has it occurred to you that people that believe in things like souls
don't give two shits about science?


I'm an atheist, and I believe in the soul; I just don't believe that it's
either eternal or supernatural. And this is an atheist's group, where
people give two shits about science.

What is a soul? What evidence is there for it? How did you come to the
conclusion that a soul exists?
.
User: "Jor-El"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 19 Sep 2005 06:49:48 PM
"Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1126913923.268029.278010@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

What is a soul? What evidence is there for it? How did you come to the
conclusion that a soul exists?

Read the thread.
.


User: "Dubh Ghall"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 16 Sep 2005 10:57:37 PM
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 22:39:59 GMT, "Jor-El" <Me@Krypton.Planet> wrote:

"Chris Johnson" <effigies@gmail.com> wrote in news:1126834919.100373.158770
@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Has it occurred to you that people that believe in things like souls
don't give two shits about science?


I'm an atheist, and I believe in the soul; I just don't believe that it's
either eternal or supernatural. And this is an atheist's group, where
people give two shits about science.

And your evidence for the existence of this "soul", would be ... What?
.



User: "Jim Heckman"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 17 Sep 2005 12:59:23 AM
On 15-Sep-2005, "Jor-El" <Me@Krypton.Planet>
wrote in message <Xns96D2B11BC9F93laskdjhla@207.115.17.102>:

Has it occurred to anybody that the second law of thermodynamics, which
dictates that entropy must always increase,

Not quite. It says that entropy never decreases.

makes an eternal soul
impossible? It violates the laws of physics. Entropy demands that
nothing can be eternal.

In practice, entropy does indeed always increase, but that's the
entropy of the Universe as a whole. Nothing in the 2nd law prevents
specific 'pieces' of the Universe, say for example souls if such
were to exist, from having static or even decreasing entropy as
long as any decrease is compensated for elsewhere in the Universe.
--
Jim Heckman
.
User: "Enkidu the Atheist"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 17 Sep 2005 01:03:57 AM
"Jim Heckman" <wnzrfeurpxzna@lnubb.pbz.invalid> wrote in
news:11imqjdtkcqbo1f@corp.supernews.com:


On 15-Sep-2005, "Jor-El" <Me@Krypton.Planet>
wrote in message <Xns96D2B11BC9F93laskdjhla@207.115.17.102>:

Has it occurred to anybody that the second law of thermodynamics,
which dictates that entropy must always increase,


Not quite. It says that entropy never decreases.

No, just that it is unlikely to decrease.

makes an eternal soul
impossible? It violates the laws of physics. Entropy demands that
nothing can be eternal.


In practice, entropy does indeed always increase, but that's the
entropy of the Universe as a whole. Nothing in the 2nd law prevents
specific 'pieces' of the Universe, say for example souls if such
were to exist, from having static or even decreasing entropy as
long as any decrease is compensated for elsewhere in the Universe.

But an all-powerful God could do anything, even exist. The evidence
that He does is lacking, however. Does that mean that an all-powerful
God could choose *not* to exist?
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
If God made us in his image, we have certainly returned the compliment."

-- Voltaire 1694-1778
.
User: "Jor-El"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 19 Sep 2005 06:45:13 PM
Enkidu the Atheist <jdwnx4702@sneakemail.com> wrote in
news:Xns96D3B7D107D5255229@130.133.1.4:

an all-powerful God could do anything

There is no evidence that God ever violated the laws of physics.
.
User: "Enkidu the Atheist"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 19 Sep 2005 11:38:49 PM
"Jor-El" <Me@Krypton.Planet> wrote in news:Xns96D6961A1B613laskdjhla@
207.115.17.102:

Enkidu the Atheist <jdwnx4702@sneakemail.com> wrote in
news:Xns96D3B7D107D5255229@130.133.1.4:

an all-powerful God could do anything


There is no evidence that God ever violated the laws of physics.

Certainly true . . . there is no evidence God has ever done anything.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
I hold out the following challenge to christians:

You talk a great deal about evil and you choose to blame the devil, whom
you call Satan. I challenge you to read your bibles and find therein,
just one example of one act committed by Satan that is half as cruel,
vicious, brutal and sadistic as the hundreds of despicable acts committed
by your abominable god, Jehovah.

-- ozheretic
.

User: "Mike McWilliams"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 19 Sep 2005 06:59:17 PM
Jor-El wrote:

Enkidu the Atheist <jdwnx4702@sneakemail.com> wrote in
news:Xns96D3B7D107D5255229@130.133.1.4:


an all-powerful God could do anything



There is no evidence that God ever violated the laws of physics.

it depends on which freaky sect you talk to...
There are plenty of mormons who believe that the ice age is a result of
GOD moving the earth from an earlier sun to the present one...
and many other kooky notions about god which are far more interesting
than the average christian sect
.

User: "Christopher A. Lee"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 19 Sep 2005 06:55:01 PM
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:45:13 GMT, "Jor-El" <Me@Krypton.Planet> wrote:

Enkidu the Atheist <jdwnx4702@sneakemail.com> wrote in
news:Xns96D3B7D107D5255229@130.133.1.4:

an all-powerful God could do anything


There is no evidence that God ever violated the laws of physics.

There is no evidence that God is anything more than a figment of your
deluded imagination, to do anything at all.
.


User: "Jim Heckman"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 17 Sep 2005 06:14:40 AM
On 16-Sep-2005, Enkidu the Atheist <jdwnx4702@sneakemail.com>
wrote in message <Xns96D3B7D107D5255229@130.133.1.4>:

"Jim Heckman" <wnzrfeurpxzna@lnubb.pbz.invalid> wrote in
news:11imqjdtkcqbo1f@corp.supernews.com:

On 15-Sep-2005, "Jor-El" <Me@Krypton.Planet>
wrote in message <Xns96D2B11BC9F93laskdjhla@207.115.17.102>:

Has it occurred to anybody that the second law of thermodynamics,
which dictates that entropy must always increase,


Not quite. It says that entropy never decreases.


No, just that it is unlikely to decrease.

Good point. I was thinking of the 2nd law as it was originally
formulated during the early development of thermodynamics, before
the connection was made with atomic theory and statistical
mechanics.
[...]
--
Jim Heckman
.
User: "Jor-El"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 17 Sep 2005 10:45:32 AM
"Jim Heckman" <wnzrfeurpxzna@lnubb.pbz.invalid> wrote in
news:11ind2eb5jvqe5e@corp.supernews.com:

Has it occurred to anybody that the second law of thermodynamics,
which dictates that entropy must always increase,


Not quite. It says that entropy never decreases.


No, just that it is unlikely to decrease.


Good point. I was thinking of the 2nd law as it was originally
formulated during the early development of thermodynamics, before
the connection was made with atomic theory and statistical
mechanics.

That's absolutely wrong. The second law states unequivocally that entropy
will always increase.
.
User: "Jim Heckman"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 18 Sep 2005 07:27:25 AM
On 17-Sep-2005, "Jor-El" <Me@Krypton.Planet>
wrote in message <Xns96D444C3BDB39laskdjhla@207.115.17.102>:

"Jim Heckman" <wnzrfeurpxzna@lnubb.pbz.invalid> wrote in
news:11ind2eb5jvqe5e@corp.supernews.com:

Has it occurred to anybody that the second law of thermodynamics,
which dictates that entropy must always increase,


Not quite. It says that entropy never decreases.


No, just that it is unlikely to decrease.


Good point. I was thinking of the 2nd law as it was originally
formulated during the early development of thermodynamics, before
the connection was made with atomic theory and statistical
mechanics.


That's absolutely wrong. The second law states unequivocally that entropy
will always increase.

Um, no. Even in the original development of thermodynamics as a
theory of heat engines it was recognized that the entropy of an
ideal, reversible Carnot-cycle system doesn't change. (Of course in
practice no such ideal system actually exists.)
Later when the connection was made with atomic theory and
statistical mechanics it became clear that the 2nd law is really
only statistical. As Enkidu said, it's overwhelmingly likely that
entropy will never decrease, but not completely impossible. In
fact, in recent years experimenters have managed to manipulate
small, quantum-mechanical systems in such a way that the total
entropy of the Universe *does* decrease, albeit only by a small
amount, and only temporarily. (I'd guess there's a close cousin of
the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle at work here that limits the
amount of, and duration of, the decrease, but I haven't researched
any detailed analysis.)
--
Jim Heckman
.
User: "Jor-El"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 18 Sep 2005 05:01:53 PM
"Jim Heckman" <wnzrfeurpxzna@lnubb.pbz.invalid> wrote in
news:11iq5mom1apl623@corp.supernews.com:

That's absolutely wrong. The second law states unequivocally that
entropy will always increase.


Even in the original development of thermodynamics as a
theory of heat engines it was recognized that the entropy of an
ideal, reversible Carnot-cycle system doesn't change. (Of course in
practice no such ideal system actually exists.)

Listen to you contradict yourself, you just said Delta S = 0 is an ideal
state, which does not exist in practice. Ideal reversible cycles are a
mathematical artifice, created only for purposes of approximation,
allowing the early scientists could derive the mathematical equations.
It's an asymptotic case, and the asymptote is only approached as the
cycle's compression & expansion times approach infinity. Infinity is
not approached in ANY real systems. What are the compression &
expansion times of an actual system, like say a REAL heat engine?

Later when the connection was made with atomic theory and
statistical mechanics it became clear that the 2nd law is really
only statistical. As Enkidu said, it's overwhelmingly likely that
entropy will never decrease, but not completely impossible.

A probably of one chance in >10^23 is zero for all purposes except
advanced mathematical calculations and hair splitting.

in recent years experimenters have managed to manipulate
small, quantum-mechanical systems in such a way that the total
entropy of the Universe *does* decrease, albeit only by a small
amount, and only temporarily. (I'd guess there's a close cousin of
the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle at work here that limits the
amount of, and duration of, the decrease, but I haven't researched
any detailed analysis.)

Sure, a couple of overeducated MIT geniuses with a fat government budget
used extremely advanced math to find an infinitesimally rare situation,
and you're using this to argue against the macroscopic generalization
that Delta S > 0 on any scale that you and I will ever experience. This
is a mere technicality, and has nothing to do with the system of
discussion, which you forgot was the human soul.
Volumes and times on the Heisenberg scale do not exist, for the purpose
of arguments about macroscopic objects, like the human soul, unless
you're one of those cranks who think the soul is a quantum mechanical
structure.
.
User: "Enkidu the Atheist"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 18 Sep 2005 05:14:25 PM
"Jor-El" <Me@Krypton.Planet> wrote in news:Xns96D58213E91B4laskdjhla@
207.115.17.102:

It's an asymptotic case, and the asymptote is only approached as the
cycle's compression & expansion times approach infinity. Infinity is
not approached in ANY real systems. What are the compression &
expansion times of an actual system, like say a REAL heat engine?

Curious. So if the universe goes through an infinite series of
contractions and expansions, the thermodynamic argument goes where?
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by
faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits.
-Dan Barker, "Losing Faith in Faith", 1992
.
User: "Jor-El"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 19 Sep 2005 06:43:08 PM
Enkidu the Atheist <jdwnx4702@sneakemail.com> wrote in
news:Xns96D56837F1950255229@130.133.1.4:

if the universe goes through an infinite series of
contractions and expansions, the thermodynamic argument goes where?

The thermodynamic agrument goes to sci.physics.
.



User: "Mike McWilliams"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 19 Sep 2005 07:02:43 PM
Jim Heckman wrote:

Later when the connection was made with atomic theory and
statistical mechanics it became clear that the 2nd law is really
only statistical. As Enkidu said, it's overwhelmingly likely that
entropy will never decrease, but not completely impossible. In
fact, in recent years experimenters have managed to manipulate
small, quantum-mechanical systems in such a way that the total
entropy of the Universe *does* decrease, albeit only by a small
amount, and only temporarily. (I'd guess there's a close cousin of
the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle at work here that limits the
amount of, and duration of, the decrease, but I haven't researched
any detailed analysis.)

Also, recent evidence points more to a universe that expands and doesn't
contract... It will be a long lonely ride by the time we have
intergalactic travel...
.


User: "Christopher A. Lee"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 17 Sep 2005 11:56:49 AM
On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 10:45:32 GMT, "Jor-El" <Me@Krypton.Planet> wrote:

"Jim Heckman" <wnzrfeurpxzna@lnubb.pbz.invalid> wrote in
news:11ind2eb5jvqe5e@corp.supernews.com:

Has it occurred to anybody that the second law of thermodynamics,
which dictates that entropy must always increase,


Not quite. It says that entropy never decreases.


No, just that it is unlikely to decrease.


Good point. I was thinking of the 2nd law as it was originally
formulated during the early development of thermodynamics, before
the connection was made with atomic theory and statistical
mechanics.


That's absolutely wrong. The second law states unequivocally that entropy
will always increase.

No. Overall, it increases. But locally it can decrease. Otherwise your
refrigerator wouldn't work. Or rechargeable batteries.
Think of it as how energy is used up.
When you recharge a battery its entropy is decreased. Which uses up
energy/entropy elsewhere. Actually increases the total entropy by more
than the battery's is decreased.
An increase in entropy outside the refrigerator causes a local
decrease inside it.
People who use the bogus "argument" from thermodynamics forget that
there is an enormous source of decreasing entropy 93 million miles
away. It's a huge source of energy input.
.
User: "Mr. Anderson"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 19 Sep 2005 06:47:48 PM
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
news:ni0oi1h04icapos5td64gnee92le3fp947@4ax.com:

No. Overall, it increases. But locally it can decrease. Otherwise your
refrigerator wouldn't work. Or rechargeable batteries.

Think of it as how energy is used up.

When you recharge a battery its entropy is decreased. Which uses up
energy/entropy elsewhere. Actually increases the total entropy by more
than the battery's is decreased.

An increase in entropy outside the refrigerator causes a local
decrease inside it.

People who use the bogus "argument" from thermodynamics forget that
there is an enormous source of decreasing entropy 93 million miles
away. It's a huge source of energy input.

No. The question is what happens to a person's soul when they die. Do you
think that death produces a local decrease in entropy?
.
User: "Enkidu the Atheist"

Title: Re: Entropy and the Eternal Soul 19 Sep 2005 11:32:49 PM
"Mr. Anderson" <eat@joes.com> wrote in
news:Xns96D6968AAE5FClaksjdflasjkdfh@207.115.17.102:

Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in
news:ni0oi1h04icapos5td64gnee92le3fp947@4ax.com:

No. Overall, it increases. But locally it can decrease. Otherwise
your refrigerator wouldn't work. Or rechargeable batteries.

Think of it as how energy is used up.

When you recharge a battery its entropy is decreased. Which uses up
energy/entropy elsewhere. Actually increases the total entropy by
more than the battery's is decreased.

An increase in entropy outside the refrigerator causes a local
decrease inside it.

People who use the bogus "argument" from thermodynamics forget that
there is an enormous source of decreasing entropy 93 million miles
away. It's a huge source of energy input.


No. The question is what happens to a person's soul when they die.
Do you think that death produces a local decrease in entropy?

What's a 'soul'?
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
PGP ID: 0xC4CE8CF0
I hold out the following challenge to christians:

You talk a great deal about evil and you choose to blame the devil, whom
you call Satan. I challenge you to read your bibles and find therein,
just one example of one act committed by Satan that is half as cruel,
vicious, brutal and sadistic as the hundreds of despicable acts committed
by your abominable god, Jehovah.

-- ozheretic
.








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