| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"MrPepper11" |
| Date: |
19 Apr 2005 12:26:41 AM |
| Object: |
Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them. A similar survey in the United States put the number at nearly 60
percent.
New York Times
April 19, 2005
Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church
By ELAINE SCIOLINO
PARIS, April 18 - To understand the crisis of the Roman Catholic Church
in Europe, visit the Seminary of St. Sulpice in Issy-Les-Moulineaux
outside Paris.
The vast 100-year-old structure, built on the ruins of a 17th-century
chateau, contains vaulted ceilings, stained-glass windows and hundreds
of rooms. Pope John Paul II visited here in 1980 on a trip in which he
chastised the French for abandoning the church.
But the seminary's corridors are dark, the individual living quarters
largely empty. Only 52 seminarians are studying this year, a decrease
of 50 percent from a decade ago. Many of them come from as far away as
Vietnam and Rwanda.
"We could welcome more than 200 seminarians if they wanted to come,"
said the Rev. Jean-Luc V=E9drine, the 45-year-old superior. "Today there
are young people in France who have never seen a priest."
Indeed, in all of France last year, only 90 priests were ordained,
compared with 566 in 1966. More and more throughout Europe, priests are
being forced to cover several parishes.
The Rev. Pascal Le Roux, for example, the 41-year-old pastor of the
Notre-Dame Cathedral in Evreux in Normandy, must minister to two other
area churches. Two dozen more under his authority have no priest and
remain closed except for a few holidays and special occasions.
The shortage of priests is only one of the problems bedeviling the
Catholic Church in Europe. The urgent need to revitalize it is cited as
a major reason why the world's cardinals who opened their conclave in
Rome on Monday to elect a new pope may choose a European.
During his 26-year papacy, John Paul II used the force of his
personality in dozens of trips around the Continent to try to bring
back European Catholics who had fallen away.
It was a disappointing exercise.
Among Catholics, only 10 percent in the Netherlands, 12 percent in
France, 15 percent in Germany and Austria, 18 percent in Spain and 25
percent in Italy attend Mass weekly.
Granted, historical, demographic and cultural differences mean that the
reasons vary from country to country. But in terms of an overall sense
of spirituality on the Continent, there is a troubling trend.
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them, according to the often-cited European Values Study, conducted in
1999 and 2000 and published two years ago. A similar survey in the
United States by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life put the
number at nearly 60 percent.
The trend away from regular participation has been so noticeable that
it has even been given a name: European apostasy.
"European Catholics are not against the Catholic Church," said Ulrich
Ruh, editor of the Catholic monthly Herder-Korrespondenz, based in
Freiburg, Germany. "They go to church at least once or twice a year and
bring their children to be baptized and confirmed. Rather, they have
made their own personal arrangements with the church and do not want to
be disturbed. They do not want to be evangelized. That is why the pope
failed to make the church more attractive."
Part of the problem is the church's emphasis on punishment and sin
rather than on inclusion and community.
On the trip to France in 1980, early in his tenure, for example, Pope
John Paul referred to the country by its historic title and asked,
"Eldest daughter of the church, what have you done with your baptism?"
That approach, which some here dismiss as paternalistic, alienates many
of Europe's Catholics, who insist that it is the church's leaders - not
the faithful - who must change.
"They still think they have the truth and that their truth must be
imposed on everyone," said Didier Vanhoutte, former president of the
F=E9d=E9ration des Reseaux du Parvis, an umbrella organization of 41
Catholic reform movements across Europe. "They haven't accepted the
limits of their power. They have to get closer to the people by
accepting a certain degree of poverty and, certainly, humility."
More than their American counterparts, Europe's Catholics disregard the
church's teachings on an array of moral and sexual issues, including
abortion, embryonic stem cell research, in vitro fertilization, sex
outside marriage and homosexuality.
The Netherlands allows same-sex marriage and several other countries -
including France, Denmark, Belgium, Norway, Sweden and Finland - offer
some sort of same-sex de facto marital contract. Some countries -
including Spain, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland and Denmark - have
liberalized euthanasia laws.
The trend away from organized Catholicism is sharpest among European
youth. In Spain, a poll of university students by the BBVA Foundation
in March indicated that of the institutions playing a prominent role in
Spanish life, the Catholic Church inspired the least amount of
confidence. Only 45 percent consider themselves Catholic, compared with
80 percent of Spain's population as a whole.
Today, the poll concluded, most university students "disagree with the
statement that, 'The teachings of the Catholic Church help us to live
more morally.' "
John Paul was particularly distressed by moves by Spain's Socialist
government that he perceived as anti-church, including campaigns to
liberalize divorce and abortion laws and to legalize gay marriage and
stem cell research. In remarks to Spanish clerics visiting him in the
Vatican in January, the pope suggested that the Spanish government was
spreading a "secular outlook."
"New generations of Spaniards are growing up influenced by religious
indifference and by ignorance of the Christian tradition with its rich
spiritual heritage," the pope said, demanding that the government give
religious instruction in public schools to students who want it.
Defense Minister Jos=E9 Bono, although a conservative Catholic himself,
shot back that the attack was "an exaggeration and a mistake."
Certainly, secularism, particularly in the separation of church and
state, is strictly enforced in many countries in Europe.
In 2004, the campaign by some European governments, supported by the
pope, to include a reference to Europe's Christian heritage in the
draft European Union constitution failed.
Later last year, Rocco Buttliglione, a former Italian minister, was
rejected for a top post in the European Union for his opinions that
homosexuality is a sin and that women would be better off at home.
In 2002, the European Union adopted a report urging its members to
ensure access to contraception, a move that Cardinal Alfonso L=F3pez
Trujillo of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family denounced
as "a dark and sad moment for this great Europe."
There is growth in Christianity on the Continent, but it tends to be
among immigrants from Asia, Africa and Latin America, who are often
drawn to churches described as evangelical, Pentecostal or charismatic.
At 7 a.m. six days a week, a windowless basement of an office building
in a working class part of Paris is filled with Filipino men and women,
most of them domestic workers. They have come to celebrate a
charismatic - but not Catholic - mass with a Filipino priest, the Rev.
John Donn Bautista, who is married and the father of six children.
The room - furnished with an altar and plastic stools as well as
computers, a fax machine and file cabinets - does double duty as a
chapel and the church headquarters.
The trend toward churches like these frustrates and even angers many
traditional Catholic clerics. "We're seeing the super-marketing of
religion," said the Rev. Jacques Anelli, director of the National
Vocation Service of the French Catholic Church. "People consume, and
when they don't find an institution they agree with, then they go
somewhere else. Bad variations must not make us abandon what we are.
The relationship with God must not be done like petty commerce."
But for Catholics who want more, this sort of church is a welcome
haven. "When I came to France, I wanted a church that gave me a sense
of belonging, a sense of security," said Cory de Jesus, a 45-year-old
housekeeper from the Philippines who plays the drums and sings at the
church's Sunday mass in a larger hall. "I have a sense of the
sacraments here that I didn't get as a Roman Catholic."
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
.
|
|
| User: "bam" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
19 Apr 2005 07:26:42 AM |
|
|
"MrPepper11" <MrPepper11@go.com> wrote in message
news:1113888401.015496.155490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them. A similar survey in the United States put the number at nearly 60
percent.
Protestantism is the slippery slope to atheism. First they threw out good
works and the Pope, eventually the priesthood, the saints, the sacraments.
Eventually you're left with a barn and a few folk tunes.
BAM
.
|
|
|
| User: "tim gueguen" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
20 Apr 2005 05:35:42 PM |
|
|
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:cN69e.85199$vL3.16388@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
Protestantism is the slippery slope to atheism.
A peculiar statement when Canada, in which Roman Catholicism is the largest
single religious denomination, is a less religious country than the United
States, where Protestantism predominates.
tim gueguen 101867
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
20 Apr 2005 07:48:09 PM |
|
|
tim gueguen wrote:
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:cN69e.85199$vL3.16388@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
Protestantism is the slippery slope to atheism.
A peculiar statement when Canada, in which Roman Catholicism is the
largest single religious denomination, is a less religious country
than the United States, where Protestantism predominates.
If you speak of denominations then Catholics are number one in the US also
I think the Baptists might not be happy with the number but would certainly
agree they should not be lumped with the others.
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#Pew_branches
.
|
|
|
| User: "tim gueguen" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
21 Apr 2005 05:59:18 PM |
|
|
"Mike Painter" <mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:dLC9e.1429$zX7.453@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
tim gueguen wrote:
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:cN69e.85199$vL3.16388@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
Protestantism is the slippery slope to atheism.
A peculiar statement when Canada, in which Roman Catholicism is the
largest single religious denomination, is a less religious country
than the United States, where Protestantism predominates.
If you speak of denominations then Catholics are number one in the US also
But only at 24%, versus Canada where 43% of Canadians identify themselves as
Catholic, and only 29% are members of what would be considered Protestant
denominations. We could quibble about whether the latter should be lumped
together, but the fact remains that Canada is a far more religiously
Catholic country than the US, yet is also a less religious country as well,
countering bam's claim.
tim gueguen 101867
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
21 Apr 2005 12:33:24 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 00:48:09 GMT, "Mike Painter"
<mddotpainter@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
tim gueguen wrote:
"bam" <mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net> wrote in message
news:cN69e.85199$vL3.16388@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
Protestantism is the slippery slope to atheism.
A peculiar statement when Canada, in which Roman Catholicism is the
largest single religious denomination, is a less religious country
than the United States, where Protestantism predominates.
If you speak of denominations then Catholics are number one in the US also
I think the Baptists might not be happy with the number but would certainly
agree they should not be lumped with the others.
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#Pew_branches
A Happy Baptist.......A Happy Baptist......A Happy Baptist...
Doesn't parse. A uneducated, ignorant, dishonest, raging, lying, and
bigoted Baptist *does* parse.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "number6" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
19 Apr 2005 08:05:14 AM |
|
|
bam wrote:
"MrPepper11" <MrPepper11@go.com> wrote in message
news:1113888401.015496.155490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them. A similar survey in the United States put the number at nearly
60
percent.
Protestantism is the slippery slope to atheism. First they threw out
good
works and the Pope, eventually the priesthood, the saints, the
sacraments.
Eventually you're left with a barn and a few folk tunes.
Sung by Jewish folk singers ... :-)
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Paul Duca" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
19 Apr 2005 06:17:08 PM |
|
|
in article cN69e.85199$vL3.16388@bignews4.bellsouth.net, bam at
mcca5761@bellsouthblahblah.net wrote on 4/19/05 8:26 AM:
"MrPepper11" <MrPepper11@go.com> wrote in message
news:1113888401.015496.155490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them. A similar survey in the United States put the number at nearly 60
percent.
Protestantism is the slippery slope to atheism. First they threw out good
works and the Pope, eventually the priesthood, the saints, the sacraments.
And those get you...WHAT, besides an eternity of being wiped and
diaped by your mommy?
Paul
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Jeremy Martin" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
19 Apr 2005 05:42:07 AM |
|
|
("MrPepper11" <MrPepper11@go.com>):
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them. A similar survey in the United States put the number at nearly 60
percent.
I'm moving to a rock in the middle of the ocean, so that my
survey can come up as 0 percent.
--
Jeremy Martin
.
|
|
|
| User: "Liquid Grace" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
19 Apr 2005 07:16:54 AM |
|
|
In article <e3o961t3r7ebvdf1ad6pvj61c88mp5otvv@4ax.com>, harhar@pirates-
ahoy.com leapt about on one foot, screaching...
("MrPepper11" <MrPepper11@go.com>):
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them. A similar survey in the United States put the number at nearly 60
percent.
I'm moving to a rock in the middle of the ocean, so that my
survey can come up as 0 percent.
Speaking as one who's moved to a very large rock in the middle of the
ocean, that doesn't always work... ;)
Grace
--
EAC Vile Harridan and Deranged Harpy
a.a. #1752, BAAWA Knight who Demands Shrubbery!
Lost In Oz....
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jeremy Martin" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
19 Apr 2005 07:50:36 PM |
|
|
(Liquid Grace <yes@istillthink.not>):
In article <e3o961t3r7ebvdf1ad6pvj61c88mp5otvv@4ax.com>, harhar@pirates-
ahoy.com leapt about on one foot, screaching...
("MrPepper11" <MrPepper11@go.com>):
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them. A similar survey in the United States put the number at nearly 60
percent.
I'm moving to a rock in the middle of the ocean, so that my
survey can come up as 0 percent.
Speaking as one who's moved to a very large rock in the middle of the
ocean, that doesn't always work... ;)
You need either a larger rock, or a smaller rock. Either way
would provide some advantage, I think.
--
Jeremy Martin
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "The Great Hairy One" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
20 Apr 2005 04:27:41 PM |
|
|
In article <MPG.1ccfa1c08d2104c09896d0@freenews.iinet.net.au>,
yes@istillthink.not says...
Speaking as one who's moved to a very large rock in the middle of the
ocean, that doesn't always work... ;)
Hey! :(
I'll make you eat vegemite for a week, y'know.
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Liquid Grace" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
22 Apr 2005 07:17:00 AM |
|
|
In article <MPG.1cd1745b27790d12989719@freenews.iinet.net.au>,
the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com leapt about on one foot, screaching...
In article <MPG.1ccfa1c08d2104c09896d0@freenews.iinet.net.au>,
yes@istillthink.not says...
Speaking as one who's moved to a very large rock in the middle of the
ocean, that doesn't always work... ;)
Hey! :(
I'll make you eat vegemite for a week, y'know.
No you won't, the couch isn't comfy.
:)
Grace
--
EAC Vile Harridan and Deranged Harpy
a.a. #1752, BAAWA Knight who Demands Shrubbery!
Lost In Oz....
.
|
|
|
| User: "The Great Hairy One" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
22 Apr 2005 07:55:54 AM |
|
|
In article <MPG.1cd3964b128ed7319896ee@freenews.iinet.net.au>,
yes@istillthink.not says...
No you won't, the couch isn't comfy.
If I sleep on the couch, you don't get none. :P
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Liquid Grace" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
22 Apr 2005 08:20:32 AM |
|
|
In article <MPG.1cd39f69292892ae98975b@freenews.iinet.net.au>,
the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com leapt about on one foot, screaching...
In article <MPG.1cd3964b128ed7319896ee@freenews.iinet.net.au>,
yes@istillthink.not says...
No you won't, the couch isn't comfy.
If I sleep on the couch, you don't get none. :P
Yeah, and neither do you. :)
Grace
--
EAC Vile Harridan and Deranged Harpy
a.a. #1752, BAAWA Knight who Demands Shrubbery!
Lost In Oz....
.
|
|
|
| User: "The Great Hairy One" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
22 Apr 2005 08:34:30 AM |
|
|
In article <MPG.1cd3a530570419769896f4@freenews.iinet.net.au>,
yes@istillthink.not says...
Yeah, and neither do you. :)
Curses! The flaw in my plan!
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Robibnikoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
22 Apr 2005 08:44:50 AM |
|
|
"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cd3a8747d2cefe298976e@freenews.iinet.net.au...
In article <MPG.1cd3a530570419769896f4@freenews.iinet.net.au>,
yes@istillthink.not says...
Yeah, and neither do you. :)
Curses! The flaw in my plan!
See, this is what happens when you forget to twirl your mustache ;)
--
------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
Bride of Satan
#1557
.
|
|
|
| User: "The Great Hairy One" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
25 Apr 2005 12:18:52 AM |
|
|
In article <3csde1F6pgh58U1@individual.net>,
says...
See, this is what happens when you forget to twirl your mustache ;)
Twirls mustache and laughs evilly.
BWAahahahahahAAHAA!
--
The Great Hairy One,
ICQ: 118086514
All BAAWA and blue
SMASH! Aha! They'll save every one of us!
====================================
CEO EAC Roleplaying Division
The last thing many players
hear is me asking for 45d6...
(Remove spam block to email)
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
23 Apr 2005 09:21:38 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:44:50 -0400, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"The Great Hairy One" <the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1cd3a8747d2cefe298976e@freenews.iinet.net.au...
In article <MPG.1cd3a530570419769896f4@freenews.iinet.net.au>,
yes@istillthink.not says...
Yeah, and neither do you. :)
Curses! The flaw in my plan!
See, this is what happens when you forget to twirl your mustache ;)
He probably twirled something else....
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
23 Apr 2005 09:20:56 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:17:00 +1000, Liquid Grace <yes@istillthink.not>
wrote:
In article <MPG.1cd1745b27790d12989719@freenews.iinet.net.au>,
the.great.hairy@GEEmail.com leapt about on one foot, screaching...
In article <MPG.1ccfa1c08d2104c09896d0@freenews.iinet.net.au>,
yes@istillthink.not says...
Speaking as one who's moved to a very large rock in the middle of the
ocean, that doesn't always work... ;)
Hey! :(
I'll make you eat vegemite for a week, y'know.
No you won't, the couch isn't comfy.
(cough)DawgHawse(cough)
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
19 Apr 2005 07:26:29 AM |
|
|
In our last episode
<1113888401.015496.155490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, MrPepper11
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them. A similar survey in the United States put the number at nearly 60
percent.
Yet, interestingly enough, probably only about half that 60% actually show
up...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Group website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
19 Apr 2005 07:56:42 PM |
|
|
Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
In our last episode
<1113888401.015496.155490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, MrPepper11
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them. A similar survey in the United States put the number at nearly
60 percent.
Yet, interestingly enough, probably only about half that 60% actually
show up...
There was an NPR show the other day talking about a parish with three
churches and one priest. 20 years ago there were three parishes and several
priests per parish.
The person interviewed used, I think, "logistical" rather than "financial "
for the reason they united but I'd bet a nickel money was the reason.
I wonder how similar the surveys were and if the "very important" question
was worded the same.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
19 Apr 2005 07:34:24 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:26:29 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode
<1113888401.015496.155490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, MrPepper11
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them. A similar survey in the United States put the number at nearly 60
percent.
Yet, interestingly enough, probably only about half that 60% actually show
up...
The difference is that the Eoropeans for whom it's unimportant don't
even go through the motions. In the US those who say it's imortant are
overtly religious.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
19 Apr 2005 08:01:28 AM |
|
|
In our last episode <0ku9619evejs2j5b425ngi3s78v3ti9moe@4ax.com>,
Christopher A. Lee pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare
proclaimed:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:26:29 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode
<1113888401.015496.155490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, MrPepper11
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them. A similar survey in the United States put the number at nearly 60
percent.
Yet, interestingly enough, probably only about half that 60% actually
show up...
The difference is that the Eoropeans for whom it's unimportant don't even
go through the motions. In the US those who say it's imortant are overtly
religious.
I forget who said it but US Americans believe in believing...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Group website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
.
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
21 Apr 2005 08:57:16 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:01:28 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode <0ku9619evejs2j5b425ngi3s78v3ti9moe@4ax.com>,
Christopher A. Lee pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare
proclaimed:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:26:29 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode
<1113888401.015496.155490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, MrPepper11
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them. A similar survey in the United States put the number at nearly 60
percent.
Yet, interestingly enough, probably only about half that 60% actually
show up...
The difference is that the Eoropeans for whom it's unimportant don't even
go through the motions. In the US those who say it's imortant are overtly
religious.
I forget who said it but US Americans believe in believing...
I believe, and objective evidence supports this,
they're ignorant fools.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
22 Apr 2005 06:03:51 AM |
|
|
In our last episode <p8cf61tl78j7i8ttte3fqeircn8i0ggoqr@4ax.com>, stoney
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:01:28 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode <0ku9619evejs2j5b425ngi3s78v3ti9moe@4ax.com>,
Christopher A. Lee pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare
proclaimed:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:26:29 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode
<1113888401.015496.155490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, MrPepper11
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them. A similar survey in the United States put the number at nearly
60 percent.
Yet, interestingly enough, probably only about half that 60% actually
show up...
The difference is that the Eoropeans for whom it's unimportant don't
even go through the motions. In the US those who say it's imortant are
overtly religious.
I forget who said it but US Americans believe in believing...
I believe, and objective evidence supports this, they're ignorant fools.
Well, we are not a bright nation...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Group website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
.
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
23 Apr 2005 09:23:50 AM |
|
|
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 06:03:51 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode <p8cf61tl78j7i8ttte3fqeircn8i0ggoqr@4ax.com>, stoney
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:01:28 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode <0ku9619evejs2j5b425ngi3s78v3ti9moe@4ax.com>,
Christopher A. Lee pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare
proclaimed:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:26:29 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode
<1113888401.015496.155490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, MrPepper11
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them. A similar survey in the United States put the number at nearly
60 percent.
Yet, interestingly enough, probably only about half that 60% actually
show up...
The difference is that the Eoropeans for whom it's unimportant don't
even go through the motions. In the US those who say it's imortant are
overtly religious.
I forget who said it but US Americans believe in believing...
I believe, and objective evidence supports this, they're ignorant fools.
Well, we are not a bright nation...
That's very very very obvious with the superstitious crapping their
clothing over education. Death means "Game Over." It's a black light
special.....
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
Religion is the original war crime.
-Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005)
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Ray Fischer" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
19 Apr 2005 11:38:55 AM |
|
|
MrPepper11 <MrPepper11@go.com> wrote:
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them. A similar survey in the United States put the number at nearly 60
percent.
Which proves that Americans are not very honest about religion?
--
Ray Fischer
rfischer@sonic.net
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "SheBlewHimDidYouBlowHim" |
|
| Title: Re: Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church |
19 Apr 2005 05:36:00 PM |
|
|
eurpopeans have finally decided to stop worshipping a MASS MURDERER.
europeans see what a fucking scam and what a bunch of ***** that religion
is.
"MrPepper11" <MrPepper11@go.com> wrote in message
news:1113888401.015496.155490@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them. A similar survey in the United States put the number at nearly 60
percent.
New York Times
April 19, 2005
Europeans Fast Falling Away From Church
By ELAINE SCIOLINO
PARIS, April 18 - To understand the crisis of the Roman Catholic Church
in Europe, visit the Seminary of St. Sulpice in Issy-Les-Moulineaux
outside Paris.
The vast 100-year-old structure, built on the ruins of a 17th-century
chateau, contains vaulted ceilings, stained-glass windows and hundreds
of rooms. Pope John Paul II visited here in 1980 on a trip in which he
chastised the French for abandoning the church.
But the seminary's corridors are dark, the individual living quarters
largely empty. Only 52 seminarians are studying this year, a decrease
of 50 percent from a decade ago. Many of them come from as far away as
Vietnam and Rwanda.
"We could welcome more than 200 seminarians if they wanted to come,"
said the Rev. Jean-Luc Védrine, the 45-year-old superior. "Today there
are young people in France who have never seen a priest."
Indeed, in all of France last year, only 90 priests were ordained,
compared with 566 in 1966. More and more throughout Europe, priests are
being forced to cover several parishes.
The Rev. Pascal Le Roux, for example, the 41-year-old pastor of the
Notre-Dame Cathedral in Evreux in Normandy, must minister to two other
area churches. Two dozen more under his authority have no priest and
remain closed except for a few holidays and special occasions.
The shortage of priests is only one of the problems bedeviling the
Catholic Church in Europe. The urgent need to revitalize it is cited as
a major reason why the world's cardinals who opened their conclave in
Rome on Monday to elect a new pope may choose a European.
During his 26-year papacy, John Paul II used the force of his
personality in dozens of trips around the Continent to try to bring
back European Catholics who had fallen away.
It was a disappointing exercise.
Among Catholics, only 10 percent in the Netherlands, 12 percent in
France, 15 percent in Germany and Austria, 18 percent in Spain and 25
percent in Italy attend Mass weekly.
Granted, historical, demographic and cultural differences mean that the
reasons vary from country to country. But in terms of an overall sense
of spirituality on the Continent, there is a troubling trend.
Only 21 percent of Europeans say that religion is "very important" to
them, according to the often-cited European Values Study, conducted in
1999 and 2000 and published two years ago. A similar survey in the
United States by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life put the
number at nearly 60 percent.
The trend away from regular participation has been so noticeable that
it has even been given a name: European apostasy.
"European Catholics are not against the Catholic Church," said Ulrich
Ruh, editor of the Catholic monthly Herder-Korrespondenz, based in
Freiburg, Germany. "They go to church at least once or twice a year and
bring their children to be baptized and confirmed. Rather, they have
made their own personal arrangements with the church and do not want to
be disturbed. They do not want to be evangelized. That is why the pope
failed to make the church more attractive."
Part of the problem is the church's emphasis on punishment and sin
rather than on inclusion and community.
On the trip to France in 1980, early in his tenure, for example, Pope
John Paul referred to the country by its historic title and asked,
"Eldest daughter of the church, what have you done with your baptism?"
That approach, which some here dismiss as paternalistic, alienates many
of Europe's Catholics, who insist that it is the church's leaders - not
the faithful - who must change.
"They still think they have the truth and that their truth must be
imposed on everyone," said Didier Vanhoutte, former president of the
Fédération des Reseaux du Parvis, an umbrella organization of 41
Catholic reform movements across Europe. "They haven't accepted the
limits of their power. They have to get closer to the people by
accepting a certain degree of poverty and, certainly, humility."
More than their American counterparts, Europe's Catholics disregard the
church's teachings on an array of moral and sexual issues, including
abortion, embryonic stem cell research, in vitro fertilization, sex
outside marriage and homosexuality.
The Netherlands allows same-sex marriage and several other countries -
including France, Denmark, Belgium, Norway, Sweden and Finland - offer
some sort of same-sex de facto marital contract. Some countries -
including Spain, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland and Denmark - have
liberalized euthanasia laws.
The trend away from organized Catholicism is sharpest among European
youth. In Spain, a poll of university students by the BBVA Foundation
in March indicated that of the institutions playing a prominent role in
Spanish life, the Catholic Church inspired the least amount of
confidence. Only 45 percent consider themselves Catholic, compared with
80 percent of Spain's population as a whole.
Today, the poll concluded, most university students "disagree with the
statement that, 'The teachings of the Catholic Church help us to live
more morally.' "
John Paul was particularly distressed by moves by Spain's Socialist
government that he perceived as anti-church, including campaigns to
liberalize divorce and abortion laws and to legalize gay marriage and
stem cell research. In remarks to Spanish clerics visiting him in the
Vatican in January, the pope suggested that the Spanish government was
spreading a "secular outlook."
"New generations of Spaniards are growing up influenced by religious
indifference and by ignorance of the Christian tradition with its rich
spiritual heritage," the pope said, demanding that the government give
religious instruction in public schools to students who want it.
Defense Minister José Bono, although a conservative Catholic himself,
shot back that the attack was "an exaggeration and a mistake."
Certainly, secularism, particularly in the separation of church and
state, is strictly enforced in many countries in Europe.
In 2004, the campaign by some European governments, supported by the
pope, to include a reference to Europe's Christian heritage in the
draft European Union constitution failed.
Later last year, Rocco Buttliglione, a former Italian minister, was
rejected for a top post in the European Union for his opinions that
homosexuality is a sin and that women would be better off at home.
In 2002, the European Union adopted a report urging its members to
ensure access to contraception, a move that Cardinal Alfonso López
Trujillo of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family denounced
as "a dark and sad moment for this great Europe."
There is growth in Christianity on the Continent, but it tends to be
among immigrants from Asia, Africa and Latin America, who are often
drawn to churches described as evangelical, Pentecostal or charismatic.
At 7 a.m. six days a week, a windowless basement of an office building
in a working class part of Paris is filled with Filipino men and women,
most of them domestic workers. They have come to celebrate a
charismatic - but not Catholic - mass with a Filipino priest, the Rev.
John Donn Bautista, who is married and the father of six children.
The room - furnished with an altar and plastic stools as well as
computers, a fax machine and file cabinets - does double duty as a
chapel and the church headquarters.
The trend toward churches like these frustrates and even angers many
traditional Catholic clerics. "We're seeing the super-marketing of
religion," said the Rev. Jacques Anelli, director of the National
Vocation Service of the French Catholic Church. "People consume, and
when they don't find an institution they agree with, then they go
somewhere else. Bad variations must not make us abandon what we are.
The relationship with God must not be done like petty commerce."
But for Catholics who want more, this sort of church is a welcome
haven. "When I came to France, I wanted a church that gave me a sense
of belonging, a sense of security," said Cory de Jesus, a 45-year-old
housekeeper from the Philippines who plays the drums and sings at the
church's Sunday mass in a larger hall. "I have a sense of the
sacraments here that I didn't get as a Roman Catholic."
============================================================
.
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
