| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Bill" |
| Date: |
12 Feb 2006 06:58:21 PM |
| Object: |
EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
There are some very simple facts and challenges that refute the
existence of any real
Gods.
1.. Although there are hundreds of different religions, god beliefs and
documents, NO god has ever demonstrated or proven the authenticity of ANY of
them. Only errant self interested men have claimed their authenticity. All
of these many ancient documents were written by fallible men with their own
selfish motivations. Why would not a real god announce directly and
authoritatively from his heaven, that he is the real god and what documents
are authentic and what are fakes and destroy them? He certainly should want
to prevent his creations from being deceived and mislead.
2.. Although billions of people have died there is not a single
'authenticated and proven' case where anyone of them has ever communicated
with their living children, spouses or friends. Why would god not allow
these souls in his heaven to explain and confirm the virtues, benefits and
even the existence of his heaven?
3.. If there is a 'real' god creator why did he create a world that so
punishes his creations with thousands of diseases, Hurricanes, Tsunamis,
Earth quakes, volcanic destruction, Blizzards, Tornados, and Wars etc. Why
does he permit these things to punish perfectly innocent children? Why does
he cause people to suffer the many diseases and infirmaries of old age?
4.. What is the logic of putting men, women and totally innocent children
through the tortures of life on earth and then provide them with an eternal,
pleasant and happy life in his heaven. Why did he not skip the unfair
punishment of life on earth and just let his creature enjoy their wonderful
heaven?
The objective evidence is that no gods create man but quite the opposite;
that man created gods.
.
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| User: "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" |
|
| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
13 Feb 2006 11:33:33 AM |
|
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"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:0OQHf.6767$S03.6077@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
There are some very simple facts and challenges that refute the
existence of any real
Gods.
Some excellent points are presented in
your post. Here are a few additional angles:
1.. Although there are hundreds of different religions, god beliefs and
documents, NO god has ever demonstrated or proven the authenticity of ANY of
them. Only errant self interested men have claimed their authenticity. All
of these many ancient documents were written by fallible men with their own
selfish motivations. Why would not a real god announce directly and
authoritatively from his heaven, that he is the real god and what documents
are authentic and what are fakes and destroy them? He certainly should want
to prevent his creations from being deceived and mislead.
Once one buys the notion of an almighty
being or array of beings, one can imagine
it or them doing anything, and for reason.
Therefore, there are believers who resort
to a God of the Gaps argument, thinking
that if humans don't know everything about
something, what they don't know = God.
Weak argument, in my view, but one which
believers resort to.
As for the deceive and mislead argument,
believers either ignore or change the argu-
ment for competing Gods, thinking that
since so many in the past 6,000 years
have had assorted beliefs in the super-
natural, that must mean the supernatural
is reality, and belief in 'any' supernatural
entity is a step validating their 'personal'
God views. Weak argument when juxta-
posed against all the "believe in the
'right' God tales or else" stances cen-
tral to many of the God faiths.
Others see their own 'personal' God as
*the* God, and view alternative versions
as invalid/unreal, as if an individual can
manufacture a 'real' God just by believing
it's real. Humans as Gods of God? That,
in essence, is what many ecumenical
types have resorted to in an effort to
tone down the enthusiasm of those who
adopt the "ours is the 'true' God" stance
-and- who try to kill off or war upon those
who don't believe it.
Others see deception and misleading as
part of God's great plan to give humans
choices, an extremely weak argument
when juxtaposed against the threat of
eternal death or torment for those who
don't buy the supposed 'right' God tales.
2.. Although billions of people have died there is not a single
'authenticated and proven' case where anyone of them has ever communicated
with their living children, spouses or friends. Why would god not allow
these souls in his heaven to explain and confirm the virtues, benefits and
even the existence of his heaven?
One view by some religious types is
that the believers are so happy, they
don't have any desire to connect with
those left behind. Yeah, right. Where
did their brains go? Where did their
morality disappear to, their altruism,
their caring, their love for their fellow
beings on earth? If in heaven, where's
their freedom, as if no one up there
would want to 'save' friends left behind?
Another view is that they're asleep,
awaiting a moment at which they will
be raised from the dead for their
happy-happy-joy-joy journey to heaven.
Yeah, right. Per this theory, God has
silenced all who could testify to its
existence, as if hiding from humans
and preventing dead humans from
testifying about their afterlife adven-
tures was a noble enterprise.
The 'cop out', extremely weak by those
desperate for a God, is that God revela-
tion is 'free will' stripping, for if people
*knew* that God existed, they would
naturally choose to follow it, and God
obviously doesn't want that, apart from
its revelation to selected humans in
times past.
Paradoxical, the religious believing God
wants everyone in heaven, yet God hid-
ing as if it doesn't exist -and- preventing
those that supposedly *know* it exists
from contacting those on earth, that's
its supposed modus operandi, to all
but the few who, per religious tales,
supposedly witnessed its presence,
or so the tales say.
3.. If there is a 'real' god creator why did he create a world that so
punishes his creations with thousands of diseases, Hurricanes, Tsunamis,
Earth quakes, volcanic destruction, Blizzards, Tornados, and Wars etc. Why
does he permit these things to punish perfectly innocent children? Why does
he cause people to suffer the many diseases and infirmaries of old age?
No loving God exists is the straight-
forward explanation. No God exists,
at all, at least no God that cares to
intervene in the physical world, that's
another explanation.
As for the religious views, some say
God (pick one) uses hardship to test
humans, and those found worthy either
(see above) sleep for a future journey
to happy-happy-joy-joy land -or- go
there immediately -and- are prohibited
from contacting folks on earth, -or- are
disinclined to do so for some myster-
ious reason.
4.. What is the logic of putting men, women and totally innocent children
through the tortures of life on earth and then provide them with an eternal,
pleasant and happy life in his heaven. Why did he not skip the unfair
punishment of life on earth and just let his creature enjoy their wonderful
heaven?
Heaven from the get go. Makes sense
to me. However, it doesn't mate to the
reality of a natural world, and therefore
excuses and apologetics and spins
and dances with deception are the
techniques used by those who believe
in magic beings.
The objective evidence is that no gods create man but quite the opposite;
that man created gods.
I agree.
Speaking of evidence of no Gods, here
are some links to posts I've made over
the past few years, touching on some
of the angles you mentioned above,
and others:
- - -
If there was a God, why wouldn't
he/it/she/they ...
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/if_there_was_a_god.htm
....
1) Detail all knowledge, unashamedly,
taking pride in his/its/her/their creation?
2) Trip us out on heaven from the get
go?
3) Make us Gods - after all, it is a vast
infinite cosmos, so what's so hard about
slicing off a universe for each of us?
4) Spare the children the pain?
5) Spare the good the pain?
6) Spare us all the pain?
7) Communicate with us, like, for real?
8) Deal with us as if we were worth deal-
ing with, rather than in a manner equiva-
lent to God not existing?
9) Act in a manner distinctly different
from the non-existent manner in which
he/it/she/they acts?
10) Act in as decent and kind and caring
and genuine and real and open and hon-
est and forthright a manner as the best
among us?
- - -
- - -
If There Was a God - 79 Questions
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/if_there_was_a_god_79_questions.htm
- - -
- - -
It's OK to Doubt
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/ok_to_doubt.htm
"... Religion is a byproduct of fear. For
much of human history, it may have been
a necessary evil, but why was it more evil
than necessary? Isn't killing people in the
name of God a pretty good definition of
insanity? ..."
- - -
- - -
Evidence of No God
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/evidence_of_no_god.htm
If god(s) exist in the unknown, it / she /
he / they have demonstrated to-date an
amazing ability to remain there. If we go
to the unknown, I hope we know we're
there. To presume a human can know
that there is a there, and furthermore, to
presume a human can comment intelli-
gently on god(s) and other entities there
stretches human imagination to the break-
ing point, a point beyond which exists
nothing but hopes, dreams, fantasies,
and fears.
"there is no god"
in the world of the real
since that's the deal
let's enjoy ourselves
and treat god(s)
and such things
as nothings
until god(s)
and such things
become somethings
real, not just spiel
- - -
- - -
"There is no god." Evidence, please,
for your assertion?
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/there_is_no_god_evidence_please.htm
To quibble over how best to express
disbelief would logically require one to
likewise quibble over how best to ex-
press belief. Since it's acceptable (even
desired by many) to express belief in
terms of certainty, should it not be ac-
ceptable (even desired by many) to
express disbelief in the same manner?
See The Invisible Thing for further dis-
sertation along these lines.
- - -
- - -
The Invisible Thing
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/invisible_thing.htm
The total and absolute burden of proof
is on the shoulders and brains of the
persons claiming that any imaginary
beings are real, period. End of discus-
sion.
Just repeating the obvious for those
without a clue as to the difference
between making a claim and disbe-
lieving/doubting/refuting a claim.
- - -
- - -
Think About Your Definition of God ...
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/definition_of_god.htm
....
A few assisting questions provided.
Please, understand, that if you believe
in or worship a God, it would behoove
you to identify that which it is that you're
worshipping or believing in ... and why.
It's not merely a social club that you're
a part of. Think about it - the upsides
and the downsides ... ponder if it's wise
to promote a God / worship a God /
brainwash children into fearing a God /
deny yourself freedom and joy and
pleasure in the name of a God ...
Reason it out ...
Clarify it ...
Scope it ...
Make sense of it ...
- - -
- - -
Definition of No God?
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/prohumanistfreeloverdaily/091101.htm
Imagining a god is interacting with the
real world is not necessary if a god
wishes to impart that supposedly key
piece of information in a manner be-
yond dispute. It is god we're talking
about, here, after all, not some magic
act of "make believe", isn't it?
- - -
- - -
Have you tried to cover up the unknown
with ...
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/cover_up_the_unknown.htm
... belief in an almighty most powerful
incredible be-all end-all magnificent
creator of everything / granter-of-worth-
while benefits, including immortality /
damner-of-unworthy beings?
Put another way ...
Isn't the whole entire concept of God
based entirely upon its substitute for
unknown, and in that substitution, does
it not become little more than a tool to
be used/abused for personal gain/
manipulation/deceit/pretentiousness
-or- a 'make believe' entity upon which
to project one's desires for positive
constructs like love, meaning, worth,
value, and _____ [insert list of desired
qualities here]?
In other words ...
Isn't the whole God concept best under-
stood as a manifestation of human de-
sire to be God rather than human revela-
tion of God?
- - -
- - -
All About Flavors (of gods/no gods)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/all_about_flavors.htm
From the wide array of belief/disbelief
modalities, what's the best one, the best
flavor so to speak, do you think?
Let's look at a few and ponder the rami-
fications of each ...
- - -
- - -
-Top 10- Insurmountable Challenges
to God Belief
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/insurmountable_challenges.htm
1) No one has proven (or provided testa-
ble and verifiable evidence) that any God
exists
2) No one has proven (or provided testa-
ble and verifiable evidence) that any God
has ever created anything, or has ever
existed
3) No one has proven (or provided testa-
ble and verifiable evidence) that any God
wants anything
4) No one has proven (or provided testa-
ble and verifiable evidence) that any God
wants to be worshipped
5) No one has proven (or provided testa-
ble and verifiable evidence) that any God
wants money to be given to any religious
entities
6) No one has proven (or provided testa-
ble and verifiable evidence) that any God
approves of what any document or group
of documents says
7) No one has proven (or provided con-
vincing and verifiable evidence) that any
God provides an afterlife (or reincarnation)
8) No one has proven (or provided con-
vincing and verifiable evidence) that any
God assesses human acts or lack of acts
or belief or lack of belief to decide about
an afterlife (or reincarnation)
9) No one has proven (or provided con-
vincing and verifiable evidence) that any
God answers any prayer
10) No one has proven (or provided con-
vincing and verifiable evidence) that any
God answers specific prayers with testa-
ble criteria (i.e., criteria by which a spe-
cific God is asked to answer a prayer,
and a desired result transpires which is
attributable *only* to a specific God as
*the* causal agent rather than to the laws
of nature/physics)
- - -
- - -
One Ticket to Heaven and Hell, Please ...
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/ticket_to_heaven_and_hell.htm
.... Why not?
Boom - it's travel to Heaven and Hell day,
whoosh - we're off to see the wizard, the
wonderful wizard of heaven and hell ...
- - -
- - -
Archaeology refutes the
Bible's claim to history
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/archaeology_refutes_bible.htm
The following provides a detailed analysis
of a book which provides details on why
the fundamentalist/literalist interpretation
of the pentateuch, the christian bible, and
the quran, fall far short when it comes to
the historical claims made in those docu-
ments.
- - -
- - -
Intelligent Designer / 'Irreducible Complexity' /
God / 'First Cause'
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/science/intelligent_designer.htm
The evidence is clear that Intelligent Designer
and so-called 'irreducible complexity' are little
more than code-words for God and that, in
fact, within the area of remaining unknowns
regarding the origins of the universe and life,
science is humankind's only legitimate hope
as the myths from the caves of human ignor-
ance just don't cut it anymore.
- - -
- - -
The Jesus Doubt File
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/jesus_doubt_file.htm
For consideration of the likelihood that Jesus
was a mythical creation -or- an overly ambi-
tious series of creative extrapolations per-
taining to a human who, if he even existed,
had neither divine nor extraordinary attributes
anywhere near those credited to him in the
gospels, review the following ...
- - -
- - -
Prayer Test
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/prayer_test.htm
From time to time, studies are posted in
which claims are made that prayer works.
Do you believe prayer works?
Please examine the following and detail
for me how no god differs from a god
which answers prayer:
- - -
- - -
Reasoning your way to no god, no christ
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/reasoning_your_way_to_no_god.htm
To live your life in fear of imaginary beings
is to enter the arena called "the black hole
of non-falsifiable nothings" - that's right,
within that black hole can be constructed
any demons, spirits, holy entities, deities,
pink elephants, little invisible pink furry
friends, extraterrestrial abductors, ghosts,
headless horsemen, etc...
Clue - the size/power of your attribution
from within the "black hole of non-falsifiable
nothings" does not lend any weight as to its
validatable impact on reality.
For someone to suggest that you must
follow _____ -or- God -or- any other all
powerful _____ -or- be damned is nothing
short of a slap in the face of the integrity of
your humanity/freedom from blind threat/
freedom to choose to live your life based
on the world of the rational, a natural world
with nary a clue that the "black hole of non-
falsifiable nothings" contains anything non-
imaginary.
- - -
- - -
When a Christian Asks "How Can You
Say There Is No God"? ...
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/say_there_is_no_god.htm
Here's an imaginary being for you, if you're
into the mood of asking "How Can You Say
There Is No _____ (fill in favorite imaginary
being here)?"
Fud.
How can you not believe in Fud? You see,
Fud being the ultimate being, it created God
and like a spoiled child, God went off and
spun up a universe he could neither control
or interact with in any meaningful way..
- - -
- - -
God is a chameleon
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/god_is_a_chameleon.htm
God is oft-times used in two irreconcilable
ways by those who believe in its reality, one
way among likeminded believers, and in an
ecumenical way (requiring philosophical tap
dancing, a blurry God if you will) among
believers with dissimilar views.
- - -
- - -
Key reality underlying the 'game' of religion
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/key_reality_game_of_religion.htm
There's a key reality to the methodology that
underlies the 'game' of religion. It's based on
the evolutionary instincts of survival/seduction,
fear/threat, power/control, meme propagation,
and social communion ...
~~
Religion provides nothing in the way of evi-
dence.
Religion is mind control.
- - -
- - -
Fingle-Dingle-Wangers
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/fingle_dingle_wangers.htm
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality
~~~
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
15 Feb 2006 04:31:35 AM |
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"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:0OQHf.6767$S03.6077@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
There are some very simple facts and challenges that refute the
existence of any real god.
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) and there is plenty of
evidence that our God exists. In fact we are to evidence the existence of
our God in every loving and caring word and action.
Naturally, the god or devil of YOUR definition doesn't exist, for you
make sure of that, by defining the word as ludicrously as you possibly can,
i.e. sky pixy, pink unicorn etc.
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| User: "Fred Stone" |
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| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
15 Feb 2006 11:59:28 AM |
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"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:43f33225$0$1101$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.com:
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:0OQHf.6767$S03.6077@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
There are some very simple facts and challenges that refute the
existence of any real god.
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) and there is plenty of
evidence that our God exists. In fact we are to evidence the existence
of our God in every loving and caring word and action.
You aren't doing a very good job of it, Frankie.
Naturally, the god or devil of YOUR definition doesn't exist, for
you
make sure of that, by defining the word as ludicrously as you possibly
can, i.e. sky pixy, pink unicorn etc.
We're using *YOUR* definition, and you're not doing a very good job at
evidencing your definition.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"Presidents don't make jobs, rich people make jobs" - Anon.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
15 Feb 2006 11:13:26 PM |
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"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:Xns976B842A17AA7fstone69@81.174.50.80...
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:43f33225$0$1101$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.com:
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:0OQHf.6767$S03.6077@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
There are some very simple facts and challenges that refute the
existence of any real god.
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) and there is plenty of
evidence that our God exists. In fact we are to evidence the existence
of our God in every loving and caring word and action.
You aren't doing a very good job of it, Frankie.
Judging from you past posts, nobody ever is doing "a very good job of
it". That's only natural, for atheist dogma demands of atheists, that they
look for faults, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies and cheats, NOT
truth, righteousness, honesty, generosity, rectitude, love, care and
devotion.
Naturally, the god or devil of YOUR definition doesn't exist, for
you
make sure of that, by defining the word as ludicrously as you possibly
can, i.e. sky pixy, pink unicorn etc.
We're using *YOUR* definition, and you're not doing a very good job at
evidencing your definition.
You also lie a lot, and are proud of it. My definitions of God or devil
are those of Christ Himself, that's why I am a Christian. See below
Pastor Frank
"GOD" THE CHRISTIAN MEANING OF THE WORD ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE:
Jesus in Jn:4:24: "GOD IS A SPIRIT, and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth."
Jesus in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the way, the truth,
and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me,
ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE KNOW HIM AND
HAVE SEEN HIM."
Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER;
and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am
in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak
not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
Jesus in Jn:10:30: I and my Father are one.
Jesus in John 12:44-46`Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes
in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me. And he who sees me sees
Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever
believes in me should not abide in darkness."
Jesus in Lk 17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said: "The kingdom of
God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo
there! For, behold, the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU."
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
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| User: "xeno" |
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| Title: God is a figment you fill your void |
16 Feb 2006 11:59:39 AM |
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On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Pastor Frank wrote:
Judging from you past posts, nobody ever is doing "a very good job of
it". That's only natural, for atheist dogma demands of atheists, that they
look for faults, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies and cheats, NOT
truth, righteousness, honesty, generosity, rectitude, love, care and
devotion.
Frank, just because you attribute and/or apply truth, righteousness,
honesty, generosity, rectitude, love, care & devotion to what is evidently
faults, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies & cheats, doesn't make
those evident faults, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies & cheats any
less faults, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies & cheats than they
are. & your only defense for these faults, errors, mistakes,
inconsistencies, lies & cheats is to call people who point out them bad
people, & to presume that if one has the pretense of being good then the
evident, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies & cheats are irrelevant.
My definitions of God or devil are those of Christ Himself
Big fucking deal. It doesn't make it any less stupid.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: God is a figment you fill your void |
16 Feb 2006 04:51:12 PM |
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"xeno" <xeno@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:20060216094237.I33115@synergy.transbay.net...
On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Pastor Frank wrote:
Judging from you past posts, nobody ever is doing "a very good job of
it". That's only natural, for atheist dogma demands of atheists, that
they
look for faults, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies and cheats, NOT
truth, righteousness, honesty, generosity, rectitude, love, care and
devotion.
Frank, just because you attribute and/or apply truth, righteousness,
honesty, generosity, rectitude, love, care & devotion to what is evidently
faults, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies & cheats, doesn't make
those evident faults, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies & cheats any
less faults, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies & cheats than they
are. & your only defense for these faults, errors, mistakes,
inconsistencies, lies & cheats is to call people who point out them bad
people, & to presume that if one has the pretense of being good then the
evident, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies & cheats are irrelevant.
My definitions of God or devil are those of Christ Himself
Big fucking deal. It doesn't make it any less stupid.
O, thanks for reminding me, I forgot to add "stupid" to those things
atheist dogma demands atheists to find, list and publish.
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| User: "xeno" |
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| Title: Re: God is a figment you fill your void |
17 Feb 2006 01:29:07 AM |
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On Fri, 17 Feb 2006, Pastor Frank wrote:
Judging from you past posts, nobody ever is doing "a very good job of
it". That's only natural, for atheist dogma demands of atheists, that
they look for faults, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies and
cheats, NOT truth, righteousness, honesty, generosity, rectitude,
love, care and devotion.
Frank, just because you attribute and/or apply truth, righteousness,
honesty, generosity, rectitude, love, care & devotion to what is evidently
faults, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies & cheats, doesn't make
those evident faults, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies & cheats any
less faults, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies & cheats than they
are. & your only defense for these faults, errors, mistakes,
inconsistencies, lies & cheats is to call people who point out them bad
people, & to presume that if one has the pretense of being good then the
evident, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies & cheats are irrelevant.
My definitions of God or devil are those of Christ Himself
Big fucking deal. It doesn't make it any less stupid.
O, thanks for reminding me, I forgot to add "stupid" to those things
atheist dogma demands atheists to find, list and publish.
If stupidity is found, then how can you, truth-seeker, object? Duh.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: God is a figment you fill your void |
19 Feb 2006 01:25:35 AM |
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"xeno" <xeno@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:20060216232601.U47972@synergy.transbay.net...
On Fri, 17 Feb 2006, Pastor Frank wrote:
O, thanks for reminding me, I forgot to add "stupid" to those things
atheist dogma demands atheists to find, list and publish.
If stupidity is found, then how can you, truth-seeker, object? Duh.
I don't object. It demonstrates the basic orientation and the main
difference between a believer and a disbeliever. Disbelieving is a dead end,
for the focus prevents a person from ever finding any truth.
All such a person finds is what he is looking for, more things to
disbelieve. The unrelenting negativity will cause the practitioner to become
totally cynical and paranoid in the end. See below
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Mt:8:12: But the children of Satan's kingdom shall be cast into
outer darkness: There shall be wailing (of interminable complaints) and
gnashing of teeth (in frustration and impotent rage).
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| User: "xeno" |
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| Title: Re: God is a figment you fill your void |
19 Feb 2006 10:22:11 AM |
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On Sun, 19 Feb 2006, Pastor Frank wrote:
O, thanks for reminding me, I forgot to add "stupid" to those things
atheist dogma demands atheists to find, list and publish.
If stupidity is found, then how can you, truth-seeker, object? Duh.
I don't object. It demonstrates the basic orientation and the main
difference between a believer and a disbeliever. Disbelieving is a dead
end, for the focus prevents a person from ever finding any truth.
The same would apply to having beliefs. You think God is love. God could
be bananas. & you're missing that because you're too busy believing
otherwise.
All such a person finds is what he is looking for, more things to
disbelieve.
Or more absurd things to believe in.
The unrelenting negativity will cause the practitioner to become totally
cynical and paranoid in the end.
What you characterize as unrelenting negativity is *merely* reasonable
skepticism.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: God is a figment you fill your void |
20 Feb 2006 06:19:03 AM |
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"xeno" <xeno@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:20060219071231.M89901@synergy.transbay.net...
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006, Pastor Frank wrote:
O, thanks for reminding me, I forgot to add "stupid" to those things
atheist dogma demands atheists to find, list and publish.
If stupidity is found, then how can you, truth-seeker, object? Duh.
I don't object. It demonstrates the basic orientation and the main
difference between a believer and a disbeliever. Disbelieving is a dead
end, for the focus prevents a person from ever finding any truth.
The same would apply to having beliefs. You think God is love. God could
be bananas. & you're missing that because you're too busy believing
otherwise.
All such a person finds is what he is looking for, more things to
disbelieve.
Or more absurd things to believe in.
Love is absurd?
The unrelenting negativity will cause the practitioner to become totally
cynical and paranoid in the end.
What you characterize as unrelenting negativity is *merely* reasonable
skepticism.
Are you a skeptical lover? Then you don't know love.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: God is a figment you fill your void |
19 Feb 2006 02:41:03 PM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"xeno" <xeno@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:20060216232601.U47972@synergy.transbay.net...
On Fri, 17 Feb 2006, Pastor Frank wrote:
O, thanks for reminding me, I forgot to add "stupid" to those things
atheist dogma demands atheists to find, list and publish.
If stupidity is found, then how can you, truth-seeker, object? Duh.
I don't object. It demonstrates the basic orientation and the main
difference between a believer and a disbeliever. Disbelieving is a dead end,
for the focus prevents a person from ever finding any truth.
===>Are you not a "disbeliever" in the gods of others, from
Aphrodite to Zeus, including YHWH?
has that made you incapable of "ever finding any truth"? -- L.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: God is a figment you fill your void |
20 Feb 2006 06:20:57 AM |
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"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:43F8D7DF.8A49A2F1@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"xeno" <xeno@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:20060216232601.U47972@synergy.transbay.net...
On Fri, 17 Feb 2006, Pastor Frank wrote:
O, thanks for reminding me, I forgot to add "stupid" to those things
atheist dogma demands atheists to find, list and publish.
If stupidity is found, then how can you, truth-seeker, object? Duh.
I don't object. It demonstrates the basic orientation and the main
difference between a believer and a disbeliever. Disbelieving is a dead
end,
for the focus prevents a person from ever finding any truth.
===>Are you not a "disbeliever" in the gods of others, from
Aphrodite to Zeus, including YHWH?
has that made you incapable of "ever finding any truth"? -- L.
Christians don't list their disbeliefs to the exclusion of all else.
Atheists do. We list our beliefs.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: God is a figment you fill your void |
21 Feb 2006 10:41:10 AM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:43F8D7DF.8A49A2F1@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"xeno" <xeno@transbay.net> wrote in message
news:20060216232601.U47972@synergy.transbay.net...
On Fri, 17 Feb 2006, Pastor Frank wrote:
O, thanks for reminding me, I forgot to add "stupid" to those things
atheist dogma demands atheists to find, list and publish.
If stupidity is found, then how can you, truth-seeker, object? Duh.
I don't object. It demonstrates the basic orientation and the main
difference between a believer and a disbeliever. Disbelieving is a dead
end,
for the focus prevents a person from ever finding any truth.
===>Are you not a "disbeliever" in the gods of others, from
Aphrodite to Zeus, including YHWH?
has that made you incapable of "ever finding any truth"? -- L.
Christians don't list their disbeliefs to the exclusion of all else.
Atheists do. We list our beliefs.
===>Perhaps it is true of "Christians".
But not of you, Sheepherder Frank. -- L.
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| User: "Popperian" |
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| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
16 Feb 2006 09:24:24 AM |
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There's an awful lot of 'begging the question' going on here. If one assumes
materialism (physicalism, behaviouism, functionalism), then God (at least
the theistic view of God) evaporates; if one assumes all religious language
is meaningless because it isn't empirically verifiable, then the theistic
concept (as well as many other concepts) of God is meaningless; if the Bible
is true and tells us God exists, then he exists.
The problem here is that we're 'assuming' that materialism is true, that
language must be verified empirically to be meaning, or that the Bible is
true. All beg the question and are spurious logically.
To say materialism is true is to say that there is something (truth) beyond
materialism and that is self-contradictory. If materialism is true, we
wouldn't know it is. If language is meaningless unless it is empirically
verifiable, wouldn't our concept of 'meaninglessness' be meaningless
(another self-contradiction)? If the Bible were true, how would we know it
was true? Appealing to the Bible to prove the Bible is again begging the
question.
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:43f40cc9$0$17684$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.com...
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:Xns976B842A17AA7fstone69@81.174.50.80...
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:43f33225$0$1101$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.com:
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:0OQHf.6767$S03.6077@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
There are some very simple facts and challenges that refute the
existence of any real god.
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) and there is plenty of
evidence that our God exists. In fact we are to evidence the existence
of our God in every loving and caring word and action.
You aren't doing a very good job of it, Frankie.
Judging from you past posts, nobody ever is doing "a very good job of
it". That's only natural, for atheist dogma demands of atheists, that they
look for faults, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies and cheats, NOT
truth, righteousness, honesty, generosity, rectitude, love, care and
devotion.
Naturally, the god or devil of YOUR definition doesn't exist, for
you
make sure of that, by defining the word as ludicrously as you possibly
can, i.e. sky pixy, pink unicorn etc.
We're using *YOUR* definition, and you're not doing a very good job at
evidencing your definition.
You also lie a lot, and are proud of it. My definitions of God or devil
are those of Christ Himself, that's why I am a Christian. See below
Pastor Frank
"GOD" THE CHRISTIAN MEANING OF THE WORD ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE:
Jesus in Jn:4:24: "GOD IS A SPIRIT, and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth."
Jesus in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the way, the truth,
and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known
me,
ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE KNOW HIM AND
HAVE SEEN HIM."
Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us."
Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER;
and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am
in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I
speak
not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
Jesus in Jn:10:30: I and my Father are one.
Jesus in John 12:44-46`Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes
in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me. And he who sees me sees
Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever
believes in me should not abide in darkness."
Jesus in Lk 17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said: "The kingdom of
God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo
there! For, behold, the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU."
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as
certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
16 Feb 2006 05:00:01 PM |
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"Popperian" <popperian@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3KudnUfJW46_BGnenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
There's an awful lot of 'begging the question' going on here. If one
assumes materialism (physicalism, behaviouism, functionalism), then God
(at least the theistic view of God) evaporates;
You forgot to list your view of "the theistic view of God", because the
theist's view of God ranges all the way from the material, though invisible
type of god al la Zeus, Odin, YHVH et al, to the purely spiritual i.e. "God
is a spirit" (Jesus in John 4:24) and/or "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16).
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
17 Feb 2006 09:39:19 AM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"Popperian" <popperian@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3KudnUfJW46_BGnenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
There's an awful lot of 'begging the question' going on here. If one
assumes materialism (physicalism, behaviouism, functionalism), then God
(at least the theistic view of God) evaporates;
You forgot to list your view of "the theistic view of God", because the
theist's view of God ranges all the way from the material, though invisible
type of god al la Zeus, Odin, YHVH et al, to the purely spiritual i.e. "God
is a spirit" (Jesus in John 4:24) and/or "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16).
===>All of which is blatant idolatry, i.e. the worship of some IMAGE
(material or mental). -- L.
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
18 Feb 2006 02:07:07 AM |
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"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:43F5EE27.835AAE02@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Popperian" <popperian@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3KudnUfJW46_BGnenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
There's an awful lot of 'begging the question' going on here. If one
assumes materialism (physicalism, behaviouism, functionalism), then God
(at least the theistic view of God) evaporates;
You forgot to list your view of "the theistic view of God", because
the
theist's view of God ranges all the way from the material, though
invisible
type of god al la Zeus, Odin, YHVH et al, to the purely spiritual i.e.
"God
is a spirit" (Jesus in John 4:24) and/or "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16).
===>All of which is blatant idolatry, i.e. the worship of some IMAGE
(material or mental). -- L.
Untrue, for God represents ideals of behaviour that get you to heaven,
and which Jesus spent a life-time advocating.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
18 Feb 2006 10:29:36 AM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:43F5EE27.835AAE02@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Popperian" <popperian@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3KudnUfJW46_BGnenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
There's an awful lot of 'begging the question' going on here. If one
assumes materialism (physicalism, behaviouism, functionalism), then God
(at least the theistic view of God) evaporates;
You forgot to list your view of "the theistic view of God", because
the
theist's view of God ranges all the way from the material, though
invisible
type of god al la Zeus, Odin, YHVH et al, to the purely spiritual i.e.
"God
is a spirit" (Jesus in John 4:24) and/or "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16).
===>All of which is blatant idolatry, i.e. the worship of some IMAGE
(material or mental). -- L.
Untrue, for God represents ideals of behaviour that get you to heaven,
===>Even if you call your "god" some "ideals of behavior",
such "ideals are created by human minds, and when worshipped,
it is IDOLATRY.
As for "getting to heaven", it is just another fantasy, perpetrated to
control the flock.
and which Jesus spent a life-time advocating.
===>What if "Jesus" did that?
Lots of people have "spent a life-time advocating" things.
And what is your evidence there ever was such a person? -- L.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
|
| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
19 Feb 2006 07:29:36 AM |
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|
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:43F74B70.D208B272@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:43F5EE27.835AAE02@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Popperian" <popperian@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3KudnUfJW46_BGnenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
There's an awful lot of 'begging the question' going on here. If one
assumes materialism (physicalism, behaviouism, functionalism), then
God
(at least the theistic view of God) evaporates;
You forgot to list your view of "the theistic view of God",
because
the
theist's view of God ranges all the way from the material, though
invisible
type of god al la Zeus, Odin, YHVH et al, to the purely spiritual i.e.
"God
is a spirit" (Jesus in John 4:24) and/or "God is love" (1 John
4:8,16).
===>All of which is blatant idolatry, i.e. the worship of some IMAGE
(material or mental). -- L.
Untrue, for God represents ideals of behaviour that get you to
heaven,
===>Even if you call your "god" some "ideals of behavior",
such "ideals are created by human minds, and when worshipped,
it is IDOLATRY.
As for "getting to heaven", it is just another fantasy, perpetrated to
control the flock.
and which Jesus spent a life-time advocating.
===>What if "Jesus" did that?
Lots of people have "spent a life-time advocating" things.
And what is your evidence there ever was such a person? -- L.
These are atheist mantras you are chanting Libertine, yet you keep
saying you are no atheist. Were you lying?
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
|
| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
20 Feb 2006 04:14:43 AM |
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On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 21:29:36 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.edu> wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:43F74B70.D208B272@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:43F5EE27.835AAE02@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Popperian" <popperian@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3KudnUfJW46_BGnenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
There's an awful lot of 'begging the question' going on here. If one
assumes materialism (physicalism, behaviouism, functionalism), then
God
(at least the theistic view of God) evaporates;
You forgot to list your view of "the theistic view of God",
because
the
theist's view of God ranges all the way from the material, though
invisible
type of god al la Zeus, Odin, YHVH et al, to the purely spiritual i.e.
"God
is a spirit" (Jesus in John 4:24) and/or "God is love" (1 John
4:8,16).
===>All of which is blatant idolatry, i.e. the worship of some IMAGE
(material or mental). -- L.
Untrue, for God represents ideals of behaviour that get you to
heaven,
===>Even if you call your "god" some "ideals of behavior",
such "ideals are created by human minds, and when worshipped,
it is IDOLATRY.
As for "getting to heaven", it is just another fantasy, perpetrated to
control the flock.
and which Jesus spent a life-time advocating.
===>What if "Jesus" did that?
Lots of people have "spent a life-time advocating" things.
And what is your evidence there ever was such a person? -- L.
These are atheist mantras you are chanting Libertine, yet you keep
saying you are no atheist. Were you lying?
That was a question not a mantra. I look forward to reading your
answer, or don't you do answers and explanations?
--
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
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| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
20 Feb 2006 10:55:35 AM |
|
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Les Hellawell wrote:
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 21:29:36 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.edu> wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:43F74B70.D208B272@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:43F5EE27.835AAE02@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Popperian" <popperian@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3KudnUfJW46_BGnenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
There's an awful lot of 'begging the question' going on here. If one
assumes materialism (physicalism, behaviouism, functionalism), then
God
(at least the theistic view of God) evaporates;
You forgot to list your view of "the theistic view of God",
because
the
theist's view of God ranges all the way from the material, though
invisible
type of god al la Zeus, Odin, YHVH et al, to the purely spiritual i.e.
"God
is a spirit" (Jesus in John 4:24) and/or "God is love" (1 John
4:8,16).
===>All of which is blatant idolatry, i.e. the worship of some IMAGE
(material or mental). -- L.
Untrue, for God represents ideals of behaviour that get you to
heaven,
===>Even if you call your "god" some "ideals of behavior",
such "ideals are created by human minds, and when worshipped,
it is IDOLATRY.
As for "getting to heaven", it is just another fantasy, perpetrated to
control the flock.
and which Jesus spent a life-time advocating.
===>What if "Jesus" did that?
Lots of people have "spent a life-time advocating" things.
And what is your evidence there ever was such a person? -- L.
These are atheist mantras you are chanting Libertine, yet you keep
saying you are no atheist. Were you lying?
That was a question not a mantra. I look forward to reading your
answer, or don't you do answers and explanations?
===>See my response.
He is incapable of giving an intelligent answer.
The poor guy is getting dumber with every post he makes. -- L.
.
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
|
| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
22 Feb 2006 10:32:35 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 09:55:35 -0700, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
Les Hellawell wrote:
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 21:29:36 +0800, "Pastor Frank"
<PF@christfirst.edu> wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:43F74B70.D208B272@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:43F5EE27.835AAE02@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Popperian" <popperian@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3KudnUfJW46_BGnenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
There's an awful lot of 'begging the question' going on here. If one
assumes materialism (physicalism, behaviouism, functionalism), then
God
(at least the theistic view of God) evaporates;
You forgot to list your view of "the theistic view of God",
because
the
theist's view of God ranges all the way from the material, though
invisible
type of god al la Zeus, Odin, YHVH et al, to the purely spiritual i.e.
"God
is a spirit" (Jesus in John 4:24) and/or "God is love" (1 John
4:8,16).
===>All of which is blatant idolatry, i.e. the worship of some IMAGE
(material or mental). -- L.
Untrue, for God represents ideals of behaviour that get you to
heaven,
===>Even if you call your "god" some "ideals of behavior",
such "ideals are created by human minds, and when worshipped,
it is IDOLATRY.
As for "getting to heaven", it is just another fantasy, perpetrated to
control the flock.
and which Jesus spent a life-time advocating.
===>What if "Jesus" did that?
Lots of people have "spent a life-time advocating" things.
And what is your evidence there ever was such a person? -- L.
These are atheist mantras you are chanting Libertine, yet you keep
saying you are no atheist. Were you lying?
That was a question not a mantra. I look forward to reading your
answer, or don't you do answers and explanations?
===>See my response.
He is incapable of giving an intelligent answer.
The poor guy is getting dumber with every post he makes. -- L.
I have just done a 'read all headers' instead of the usual 'new
headers' and it is throwing up quite a few responces that I
had not seen before.
No comment to your post necessary and, of course silence
from Pastor as expected.
(crossposts trimmed)
--
Les Hellawell
Greetings from:
YORKSHIRE The White Rose County
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
20 Feb 2006 10:53:18 AM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:43F74B70.D208B272@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
news:43F5EE27.835AAE02@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Popperian" <popperian@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3KudnUfJW46_BGnenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
There's an awful lot of 'begging the question' going on here. If one
assumes materialism (physicalism, behaviouism, functionalism), then
God
(at least the theistic view of God) evaporates;
You forgot to list your view of "the theistic view of God",
because
the
theist's view of God ranges all the way from the material, though
invisible
type of god al la Zeus, Odin, YHVH et al, to the purely spiritual i.e.
"God
is a spirit" (Jesus in John 4:24) and/or "God is love" (1 John
4:8,16).
===>All of which is blatant idolatry, i.e. the worship of some IMAGE
(material or mental). -- L.
Untrue, for God represents ideals of behaviour that get you to
heaven,
===>Even if you call your "god" some "ideals of behavior",
such "ideals are created by human minds, and when worshipped,
it is IDOLATRY.
As for "getting to heaven", it is just another fantasy, perpetrated to
control the flock.
and which Jesus spent a life-time advocating.
===>What if "Jesus" did that?
Lots of people have "spent a life-time advocating" things.
And what is your evidence there ever was such a person? -- L.
These are atheist mantras
===>Is that the most intelligent answer you can give?
Get your IQ tested.
You level is rapidly deteriorating. -- L.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
16 Feb 2006 07:29:21 PM |
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Popperian wrote:
There's an awful lot of 'begging the question' going on here. If one
assumes materialism (physicalism, behaviouism, functionalism), then God
(at least the theistic view of God) evaporates; if one assumes all
religious language is meaningless because it isn't empirically
verifiable, then the theistic concept (as well as many other concepts)
of God is meaningless; if the Bible is true and tells us God exists,
then he exists.
There are two gods here, the Greek philospher's god and the bible god.
From Greek philosophy we get a perfect god who is omni-everything.
God of the bible is not omniscient enodugh to see his lie to Adam will
not long dissuade Adam from eating god's magic fruit.
The Greek god is good. The Bible god is an evil, genocidal, callous
*****.
The Greek god is omnipotent.
The Bible god cannot defeat chariopts of iron. In Exodus
4, God tries to kill Moses and fails, not very omnipotent at all.
Which god are you speaking of here.
Atheists should NEVER let bleaters get by with arguing one and
then teh other.
One OR the other.
Ex 4
24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and
sought to kill him.
25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son,
and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to
me. (sharp...: or, knife) (cast...: Heb. made it touch)
26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art , because
of the circumcision.
The problem here is that we're 'assuming' that materialism is true,
that language must be verified empirically to be meaning, or that the
Bible is true. All beg the question and are spurious logically.
To say materialism is true is to say that there is something (truth)
beyond materialism and that is self-contradictory. If materialism is
true, we wouldn't know it is. If language is meaningless unless it is
empirically verifiable, wouldn't our concept of 'meaninglessness' be
meaningless (another self-contradiction)? If the Bible were true, how
would we know it was true? Appealing to the Bible to prove the Bible is
again begging the question.
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:43f40cc9$0$17684$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.com...
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:Xns976B842A17AA7fstone69@81.174.50.80...
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:43f33225$0$1101$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.com:
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:0OQHf.6767$S03.6077@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
There are some very simple facts and challenges that refute
the
existence of any real god.
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) and there is plenty
of
evidence that our God exists. In fact we are to evidence the
existence of our God in every loving and caring word and action.
You aren't doing a very good job of it, Frankie.
Judging from you past posts, nobody ever is doing "a very good job
of
it". That's only natural, for atheist dogma demands of atheists, that
they look for faults, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies and
cheats, NOT truth, righteousness, honesty, generosity, rectitude,
love, care and devotion.
Naturally, the god or devil of YOUR definition doesn't exist,
for you
make sure of that, by defining the word as ludicrously as you
possibly can, i.e. sky pixy, pink unicorn etc.
We're using *YOUR* definition, and you're not doing a very good job
at evidencing your definition.
You also lie a lot, and are proud of it. My definitions of God or
devil
are those of Christ Himself, that's why I am a Christian. See below
Pastor Frank
"GOD" THE CHRISTIAN MEANING OF THE WORD ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE:
Jesus in Jn:4:24: "GOD IS A SPIRIT, and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth."
Jesus in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the way, the
truth,
and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had
known me,
ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE KNOW HIM
AND HAVE SEEN HIM."
Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth
us."
Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER;
and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father? Believest thou not that
I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto
you I speak
not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the
works."
Jesus in Jn:10:30: I and my Father are one.
Jesus in John 12:44-46`Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who
believes
in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me. And he who sees me
sees
Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever
believes in me should not abide in darkness."
Jesus in Lk 17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees,
when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said: "The
kingdom of God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo
here! or, lo there! For, behold, the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU."
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to
us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in
him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as
certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
http://www.SecureIX.com ***
--
"If I saw a man beating a tied up horse, I could
not prove it was wrong, but I'd know it was wrong."
- Mark Twain
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
|
| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
16 Feb 2006 08:47:15 PM |
|
|
wbarwell wrote:
Popperian wrote:
There's an awful lot of 'begging the question' going on here. If one
assumes materialism (physicalism, behaviouism, functionalism), then God
(at least the theistic view of God) evaporates; if one assumes all
religious language is meaningless because it isn't empirically
verifiable, then the theistic concept (as well as many other concepts)
of God is meaningless; if the Bible is true and tells us God exists,
then he exists.
There are two gods here, the Greek philospher's god and the bible god.
From Greek philosophy we get a perfect god who is omni-everything.
God of the bible is not omniscient enodugh to see his lie to Adam will
not long dissuade Adam from eating god's magic fruit.
The Greek god is good. The Bible god is an evil, genocidal, callous
*****.
The Greek god is omnipotent.
The Bible god cannot defeat chariopts of iron. In Exodus
4, God tries to kill Moses and fails, not very omnipotent at all.
Which god are you speaking of here.
Atheists should NEVER let bleaters get by with arguing one and
then teh other.
One OR the other.
===>The answer is: NEITHER.
As Einstein said, he believes in
"Spinoza's God" -- i.e. NATURE,
the COSMIC TOTALITY, not some
perfect or imperfect "person(s)" in the sky. -- L.
Ex 4
24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and
sought to kill him.
25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son,
and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to
me. (sharp...: or, knife) (cast...: Heb. made it touch)
26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art , because
of the circumcision.
The problem here is that we're 'assuming' that materialism is true,
that language must be verified empirically to be meaning, or that the
Bible is true. All beg the question and are spurious logically.
To say materialism is true is to say that there is something (truth)
beyond materialism and that is self-contradictory. If materialism is
true, we wouldn't know it is. If language is meaningless unless it is
empirically verifiable, wouldn't our concept of 'meaninglessness' be
meaningless (another self-contradiction)? If the Bible were true, how
would we know it was true? Appealing to the Bible to prove the Bible is
again begging the question.
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in message
news:43f40cc9$0$17684$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.com...
"Fred Stone" <fstone69@earthling.com> wrote in message
news:Xns976B842A17AA7fstone69@81.174.50.80...
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.edu> wrote in
news:43f33225$0$1101$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.com:
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:0OQHf.6767$S03.6077@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
There are some very simple facts and challenges that refute
the
existence of any real god.
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) and there is plenty
of
evidence that our God exists. In fact we are to evidence the
existence of our God in every loving and caring word and action.
You aren't doing a very good job of it, Frankie.
Judging from you past posts, nobody ever is doing "a very good job
of
it". That's only natural, for atheist dogma demands of atheists, that
they look for faults, errors, mistakes, inconsistencies, lies and
cheats, NOT truth, righteousness, honesty, generosity, rectitude,
love, care and devotion.
Naturally, the god or devil of YOUR definition doesn't exist,
for you
make sure of that, by defining the word as ludicrously as you
possibly can, i.e. sky pixy, pink unicorn etc.
We're using *YOUR* definition, and you're not doing a very good job
at evidencing your definition.
You also lie a lot, and are proud of it. My definitions of God or
devil
are those of Christ Himself, that's why I am a Christian. See below
Pastor Frank
"GOD" THE CHRISTIAN MEANING OF THE WORD ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE:
Jesus in Jn:4:24: "GOD IS A SPIRIT, and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth."
Jesus in John 14:6-10: Jesus saith unto him: "I am the way, the
truth,
and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had
known me,
ye should have known my Father also, and from henceforth YE KNOW HIM
AND HAVE SEEN HIM."
Philip saith unto him: "Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth
us."
Jesus saith unto him: "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER;
and how sayest thou then: Show us the Father? Believest thou not that
I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto
you I speak
not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the
works."
Jesus in Jn:10:30: I and my Father are one.
Jesus in John 12:44-46`Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who
believes
in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me. And he who sees me
sees
Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever
believes in me should not abide in darkness."
Jesus in Lk 17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees,
when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said: "The
kingdom of God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo
here! or, lo there! For, behold, the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU."
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to
us.
GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in
him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as
certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from
http://www.SecureIX.com ***
--
"If I saw a man beating a tied up horse, I could
not prove it was wrong, but I'd know it was wrong."
- Mark Twain
Cheerful Charlie
.
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| User: "Josh" |
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| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
14 Feb 2006 06:04:15 PM |
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After all the discussion about evidence in these posts, can you believers
provide some answers based on evidence to these fundamentally important
questions about the existence of God ?
1 How old is God?
2 How did he achieve his omniscience and omnipotence?
3 What was he doing before he created the world as described in Genesis?
4 How much would you trust a person about whose previous existence and
credentials you know nothing?
5 Did you break the rules and guess the answers to these questions rather
than provide evidence?
6 Have you decided not to answer at all, and why?
"Bill" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:0OQHf.6767$S03.6077@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
There are some very simple facts and challenges that refute the
existence of any real
Gods.
1.. Although there are hundreds of different religions, god beliefs and
documents, NO god has ever demonstrated or proven the authenticity of ANY
of
them. Only errant self interested men have claimed their authenticity. All
of these many ancient documents were written by fallible men with their
own
selfish motivations. Why would not a real god announce directly and
authoritatively from his heaven, that he is the real god and what
documents
are authentic and what are fakes and destroy them? He certainly should
want
to prevent his creations from being deceived and mislead.
2.. Although billions of people have died there is not a single
'authenticated and proven' case where anyone of them has ever communicated
with their living children, spouses or friends. Why would god not allow
these souls in his heaven to explain and confirm the virtues, benefits and
even the existence of his heaven?
3.. If there is a 'real' god creator why did he create a world that so
punishes his creations with thousands of diseases, Hurricanes, Tsunamis,
Earth quakes, volcanic destruction, Blizzards, Tornados, and Wars etc. Why
does he permit these things to punish perfectly innocent children? Why
does
he cause people to suffer the many diseases and infirmaries of old age?
4.. What is the logic of putting men, women and totally innocent children
through the tortures of life on earth and then provide them with an
eternal,
pleasant and happy life in his heaven. Why did he not skip the unfair
punishment of life on earth and just let his creature enjoy their
wonderful
heaven?
The objective evidence is that no gods create man but quite the opposite;
that man created gods.
.
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| User: "fred" |
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| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
13 Feb 2006 12:31:06 PM |
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Bill wrote:
There are some very simple facts and challenges that refute the
existence of any real
Gods.
1.. Although there are hundreds of different religions, god beliefs and
documents, NO god has ever demonstrated or proven the authenticity of ANY of
them. Only errant self interested men have claimed their authenticity. All
of these many ancient documents were written by fallible men with their own
selfish motivations. Why would not a real god announce directly and
authoritatively from his heaven, that he is the real god and what documents
are authentic and what are fakes and destroy them? He certainly should want
to prevent his creations from being deceived and mislead.
2.. Although billions of people have died there is not a single
'authenticated and proven' case where anyone of them has ever communicated
with their living children, spouses or friends. Why would god not allow
these souls in his heaven to explain and confirm the virtues, benefits and
even the existence of his heaven?
3.. If there is a 'real' god creator why did he create a world that so
punishes his creations with thousands of diseases, Hurricanes, Tsunamis,
Earth quakes, volcanic destruction, Blizzards, Tornados, and Wars etc. Why
does he permit these things to punish perfectly innocent children? Why does
he cause people to suffer the many diseases and infirmaries of old age?
4.. What is the logic of putting men, women and totally innocent children
through the tortures of life on earth and then provide them with an eternal,
pleasant and happy life in his heaven. Why did he not skip the unfair
punishment of life on earth and just let his creature enjoy their wonderful
heaven?
The objective evidence is that no gods create man but quite the opposite;
that man created gods.
Where's the beef? You're fooling yourself about your so-called
objective evidence above.
.
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: EVIDENCE NO GODS EXIST |
13 Feb 2006 04:27:48 PM |
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"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1139855466.062645.221970@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the
opposite;
that man created gods.
Where's the beef? You're fooling yourself about your so-called
objective evidence above.
Use your brain. If no god exists than the concept of god had to be the
creation of man!
.
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