| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"J Young" |
| Date: |
17 Apr 2007 11:50:52 PM |
| Object: |
EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
Thank God that we here in America have our First Amendment. I cannot
imagine not being able to discuss openly and honestly an event of such
alleged magnitude. You would think people would want all the evidence
to be examined; the better to silence holocaust deniers. The EU should
re-evaluate these proposed laws.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/122134be-ed14-11db-9520-000b5df10621.html
Laws that make denying or trivialising the Holocaust a criminal
offence punishable by jail sentences will be introduced across the
European Union, according to a proposal expecting to win backing from
ministers Thursday.
Offenders will face up to three years in jail under the proposed
legislation, which will also apply to inciting violence against
ethnic, religious or national groups.
Diplomats in Brussels voiced confidence on Tuesday that the
controversial plan, which has been the subject of heated debate for
six years, will be endorsed by member states. However, the Baltic
countries and Poland are still holding out for an inclusion of
"Stalinist crimes" alongside the Holocaust in the text - a move that
is being resisted by the majority of other EU countries.
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| User: "Santolina chamaecyparissus" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 01:49:03 PM |
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http://www.ft.com/cms/s/122134be-ed14-11db-9520-000b5df10621.html
Laws that make denying or trivialising the Holocaust a criminal
offence punishable by jail sentences will be introduced across the
European Union, according to a proposal expecting to win backing from
ministers Thursday.
J Young on the right side of an issue? The Apocalypse is nigh.
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| User: "Robert" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 07:28:40 PM |
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On 18 Apr 2007 11:49:03 -0700, Santolina chamaecyparissus
<santolina@juno.com> wrote:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/122134be-ed14-11db-9520-000b5df10621.html
Laws that make denying or trivialising the Holocaust a criminal
offence punishable by jail sentences will be introduced across the
European Union, according to a proposal expecting to win backing from
ministers Thursday.
J Young on the right side of an issue? The Apocalypse is nigh.
Nope the ***** hole is still on the wrong side with you. Why do you
conservatives hate freedom so much?
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "Santolina chamaecyparissus" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 06:08:30 PM |
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On Apr 18, 5:28 pm, Robert <rob...@netportusa.com> wrote:
On 18 Apr 2007 11:49:03 -0700, Santolina chamaecyparissus
<santol...@juno.com> wrote:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/122134be-ed14-11db-9520-000b5df10621.html
Laws that make denying or trivialising the Holocaust a criminal
offence punishable by jail sentences will be introduced across the
European Union, according to a proposal expecting to win backing from
ministers Thursday.
J Young on the right side of an issue? The Apocalypse is nigh.
Nope the ***** hole is still on the wrong side with you.
No, he's on the side of free expression this time, though probably by
complete accident.
Why do you conservatives
?
hate freedom so much?
That makes no sense, so I can't respond to it. A better question
would be why Young hates freedom most of the time but loves it in this
instance.
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| User: "Ray Fischer" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 11:25:03 AM |
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J Young <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
Thank God that we here in America have our First Amendment.
Which you hate.
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 12:40:07 PM |
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On 18 Apr., 18:25, (Ray Fischer) wrote:
J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:
Thank God that we here in America have our First Amendment.
Which you hate.
It is ironic that he thanks god for living in a country with freedom
of speech, in consideration of the Catholic Church's position on such
freedom.
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| User: "TheLetterK" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 01:41:04 PM |
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J Young wrote:
Thank God that we here in America have our First Amendment. I cannot
imagine not being able to discuss openly and honestly an event of such
alleged magnitude. You would think people would want all the evidence
to be examined; the better to silence holocaust deniers. The EU should
re-evaluate these proposed laws.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/122134be-ed14-11db-9520-000b5df10621.html
Laws that make denying or trivialising the Holocaust a criminal
offence punishable by jail sentences will be introduced across the
European Union, according to a proposal expecting to win backing from
ministers Thursday.
Offenders will face up to three years in jail under the proposed
legislation, which will also apply to inciting violence against
ethnic, religious or national groups.
Diplomats in Brussels voiced confidence on Tuesday that the
controversial plan, which has been the subject of heated debate for
six years, will be endorsed by member states. However, the Baltic
countries and Poland are still holding out for an inclusion of
"Stalinist crimes" alongside the Holocaust in the text - a move that
is being resisted by the majority of other EU countries.
I'm no expert on European law, but wouldn't this be a violation of the
the Maastricht Treaty? IIRC, don't they agree to protect human rights,
as defined by the European Convention on Human rights?
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 05:21:23 AM |
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On 17 Apr 2007 21:50:52 -0700, J Young <youngopinions@aol.com> wrote:
Thank God that we here in America have our First Amendment. I cannot
imagine not being able to discuss openly and honestly an event of such
alleged magnitude.
Translation: I can't imagine not being allowed to lie my racist,
sexist, homophobic, anti-Semitic, Holocaust-denying ***** off and hope
gullible fools will believe me.
Oddly enough, IBen, I agree with you on this one. Laws *shouldn't* be
passed that outlaw *any* type of speech, no matter how wrong-headed.
That, however, doesn't change the fact that you're a lying sack of
***** who abuses the First Amendment every time you sit down at your
keyboard.
You would think people would want all the evidence
to be examined; the better to silence holocaust deniers. The EU should
re-evaluate these proposed laws.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/122134be-ed14-11db-9520-000b5df10621.html
Laws that make denying or trivialising the Holocaust a criminal
offence punishable by jail sentences will be introduced across the
European Union, according to a proposal expecting to win backing from
ministers Thursday.
Offenders will face up to three years in jail under the proposed
legislation, which will also apply to inciting violence against
ethnic, religious or national groups.
Diplomats in Brussels voiced confidence on Tuesday that the
controversial plan, which has been the subject of heated debate for
six years, will be endorsed by member states. However, the Baltic
countries and Poland are still holding out for an inclusion of
"Stalinist crimes" alongside the Holocaust in the text - a move that
is being resisted by the majority of other EU countries.
.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 09:08:28 AM |
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On 17 Apr 2007 21:50:52 -0700, in alt.atheism , J Young
<youngopinions@aol.com> in
<1176871852.526061.129910@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Thank God that we here in America have our First Amendment. I cannot
imagine not being able to discuss openly and honestly an event of such
alleged magnitude.
Must be a ***** to be you. So nasty and so hate filled and you have to
pretend to be Catholic.
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
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| User: "Binyamin Cramer" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 09:09:11 AM |
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"Matt Silberstein" <RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
message news:hh9c23hlvs1c0tdas06iu60rjm9ist1aee@4ax.com...
On 17 Apr 2007 21:50:52 -0700, in alt.atheism , J Young
<youngopinions@aol.com> in
<1176871852.526061.129910@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Thank God that we here in America have our First Amendment. I cannot
imagine not being able to discuss openly and honestly an event of such
alleged magnitude.
Must be a ***** to be you. So nasty and so hate filled and you have to
pretend to be Catholic.
It's you yehoodies who have the monopoly on hatred, Ikey.
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| User: "george" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 04:09:05 PM |
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On Apr 19, 2:08 am, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nos...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On 17 Apr 2007 21:50:52 -0700, in alt.atheism , J Young
<youngopini...@aol.com> in
<1176871852.526061.129...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> wrote:
Thank God that we here in America have our First Amendment. I cannot
imagine not being able to discuss openly and honestly an event of such
alleged magnitude.
Must be a ***** to be you. So nasty and so hate filled and you have to
pretend to be Catholic.
Seeing that his 'god' and his 'holy book' are Jewish in origin.....
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| User: "Parsifal" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 12:47:57 AM |
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On 18 avr, 06:50, J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:
Thank God that we here in America have our First Amendment. I cannot
imagine not being able to discuss openly and honestly an event of such
alleged magnitude. You would think people would want all the evidence
to be examined; the better to silence holocaust deniers. The EU should
re-evaluate these proposed laws.
How would Americans -and the rest of the world- react if Germans were
allowed to deny or even to joke with the Holocaust? That's why such
law -thankfully- exists.
Nazi turds like you who always confuses freedom of speech and hate
speech.
Besides, why do you want the freedom to deny the Holocaust but not the
one to criticize your sect? Why are you such a hypocrite?
How would you react in front of people making fun of 9 \ 11? Of Pearl
Harbour?
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
20 Apr 2007 11:52:35 AM |
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On Apr 18, 1:47 am, Parsifal <jeanpascalvac...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 18 avr, 06:50, J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:
Thank God that we here in America have our First Amendment. I cannot
imagine not being able to discuss openly and honestly an event of such
alleged magnitude. You would think people would want all the evidence
to be examined; the better to silence holocaust deniers. The EU should
re-evaluate these proposed laws.
How would Americans -and the rest of the world- react if Germans were
allowed to deny or even to joke with the Holocaust? That's why such
law -thankfully- exists.
Nazi turds like you who always confuses freedom of speech and hate
speech.
Besides, why do you want the freedom to deny the Holocaust but not the
one to criticize your sect? Why are you such a hypocrite?
How would you react in front of people making fun of 9 \ 11? Of Pearl
Harbour?
Holocaust denial is a sure sign of stupidity.
If some ***** wants to look stupid, why stop him/her?
It's not like they're going to convince anybody.
And now you have a flawless excuse for ducking Morons.
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| User: "Pastor Kutchie, ordained atheist minister" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 01:56:25 AM |
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On Apr 18, 5:50 am, J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:
Thank God that we here in America have our First Amendment. I cannot
imagine not being able to discuss openly and honestly an event of such
alleged magnitude. You would think people would want all the evidence
to be examined; the better to silence holocaust deniers. The EU should
re-evaluate these proposed laws.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/122134be-ed14-11db-9520-000b5df10621.html
Laws that make denying or trivialising the Holocaust a criminal
offence punishable by jail sentences will be introduced across the
European Union, according to a proposal expecting to win backing from
ministers Thursday.
Offenders will face up to three years in jail under the proposed
legislation, which will also apply to inciting violence against
ethnic, religious or national groups.
Diplomats in Brussels voiced confidence on Tuesday that the
controversial plan, which has been the subject of heated debate for
six years, will be endorsed by member states. However, the Baltic
countries and Poland are still holding out for an inclusion of
"Stalinist crimes" alongside the Holocaust in the text - a move that
is being resisted by the majority of other EU countries.
Firstly, the holocaust is a settled matter of fact. There were trials,
there were masses of evidence and there was a string of convictions.
Secondly, nobody is denying Stalin's crimes, apart from disputing the
more ludicrous figures that are bandied about. Holocaust denial, OTOH,
is a politically motivated, focussed and serious problem, which you,
iBen are part of. The law is there to take care of this problem, so
that vigilantes with baseball bats don't have to.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 12:36:08 PM |
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On 18 Apr., 08:56, "Pastor Kutchie, ordained atheist minister"
<use...@heathens.org.uk> wrote:
On Apr 18, 5:50 am, J Young <youngopini...@aol.com> wrote:
Thank God that we here in America have our First Amendment. I cannot
imagine not being able to discuss openly and honestly an event of such
alleged magnitude. You would think people would want all the evidence
to be examined; the better to silence holocaust deniers. The EU should
re-evaluate these proposed laws.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/122134be-ed14-11db-9520-000b5df10621.html
Laws that make denying or trivialising the Holocaust a criminal
offence punishable by jail sentences will be introduced across the
European Union, according to a proposal expecting to win backing from
ministers Thursday.
Offenders will face up to three years in jail under the proposed
legislation, which will also apply to inciting violence against
ethnic, religious or national groups.
Diplomats in Brussels voiced confidence on Tuesday that the
controversial plan, which has been the subject of heated debate for
six years, will be endorsed by member states. However, the Baltic
countries and Poland are still holding out for an inclusion of
"Stalinist crimes" alongside the Holocaust in the text - a move that
is being resisted by the majority of other EU countries.
Firstly, the holocaust is a settled matter of fact. There were trials,
there were masses of evidence and there was a string of convictions.
Secondly, nobody is denying Stalin's crimes, apart from disputing the
more ludicrous figures that are bandied about. Holocaust denial, OTOH,
is a politically motivated, focussed and serious problem, which you,
iBen are part of. The law is there to take care of this problem, so
that vigilantes with baseball bats don't have to.- Skjul tekst i anf=F8rs=
elstegn -
Furthermore the law does not specifically forbid denying the
holocaust. From the article:
"They will also have to criminalise "publicly condoning, denying or
grossly trivialising crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity and
war crimes" when such statements incite hatred or violence against
minorities."
Clearly it is not denial as such that is being forbidden but the use
of it in promoting hatred of minorities. Of course it is hard to
imagine any other purpose for denying the Holocaust.
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| User: "Robert" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 04:13:30 PM |
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On 18 Apr 2007 10:36:08 -0700, wrote:
Clearly it is not denial as such that is being forbidden but the use
of it in promoting hatred of minorities. Of course it is hard to
imagine any other purpose for denying the Holocaust.
How about telling the truth, is that not a good purpose?
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
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| User: "Kenneth McVay OBC" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 02:36:28 PM |
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In article <kd2d231f4se8rjhsp9qmugaklqh565lpbi@4ax.com>,
Robert <robpar@netportusa.com> wrote:
On 18 Apr 2007 10:36:08 -0700, wrote:
Clearly it is not denial as such that is being forbidden but the use
of it in promoting hatred of minorities. Of course it is hard to
imagine any other purpose for denying the Holocaust.
How about telling the truth, is that not a good purpose?
Holocaust denial has absolutely no relationship to truth.
--
"Only anti-Christs, babykillers, homose, Pharisees, commies
and other such filth don't like me." (Bellville's Scott
Bradbury, Texas' leading revisionist scholar)
The Nizkor Project: http://www.nizkor.org/
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 11:17:28 PM |
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On 18 Apr., 21:36, (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
In article <kd2d231f4se8rjhsp9qmugaklqh565l...@4ax.com>,
Robert <rob...@netportusa.com> wrote:
On 18 Apr 2007 10:36:08 -0700, wrote:
Clearly it is not denial as such that is being forbidden but the use
of it in promoting hatred of minorities. Of course it is hard to
imagine any other purpose for denying the Holocaust.
How about telling the truth, is that not a good purpose?
Holocaust denial has absolutely no relationship to truth.
Nor does his post.
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| User: "snex" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 05:33:11 PM |
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On Apr 18, 2:36 pm, (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
In article <kd2d231f4se8rjhsp9qmugaklqh565l...@4ax.com>,
Robert <rob...@netportusa.com> wrote:
On 18 Apr 2007 10:36:08 -0700, wrote:
Clearly it is not denial as such that is being forbidden but the use
of it in promoting hatred of minorities. Of course it is hard to
imagine any other purpose for denying the Holocaust.
How about telling the truth, is that not a good purpose?
Holocaust denial has absolutely no relationship to truth.
but how would you ever know that if it is instituted as unquestionable
dogma?
--
"Only anti-Christs, babykillers, homose, Pharisees, commies
and other such filth don't like me." (Bellville's Scott
Bradbury, Texas' leading revisionist scholar)
The Nizkor Project: http://www.nizkor.org/
.
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| User: "Kenneth McVay OBC" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
19 Apr 2007 11:16:49 AM |
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In article <1176935591.527785.50240@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
snex <snex@comcast.net> wrote:
On Apr 18, 2:36 pm, (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
In article <kd2d231f4se8rjhsp9qmugaklqh565l...@4ax.com>,
Robert <rob...@netportusa.com> wrote:
On 18 Apr 2007 10:36:08 -0700, wrote:
Clearly it is not denial as such that is being forbidden but the use
of it in promoting hatred of minorities. Of course it is hard to
imagine any other purpose for denying the Holocaust.
How about telling the truth, is that not a good purpose?
Holocaust denial has absolutely no relationship to truth.
but how would you ever know that if it is instituted as unquestionable
dogma?
Since that has not occured, your question is moot.
--
Ken McVay http://www.nizkor.org
God grant me the Senility to forget the people I never liked anyway,
the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to
tell the difference.
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| User: "snex" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
19 Apr 2007 12:11:13 PM |
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On Apr 19, 11:16 am, (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
In article <1176935591.527785.50...@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
snex <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Apr 18, 2:36 pm, (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
In article <kd2d231f4se8rjhsp9qmugaklqh565l...@4ax.com>,
Robert <rob...@netportusa.com> wrote:
On 18 Apr 2007 10:36:08 -0700, wrote:
Clearly it is not denial as such that is being forbidden but the use
of it in promoting hatred of minorities. Of course it is hard to
imagine any other purpose for denying the Holocaust.
How about telling the truth, is that not a good purpose?
Holocaust denial has absolutely no relationship to truth.
but how would you ever know that if it is instituted as unquestionable
dogma?
Since that has not occured, your question is moot.
try reading the article again.
--
Ken McVay http://www.nizkor.org
God grant me the Senility to forget the people I never liked anyway,
the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to
tell the difference.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 07:05:08 PM |
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On 18-Apr-2007, snex <snex@comcast.net> wrote:
On Apr 18, 2:36 pm, (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
In article <kd2d231f4se8rjhsp9qmugaklqh565l...@4ax.com>,
Robert <rob...@netportusa.com> wrote:
On 18 Apr 2007 10:36:08 -0700, wrote:
Clearly it is not denial as such that is being forbidden but the use
of it in promoting hatred of minorities. Of course it is hard to
imagine any other purpose for denying the Holocaust.
How about telling the truth, is that not a good purpose?
Holocaust denial has absolutely no relationship to truth.
but how would you ever know that if it is instituted as unquestionable
dogma?
The way 2+2=4 is dogma?
But I'll answer anyway, and further expose you:
Simple: see where all the lies are directed.
Big Hint: see whose numbers are the oNLY ones EVER disputed.
Susan
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| User: "Binyamin Cramer" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
19 Apr 2007 04:09:17 AM |
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<flaviaR@verizon.net> wrote in message news:UmyVh.3252$Qp.2940@trnddc07...
On 18-Apr-2007, snex <snex@comcast.net> wrote:
On Apr 18, 2:36 pm, (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
In article <kd2d231f4se8rjhsp9qmugaklqh565l...@4ax.com>,
Robert <rob...@netportusa.com> wrote:
On 18 Apr 2007 10:36:08 -0700, wrote:
Clearly it is not denial as such that is being forbidden but the use
of it in promoting hatred of minorities. Of course it is hard to
imagine any other purpose for denying the Holocaust.
How about telling the truth, is that not a good purpose?
Holocaust denial has absolutely no relationship to truth.
but how would you ever know that if it is instituted as unquestionable
dogma?
The way 2+2=4 is dogma?
***** me dead, cohen. You should not mentione mathematics anywhere near the
holocaust(tm) debates. Yid maths pongs in that regard. You know 6m - 2.9m =
6m type of thing.
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| User: "snex" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
18 Apr 2007 11:26:19 PM |
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On Apr 18, 7:05 pm, wrote:
On 18-Apr-2007, snex <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Apr 18, 2:36 pm, (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
In article <kd2d231f4se8rjhsp9qmugaklqh565l...@4ax.com>,
Robert <rob...@netportusa.com> wrote:
On 18 Apr 2007 10:36:08 -0700, wrote:
Clearly it is not denial as such that is being forbidden but the use
of it in promoting hatred of minorities. Of course it is hard to
imagine any other purpose for denying the Holocaust.
How about telling the truth, is that not a good purpose?
Holocaust denial has absolutely no relationship to truth.
but how would you ever know that if it is instituted as unquestionable
dogma?
The way 2+2=4 is dogma?
But I'll answer anyway, and further expose you:
Simple: see where all the lies are directed.
Big Hint: see whose numbers are the oNLY ones EVER disputed.
Susan
2+2=4 isnt dogma. mathematicians do in fact debate its validity. check
out peano arithmetic.
but your answer isnt sufficient. you can only see where the lies are
if the liars are allowed to speak them. if those lies are made
illegal, they dont look so much like lies anymore, but rather
statements that the government fears somebody might hear.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
19 Apr 2007 08:08:22 AM |
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On 19-Apr-2007, snex <snex@comcast.net> wrote:
On Apr 18, 7:05 pm, wrote:
On 18-Apr-2007, snex <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Apr 18, 2:36 pm, (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
In article <kd2d231f4se8rjhsp9qmugaklqh565l...@4ax.com>,
Robert <rob...@netportusa.com> wrote:
On 18 Apr 2007 10:36:08 -0700, wrote:
Clearly it is not denial as such that is being forbidden but the
use
of it in promoting hatred of minorities. Of course it is hard to
imagine any other purpose for denying the Holocaust.
How about telling the truth, is that not a good purpose?
Holocaust denial has absolutely no relationship to truth.
but how would you ever know that if it is instituted as unquestionable
dogma?
The way 2+2=4 is dogma?
But I'll answer anyway, and further expose you:
Simple: see where all the lies are directed.
Big Hint: see whose numbers are the oNLY ones EVER disputed.
Susan
2+2=4 isnt dogma. mathematicians do in fact debate its validity. check
out peano arithmetic.
Grow up.
but your answer isnt sufficient. you can only see where the lies are
if the liars are allowed to speak them.
Which is not what you were saying above, thanks.
if those lies are made
illegal, they dont look so much like lies anymore, but rather
statements that the government fears somebody might hear.
Not at all.
Only to those who wish it to be so.
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| User: "Venceremos" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
20 Apr 2007 08:37:25 AM |
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Nothing is further from the truth. The EU legislation does not even
mention the Holofucks nor the word Jew. It is a legislation aimed at
protecting the rights of ALL the people against ALL forms of
discrimination or ridiculing the suffering the war victims.
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| User: "snex" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
19 Apr 2007 12:09:36 PM |
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On Apr 19, 8:08 am, wrote:
On 19-Apr-2007, snex <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Apr 18, 7:05 pm, wrote:
On 18-Apr-2007, snex <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Apr 18, 2:36 pm, (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
In article <kd2d231f4se8rjhsp9qmugaklqh565l...@4ax.com>,
Robert <rob...@netportusa.com> wrote:
On 18 Apr 2007 10:36:08 -0700, wrote:
Clearly it is not denial as such that is being forbidden but the
use
of it in promoting hatred of minorities. Of course it is hard to
imagine any other purpose for denying the Holocaust.
How about telling the truth, is that not a good purpose?
Holocaust denial has absolutely no relationship to truth.
but how would you ever know that if it is instituted as unquestionable
dogma?
The way 2+2=4 is dogma?
But I'll answer anyway, and further expose you:
Simple: see where all the lies are directed.
Big Hint: see whose numbers are the oNLY ones EVER disputed.
Susan
2+2=4 isnt dogma. mathematicians do in fact debate its validity. check
out peano arithmetic.
Grow up.
i hardly take discussions about advanced mathematics to be in the
domain of children.
but your answer isnt sufficient. you can only see where the lies are
if the liars are allowed to speak them.
Which is not what you were saying above, thanks.
yes, actually it is.
if those lies are made
illegal, they dont look so much like lies anymore, but rather
statements that the government fears somebody might hear.
Not at all.
Only to those who wish it to be so.
no, in reality. welcome to it.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
19 Apr 2007 01:25:30 PM |
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On 19-Apr-2007, snex <snex@comcast.net> wrote:
On Apr 19, 8:08 am, wrote:
On 19-Apr-2007, snex <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Apr 18, 7:05 pm, wrote:
On 18-Apr-2007, snex <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Apr 18, 2:36 pm, (Kenneth McVay OBC)
wrote:
In article <kd2d231f4se8rjhsp9qmugaklqh565l...@4ax.com>,
Robert <rob...@netportusa.com> wrote:
On 18 Apr 2007 10:36:08 -0700, wrote:
Clearly it is not denial as such that is being forbidden but
the
use
of it in promoting hatred of minorities. Of course it is
hard to
imagine any other purpose for denying the Holocaust.
How about telling the truth, is that not a good purpose?
Holocaust denial has absolutely no relationship to truth.
but how would you ever know that if it is instituted as
unquestionable
dogma?
The way 2+2=4 is dogma?
But I'll answer anyway, and further expose you:
Simple: see where all the lies are directed.
Big Hint: see whose numbers are the oNLY ones EVER disputed.
Susan
2+2=4 isnt dogma. mathematicians do in fact debate its validity. check
out peano arithmetic.
Grow up.
i hardly take discussions about advanced mathematics to be in the
domain of children.
Which is all the more reason for you to do so.
but your answer isnt sufficient. you can only see where the lies are
if the liars are allowed to speak them.
Which is not what you were saying above, thanks.
yes, actually it is.
Your changing it to hide you agenda doesn;t hide your agenda.
if those lies are made
illegal, they dont look so much like lies anymore, but rather
statements that the government fears somebody might hear.
Not at all.
Only to those who wish it to be so.
no, in reality. welcome to it.
the fact that you can pretend this only shows just how far removed you are
from it.
Susan
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| User: "snex" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
19 Apr 2007 07:10:55 PM |
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On Apr 19, 1:25 pm, wrote:
On 19-Apr-2007,snex<s...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Apr 19, 8:08 am, wrote:
On 19-Apr-2007,snex<s...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Apr 18, 7:05 pm, wrote:
On 18-Apr-2007,snex<s...@comcast.net> wrote:
On Apr 18, 2:36 pm, (Kenneth McVay OBC)
wrote:
In article <kd2d231f4se8rjhsp9qmugaklqh565l...@4ax.com>,
Robert <rob...@netportusa.com> wrote:
On 18 Apr 2007 10:36:08 -0700, wrote:
Clearly it is not denial as such that is being forbidden but
the
use
of it in promoting hatred of minorities. Of course it is
hard to
imagine any other purpose for denying the Holocaust.
How about telling the truth, is that not a good purpose?
Holocaust denial has absolutely no relationship to truth.
but how would you ever know that if it is instituted as
unquestionable
dogma?
The way 2+2=4 is dogma?
But I'll answer anyway, and further expose you:
Simple: see where all the lies are directed.
Big Hint: see whose numbers are the oNLY ones EVER disputed.
Susan
2+2=4 isnt dogma. mathematicians do in fact debate its validity. check
out peano arithmetic.
Grow up.
i hardly take discussions about advanced mathematics to be in the
domain of children.
Which is all the more reason for you to do so.
yes, that totally makes sense. why dont you just admit that your
example was stupid? 2+2=4 is not dogma, nor are there any groups
lobbying any legislatures to make it so.
but your answer isnt sufficient. you can only see where the lies are
if the liars are allowed to speak them.
Which is not what you were saying above, thanks.
yes, actually it is.
Your changing it to hide you agenda doesn;t hide your agenda.
my "agenda" is to ensure that free speech exists. the greatest
philosophers of the modern age agree that free speech is a necessary
right for an informed public to have a productive democracy.
if those lies are made
illegal, they dont look so much like lies anymore, but rather
statements that the government fears somebody might hear.
Not at all.
Only to those who wish it to be so.
no, in reality. welcome to it.
the fact that you can pretend this only shows just how far removed you are
from it.
no pretending is necessary. any time a government *censors* some view,
that view is instantly lent credibility, because people inherently
distrust governments. reality bears this out, if you would only look
at past censorship.
Susan
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| User: "Kenneth McVay OBC" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
20 Apr 2007 11:00:58 AM |
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In article <1177027855.469137.142270@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
snex <snex@comcast.net> wrote:
[...]
no pretending is necessary. any time a government *censors* some view,
that view is instantly lent credibility, because people inherently
distrust governments. reality bears this out, if you would only look
at past censorship.
The people of Austria, where the most important legal
tool for the fight against neo-Nazi activities today is
Para 3 of the Verbotsgesetz, don't seem to agree with you.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/austrian/austrian-resistance-archives/ld-14.html
The Verbotsgesetz, which is enshrined within the Austrian
Constitution, provides for the punishment of anyone
trying to revive National Socialism. Indeed, The
uncompromising rejection of National Socialism is a
cornerstone of the Republic.
In 1984 a group of activists from the magazine "Halt" tried to register a new political
party under the name "Nationale Front" with the Ministry of Interior. The Ministry did
not recognize this party as legitimate. The party-founders then took their case to the
Constitutional Court, which rejected its appeal:
"The question of whether a revival of activity in the sense of the Verbotzgesetz exists,
can not be answered - as the Supreme Court (in reference to earlier judicature) already
aptly demonstrated in its judgement of June 25, 1986, 9 Os 132-85 - through an
accompanying description of all possible areas of activity, because the goals of the
NSDAP and its subsidiary organziations were all too manifold and multifarious. In any
case, an apology or trivialization of the (criminal) measures of the Nazi regime and the
glorification of the annexation of Austria in 1938 constitutes a revial of activity
according to the Verbotsgesetz just like any other one-sided propagandistic positive
description of National Socialist measures and goals. /.../
In the case at hand, the Minister of the Interior came to the supposition that a revival
of activity existed. He substantiated this supposition comprehensively and logically in
the contested order.
The'Provisional Program for the Nationale Front', 'Suggestions for Eliminating the
Existing System', published in Halt (No 23, Nov., 1984), clearly shows that the attempted
formation of the 'Nationale Front' represented a revival of (Nazi) activity."[58]
Another example is the repeated confiscation of newspaper "Deutsche National-Zeitung"
which comes to Austria from Munich. It is published by Gerhard Frey, founder of the
radical-right "Deutsche Volksunion". The Austrian courts have repeatedly ordered the
newspaper confiscated for denying the Holocaust. Frey filed a complaint against one such
confiscation (issue March 9, 1979, No. 4, Vol. 29) but was rebuffed by the Austrian
Supreme Court in its decision of March 6, 1980.
The Court found that many of the texts that had appeared in an article entitled
"Dangerous Doubts About Gassings"[59] were examples of the revival of Nazi activity as
seen in Para 3 of the Verbotsgesetz. It also found that the Lower Court had correctly and
objectively recognized such a "one-sided" trivialization of what Austrian courts had
already identified as the "inhuman National Socialist measures" as "in line with the
meaning of Para 3 of the Verbotsgesetz".
The Lower Court had correctly recognized the illegality of certain passages which
described conditions in the Nazi concentration camps, especially those in Auschwitz and
Birkenau, maintained that there had never been any mass-murders of Jews or other persons
in gas chambers and insisted it was all a swindle perpetrated by false witnesses.[60]
The Supreme Court's decisions were later reflected by the Vienna Criminal Court which
ruled in April 1980 that "one of the main propaganda tactics used to promote National
Socialism is to deny the historical reality of Nazi crimes, to insist they are all lies,
and, when the crimes are acknowledged, to trivialize them, and to put these crimes on the
same footing with Allied war-crimes, often doing so in the most macabre fashion."[61]
Authorities have other possibilities in addition to the constitutional regulations
mentioned above. For instance, there is a law against wearing or displaying certain
medals and symbols.[62] The introductory law to the Administrative Procedure Laws passed
by the National Assembly in February 1986 authorize every policeman to take immediate
action whenever neo-Nazi leaflets or similar material are distributed.[63]
Moreover, the Criminal Code, Para 283 of January 23, 1974, (BGBI. No. 60/1974), states
that it is illegal to agitate in any form against "any church or religious community
existing within the country, or against any group because of their race, nationality, or
ethnic background".
--
The Nizkor Project - An electronic Holocaust educational resource
David Irving vrs. Deborah Lipstadt & Penguin Books Ltd: Judgment
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/judgment-00-00.html
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/i/irving.david/libel.suit
.
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| User: "snex" |
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| Title: Re: EU aims to criminalize Holocaust denial |
20 Apr 2007 11:19:59 AM |
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On Apr 20, 11:00 am, (Kenneth McVay OBC) wrote:
In article <1177027855.469137.142...@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
snex <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
[...]
no pretending is necessary. any time a government *censors* some view,
that view is instantly lent credibility, because people inherently
distrust governments. reality bears this out, if you would only look
at past censorship.
The people of Austria, where the most important legal
tool for the fight against neo-Nazi activities today is
Para 3 of the Verbotsgesetz, don't seem to agree with you.
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/austrian/austrian-resistance-archives...
The Verbotsgesetz, which is enshrined within the Austrian
Constitution, provides for the punishment of anyone
trying to revive National Socialism. Indeed, The
uncompromising rejection of National Socialism is a
cornerstone of the Republic.
In 1984 a group of activists from the magazine "Halt" tried to register a new political
party under the name "Nationale Front" with the Ministry of Interior. The Ministry did
not recognize this party as legitimate. The party-founders then took their case to the
Constitutional Court, which rejected its appeal:
"The question of whether a revival of activity in the sense of the Verbotzgesetz exists,
can not be answered - as the Supreme Court (in reference to earlier judicature) already
aptly demonstrated in its judgement of June 25, 1986, 9 Os 132-85 - through an
accompanying description of all possible areas of activity, because the goals of the
NSDAP and its subsidiary organziations were all too manifold and multifarious. In any
case, an apology or trivialization of the (criminal) measures of the Nazi regime and the
glorification of the annexation of Austria in 1938 constitutes a revial of activity
according to the Verbotsgesetz just like any other one-sided propagandistic positive
description of National Socialist measures and goals. /.../
In the case at hand, the Minister of the Interior came to the supposition that a revival
of activity existed. He substantiated this supposition comprehensively and logically in
the contested order.
The'Provisional Program for the Nationale Front', 'Suggestions for Eliminating the
Existing System', published in Halt (No 23, Nov., 1984), clearly shows that the attempted
formation of the 'Nationale Front' represented a revival of (Nazi) activity."[58]
Another example is the repeated confiscation of newspaper "Deutsche National-Zeitung"
which comes to Austria from Munich. It is published by Gerhard Frey, founder of the
radical-right "Deutsche Volksunion". The Austrian courts have repeatedly ordered the
newspaper confiscated for denying the Holocaust. Frey filed a complaint against one such
confiscation (issue March 9, 1979, No. 4, Vol. 29) but was rebuffed by the Austrian
Supreme Court in its decision of March 6, 1980.
The Court found that many of the texts that had appeared in an article entitled
"Dangerous Doubts About Gassings"[59] were examples of the revival of Nazi activity as
seen in Para 3 of the Verbotsgesetz. It also found that the Lower Court had correctly and
objectively recognized such a "one-sided" trivialization of what Austrian courts had
already identified as the "inhuman National Socialist measures" as "in line with the
meaning of Para 3 of the Verbotsgesetz".
The Lower Court had correctly recognized the illegality of certain passages which
described conditions in the Nazi concentration camps, especially those in Auschwitz and
Birkenau, maintained that there had never been any mass-murders of Jews or other persons
in gas chambers and insisted it was all a swindle perpetrated by false witnesses.[60]
The Supreme Court's decisions were later reflected by the Vienna Criminal Court which
ruled in April 1980 that "one of the main propaganda tactics used to promote National
Socialism is to deny the historical reality of Nazi crimes, to insist they are all lies,
and, when the crimes are acknowledged, to trivialize them, and to put these crimes on the
same footing with Allied war-crimes, often doing so in the most macabre fashion."[61]
Authorities have other possibilities in addition to the constitutional regulations
mentioned above. For instance, there is a law against wearing or displaying certain
medals and symbols.[62] The introductory law to the Administrative Procedure Laws passed
by the National Assembly in February 1986 authorize every policeman to take immediate
action whenever neo-Nazi leaflets or similar material are distributed.[63]
Moreover, the Criminal Code, Para 283 of January 23, 1974, (BGBI. No. 60/1974), states
that it is illegal to agitate in any form against "any church or religious community
existing within the country, or against any group because of their race, nationality, or
ethnic background".
--
The Nizkor Project - An electronic Holocaust educational resource
David Irving vrs. Deborah Lipstadt & Penguin Books Ltd: Judgmenthttp://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/judgment-00-00.html
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/i/irving.david/libel.suit
and how does this address my point? are you claiming that these laws
dont raise suspicion? if not, why do people keep breaking them? why do
people flee the country to places where they can break them? why do
they cite them on their very websites as examples of oppression of
their views?
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