| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jeremy" |
| Date: |
20 Aug 2003 08:27:43 PM |
| Object: |
Evidences of God - Preface |
Evidences of God - Preface
I have recently been involved in discussions that have been crossposted
in several newsgroups. Because, in all of these newsgroups, people have
asked me for my evidence that God exists, I am cross posting this thread
to all of these newsgroups, so that everyone who has been discussing on
the other threads will see and be able to converse in this thread.
Some of the items that I will be posting will be items that I have
posted before. I know this, but everyone may not have read them that
will be in this discussion, so I am reposting it.
Because of the amount of information that I plan on posting for this
discussion, I would like to make a suggestion. If you plan on posting a
reply to a single point made in the discussion, please append a suffix
(or change an existing one) to the subject line of the post. It will
make it easier to follow the threads.
Also please note that, unless I state otherwise, my postings will be
based on my beliefs. I know that there will be other people who have
differing beliefs and opinions, and that is fine.
In summary, I want to be able to have an honest, open minded discussion
on the subject. By open minded I simply mean that we look at each post,
regardless of the author, at face value. We should at least try to
understand what the author is saying before replying. I am not saying
that anyone needs to believe or accept anything that is posted, I would
just ask that we respect each other's views as being valid in their eyes.
Now I know asking Usenet posters to behave can be like asking a dog to
quit chasing cats, but at least I made the attempt.
--- Jeremy
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| User: "Bob Crowley" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature" -- THE CHAIR |
05 Oct 2003 05:14:58 PM |
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Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message news:<3F7EFFDD.B89EAEDC@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net>...
===>Perhaps you need to start THINKING more! ;-) -- L.
Oh, I think. My wife thinks I'm in LaLa Land a lot of the time.
===>Tell her what I said.
Obviously you have never been married. One of the things that amazes
me is that there are powerful men in politics, business etc. whom few
people would dare gainsay. But when it comes to the home, the little
lady is "she who must be obeyed", even if nobody else is. He's got to
live there.
BC.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature" -- THE CHAIR |
05 Oct 2003 10:37:05 PM |
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Bob Crowley wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message news:<3F7EFFDD.B89EAEDC@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net>...
===>Perhaps you need to start THINKING more! ;-) -- L.
Oh, I think. My wife thinks I'm in LaLa Land a lot of the time.
===>Tell her what I said.
Obviously you have never been married.
===Several decades, very happily implementing
the advise of Eccl. 9.
One of the things that amazes
me is that there are powerful men in politics, business etc. whom few
people would dare gainsay. But when it comes to the home, the little
lady is "she who must be obeyed", even if nobody else is. He's got to
live there.
===>You have a weird idea about marriage, but if it works for you,
BE HAPPY!
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature" -- THE CHAIR |
03 Oct 2003 08:58:04 AM |
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Bob Crowley wrote:
Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message news:<3F7CEB3D.16A7A2E4@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net>...
===>He cannot "decide" to allow something else to happen other than what
he ALREADY KNOWS will happen IN ADVANCE.
He KNEW IN ADVANCE that IF he created ADAM and EVE,
and IF he placed that tree and that snake with them in the Garden,
the earthlings would disobey his warning. So, by going ahead and
making them, he created them TO FAIL!
There is an element of predestination in the Bible. The problem we
are dealing with here is an infinite mind, able to accommodate free
will from our viewpoint and predestination from His.
We do not have infinite intelligence. For example we have a couple of
goldfish in a pond, a dog and a cat. Now the intelligence who planned
them had to allow for the common elements of a digestive system,
heart, brain, nervous system etc. all beforehand, however they
actually "arrived". In short in this colossal "mind" is the thought
the humans will need "pets" even thought "pets" are unknown in heaven.
Then He has to think about the different characteristics - a cat for
cleanliness, a dog for loyalty, a goldfish for beauty, and how He is
going to accommodate these things. All the biological and
neurological design has to be worked out beforehand, so that in the
dog's case for example we have an extremely complex animal (taking
into account all the complexities of the biochemical reactions going
on) which does relatively simple things - barks, bails up the postman
etc.
when do they unchain you and let you out into the garden for a walk!
Robot engineers did not find bipedal motion easy to emulate, partly
because muscle has the advantage that power can be applied throughout
the tissue, whereas engineering designs tend to have the power applied
at the point of contact only.
So He effectively had to work out "in His Head" so to speak, a
universe in advance, and then create it, right down to details like
the flight of a housefly.
Into this He inserts an amphibious creature Man, half biological and
half spiritual.
A creature He had already made, Lucifer, got jealous when he realised
Man's final estate, and decided to take it out by destroying Man as
far as he could.
This has all been planned in advance, even the Devil's rebellion. Now
the rebellion may not be something God actively "wants", but at the
same time He cannot avoid it. He knew Lucifer would rebel, but He
could not prevent it, unless He removed Lucifer's ability to rebel.
It is a bit like chess. All the pieces are in full view of the
opposing players, and nothing is hidden except the strategy in the
opposing players' minds.
The bits on the board don't have much choice, although if they had
enough self determining ability to accept or refuse the player's
choice (eg. a pawn, not trusting the player, decides he will not move
forward one space), then we might begin to approach the concept.
We're dealing with an infinite mind, or rather, He is dealing with us.
Like an auto manufacturer producing a car that all engineering advice
shows will be an accident ready to happen.
Except the car has no choice in the matter, and needs a driver with
free will to carry out the circumstances of the accident. We will, in
the end, demonstrate whether we were WILLING or not to do God's will.
I don't like it much, as I think it is unfair. However God is unfair
to many people really eg. the poor, deprived third worlder who gets
leprosy has every reason to think God has given him a raw deal. And
in terms of this worlds wealth, He has.
Sometimes I think we need to forgive God. Purists will disagree,
saying God is holy etc. and hasn't done anything to deserve
forgiveness. Frankly I disagree - I think God has a great deal to
answer for. However if there is going to be "love" between God and
Man, then God might like to be forgiven. After all, He has to forgive
us for a lot.
Maybe He really wants friends, who forgive not only their enemies, but
also Him.
Christ intimated He will be so grateful, He will serve them at the
heavenly banquet.
The whole thing has been set up so God knows who want to be His
friends, and who do not.
On things like this I sit and think.
Most times I just sit.
Bob Crowley.
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
26 Sep 2003 01:09:09 AM |
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JoeCool wrote:
Evil is a human failing. Yes God created us so you can
argue God created evil.
Man created god in his image.
--
David V.
Yosemite Llama Ranch
dave@TheLlamaRanch.com
http://www.TheLlamaRanch.com
UDP for WebTV
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
26 Sep 2003 01:50:15 AM |
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On 25 Sep 2003 12:13:52 -0700, (JoeCool) wrote:
Evil is a human failing. Yes God created us so you can argue God
created evil.
Would you refuse to have a child because he will grow up with the
ability to make evil choices?
Would you create a child who you knew would grow up to do great evil?
If you could would you remove the ability of your child to choose
between good and evil?
Why not remove evil itself and allow the child to choose between an
infinity of good things?
I do my best to teach my child to make the right decisions, but I
still want him to be able to choose. Just as the God I worship has
given us instruction in right and wrong and wants us to choose. The
good is in the choice of one way over another.
Do you leave dangerous items around the house for your child to choose
to play with or to leave alone? Would you make dangerous items if you
did not have to?
Many of the postings assume that all Christians are bible literalist,
which many of us are not. The bible is an attempt of man to teach
God's word, and is as imperfect as man himself. Is it useless? To me
no, it is full of teachings that benifit all of mankind. Worship your
God with all of your heart, your soul, and YOUR MIND.
What god?
Thomas P.
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
26 Sep 2003 02:06:09 PM |
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"Thomas P." wrote:
On 25 Sep 2003 12:13:52 -0700, (JoeCool) wrote:
Evil is a human failing. Yes God created us so you can argue God
created evil.
Would you refuse to have a child because he will grow up with the
ability to make evil choices?
Would you create a child who you knew would grow up to do great evil?
If you could would you remove the ability of your child to choose
between good and evil?
Why not remove evil itself and allow the child to choose between an
infinity of good things?
I do my best to teach my child to make the right decisions, but I
still want him to be able to choose. Just as the God I worship has
given us instruction in right and wrong and wants us to choose. The
good is in the choice of one way over another.
Do you leave dangerous items around the house for your child to choose
to play with or to leave alone? Would you make dangerous items if you
did not have to?
===>According to "free will" advocates, you would be OBLIGATED
to do so, otherwise you are not giving your child a choice! -- L.
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
26 Sep 2003 04:12:36 PM |
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On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:06:09 GMT, Libertarius
<The_Truth_The_Whole_Truth@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:
"Thomas P." wrote:
On 25 Sep 2003 12:13:52 -0700, (JoeCool) wrote:
Evil is a human failing. Yes God created us so you can argue God
created evil.
Would you refuse to have a child because he will grow up with the
ability to make evil choices?
Would you create a child who you knew would grow up to do great evil?
If you could would you remove the ability of your child to choose
between good and evil?
Why not remove evil itself and allow the child to choose between an
infinity of good things?
I do my best to teach my child to make the right decisions, but I
still want him to be able to choose. Just as the God I worship has
given us instruction in right and wrong and wants us to choose. The
good is in the choice of one way over another.
Do you leave dangerous items around the house for your child to choose
to play with or to leave alone? Would you make dangerous items if you
did not have to?
===>According to "free will" advocates, you would be OBLIGATED
to do so, otherwise you are not giving your child a choice! -- L.
I have never understood how they can make up so many silly analogies
comparing human parents to god. How can they not see that human
parents are forced to work within human limitations, but that those
limitations cannot apply to the god they describe?
Thomas P.
"That there are manes, a subterranean kingdom, a ferryman with a long pole, and black frogs in the whirlpools
of the Styx;that so many thousand men could cross the waves in a single boat,today even children refuse to believe."
Juvenal
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| User: "JoeCool" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
30 Sep 2003 10:57:00 AM |
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I believe if all evil choices were eliminated we would have no concept
of good.
It appears the important thing to God is the choice. He wants his
children to choose their path, with only the good path to follow,
their is no choice. He could have created a world of automated drones
programed not to do evil, but he created us in his image, I believe
this refers to free will more than apperance.
Peace,
Joe
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
30 Sep 2003 03:05:30 PM |
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On 30 Sep 2003 08:57:00 -0700, (JoeCool) wrote:
I believe if all evil choices were eliminated we would have no concept
of good.
So what?
It appears the important thing to God is the choice. He wants his
children to choose their path, with only the good path to follow,
their is no choice.
He could point out to each and every person what path is the good
path. He could also make each person smart enough to understand where
his interests are - or perhaps ignorance is also part of god's plan.
He could have created a world of automated drones
programed not to do evil, but he created us in his image,
Oh, does god do evil? Oh, right, he does; the Bible says so.
I believe
this refers to free will more than apperance.
And to doing evil, right? After all, as you indicated in the
beginning of your post, evil is necessary. We are actually doing good
when we do evil. We would not know what good was without evil,
therefore evil is really good; which means that there is no evil.
OOPS!
Thomas P.
"That there are manes, a subterranean kingdom, a ferryman with a long pole, and black frogs in the whirlpools
of the Styx; that so many thousand men could cross the waves in a single boat, today even children refuse to believe."
Juvenal
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| User: "JoeCool" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
01 Oct 2003 10:01:53 AM |
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Thomas P. <tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote in message news:<r9ojnvcb0n5jkvj997ogt8seqm92f42o17@4ax.com>...
On 30 Sep 2003 08:57:00 -0700, (JoeCool) wrote:
I believe if all evil choices were eliminated we would have no concept
of good.
So what?
It appears the important thing to God is the choice. He wants his
children to choose their path, with only the good path to follow,
their is no choice.
He could point out to each and every person what path is the good
path.
He Does
He could also make each person smart enough to understand where
his interests are - or perhaps ignorance is also part of god's plan.
Christians are smarter than non Christians?
He could have created a world of automated drones
programed not to do evil, but he created us in his image,
Oh, does god do evil? Oh, right, he does; the Bible says so.
God allows evil to exists, we do the evil>
I believe
this refers to free will more than apperance.
And to doing evil, right?
God does not do evil, he allows us to do it, and I am sure it saddens
him when we chose to do so.
After all, as you indicated in the
beginning of your post, evil is necessary. We are actually doing good
when we do evil. We would not know what good was without evil,
therefore evil is really good; which means that there is no evil.
OOPS!
Evil necessary? hmmmm? I guess in the same way that
liver and other foods that me want to blow are necessary so that I can
enjoy chocolate and beer. If everything tasted like chocolate and
beer would we still enjoy them?>
Thomas P.
"That there are manes, a subterranean kingdom, a ferryman with a long pole, and black frogs in the whirlpools
of the Styx; that so many thousand men could cross the waves in a single boat, today even children refuse to believe."
Juvenal
Peace,
Joe
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
01 Oct 2003 05:22:35 PM |
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On 1 Oct 2003 08:01:53 -0700, (JoeCool) wrote:
e Eagle) <dbda767e.0309300943.6cd7996c@posting.google.com> 0
Path: news.get2net.dk!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail
From: (Lone Eagle)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Good novel news
Date: 30 Sep 2003 10:43:44 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.cowith only the good path to follow,
their is no choice.
He could point out to each and every person what path is the good
path.
He Does
No, he does not. You may believe that we have all received some
clear message from your god, but you have no way to prove it; and, by
the way, I can assure you that you are wrong.
He could also make each person smart enough to understand where
his interests are - or perhaps ignorance is also part of god's plan.
Christians are smarter than non Christians?
Are Christians perfect? If not your question makes no sense. If true
then the problem still remains doesn't it?
He could have created a world of automated drones
programed not to do evil, but he created us in his image,
Oh, does god do evil? Oh, right, he does; the Bible says so.
God allows evil to exists, we do the evil>
That is not what the Bible says. Furthermore it must be good if it is
required as you claim it is.
I believe
this refers to free will more than apperance.
And to doing evil, right?
God does not do evil, he allows us to do it, and I am sure it saddens
him when we chose to do so.
Why would it sadden him when, as you say, it is necessary so that we
will know what good is?
After all, as you indicated in the
beginning of your post, evil is necessary. We are actually doing good
when we do evil. We would not know what good was without evil,
therefore evil is really good; which means that there is no evil.
OOPS!
Evil necessary? hmmmm? I guess in the same way that
liver and other foods that me want to blow are necessary so that I can
enjoy chocolate and beer. If everything tasted like chocolate and
beer would we still enjoy them?>
Then you confirm your claim that evil is necessary. It must be good
then. If nobody committed evil, we would not know what good was (your
argument). Therefore people who commit evil are doing everybody a
favor and are actually doing good (logical consequence of your
argument).
Thomas P.
"That there are manes, a subterranean kingdom, a ferryman with a long pole, and black frogs in the whirlpools
of the Styx; that so many thousand men could cross the waves in a single boat, today even children refuse to believe."
Juvenal
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| User: "JoeCool" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
02 Oct 2003 10:03:38 AM |
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Thomas P. <tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote in message news:<8pkmnv4bs7ei5otlgcp0pv5j4htf8b0apo@4ax.com>...
On 1 Oct 2003 08:01:53 -0700, (JoeCool) wrote:
e Eagle) <dbda767e.0309300943.6cd7996c@posting.google.com> 0
Path: news.get2net.dk!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail
From: (Lone Eagle)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Good novel news
Date: 30 Sep 2003 10:43:44 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.cowith only the good path to follow,
their is no choice.
He could point out to each and every person what path is the good
path.
He Does
No, he does not. You may believe that we have all received some
clear message from your god, but you have no way to prove it; and, by
the way, I can assure you that you are wrong.
The message is there, in many forms, not just christianity. Truth is
truth but some choose to close their eyes.
He could also make each person smart enough to understand where
his interests are - or perhaps ignorance is also part of god's plan.
Christians are smarter than non Christians?
Are Christians perfect? If not your question makes no sense. If true
then the problem still remains doesn't it?
It is not "our" intrests that Christians should be concerned with but
the intrests of others. And yes he made us smart enough to know where
others intrests are, but back to the free choice we do not always
choose to love others.
He could have created a world of automated drones
programed not to do evil, but he created us in his image,
Oh, does god do evil? Oh, right, he does; the Bible says so.
God allows evil to exists, we do the evil>
That is not what the Bible says. Furthermore it must be good if it is
required as you claim it is.
The bible says many things, many contridicting what was earlier said,
(sorry literalists) however, Jesus does not contricict himself, his
message is clear.
I believe
this refers to free will more than apperance.
And to doing evil, right?
God does not do evil, he allows us to do it, and I am sure it saddens
him when we chose to do so.
Why would it sadden him when, as you say, it is necessary so that we
will know what good is?
good point, it saddens him when we repeatedly choose to do evil.
After all, as you indicated in the
beginning of your post, evil is necessary. We are actually doing good
when we do evil. We would not know what good was without evil,
therefore evil is really good; which means that there is no evil.
OOPS!
Evil necessary? hmmmm? I guess in the same way that
liver and other foods that me want to blow are necessary so that I can
enjoy chocolate and beer. If everything tasted like chocolate and
beer would we still enjoy them?>
Then you confirm your claim that evil is necessary. It must be good
then. If nobody committed evil, we would not know what good was (your
argument). Therefore people who commit evil are doing everybody a
favor and are actually doing good (logical consequence of your
argument).
You are confusing necessary and good, and necessary with inevitable.
evil will happen, does that make it necessary? No, free choice is
necessary, evil is a byproduct. Does that make it Good? Absoulatly not
Peace, Joe
Thomas P.
"That there are manes, a subterranean kingdom, a ferryman with a long pole, and black frogs in the whirlpools
of the Styx; that so many thousand men could cross the waves in a single boat, today even children refuse to believe."
Juvenal
.
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
03 Oct 2003 01:29:44 AM |
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On 2 Oct 2003 08:03:38 -0700, (JoeCool) wrote:
Thomas P. <tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote in message news:<8pkmnv4bs7ei5otlgcp0pv5j4htf8b0apo@4ax.com>...
On 1 Oct 2003 08:01:53 -0700, (JoeCool) wrote:
e Eagle) <dbda767e.0309300943.6cd7996c@posting.google.com> 0
Path: news.get2net.dk!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail
From: (Lone Eagle)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Good novel news
Date: 30 Sep 2003 10:43:44 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.cowith only the good path to follow,
their is no choice.
He could point out to each and every person what path is the good
path.
He Does
No, he does not. You may believe that we have all received some
clear message from your god, but you have no way to prove it; and, by
the way, I can assure you that you are wrong.
The message is there, in many forms, not just christianity. Truth is
truth but some choose to close their eyes.
That is merely your claim. You have no evidence for any of it and
especially none for what others are thinking.
He could also make each person smart enough to understand where
his interests are - or perhaps ignorance is also part of god's plan.
Christians are smarter than non Christians?
Are Christians perfect? If not your question makes no sense. If true
then the problem still remains doesn't it?
It is not "our" intrests that Christians should be concerned with but
the intrests of others. And yes he made us smart enough to know where
others intrests are,
The above is both silly and arrogant.
but back to the free choice we do not always
choose to love others.
Your complete failure to address what was said is no surprise.
He could have created a world of automated drones
programed not to do evil, but he created us in his image,
Oh, does god do evil? Oh, right, he does; the Bible says so.
God allows evil to exists, we do the evil>
That is not what the Bible says. Furthermore it must be good if it is
required as you claim it is.
The bible says many things, many contridicting what was earlier said,
(sorry literalists) however, Jesus does not contricict himself, his
message is clear.
I see. The Bible is not to be relied upon, but the message of Jesus,
which is contained in the Bible, is clear.
I believe
this refers to free will more than apperance.
And to doing evil, right?
God does not do evil, he allows us to do it, and I am sure it saddens
him when we chose to do so.
Why would it sadden him when, as you say, it is necessary so that we
will know what good is?
good point, it saddens him when we repeatedly choose to do evil.
How much evil would make him happy?
After all, as you indicated in the
beginning of your post, evil is necessary. We are actually doing good
when we do evil. We would not know what good was without evil,
therefore evil is really good; which means that there is no evil.
OOPS!
Evil necessary? hmmmm? I guess in the same way that
liver and other foods that me want to blow are necessary so that I can
enjoy chocolate and beer. If everything tasted like chocolate and
beer would we still enjoy them?>
Then you confirm your claim that evil is necessary. It must be good
then. If nobody committed evil, we would not know what good was (your
argument). Therefore people who commit evil are doing everybody a
favor and are actually doing good (logical consequence of your
argument).
You are confusing necessary and good, and necessary with inevitable.
evil will happen, does that make it necessary? No, free choice is
necessary, evil is a byproduct. Does that make it Good? Absoulatly not
What you said was that without evil we would not know what good is.
You now change your story, but it doesn't help much. Does evil come
from good? You just said evil is a byproduct of free choice. If free
choice is good, then what necessarily comes from free choice must be
good.
Thomas P.
"That there are manes, a subterranean kingdom, a ferryman with a long pole, and black frogs in the whirlpools
of the Styx; that so many thousand men could cross the waves in a single boat, today even children refuse to believe."
Juvenal
.
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| User: "JoeCool" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
03 Oct 2003 12:14:54 PM |
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Thomas P. <tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote in message news:<od5qnv8lodk323mhgnjh9g6qvphg14c7th@4ax.com>...
On 2 Oct 2003 08:03:38 -0700, (JoeCool) wrote:
Thomas P. <tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote in message news:<8pkmnv4bs7ei5otlgcp0pv5j4htf8b0apo@4ax.com>...
On 1 Oct 2003 08:01:53 -0700, (JoeCool) wrote:
e Eagle) <dbda767e.0309300943.6cd7996c@posting.google.com> 0
Path: news.get2net.dk!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail
From: (Lone Eagle)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Good novel news
Date: 30 Sep 2003 10:43:44 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.cowith only the good path to follow,
their is no choice.
He could point out to each and every person what path is the good
path.
He Does
No, he does not. You may believe that we have all received some
clear message from your god, but you have no way to prove it; and, by
the way, I can assure you that you are wrong.
The message is there, in many forms, not just christianity. Truth is
truth but some choose to close their eyes.
That is merely your claim. You have no evidence for any of it and
especially none for what others are thinking.
wrong again, plenty of evidence. And where did I claim to know what
others are thinking? your losing it.
He could also make each person smart enough to understand where
his interests are - or perhaps ignorance is also part of god's plan.
Christians are smarter than non Christians?
Are Christians perfect? If not your question makes no sense. If true
then the problem still remains doesn't it?
It is not "our" intrests that Christians should be concerned with but
the intrests of others. And yes he made us smart enough to know where
others intrests are,
The above is both silly and arrogant.
Puting others intrests in front of our own is silly and arrogant? you
are a strange and confused person, compassionate was the word you were
looking for.
but back to the free choice we do not always
choose to love others.
Your complete failure to address what was said is no surprise.
Your complete failure to understan what was said is no surprise.
He could have created a world of automated drones
programed not to do evil, but he created us in his image,
Oh, does god do evil? Oh, right, he does; the Bible says so.
God allows evil to exists, we do the evil>
That is not what the Bible says. Furthermore it must be good if it is
required as you claim it is.
The bible says many things, many contridicting what was earlier said,
(sorry literalists) however, Jesus does not contricict himself, his
message is clear.
I see. The Bible is not to be relied upon, but the message of Jesus,
which is contained in the Bible, is clear.
Are our history books to be relied upon 100%? No they contain
errors. Do they contain truths, of course. Same with the bible. How
do we know what part to believe? Study, Study, Study, especially the
words of Jesus, he cleared things up nicely! also go to various
sources, read the orginal Hebrew texts. "Love your God with all your
heart, all your soul, and all of your MIND." Not love your God
blindly.
I believe
this refers to free will more than apperance.
And to doing evil, right?
God does not do evil, he allows us to do it, and I am sure it saddens
him when we chose to do so.
Why would it sadden him when, as you say, it is necessary so that we
will know what good is?
good point, it saddens him when we repeatedly choose to do evil.
How much evil would make him happy?
?????? As I have said before, the chocie of Good over Evil by his children is what makes him happy.
After all, as you indicated in the
beginning of your post, evil is necessary. We are actually doing good
when we do evil. We would not know what good was without evil,
therefore evil is really good; which means that there is no evil.
OOPS!
Evil necessary? hmmmm? I guess in the same way that
liver and other foods that me want to blow are necessary so that I can
enjoy chocolate and beer. If everything tasted like chocolate and
beer would we still enjoy them?>
Then you confirm your claim that evil is necessary. It must be good
then. If nobody committed evil, we would not know what good was (your
argument). Therefore people who commit evil are doing everybody a
favor and are actually doing good (logical consequence of your
argument).
You are confusing necessary and good, and necessary with inevitable.
evil will happen, does that make it necessary? No, free choice is
necessary, evil is a byproduct. Does that make it Good? Absoulatly not
What you said was that without evil we would not know what good is.
You now change your story, but it doesn't help much. Does evil come
from good? You just said evil is a byproduct of free choice. If free
choice is good, then what necessarily comes from free choice must be
good.
Do you live in the real world? If something is good then everything
that comes from it has to be good? Of course not, we weigh our
choices everyday, most have consequences both positive and negative
and somewhere in between. We try to make the correct choices that tip
the scales in the right direction.
Thomas P.
Peace,
Joe
"That there are manes, a subterranean kingdom, a ferryman with a long pole, and black frogs in the whirlpools
of the Styx; that so many thousand men could cross the waves in a single boat, today even children refuse to believe."
Juvenal
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
03 Oct 2003 02:10:42 PM |
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JoeCool wrote:
Are our history books to be relied upon 100%? No they contain
errors.
===>Are our history books considered to be the "Word of God"???
Do they contain truths, of course.
Same with the bible.
===>"SAME"???
Asking in another way: "is the BIBLE considered to be the "Word of God"???
How
do we know what part to believe? Study, Study, Study, especially the
words of Jesus,
===>How do you KNOW which are the "words of Jesus" and which are
words put in the mouth of the Jesus CHARACTER by the authors?
he cleared things up nicely! also go to various
sources, read the orginal Hebrew texts. "Love your God with all your
heart, all your soul, and all of your MIND." Not love your God
blindly.
===>OK. Do you accept "blindly" that the words attributed to "GOD" were
really spoken by that "GOD" and the words attributed to JESUS were really
the words of JESUS. If you do, why? and if you don't, what are you criteria
for deciding?
Libertarius
============
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
03 Oct 2003 01:38:03 PM |
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On 3 Oct 2003 10:14:54 -0700, (JoeCool) wrote:
Thomas P. <tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote in message news:<od5qnv8lodk323mhgnjh9g6qvphg14c7th@4ax.com>...
On 2 Oct 2003 08:03:38 -0700, (JoeCool) wrote:
Thomas P. <tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote in message news:<8pkmnv4bs7ei5otlgcp0pv5j4htf8b0apo@4ax.com>...
On 1 Oct 2003 08:01:53 -0700, (JoeCool) wrote:
e Eagle) <dbda767e.0309300943.6cd7996c@posting.google.com> 0
Path: news.get2net.dk!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail
From: (Lone Eagle)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Good novel news
Date: 30 Sep 2003 10:43:44 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.cowith only the good path to follow,
their is no choice.
He could point out to each and every person what path is the good
path.
He Does
No, he does not. You may believe that we have all received some
clear message from your god, but you have no way to prove it; and, by
the way, I can assure you that you are wrong.
The message is there, in many forms, not just christianity. Truth is
truth but some choose to close their eyes.
That is merely your claim. You have no evidence for any of it and
especially none for what others are thinking.
wrong again, plenty of evidence. And where did I claim to know what
others are thinking? your losing it.
In the post I was responding to above the following was stated:
The message is there, in many forms, not just christianity. Truth is
truth but some choose to close their eyes.
Furthermore, in response to my saying that god could point out to each
and every person the good path, the following was said:
He Does
Without reading my mind you cannot know what I have heard from some
god or what I have chosen to ignore. If you have any evidence that I
have heard this message or that I have chosen to ignore it, please
provide it. Also if you have any evidence that any of the millions of
atheists in the world have heard this message or chosen to ignore it,
please present it.
He could also make each person smart enough to understand where
his interests are - or perhaps ignorance is also part of god's plan.
Christians are smarter than non Christians?
Are Christians perfect? If not your question makes no sense. If true
then the problem still remains doesn't it?
It is not "our" intrests that Christians should be concerned with but
the intrests of others. And yes he made us smart enough to know where
others intrests are,
The above is both silly and arrogant.
Puting others intrests in front of our own is silly and arrogant? you
are a strange and confused person, compassionate was the word you were
looking for.
It is arrogant to think that you know what my interests are and that
god has particularly supplied you with the ability to do so.
snip
God allows evil to exists, we do the evil>
That is not what the Bible says. Furthermore it must be good if it is
required as you claim it is.
The bible says many things, many contridicting what was earlier said,
(sorry literalists) however, Jesus does not contricict himself, his
message is clear.
I see. The Bible is not to be relied upon, but the message of Jesus,
which is contained in the Bible, is clear.
Are our history books to be relied upon 100%? No they contain
errors. Do they contain truths, of course. Same with the bible. How
do we know what part to believe? Study, Study, Study, especially the
words of Jesus, he cleared things up nicely! also go to various
sources, read the orginal Hebrew texts. "Love your God with all your
heart, all your soul, and all of your MIND." Not love your God
blindly.
You still have the same problem. You study the words of Jesus in a
book that you admit is not totally reliable. What you think are the
words of Jesus may also be errors. Furthermore the claims of the
gospels concerning Jesus depend on the reliability of the Old
Testament, yet we know that much of the Old Testament is in error. As
far as your final advice is concerned, please understand that figuring
out what to believe or not believe in the Bible is your problem not
mine, but it is odd that a person would have to be an advanced scholar
before he could understand a message supposed to be intended for all
mankind; but, again, that is your problem not mine.
snip
Evil necessary? hmmmm? I guess in the same way that
liver and other foods that me want to blow are necessary so that I can
enjoy chocolate and beer. If everything tasted like chocolate and
beer would we still enjoy them?>
Then you confirm your claim that evil is necessary. It must be good
then. If nobody committed evil, we would not know what good was (your
argument). Therefore people who commit evil are doing everybody a
favor and are actually doing good (logical consequence of your
argument).
You are confusing necessary and good, and necessary with inevitable.
evil will happen, does that make it necessary? No, free choice is
necessary, evil is a byproduct. Does that make it Good? Absoulatly not
What you said was that without evil we would not know what good is.
You now change your story, but it doesn't help much. Does evil come
from good? You just said evil is a byproduct of free choice. If free
choice is good, then what necessarily comes from free choice must be
good.
Do you live in the real world? If something is good then everything
that comes from it has to be good? Of course not,
That is a standard Christian concept. If something is all good only
good can come from it. Nothing produced by man can be all good, but a
gift from god certainly should be. By the same token evil comes from
evil.
we weigh our
choices everyday, most have consequences both positive and negative
and somewhere in between. We try to make the correct choices that tip
the scales in the right direction.
That only applies to humans. Surely you do not think that the gifts
of god are mixed with evil.
Thomas P.
"That there are manes, a subterranean kingdom, a ferryman with a long pole, and black frogs in the whirlpools
of the Styx; that so many thousand men could cross the waves in a single boat, today even children refuse to believe."
Juvenal
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
21 Sep 2003 10:25:27 AM |
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On 21 Sep 2003 06:15:41 -0700, (Bob
Crowley) wrote:
David <dave@thellamaranch.com> wrote in message news:<3f65d1c5@news.sti.net>...
And yet this god allows evil to exist. In fact this god that
"cannot stand the presence of evil" created evil.
Evil exists, therefore if God exists, He must allow it to exist for a
reason, even if it pains Him to do so.
This judgement[sic], however, does not mean that God is not
loving or merciful.....
Hmmm, a loving god that created evil.....
A big problem, one that no-one has been able to solve, but it
obviously belongs to the area of intelligence self will. Animals may
be brutal, even cruel at times, but in most cases it is their drive
for food that is behind it.
The "Problem of evil" only exists if one assumes a good, omnipotent
god. It is quite clear that both cannot exist, and we know evil
exists. The solution is simple.
Thomas P.
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| User: "Mani Deli" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
21 Sep 2003 05:04:37 PM |
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On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:25:27 +0200, Thomas P.
<tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote:
The "Problem of evil" only exists if one assumes a good, omnipotent
god. It is quite clear that both cannot exist, and we know evil
exists. The solution is simple.
Namely, your logic is rediculous.
Tired of Modern Art? See-
http://www3.sympatico.ca/manideli/
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
21 Sep 2003 10:57:46 PM |
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On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:04:37 -0400, Mani Deli <mani@sympatico.ca>
posted in alt.atheism:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:25:27 +0200, Thomas P.
<tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote:
The "Problem of evil" only exists if one assumes a good, omnipotent
god. It is quite clear that both cannot exist, and we know evil
exists. The solution is simple.
Namely, your logic is rediculous.
An omnipotent god COULD eliminate evil. An omnibenevolent god WOULD
eliminate evil.
Evil exists.
Now, what was the logical error again?
--
"If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can
solve them."
-Isaac Asimov
&
There are three kinds of men:
The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence.
- (Will Rogers)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "David K. Lewis" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
22 Sep 2003 06:58:25 AM |
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Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:04:37 -0400, Mani Deli <mani@sympatico.ca>
posted in alt.atheism:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:25:27 +0200, Thomas P.
<tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote:
The "Problem of evil" only exists if one assumes a good, omnipotent
god. It is quite clear that both cannot exist, and we know evil
exists. The solution is simple.
Namely, your logic is rediculous.
An omnipotent god COULD eliminate evil. An omnibenevolent god WOULD
eliminate evil.
Evil exists.
Now, what was the logical error again?
Hmm, if I had to guess it would be with the statement:
"Evil exists"
It all depends on what you mean by evil. Perhaps you aren't
seeing the full scale/range to make your decision. I mean we
know suffering, disease, famine, and people doing bad things to
others exist, but what if the worst thing you can think of
is still in the upper 10% of the range and thus considered
good by someone who could see the entire scale?
I'm not saying it is, but what if you aren't able to see or
know of the worse 90% of things out there because someone
or something eliminated it from being possible?
That's the only error I can see, perhaps what you call Evil
isn't because you don't know what real evil is?
I can't imaging these things being good, but if there's more
to the scale, and I saw the whole range, perhaps I might...
As always any opinions I may have written above are mine and mine alone.
Dave.
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| User: "John Ritson" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
24 Sep 2003 01:57:08 PM |
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In message <bkmo51$7f7$1@srv38.cas.org>, David K. Lewis <dkl28@cas.org>
writes
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:04:37 -0400, Mani Deli <mani@sympatico.ca>
posted in alt.atheism:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:25:27 +0200, Thomas P.
<tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote:
The "Problem of evil" only exists if one assumes a good, omnipotent
god. It is quite clear that both cannot exist, and we know evil
exists. The solution is simple.
Namely, your logic is rediculous.
An omnipotent god COULD eliminate evil. An omnibenevolent god WOULD
eliminate evil.
Evil exists.
Now, what was the logical error again?
Hmm, if I had to guess it would be with the statement:
"Evil exists"
It all depends on what you mean by evil. Perhaps you aren't
seeing the full scale/range to make your decision. I mean we
know suffering, disease, famine, and people doing bad things to
others exist, but what if the worst thing you can think of
is still in the upper 10% of the range and thus considered
good by someone who could see the entire scale?
I'm not saying it is, but what if you aren't able to see or
know of the worse 90% of things out there because someone
or something eliminated it from being possible?
That's the only error I can see, perhaps what you call Evil
isn't because you don't know what real evil is?
I can't imaging these things being good, but if there's more
to the scale, and I saw the whole range, perhaps I might...
The incomprehensibility defence to the 'problem of evil' may save the
reputation of the deity, but the collateral damage is that it destroys
any concept of religious worship or religion-based ethics.
If one cannot know what one's deity 'really' requires in the greater
scheme of things then how do you know that it desires to be worshipped
and if so, how?
Why not slaughter the next people you meet? Perhaps killing them would
result in a net decrease in evil? After all, the Old Testament God
allegedly wiped out almost the entire population of the planet.
If faced with a choice between worshipping an 'evil' god and accepting a
'perfect' deity whose needs cannot be known, I suspect I know what most
believers will choose.
--
John Ritson
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
22 Sep 2003 08:56:11 PM |
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On 22 Sep 2003 11:58:25 GMT, (David K. Lewis) posted in
alt.atheism:
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:04:37 -0400, Mani Deli <mani@sympatico.ca>
posted in alt.atheism:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:25:27 +0200, Thomas P.
<tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote:
The "Problem of evil" only exists if one assumes a good, omnipotent
god. It is quite clear that both cannot exist, and we know evil
exists. The solution is simple.
Namely, your logic is rediculous.
An omnipotent god COULD eliminate evil. An omnibenevolent god WOULD
eliminate evil.
Evil exists.
Now, what was the logical error again?
Hmm, if I had to guess it would be with the statement:
"Evil exists"
It all depends on what you mean by evil.
Ask a Christian. The same ones who claim an omnipotent omnibenevolent
god exists also claim that evil exists.
I'm not addressing reality here - only Christian claims.
--
"I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be under-
stood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can
comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of
humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."
- 1954 or 1955; quoted in Dukas and Hoffman _Albert Einstein the Human Side_, p. 39
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
22 Sep 2003 01:56:21 AM |
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On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:04:37 -0400, Mani Deli <mani@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:25:27 +0200, Thomas P.
<tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote:
The "Problem of evil" only exists if one assumes a good, omnipotent
god. It is quite clear that both cannot exist, and we know evil
exists. The solution is simple.
Namely, your logic is rediculous.
After reading your brilliant refutation I am totally convinced.
Thomas P.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
21 Sep 2003 05:03:57 PM |
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On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:04:37 -0400, Mani Deli <mani@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:25:27 +0200, Thomas P.
<tonyofremovethisbexar@yahoo.dk,> wrote:
The "Problem of evil" only exists if one assumes a good, omnipotent
god. It is quite clear that both cannot exist, and we know evil
exists. The solution is simple.
Namely, your logic is rediculous.
Why? He demonstrated two attributes claimed by believers which are
mutually impossible. It be either one of them but not both.
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
21 Sep 2003 07:37:23 PM |
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Thomas P. wrote:
(Bob Crowley) wrote:
David <dave@thellamaranch.com> wrote
And yet this god allows evil to exist. In fact this
god that "cannot stand the presence of evil" created
evil.
Evil exists, therefore if God exists, He must allow it
to exist for a reason, even if it pains Him to do so.
This judgement[sic], however, does not mean that
God is not loving or merciful.....
Hmmm, a loving god that created evil.....
A big problem, one that no-one has been able to solve,
but it obviously belongs to the area of intelligence
self will. Animals may be brutal, even cruel at times,
but in most cases it is their drive for food that is
behind it.
The "Problem of evil" only exists if one assumes a good,
omnipotent god. It is quite clear that both cannot
exist, and we know evil exists. The solution is simple.
Yes, the solution is quite simple; the god the christians
prattle on about is either not all loving or not all
powerful. It's their god, so I'll let them pick which
attribute they wish to change.
--
David V.
Yosemite Llama Ranch
dave@TheLlamaRanch.com
http://www.TheLlamaRanch.com
UDP for WebTV
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| User: "Mark Fox" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
24 Sep 2003 11:29:00 PM |
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David <dave@thellamaranch.com> wrote
The "Problem of evil" only exists if one assumes a good,
omnipotent god. It is quite clear that both cannot
exist, and we know evil exists. The solution is simple.
Yes, the solution is quite simple; the god the christians
prattle on about is either not all loving or not all
powerful. It's their god, so I'll let them pick which
attribute they wish to change.
I wonder if its the same logic that little children would employ when
trying to rationalize why they should be allowed by their parents to
play ball in a street filled with heavy traffic.
If you don't let me play ball where I want you must be "not all
loving"
and if choose not to take away the traffic danger you must be "not all
powerful"
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
25 Sep 2003 09:46:43 AM |
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Mark Fox wrote:
David <dave@thellamaranch.com> wrote
The "Problem of evil" only exists if one assumes a
good, omnipotent god. It is quite clear that both
cannot exist, and we know evil exists. The solution
is simple.
Yes, the solution is quite simple; the god the
christians prattle on about is either not all loving or
not all powerful. It's their god, so I'll let them pick
which attribute they wish to change.
I wonder if its the same logic that little children would
employ when trying to rationalize why they should be
allowed by their parents to play ball in a street filled
with heavy traffic.
No.
--
David V.
Yosemite Llama Ranch
dave@TheLlamaRanch.com
http://www.TheLlamaRanch.com
UDP for WebTV
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| User: "Thomas P." |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
22 Sep 2003 01:56:21 AM |
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On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:37:23 -0700, David <dave@thellamaranch.com>
wrote:
Thomas P. wrote:
(Bob Crowley) wrote:
David <dave@thellamaranch.com> wrote
And yet this god allows evil to exist. In fact this
god that "cannot stand the presence of evil" created
evil.
Evil exists, therefore if God exists, He must allow it
to exist for a reason, even if it pains Him to do so.
This judgement[sic], however, does not mean that
God is not loving or merciful.....
Hmmm, a loving god that created evil.....
A big problem, one that no-one has been able to solve,
but it obviously belongs to the area of intelligence
self will. Animals may be brutal, even cruel at times,
but in most cases it is their drive for food that is
behind it.
The "Problem of evil" only exists if one assumes a good,
omnipotent god. It is quite clear that both cannot
exist, and we know evil exists. The solution is simple.
Yes, the solution is quite simple; the god the christians
prattle on about is either not all loving or not all
powerful. It's their god, so I'll let them pick which
attribute they wish to change.
Non-existent is the most reasonable solution.
Thomas P.
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| User: "David" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
22 Sep 2003 09:33:12 AM |
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Thomas P. wrote:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:37:23 -0700, David <dave@thellamaranch.com>
wrote:
Thomas P. wrote:
(Bob Crowley) wrote:
David <dave@thellamaranch.com> wrote
And yet this god allows evil to exist. In fact this
god that "cannot stand the presence of evil" created
evil.
Evil exists, therefore if God exists, He must allow it
to exist for a reason, even if it pains Him to do so.
This judgement[sic], however, does not mean that
God is not loving or merciful.....
Hmmm, a loving god that created evil.....
A big problem, one that no-one has been able to solve,
but it obviously belongs to the area of intelligence
self will. Animals may be brutal, even cruel at times,
but in most cases it is their drive for food that is
behind it.
The "Problem of evil" only exists if one assumes a good,
omnipotent god. It is quite clear that both cannot
exist, and we know evil exists. The solution is simple.
Yes, the solution is quite simple; the god the christians
prattle on about is either not all loving or not all
powerful. It's their god, so I'll let them pick which
attribute they wish to change.
Non-existent is the most reasonable solution.
Have you ever seen a christian come up with anything
reasonable? :-)
--
David V.
Yosemite Llama Ranch
dave@TheLlamaRanch.com
http://www.TheLlamaRanch.com
UDP for WebTV
.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature". |
22 Sep 2003 10:30:14 AM |
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In article <3f6f0824@news.sti.net>, David says...
Thomas P. wrote:
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:37:23 -0700, David <dave@thellamaranch.com>
wrote:
Thomas P. wrote:
(Bob Crowley) wrote:
David <dave@thellamaranch.com> wrote
And yet this god allows evil to exist. In fact this
god that "cannot stand the presence of evil" created
evil.
Evil exists, therefore if God exists, He must allow it
to exist for a reason, even if it pains Him to do so.
This judgement[sic], however, does not mean that
God is not loving or merciful.....
Hmmm, a loving god that created evil.....
A big problem, one that no-one has been able to solve,
but it obviously belongs to the area of intelligence
self will. Animals may be brutal, even cruel at times,
but in most cases it is their drive for food that is
behind it.
The "Problem of evil" only exists if one assumes a good,
omnipotent god. It is quite clear that both cannot
exist, and we know evil exists. The solution is simple.
Yes, the solution is quite simple; the god the christians
prattle on about is either not all loving or not all
powerful. It's their god, so I'll let them pick which
attribute they wish to change.
Non-existent is the most reasonable solution.
Have you ever seen a christian come up with anything
reasonable? :-)
Goodness, no. In the middle of a religious email dispute with one of my SILs,
she barked "M | | | | | |
