Error bars and a hypothetical philosophy of secular, humble arrogance



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: ""
Date: 02 Dec 2006 01:22:09 AM
Object: Error bars and a hypothetical philosophy of secular, humble arrogance
An atheist I am not, for this would mean having faith in the
non-existence of some deity or deities. Nor do I have faith in the
existence of any particular god or gods. As a physicist, I keep my
belief systems within the error bars of inductive experience. I use
Occam's razor. I think that it is more likely that infinities of
universes exist, some too tough to spawn life, some just right for life
to self organize and evolve, than the notion that we are the flawed,
free willed spawn of some perfect, omniscient god-a concept which
should already be doubly illogical for those brave enough to risk their
immortal souls by using some small portion of their brain.
I would be greatly surprised if I tossed a rock skywards and it stayed
the course, because my expectation is for it to cut-and-run, and fall
back towards the Earth. But who knows? Physical "law" is based on
inductive logic, and induction cannot guarantee the future. When we
repeat an experiment over and over, and see the same general behavior
again and again, we gain confidence in the future repeatability of our
experience, but we should never extrapolate our finitely gained
confidence with absolute faith. If you push a long, stiff wire upwards
more and more over your head, it typically reaches a tipping point and
bends over under its own weight-as our global climate might soon do
under our weight. Physical constants which we may not yet have
detected, and which might drive our inductively produced physical laws,
may be evolving, and may suddenly lead to a tipping point of whole new,
unexpected and unprecedented behaviors. Stephen Hawking himself
wonders, "whether it is possible to formulate a single theory of the
universe in a finite number of statements." Who knows? We should
therefore be humble to a point, but we should also be arrogant enough
to press on, say, with looking for cures to cancer based on past
research and experience. A childhood leukemia was a death sentence in
1956, and unless prayer has become far more effective in modern
nations, cure rates are now quite high in 2006 due to modern medicine.
Well done science is in great part about building expectations
inductively. The word expectation in science means "mean." In
principle, there is a mean (expected) human height, but most humans are
of average height, an average being a range of heights to the left and
right of the mean. But because our rulers are imperfect, and can never
be made perfect-rulers also typically expand when hot and contract
when cold-and because our eyes aren't perfect, and so on, we can
never truly know with perfection what the actual human mean height is
at any given moment, even if we could somehow sample every human being
at the same moment in time-another physical impossibility. Thus,
just as with the ubiquitous sampled political poll, a range of error,
which we can estimate, is inherent in the value for mean human height.
Because of this inherent error, well done science is also about
continually looking for cracks in well done science. We are still
testing relativity and quantum mechanics, and will continue to do so,
not because we expect a radical change necessarily, but rather a
continual refinement of our testable hypotheses. Sorry creation
science-if you have no testable hypothesis, you're not really a
science.
Almost by definition, faith equals NO DOUBT and conversely. Faith also
defines a belief system with no error bars. A faith based belief
system can be as pernicious to science as to morality because it too
readily admits illogical, nonsensical foundations. Immanuel Kant
believed that without religion, or at least faith in a god, morality
and civilization could not survive for long. I doubt this. Rather, it
seems more likely that religion and organized faith in some god,
coupled with today's energy and resource crises, and nuclear weapons
proliferation in the hands of Muslim radicals, may end civilization, if
not humanity out right. North Korea's Dear Leader wants oil and food
for his nation in which Buddhism, Confucianism and some Christianity is
practiced. Muslim radicals want us to meet Allah in a mushroom cloud
so that He can sort us out.
In fact, time and again history has shown that under a moral philosophy
of NO DOUBT entire hordes of religiously motivated people of faith have
maimed and butchered children, burned witches, lynched blacks, killed
homosexuals, oppressed women, burned books, imprisoned scholars,
pillaged, plundered and razed entire civilizations, and slowly
eviscerated other peoples. And these religiously motivated people
committed, and continue to commit these crimes and atrocities against
humanity without a doubt in their minds for they were and are following
the will of their god, NO DOUBT. This is not to say that people of
faith based organized religion don't do some "good" work some of
the time. I'm sure that some nominal fraction of organized church
monies, for example, goes into cancer research and other good causes,
but what fraction? Half? I doubt it. Grand expensive churches, and
other expenses Jesus would have approved of, like money to "values"
pandering politicians and their political action committees can be
murder on their cash flows. But why do these people of good faith do
this "good" work to begin with? Is it out of the goodness of their
own hearts, or for the reward of life after death for Christians, or a
harem for Islamic suicide bombers? The religious, it can be argued, do
"good" work more to save their own skins than the skins of those
they wish to "save", like the American natives. Any claimed
sincerity on a religious person's part is innately questionable,
which leads me to propose an alternative, science based morality and
social contract for the future sake of humanity.
Imagine a hypothetical world where people shunned NO DOUBT faith
whatsoever, and instead searched for demonstrable, defendable,
repeatable facts with good science practice and sound logic. Instead
of trying to "help" each other out by trying to "save" each
other with ropes and bullets, these people might try to get along
without stealing, cheating or killing because it's good for a
secular, democratic civilization of laws, and such a civilization
(producing modern leukemia treatments) is good for them. I would not
expect perfection given our innate competitiveness and sometimes
lawless tendencies, but I would expect a reduced misery and a reduced
chance of self-destruction. After all, a herd mentality requires a
threshold number of similarly minded instigators, and if there are less
such instigators, there is a reduced likelihood to herd. Who do you
see as more likely to cause trouble, a group of like-minded fanatics
with a NO DOUBT belief system, or a tough looking group of rowdy
doubting Thomases?
Of course, since I am advocating a scientific, doubt based morality
over religious, NO DOUBT based moralities, some people will point out
the dark ways of some science and scientists. Science brought us the
A-bomb, and then the H-bomb. Since then, we have not had a third world
war, but thanks to the internet and other technologies, more people are
rising up the economic rungs worldwide, and gamma knives kill brain
tumors. We still do, however, constantly suffer too many regional
religious conflicts-witness our conflict against Islamic fanatics
replete with beautiful beheadings in the name of Allah. On the
personal level, certainly there have been, and there still are evil
scientists absolutely convinced of their nefarious theories who get
tempted to play gods. But there also have been, and there still are
evil priests and popes who like to play god. These points, picking out
individuals from a population, are not the point. Scientists do not
make the scientific method any more than religious leaders make up
religion. By the way, history records that fifty-nine A-bomb scientists
signed a petition to President Truman asking him to demonstrate the
bomb's power to the Japanese on a remote island. In the end, given the
stiffening Japanese resistance as American forces neared Japan, the
historical record leads me to conclude that many more American and
Japanese lives were spared with the use of Fat Man and Little Boy than
would otherwise have been.
Ultimately, a non-religious humanity following a doubt-based morality
is not guaranteed survival. A humongous comet may yet squash us like
the bugs we are-splat! We humans, because we are innately
competitive, and have difficulties with basic morality (e.g., we kill,
steal, cheat, often in the name of some god) may yet treat ourselves to
nuclear winter or death by advanced viral weapons. Given our history,
it seems arguably less likely that such a end might happen to us if we
gave up NO DOUBT.
As for our personal salvation, if and until we figure out how to cure
aging and disease, and perhaps transform ourselves into more advanced
types of indefinitely long lived beings, we die, and our lives will
have had no meaning other than, perhaps, the quality of our children we
raised, and what we contributed to the betterment of humanity while we
lived. Eventually, though, as Marcus Aurelius noted, even this
personal meaning to our lives would fade into time immemorial. I'm
pretty sure of one thing. If there is a Christian-like god out there,
a god who blames our flaws on us, not He, the Creator, and is so petty
that It needs my worship else It sends me to Hell, well then, send my
credentials to the house of detention. I've got some friends in
there-friends who died in foxholes.
Sincerely,
Alex Alaniz, Ph.D.
Author of Beyond Future Shock
.

User: "GoDrex"

Title: Re: Error bars and a hypothetical philosophy of secular, humble arrogance 02 Dec 2006 09:12:09 AM
<akalaniz@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165044129.754448.234610@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

An atheist I am not, for this would mean having faith in the
non-existence of some deity or deities.

wrong... try again
.

User: "Smiler"

Title: Re: Error bars and a hypothetical philosophy of secular, humble arrogance 02 Dec 2006 07:57:07 PM
<akalaniz@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165044129.754448.234610@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

An atheist I am not, for this would mean having faith in the
non-existence of some deity or deities.

Atheists have no faith of any kind.
I cannot disprove the existence of something that doesn't exist.
Nor do I have faith in the

existence of any particular god or gods. As a physicist, I keep my
belief systems within the error bars of inductive experience. I use
Occam's razor. I think that it is more likely that infinities of
universes exist, some too tough to spawn life, some just right for life
to self organize and evolve, than the notion that we are the flawed,
free willed spawn of some perfect, omniscient god-a concept which
should already be doubly illogical for those brave enough to risk their
immortal souls by using some small portion of their brain.

I would be greatly surprised if I tossed a rock skywards and it stayed
the course, because my expectation is for it to cut-and-run, and fall
back towards the Earth. But who knows? Physical "law" is based on
inductive logic, and induction cannot guarantee the future. When we
repeat an experiment over and over, and see the same general behavior
again and again, we gain confidence in the future repeatability of our
experience, but we should never extrapolate our finitely gained
confidence with absolute faith. If you push a long, stiff wire upwards
more and more over your head, it typically reaches a tipping point and
bends over under its own weight-as our global climate might soon do
under our weight. Physical constants which we may not yet have
detected, and which might drive our inductively produced physical laws,
may be evolving, and may suddenly lead to a tipping point of whole new,
unexpected and unprecedented behaviors. Stephen Hawking himself
wonders, "whether it is possible to formulate a single theory of the
universe in a finite number of statements." Who knows? We should
therefore be humble to a point, but we should also be arrogant enough
to press on, say, with looking for cures to cancer based on past
research and experience. A childhood leukemia was a death sentence in
1956, and unless prayer has become far more effective in modern
nations, cure rates are now quite high in 2006 due to modern medicine.

Well done science is in great part about building expectations
inductively. The word expectation in science means "mean." In
principle, there is a mean (expected) human height, but most humans are
of average height, an average being a range of heights to the left and
right of the mean. But because our rulers are imperfect, and can never
be made perfect-rulers also typically expand when hot and contract
when cold-and because our eyes aren't perfect, and so on, we can
never truly know with perfection what the actual human mean height is
at any given moment, even if we could somehow sample every human being
at the same moment in time-another physical impossibility. Thus,
just as with the ubiquitous sampled political poll, a range of error,
which we can estimate, is inherent in the value for mean human height.

But why would we *need* to know what the average human height is, to within
a micron?
To within a quarter of an inch is sufficient for most purposes.

Because of this inherent error, well done science is also about
continually looking for cracks in well done science. We are still
testing relativity and quantum mechanics, and will continue to do so,
not because we expect a radical change necessarily, but rather a
continual refinement of our testable hypotheses. Sorry creation
science-if you have no testable hypothesis, you're not really a
science.

Almost by definition, faith equals NO DOUBT and conversely. Faith also
defines a belief system with no error bars. A faith based belief
system can be as pernicious to science as to morality because it too
readily admits illogical, nonsensical foundations. Immanuel Kant
believed that without religion, or at least faith in a god, morality
and civilization could not survive for long. I doubt this. Rather, it
seems more likely that religion and organized faith in some god,
coupled with today's energy and resource crises, and nuclear weapons
proliferation in the hands of Muslim radicals, may end civilization, if
not humanity out right. North Korea's Dear Leader wants oil and food
for his nation in which Buddhism, Confucianism and some Christianity is
practiced. Muslim radicals want us to meet Allah in a mushroom cloud
so that He can sort us out.

In fact, time and again history has shown that under a moral philosophy
of NO DOUBT entire hordes of religiously motivated people of faith have
maimed and butchered children, burned witches, lynched blacks, killed
homosexuals, oppressed women, burned books, imprisoned scholars,
pillaged, plundered and razed entire civilizations, and slowly
eviscerated other peoples. And these religiously motivated people
committed, and continue to commit these crimes and atrocities against
humanity without a doubt in their minds for they were and are following
the will of their god, NO DOUBT. This is not to say that people of
faith based organized religion don't do some "good" work some of
the time. I'm sure that some nominal fraction of organized church
monies, for example, goes into cancer research and other good causes,
but what fraction? Half? I doubt it. Grand expensive churches, and
other expenses Jesus would have approved of, like money to "values"
pandering politicians and their political action committees can be
murder on their cash flows. But why do these people of good faith do
this "good" work to begin with? Is it out of the goodness of their
own hearts, or for the reward of life after death for Christians, or a
harem for Islamic suicide bombers? The religious, it can be argued, do
"good" work more to save their own skins than the skins of those
they wish to "save", like the American natives. Any claimed
sincerity on a religious person's part is innately questionable,
which leads me to propose an alternative, science based morality and
social contract for the future sake of humanity.

Imagine a hypothetical world where people shunned NO DOUBT faith
whatsoever, and instead searched for demonstrable, defendable,
repeatable facts with good science practice and sound logic. Instead
of trying to "help" each other out by trying to "save" each
other with ropes and bullets, these people might try to get along
without stealing, cheating or killing because it's good for a
secular, democratic civilization of laws, and such a civilization
(producing modern leukemia treatments) is good for them. I would not
expect perfection given our innate competitiveness and sometimes
lawless tendencies, but I would expect a reduced misery and a reduced
chance of self-destruction. After all, a herd mentality requires a
threshold number of similarly minded instigators, and if there are less
such instigators, there is a reduced likelihood to herd. Who do you
see as more likely to cause trouble, a group of like-minded fanatics
with a NO DOUBT belief system, or a tough looking group of rowdy
doubting Thomases?

Of course, since I am advocating a scientific, doubt based morality
over religious, NO DOUBT based moralities, some people will point out
the dark ways of some science and scientists. Science brought us the
A-bomb, and then the H-bomb. Since then, we have not had a third world
war, but thanks to the internet and other technologies, more people are
rising up the economic rungs worldwide, and gamma knives kill brain
tumors. We still do, however, constantly suffer too many regional
religious conflicts-witness our conflict against Islamic fanatics
replete with beautiful beheadings in the name of Allah. On the
personal level, certainly there have been, and there still are evil
scientists absolutely convinced of their nefarious theories who get
tempted to play gods. But there also have been, and there still are
evil priests and popes who like to play god. These points, picking out
individuals from a population, are not the point. Scientists do not
make the scientific method any more than religious leaders make up
religion. By the way, history records that fifty-nine A-bomb scientists
signed a petition to President Truman asking him to demonstrate the
bomb's power to the Japanese on a remote island. In the end, given the
stiffening Japanese resistance as American forces neared Japan, the
historical record leads me to conclude that many more American and
Japanese lives were spared with the use of Fat Man and Little Boy than
would otherwise have been.

Ultimately, a non-religious humanity following a doubt-based morality
is not guaranteed survival. A humongous comet may yet squash us like
the bugs we are-splat! We humans, because we are innately
competitive, and have difficulties with basic morality (e.g., we kill,
steal, cheat, often in the name of some god) may yet treat ourselves to
nuclear winter or death by advanced viral weapons. Given our history,
it seems arguably less likely that such a end might happen to us if we
gave up NO DOUBT.

As for our personal salvation, if and until we figure out how to cure
aging and disease, and perhaps transform ourselves into more advanced
types of indefinitely long lived beings, we die, and our lives will
have had no meaning other than, perhaps, the quality of our children we
raised, and what we contributed to the betterment of humanity while we
lived. Eventually, though, as Marcus Aurelius noted, even this
personal meaning to our lives would fade into time immemorial. I'm
pretty sure of one thing. If there is a Christian-like god out there,
a god who blames our flaws on us, not He, the Creator, and is so petty
that It needs my worship else It sends me to Hell,

Or is so weak that it has to have blasphemy laws to protect its reputation.
well then, send my

credentials to the house of detention. I've got some friends in
there-friends who died in foxholes.

Sincerely,

Alex Alaniz, Ph.D.
Author of Beyond Future Shock

Mostly agreed.
Smiler
The godless one.
.
User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: Error bars and a hypothetical philosophy of secular, humble arrogance 02 Dec 2006 11:51:23 PM
On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 01:57:07 GMT, "Smiler" <Smiler@Joe.King.com>
wrote:

<akalaniz@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165044129.754448.234610@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

An atheist I am not, for this would mean having faith in the
non-existence of some deity or deities.

Atheists have no faith of any kind.

Most atheists have faith in many things. The only thing linking all
atheists is lack of theism.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Christians tell us that they love their enemies, and yet all I ask
is - not that they love their friends even, but they treat those
who differ from them , with simple fairness. We do not wish to be
forgiven but we wish Christians to so act that we will not have
to forgive them."
- Robert Ingersoll
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
This signature was made by SigChanger.
You can find SigChanger at: http://www.phranc.nl/
.


User: "Mark D J. Mark D"

Title: Re: Error bars and a hypothetical philosophy of secular, humble arrogance 02 Dec 2006 01:35:19 AM
<akalaniz@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165044129.754448.234610@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

An atheist I am not, for this would mean having faith in the
non-existence of some deity or deities.

Bzzzt. Wrong in your very first sentence. Try again.
M.
.

User: "Mark D J. Mark D"

Title: Re: Error bars and a hypothetical philosophy of secular, humble arrogance 02 Dec 2006 01:35:02 AM
<akalaniz@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165044129.754448.234610@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

An atheist I am not, for this would mean having faith in the
non-existence of some deity or deities. Nor do I have faith in the
existence of any particular god or gods. As a physicist, I keep my
belief systems within the error bars of inductive experience. I use
Occam's razor. I think that it is more likely that infinities of
universes exist, some too tough to spawn life, some just right for life
to self organize and evolve, than the notion that we are the flawed,
free willed spawn of some perfect, omniscient god-a concept which
should already be doubly illogical for those brave enough to risk their
immortal souls by using some small portion of their brain.

I would be greatly surprised if I tossed a rock skywards and it stayed
the course, because my expectation is for it to cut-and-run, and fall
back towards the Earth. But who knows? Physical "law" is based on
inductive logic, and induction cannot guarantee the future. When we
repeat an experiment over and over, and see the same general behavior
again and again, we gain confidence in the future repeatability of our
experience, but we should never extrapolate our finitely gained
confidence with absolute faith. If you push a long, stiff wire upwards
more and more over your head, it typically reaches a tipping point and
bends over under its own weight-as our global climate might soon do
under our weight. Physical constants which we may not yet have
detected, and which might drive our inductively produced physical laws,
may be evolving, and may suddenly lead to a tipping point of whole new,
unexpected and unprecedented behaviors. Stephen Hawking himself
wonders, "whether it is possible to formulate a single theory of the
universe in a finite number of statements." Who knows? We should
therefore be humble to a point, but we should also be arrogant enough
to press on, say, with looking for cures to cancer based on past
research and experience. A childhood leukemia was a death sentence in
1956, and unless prayer has become far more effective in modern
nations, cure rates are now quite high in 2006 due to modern medicine.

Well done science is in great part about building expectations
inductively. The word expectation in science means "mean." In
principle, there is a mean (expected) human height, but most humans are
of average height, an average being a range of heights to the left and
right of the mean. But because our rulers are imperfect, and can never
be made perfect-rulers also typically expand when hot and contract
when cold-and because our eyes aren't perfect, and so on, we can
never truly know with perfection what the actual human mean height is
at any given moment, even if we could somehow sample every human being
at the same moment in time-another physical impossibility. Thus,
just as with the ubiquitous sampled political poll, a range of error,
which we can estimate, is inherent in the value for mean human height.
Because of this inherent error, well done science is also about
continually looking for cracks in well done science. We are still
testing relativity and quantum mechanics, and will continue to do so,
not because we expect a radical change necessarily, but rather a
continual refinement of our testable hypotheses. Sorry creation
science-if you have no testable hypothesis, you're not really a
science.

Almost by definition, faith equals NO DOUBT and conversely. Faith also
defines a belief system with no error bars. A faith based belief
system can be as pernicious to science as to morality because it too
readily admits illogical, nonsensical foundations. Immanuel Kant
believed that without religion, or at least faith in a god, morality
and civilization could not survive for long. I doubt this. Rather, it
seems more likely that religion and organized faith in some god,
coupled with today's energy and resource crises, and nuclear weapons
proliferation in the hands of Muslim radicals, may end civilization, if
not humanity out right. North Korea's Dear Leader wants oil and food
for his nation in which Buddhism, Confucianism and some Christianity is
practiced. Muslim radicals want us to meet Allah in a mushroom cloud
so that He can sort us out.

In fact, time and again history has shown that under a moral philosophy
of NO DOUBT entire hordes of religiously motivated people of faith have
maimed and butchered children, burned witches, lynched blacks, killed
homosexuals, oppressed women, burned books, imprisoned scholars,
pillaged, plundered and razed entire civilizations, and slowly
eviscerated other peoples. And these religiously motivated people
committed, and continue to commit these crimes and atrocities against
humanity without a doubt in their minds for they were and are following
the will of their god, NO DOUBT. This is not to say that people of
faith based organized religion don't do some "good" work some of
the time. I'm sure that some nominal fraction of organized church
monies, for example, goes into cancer research and other good causes,
but what fraction? Half? I doubt it. Grand expensive churches, and
other expenses Jesus would have approved of, like money to "values"
pandering politicians and their political action committees can be
murder on their cash flows. But why do these people of good faith do
this "good" work to begin with? Is it out of the goodness of their
own hearts, or for the reward of life after death for Christians, or a
harem for Islamic suicide bombers? The religious, it can be argued, do
"good" work more to save their own skins than the skins of those
they wish to "save", like the American natives. Any claimed
sincerity on a religious person's part is innately questionable,
which leads me to propose an alternative, science based morality and
social contract for the future sake of humanity.

Imagine a hypothetical world where people shunned NO DOUBT faith
whatsoever, and instead searched for demonstrable, defendable,
repeatable facts with good science practice and sound logic. Instead
of trying to "help" each other out by trying to "save" each
other with ropes and bullets, these people might try to get along
without stealing, cheating or killing because it's good for a
secular, democratic civilization of laws, and such a civilization
(producing modern leukemia treatments) is good for them. I would not
expect perfection given our innate competitiveness and sometimes
lawless tendencies, but I would expect a reduced misery and a reduced
chance of self-destruction. After all, a herd mentality requires a
threshold number of similarly minded instigators, and if there are less
such instigators, there is a reduced likelihood to herd. Who do you
see as more likely to cause trouble, a group of like-minded fanatics
with a NO DOUBT belief system, or a tough looking group of rowdy
doubting Thomases?

Of course, since I am advocating a scientific, doubt based morality
over religious, NO DOUBT based moralities, some people will point out
the dark ways of some science and scientists. Science brought us the
A-bomb, and then the H-bomb. Since then, we have not had a third world
war, but thanks to the internet and other technologies, more people are
rising up the economic rungs worldwide, and gamma knives kill brain
tumors. We still do, however, constantly suffer too many regional
religious conflicts-witness our conflict against Islamic fanatics
replete with beautiful beheadings in the name of Allah. On the
personal level, certainly there have been, and there still are evil
scientists absolutely convinced of their nefarious theories who get
tempted to play gods. But there also have been, and there still are
evil priests and popes who like to play god. These points, picking out
individuals from a population, are not the point. Scientists do not
make the scientific method any more than religious leaders make up
religion. By the way, history records that fifty-nine A-bomb scientists
signed a petition to President Truman asking him to demonstrate the
bomb's power to the Japanese on a remote island. In the end, given the
stiffening Japanese resistance as American forces neared Japan, the
historical record leads me to conclude that many more American and
Japanese lives were spared with the use of Fat Man and Little Boy than
would otherwise have been.

Ultimately, a non-religious humanity following a doubt-based morality
is not guaranteed survival. A humongous comet may yet squash us like
the bugs we are-splat! We humans, because we are innately
competitive, and have difficulties with basic morality (e.g., we kill,
steal, cheat, often in the name of some god) may yet treat ourselves to
nuclear winter or death by advanced viral weapons. Given our history,
it seems arguably less likely that such a end might happen to us if we
gave up NO DOUBT.

As for our personal salvation, if and until we figure out how to cure
aging and disease, and perhaps transform ourselves into more advanced
types of indefinitely long lived beings, we die, and our lives will
have had no meaning other than, perhaps, the quality of our children we
raised, and what we contributed to the betterment of humanity while we
lived. Eventually, though, as Marcus Aurelius noted, even this
personal meaning to our lives would fade into time immemorial. I'm
pretty sure of one thing. If there is a Christian-like god out there,
a god who blames our flaws on us, not He, the Creator, and is so petty
that It needs my worship else It sends me to Hell, well then, send my
credentials to the house of detention. I've got some friends in
there-friends who died in foxholes.

Listen, let's cut to the chase here:
Are you seriously suggesting that the theist's *complete absence of evidence
supporting the existence of his preferred 'god'* somehow has 'error bars'
around it?
If so, are you seriously suggesting that the *complete absence of evidence
supporting the existence of unicorns* also has 'error bars' around it?
And if you think the two cases deserve to be treated differently, would you
mind please explaining why...?
Thanks.
M.
.

User: "Greywolf"

Title: Re: Error bars and a hypothetical philosophy of secular, humble arrogance 02 Dec 2006 04:56:56 AM
<akalaniz@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165044129.754448.234610@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

An atheist I am not, for this would mean having faith in the
non-existence of some deity or deities. Nor do I have faith in the
existence of any particular god or gods. As a physicist, I keep my
belief systems within the error bars of inductive experience. I use
Occam's razor. I think that it is more likely that infinities of
universes exist, some too tough to spawn life, some just right for life
to self organize and evolve, than the notion that we are the flawed,
free willed spawn of some perfect, omniscient god-a concept which
should already be doubly illogical for those brave enough to risk their
immortal souls by using some small portion of their brain.

I would be greatly surprised if I tossed a rock skywards and it stayed
the course, because my expectation is for it to cut-and-run, and fall
back towards the Earth. But who knows? Physical "law" is based on
inductive logic, and induction cannot guarantee the future. When we
repeat an experiment over and over, and see the same general behavior
again and again, we gain confidence in the future repeatability of our
experience, but we should never extrapolate our finitely gained
confidence with absolute faith. If you push a long, stiff wire upwards
more and more over your head, it typically reaches a tipping point and
bends over under its own weight-as our global climate might soon do
under our weight. Physical constants which we may not yet have
detected, and which might drive our inductively produced physical laws,
may be evolving, and may suddenly lead to a tipping point of whole new,
unexpected and unprecedented behaviors. Stephen Hawking himself
wonders, "whether it is possible to formulate a single theory of the
universe in a finite number of statements." Who knows? We should
therefore be humble to a point, but we should also be arrogant enough
to press on, say, with looking for cures to cancer based on past
research and experience. A childhood leukemia was a death sentence in
1956, and unless prayer has become far more effective in modern
nations, cure rates are now quite high in 2006 due to modern medicine.

Well done science is in great part about building expectations
inductively. The word expectation in science means "mean." In
principle, there is a mean (expected) human height, but most humans are
of average height, an average being a range of heights to the left and
right of the mean. But because our rulers are imperfect, and can never
be made perfect-rulers also typically expand when hot and contract
when cold-and because our eyes aren't perfect, and so on, we can
never truly know with perfection what the actual human mean height is
at any given moment, even if we could somehow sample every human being
at the same moment in time-another physical impossibility. Thus,
just as with the ubiquitous sampled political poll, a range of error,
which we can estimate, is inherent in the value for mean human height.
Because of this inherent error, well done science is also about
continually looking for cracks in well done science. We are still
testing relativity and quantum mechanics, and will continue to do so,
not because we expect a radical change necessarily, but rather a
continual refinement of our testable hypotheses. Sorry creation
science-if you have no testable hypothesis, you're not really a
science.

Almost by definition, faith equals NO DOUBT and conversely. Faith also
defines a belief system with no error bars. A faith based belief
system can be as pernicious to science as to morality because it too
readily admits illogical, nonsensical foundations. Immanuel Kant
believed that without religion, or at least faith in a god, morality
and civilization could not survive for long. I doubt this. Rather, it
seems more likely that religion and organized faith in some god,
coupled with today's energy and resource crises, and nuclear weapons
proliferation in the hands of Muslim radicals, may end civilization, if
not humanity out right. North Korea's Dear Leader wants oil and food
for his nation in which Buddhism, Confucianism and some Christianity is
practiced. Muslim radicals want us to meet Allah in a mushroom cloud
so that He can sort us out.

In fact, time and again history has shown that under a moral philosophy
of NO DOUBT entire hordes of religiously motivated people of faith have
maimed and butchered children, burned witches, lynched blacks, killed
homosexuals, oppressed women, burned books, imprisoned scholars,
pillaged, plundered and razed entire civilizations, and slowly
eviscerated other peoples. And these religiously motivated people
committed, and continue to commit these crimes and atrocities against
humanity without a doubt in their minds for they were and are following
the will of their god, NO DOUBT. This is not to say that people of
faith based organized religion don't do some "good" work some of
the time. I'm sure that some nominal fraction of organized church
monies, for example, goes into cancer research and other good causes,
but what fraction? Half? I doubt it. Grand expensive churches, and
other expenses Jesus would have approved of, like money to "values"
pandering politicians and their political action committees can be
murder on their cash flows. But why do these people of good faith do
this "good" work to begin with? Is it out of the goodness of their
own hearts, or for the reward of life after death for Christians, or a
harem for Islamic suicide bombers? The religious, it can be argued, do
"good" work more to save their own skins than the skins of those
they wish to "save", like the American natives. Any claimed
sincerity on a religious person's part is innately questionable,
which leads me to propose an alternative, science based morality and
social contract for the future sake of humanity.

Imagine a hypothetical world where people shunned NO DOUBT faith
whatsoever, and instead searched for demonstrable, defendable,
repeatable facts with good science practice and sound logic. Instead
of trying to "help" each other out by trying to "save" each
other with ropes and bullets, these people might try to get along
without stealing, cheating or killing because it's good for a
secular, democratic civilization of laws, and such a civilization
(producing modern leukemia treatments) is good for them. I would not
expect perfection given our innate competitiveness and sometimes
lawless tendencies, but I would expect a reduced misery and a reduced
chance of self-destruction. After all, a herd mentality requires a
threshold number of similarly minded instigators, and if there are less
such instigators, there is a reduced likelihood to herd. Who do you
see as more likely to cause trouble, a group of like-minded fanatics
with a NO DOUBT belief system, or a tough looking group of rowdy
doubting Thomases?

Of course, since I am advocating a scientific, doubt based morality
over religious, NO DOUBT based moralities, some people will point out
the dark ways of some science and scientists. Science brought us the
A-bomb, and then the H-bomb. Since then, we have not had a third world
war, but thanks to the internet and other technologies, more people are
rising up the economic rungs worldwide, and gamma knives kill brain
tumors. We still do, however, constantly suffer too many regional
religious conflicts-witness our conflict against Islamic fanatics
replete with beautiful beheadings in the name of Allah. On the
personal level, certainly there have been, and there still are evil
scientists absolutely convinced of their nefarious theories who get
tempted to play gods. But there also have been, and there still are
evil priests and popes who like to play god. These points, picking out
individuals from a population, are not the point. Scientists do not
make the scientific method any more than religious leaders make up
religion. By the way, history records that fifty-nine A-bomb scientists
signed a petition to President Truman asking him to demonstrate the
bomb's power to the Japanese on a remote island. In the end, given the
stiffening Japanese resistance as American forces neared Japan, the
historical record leads me to conclude that many more American and
Japanese lives were spared with the use of Fat Man and Little Boy than
would otherwise have been.

Ultimately, a non-religious humanity following a doubt-based morality
is not guaranteed survival. A humongous comet may yet squash us like
the bugs we are-splat! We humans, because we are innately
competitive, and have difficulties with basic morality (e.g., we kill,
steal, cheat, often in the name of some god) may yet treat ourselves to
nuclear winter or death by advanced viral weapons. Given our history,
it seems arguably less likely that such a end might happen to us if we
gave up NO DOUBT.

As for our personal salvation, if and until we figure out how to cure
aging and disease, and perhaps transform ourselves into more advanced
types of indefinitely long lived beings, we die, and our lives will
have had no meaning other than, perhaps, the quality of our children we
raised, and what we contributed to the betterment of humanity while we
lived. Eventually, though, as Marcus Aurelius noted, even this
personal meaning to our lives would fade into time immemorial. I'm
pretty sure of one thing. If there is a Christian-like god out there,
a god who blames our flaws on us, not He, the Creator, and is so petty
that It needs my worship else It sends me to Hell, well then, send my
credentials to the house of detention. I've got some friends in
there-friends who died in foxholes.

Sincerely,

Alex Alaniz, Ph.D.
Author of Beyond Future Shock

Although I believe you said something you didn't *really* mean to convey as
written -- meaning that you intended to write something more along the lines
as, '... this would mean having a certain sense of *certainty* in the
non-existence of ... ' (I dunno, can't say for certain.) I agree with the
vast bulk of what you said, though. And in my humble opinion -- in a well
written way.
Open to attack on this one.
Greywolf
.

User: "NC"

Title: Re: Error bars and a hypothetical philosophy of secular, humble arrogance 02 Dec 2006 03:22:29 AM
wrote:

An atheist I am not, for this would mean having faith in the
non-existence of>>>SLAP<<<

Well done, putting that at the top saved me some wasted time...
<*PLONK*>
.

User: "Don Kresch"

Title: Re: Error bars and a hypothetical philosophy of secular, humble arrogance 02 Dec 2006 07:59:52 AM
In alt.atheism On 1 Dec 2006 23:22:09 -0800,
let us
all know that:

An atheist I am not, for this would mean having faith in the
non-existence of some deity or deities.

Lying troll.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
.

User: "Lars Eighner"

Title: Re: Error bars and a hypothetical philosophy of secular, humble arrogance 02 Dec 2006 01:53:43 AM
In our last episode,
<1165044129.754448.234610@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented

broadcast on alt.atheism:

An atheist I am not, for this would mean having faith in the
non-existence of some deity or deities.

No, it doesn't.

Nor do I have faith in the
existence of any particular god or gods.

Then you are an athiest.
1) "I believe (a) god(s) exist(s)."
If you do not agrree with 1) or one of its variants, then you are an
atheist. That's all atheism means: not having a belief in god(s).
If you refuse to agree with 1) or one of its variants for any reason,
including that you do not have sufficient information to agree, you are an
atheist. If you think 1) or one of it variants might be true, but you
do not believe it, you are an atheist.
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner>
Save the Rainforest! Eat a vegetarian!
.

User: "Michael Gray"

Title: Re: Error bars and a hypothetical philosophy of secular, humble arrogance 02 Dec 2006 03:49:02 AM
On 1 Dec 2006 23:22:09 -0800,
wrote:
- Refer: <1165044129.754448.234610@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

An atheist I am not, for this would mean having faith in the
non-existence of some deity or deities.

:
I'm guessing that your PhD is faked.
--
.

User: "John Baker"

Title: Re: Error bars and a hypothetical philosophy of secular, humble arrogance 02 Dec 2006 02:04:42 AM
On 1 Dec 2006 23:22:09 -0800,
wrote:

An atheist I am not, for this would mean having faith in the
non-existence of some deity or deities.

As a scientist, you surely must understand that rejecting a claim for
which there is no supporting evidence does not require an act of
faith.
.

User: "Mark K. Bilbo"

Title: Re: Error bars and a hypothetical philosophy of secular, humblearrogance 02 Dec 2006 05:36:47 AM
On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 23:22:09 -0800, akalaniz wrote:

An atheist I am not, for this would mean having faith in the
non-existence of some deity or deities.

No, it doesn't.
--
Mark K. Bilbo
------------------------------------------------------------
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism,
because it is a merger of State and corporate power."
- Mussolini
.


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