Evidences of God - Preface

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Jeremy"
Date:	20 Aug 2003 08:27:43 PM
Object:	Evidences of God - Preface

Evidences of God - Preface
I have recently been involved in discussions that have been crossposted
in several newsgroups. Because, in all of these newsgroups, people have
asked me for my evidence that God exists, I am cross posting this thread
to all of these newsgroups, so that everyone who has been discussing on
the other threads will see and be able to converse in this thread.
Some of the items that I will be posting will be items that I have
posted before. I know this, but everyone may not have read them that
will be in this discussion, so I am reposting it.
Because of the amount of information that I plan on posting for this
discussion, I would like to make a suggestion. If you plan on posting a
reply to a single point made in the discussion, please append a suffix
(or change an existing one) to the subject line of the post. It will
make it easier to follow the threads.
Also please note that, unless I state otherwise, my postings will be
based on my beliefs. I know that there will be other people who have
differing beliefs and opinions, and that is fine.
In summary, I want to be able to have an honest, open minded discussion
on the subject. By open minded I simply mean that we look at each post,
regardless of the author, at face value. We should at least try to
understand what the author is saying before replying. I am not saying
that anyone needs to believe or accept anything that is posted, I would
just ask that we respect each other's views as being valid in their eyes.
Now I know asking Usenet posters to behave can be like asking a dog to
quit chasing cats, but at least I made the attempt.
--- Jeremy
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	21 Sep 2003 03:15:40 PM

Bob Crowley wrote:

David <dave@thellamaranch.com> wrote in message news:<3f65d1c5@news.sti.net>...

And yet this god allows evil to exist. In fact this god that
"cannot stand the presence of evil" created evil.

Evil exists, therefore if God exists, He must allow it to exist for a
reason, even if it pains Him to do so.

===>IF it really "pained him", he would ELIMINATE IT,
as he did all life in the flood when he was sorry he made man.
In fact he proudly declares:
"I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these [things]."
(Isaiah 45:7)
.

User: "tsawlrite"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	22 Sep 2003 08:19:24 AM

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message
news:3F6E06EC.9152E19C@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net...

Bob Crowley wrote:

David <dave@thellamaranch.com> wrote in message

news:<3f65d1c5@news.sti.net>...

And yet this god allows evil to exist. In fact this god that
"cannot stand the presence of evil" created evil.

Evil exists, therefore if God exists, He must allow it to exist for a
reason, even if it pains Him to do so.

||||||||||||| Thanks for quoting a scripture. I didn't think people read
the bible anymore. If God eliminated evil, He would also have to take away
our free will. We've had free will since the beginning. Gen 2:16 "And the
LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest
freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt
not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely
die." Evil is the result of humans having free will, God gave us free will,
thus God created evil. If you don't mind having your free will taken away,
then sure, eliminate evil. Evil is the result of people's poor judgements,
reasoning, decisions, etc.||||||||||tsawlrite
.

User: "Weatherwax"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	24 Sep 2003 05:37:26 PM

"tsawlrite" <tsawlrite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
< CLIP >

If God eliminated evil, He would also have to take away
our free will.

So God can't eliminate evil without taking away free will.
It is interesting to see a Christian admit that there is
something the omnipotent deity cannot do.
--
Wax
.

User: "Doug Semler"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	25 Sep 2003 01:56:56 AM

At some point in the past, Weatherwax <weatherwax@worldnet.net>
slavered, and posted this:

"tsawlrite" <tsawlrite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
< CLIP >

If God eliminated evil, He would also have to take away
our free will.

So God can't eliminate evil without taking away free will.

It is interesting to see a Christian admit that there is
something the omnipotent deity cannot do.

One minor problem: you are equating ability with desire, which you really
shouldn't do. However, it is MORE interesting to note that Christians seem
to know the desires of the supreme being.
Question for discussion: does the fact that the deity has desires negate the
deity's given quality of omniscience?
--
Doug Semler
http://home.wideopenwest.com/~doug_semler
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
I hate spam, standard email address munging applied.
42
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User: "Therion Ware"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	25 Sep 2003 03:41:48 AM

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:56:56 -0400 in alt.atheism, Doug Semler ("Doug
Semler" <doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com>) said, directing the
reply to alt.atheism

At some point in the past, Weatherwax <weatherwax@worldnet.net>
slavered, and posted this:

"tsawlrite" <tsawlrite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
< CLIP >

If God eliminated evil, He would also have to take away
our free will.

So God can't eliminate evil without taking away free will.

It is interesting to see a Christian admit that there is
something the omnipotent deity cannot do.

I don't know about omniscience alone (this just implies you know what
you want, not that you can necessarily get it!), but it's certainly
difficult to see how an omniscient and omnipotent entity can have any
unfulfilled desires, at least not without limiting itself in some way;
kind of a supernatural version of "I could eat that chocolate if I
wanted to, but I shall restrain myself". Which some to think of it is
probably about as close to a miracle as it gets!
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 **
.

User: "David K. Lewis"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	25 Sep 2003 08:46:01 AM

"Doug Semler" <doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> writes:

At some point in the past, Weatherwax <weatherwax@worldnet.net>
slavered, and posted this:

"tsawlrite" <tsawlrite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
< CLIP >

If God eliminated evil, He would also have to take away
our free will.

So God can't eliminate evil without taking away free will.

It is interesting to see a Christian admit that there is
something the omnipotent deity cannot do.

One minor problem: you are equating ability with desire, which you really
shouldn't do.

Actually he's not, did you even read what he responded to?
The poster claimed that god would be unable to create a
universe without evil and still maintain free will.
So he would be unable to create the condition A and !B,
note, unable and not unwilling....
The poster didn't say unwilling because then they'd have
to explain or rationalize to themselves *why* it was
created with evil (as that would go against their sense
of a good/benevolent god, they choose to believe unable).
As always any opinions I may have created above are mine and mine alone.
Dave.
.

User: "Doug Semler"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	25 Sep 2003 02:55:20 PM

At some point in the past, David K. Lewis <dkl28@cas.org> slavered, and
posted this:

"Doug Semler" <doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> writes:

At some point in the past, Weatherwax <weatherwax@worldnet.net>
slavered, and posted this:

"tsawlrite" <tsawlrite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
< CLIP >

If God eliminated evil, He would also have to take away
our free will.

So God can't eliminate evil without taking away free will.

It is interesting to see a Christian admit that there is
something the omnipotent deity cannot do.

One minor problem: you are equating ability with desire, which you
really shouldn't do.

Actually he's not, did you even read what he responded to?

No, I didn't. So what? The quote attribution given did not state that. If
the attributions were correct, I wouldn't have to go back and read the
entire post. Especially since I am coming from a newsgroup which posts 1500
messages per day. You cannot expect me to remember everything everyone has
posted, nor read every single line of every post to which people are
responding. That is the whole point of quoting!

The poster claimed that god would be unable to create a
universe without evil and still maintain free will.
So he would be unable to create the condition A and !B,
note, unable and not unwilling....

To begin with, you should point out that the original poster's premise is
incorrect, because one can show that the removal of evil does not remove
free will; it only introduces a limitation on the choice set given to the
beings with free will. Since we (assuming we are beings with free will) are
already operating under a limited choice set, the removal of one choice set
does not completely negate the property of free will, it only introduces
further limitations.

The poster didn't say unwilling because then they'd have
to explain or rationalize to themselves *why* it was
created with evil (as that would go against their sense
of a good/benevolent god, they choose to believe unable).

Yes. Which is why Rational Christian is an oxymoron.
--
Doug Semler
http://home.wideopenwest.com/~doug_semler
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
I hate spam, standard email address munging applied.
42
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User: "David K. Lewis"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	26 Sep 2003 07:29:33 AM

"Doug Semler" <doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> writes:

At some point in the past, David K. Lewis <dkl28@cas.org> slavered, and
posted this:

"Doug Semler" <doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> writes:

At some point in the past, Weatherwax <weatherwax@worldnet.net>
slavered, and posted this:

"tsawlrite" <tsawlrite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
< CLIP >

If God eliminated evil, He would also have to take away
our free will.

So God can't eliminate evil without taking away free will.

It is interesting to see a Christian admit that there is
something the omnipotent deity cannot do.

One minor problem: you are equating ability with desire, which you
really shouldn't do.

Actually he's not, did you even read what he responded to?

No, I didn't. So what? The quote attribution given did not state that.

Yes it did.

If the attributions were correct, I wouldn't have to go back
and read the entire post

No you wouldn't, its been there the whole time and you even
included it in your response. Its even still there above
I'll include it again below for you:
"If God eliminated evil, He would also have to take
away our free will."
You'll see its still above too, but that statment says
that god can't do A and !B. You then equated this with
desire and that had nothing to do with it.

Especially since I am coming from a newsgroup which posts 1500
messages per day. You cannot expect me to remember everything
everyone has posted, nor read every single line of every post
to which people are responding. That is the whole point of quoting!

No, but I expect you to read the line you're responding too,
you obvioulsy didn't. After the above was posted someone
said "so there's something your god can't do" and you said
he made the mistake of equating desire with ability, but he
didn't make the mistake you did. The quote was about ability
and not desire...

To begin with, you should point out that the original poster's
premise is incorrect,

I care nothing about their points, I only cared that you
misread their point and jumped in and were completly wrong
to say he was wrong. Make sense now?
As always any opinions I may have written above are mine and mine alone.
Dave.
.

User: "Weatherwax"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	25 Sep 2003 04:10:21 AM

"Doug Semler" wrote

Weatherwax <weatherwax@worldnet.net>

"tsawlrite" <tsawlrite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
< CLIP >

If God eliminated evil, He would also have to take away
our free will.

So God can't eliminate evil without taking away free will.

It is interesting to see a Christian admit that there is
something the omnipotent deity cannot do.

One minor problem: you are equating ability with desire,
which you really shouldn't do. However, it is MORE
interesting to note that Christians seem to know the desires
of the supreme being.

Excuse me, but tsawlrite said that God can't eliminate evil. Are
you now saying that God can eliminate evil, but he has no desire
to?

Question for discussion: does the fact that the deity has
desires negate the deity's given quality of omniscience?

The Christian argument is that we are too small to understand
God's actions. Actually, if we assume that God is malevolent,
his actions become easy to explain.
--
Wax
.

User: "Doug Semler"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	25 Sep 2003 02:46:30 PM

At some point in the past, Weatherwax <weatherwax@worldnet.net>
slavered, and posted this:

"Doug Semler" wrote

Weatherwax <weatherwax@worldnet.net>

"tsawlrite" <tsawlrite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
< CLIP >

If God eliminated evil, He would also have to take away
our free will.

So God can't eliminate evil without taking away free will.

It is interesting to see a Christian admit that there is
something the omnipotent deity cannot do.

One minor problem: you are equating ability with desire,
which you really shouldn't do. However, it is MORE
interesting to note that Christians seem to know the desires
of the supreme being.

Excuse me, but tsawlrite said that God can't eliminate evil. Are
you now saying that God can eliminate evil, but he has no desire
to?

I did not read the original post so I do not know what was previously
written. However, the statement to which you responded said, "If God
eliminated evil, He would also have to take away our free will." (Which does
not even address the fact that an omniscient being negates free will to
begin with, but that's beside this point.) My point is that the way you
read it is that the deity does not have the ability to remove evil. I read
it differently, in that the deity has the ability remove evil, however that
removal has an undesired side effect *to him*. Do you see the difference?
By the way, I am not thiest, I just wanted to point out that you fall into a
common trap when it comes to this point. Which is why I raised the question
on a being's omnipotence and its desires.
--
Doug Semler
http://home.wideopenwest.com/~doug_semler
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
I hate spam, standard email address munging applied.
42
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User: "Weatherwax"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	25 Sep 2003 05:50:05 PM

"Doug Semler" <doug_semler@REMOVEMEwideopenwest.com> wrote in
message news:h5Cdnc6yBve42-6iU-KYgg@wideopenwest.com...

At some point in the past, Weatherwax <weatherwax@worldnet.net>
slavered, and posted this:

"Doug Semler" wrote

Weatherwax <weatherwax@worldnet.net>

"tsawlrite" <tsawlrite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
< CLIP >

If God eliminated evil, He would also have to take away
our free will.

So God can't eliminate evil without taking away free will.

It is interesting to see a Christian admit that there is
something the omnipotent deity cannot do.

One minor problem: you are equating ability with desire,
which you really shouldn't do. However, it is MORE
interesting to note that Christians seem to know the desires
of the supreme being.

Excuse me, but tsawlrite said that God can't eliminate evil.

Are

you now saying that God can eliminate evil, but he has no

desire

to?

you

fall into a common trap when it comes to this point. Which is
why I raised the question on a being's omnipotence and its
desires.

I do not believe that I read tsawlrite statement incorrectly. It
is the standard Christian argument. He said, "If God eliminated
evil, He would also have to take away our free will." I did not
interpret that to mean God could not take away evil, but that he
had only an either/or chioce. That is he could not both
eliminate evil and leave free will. He must either permit evil,
or remove free will. This implies a limitation in what is
supposed to be an omnipotent being.
The problem comes down to whether omnipotence implies the ability
to do the logically impossible. Theologians, being aware of the
implication concerning evil, claim only that God can do what is
not logically impossible. However, laymen are reluctant to
admit that there is anything God cannot do, including the
logically impossible.
--
Wax
.

User: "Doug Semler"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	22 Sep 2003 11:14:18 AM

At some point in the past, tsawlrite <tsawlrite@yahoo.com> slavered,
and posted this:

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message
news:3F6E06EC.9152E19C@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net...

Bob Crowley wrote:

David <dave@thellamaranch.com> wrote in message
news:<3f65d1c5@news.sti.net>...

And yet this god allows evil to exist. In fact this god that
"cannot stand the presence of evil" created evil.

Evil exists, therefore if God exists, He must allow it to exist for
a reason, even if it pains Him to do so.

Thanks for quoting a scripture. I didn't think people
read

the bible anymore. If God eliminated evil, He would also have to
take away our free will. We've had free will since the beginning.
Gen 2:16 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree
of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the
knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day
that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Evil is the result
of humans having free will, God gave us free will, thus God created
evil. If you don't mind having your free will taken away, then sure,
eliminate evil. Evil is the result of people's poor judgements,
reasoning, decisions, etc.||||||||||tsawlrite

I disagree. Why can't you have free will if evil is precluded from human
nature? All the removal of evil from human nature implies is that the
choice set for our free will is limited. It doesn't mean that free will
itself would no longer exist. Considering the fact that humans already have
limited free will, and not total free will, it is not too difficult to see
the conclusion that further limitations are possible, especially to an
all-powerful god. The removal of the concept of evil in the choice set
would actually be a better indication of an all-loving supreme being than
the fact that evil choices do exist.
--
Doug Semler
http://home.wideopenwest.com/~doug_semler
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
I hate spam, standard email address munging applied.
42
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User: "Thomas P."
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	22 Sep 2003 11:11:34 AM

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:19:24 -0400, "tsawlrite" <tsawlrite@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message
news:3F6E06EC.9152E19C@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net...

Bob Crowley wrote:

snip

||||||||||||| Thanks for quoting a scripture. I didn't think people read
the bible anymore. If God eliminated evil, He would also have to take away
our free will.

That is not true. He could easily make only those people who he knew
would freely choose to do good. Besides free will only brings up
another contradiction, the existence of an omnipotent god and beings
with free will.
We've had free will since the beginning. Gen 2:16 "And the

LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest
freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt
not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely
die." Evil is the result of humans having free will, God gave us free will,
thus God created evil. If you don't mind having your free will taken away,
then sure, eliminate evil. Evil is the result of people's poor judgements,
reasoning, decisions, etc.||||||||||tsawlrite

Then god should have made smarter people who would freely make the
right decisions. Of course the omnipotence/free will contradiction
remains.
Thomas P.
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	22 Sep 2003 04:29:14 PM

tsawlrite wrote:

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message
news:3F6E06EC.9152E19C@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net...

Bob Crowley wrote:

David <dave@thellamaranch.com> wrote in message

news:<3f65d1c5@news.sti.net>...

And yet this god allows evil to exist. In fact this god that
"cannot stand the presence of evil" created evil.

Evil exists, therefore if God exists, He must allow it to exist for a
reason, even if it pains Him to do so.

||||||||||||| Thanks for quoting a scripture. I didn't think people read
the bible anymore. If God eliminated evil, He would also have to take away
our free will.

===>That is STUPID!
Why would he be "taking away" ANYTHING by not creating evil?

We've had free will since the beginning. Gen 2:16 "And the
LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest
freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt
not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely
die."

===>How in the world can you squeeze any idea of a "free will" out of that?
Coming from an omniscient being that is pure DECEPTION.
He already knew quite well that the man WOULD eat of that tree
even before he created the poor fellow.
Your belief in your stories lets you down every time.

Evil is the result of humans having free will,

===>What on earth does THAT mean?

God gave us free will,
thus God created evil.

===>Free will would imply being LEFT ALONE, regardless
of the choice made.
But the man had no choice of doing something other than what
"GOD" already KNEW long before he created the poor guy!
And as soon as he made his choice, YHWH screamed WRONG!
and evicted him out of his garden

If you don't mind having your free will taken away,
then sure, eliminate evil. Evil is the result of people's poor judgements,
reasoning, decisions, etc.

===>What do you call "evil"???
Obviously not poverty and natural disasters, diseases and death. -- L.
.

User: "tsawlrite"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	23 Sep 2003 12:58:13 PM

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message
news:3F6F69AA.B592DAC@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net...

tsawlrite wrote:

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message
news:3F6E06EC.9152E19C@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net...

Bob Crowley wrote:

David <dave@thellamaranch.com> wrote in message

news:<3f65d1c5@news.sti.net>...

And yet this god allows evil to exist. In fact this god that
"cannot stand the presence of evil" created evil.

Evil exists, therefore if God exists, He must allow it to exist for

reason, even if it pains Him to do so.

||||||||||||| Thanks for quoting a scripture. I didn't think people

read

the bible anymore. If God eliminated evil, He would also have to take

away

our free will.

===>That is STUPID!
Why would he be "taking away" ANYTHING by not creating evil?

We've had free will since the beginning. Gen 2:16 "And the
LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou

mayest

freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou

shalt

not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely
die."

===>How in the world can you squeeze any idea of a "free will" out of

that?

Coming from an omniscient being that is pure DECEPTION.
He already knew quite well that the man WOULD eat of that tree
even before he created the poor fellow.

Your belief in your stories lets you down every time.

Evil is the result of humans having free will,

===>What on earth does THAT mean?

God gave us free will,
thus God created evil.

If you don't mind having your free will taken away,
then sure, eliminate evil. Evil is the result of people's poor

judgements,

reasoning, decisions, etc.

===>What do you call "evil"???
Obviously not poverty and natural disasters, diseases and death. -- L.

||||||||||||||You are right, natural disasters and diseases are not evil.
What is your definition of evil? Poverty can be evil, it depends on if
someone made someone else poor intentionally. Death is not evil, unless you
purposely kill someone. You are right, God does know everything. Adam had
choices, he could eat from the tree in the middle of the garden, he could
eat from the other trees, or he could eat nothing at all. By removing the
option to sin, He would have effectively reduced Adam's choices to only one.
Choosing to eat from the center tree would be sinful, and choosing to starve
to death would be sinful, thus Adam could only do one thing. If you could
not choose to sin, you wouldn't have choices. Free will is the source of
evil by definition. I don't have a current dictionary on me, but look the
word up yourself. A house can't be evil because it has no free will. The
same is with wind, ground, death, etc. If there is an earthquake, the earth
is not "out to get" you. Your idea of evil is
distorted.|||||||||||||tsawlrite
.

User: "Thomas P."
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	23 Sep 2003 04:58:10 PM

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:58:13 -0400, "tsawlrite" <tsawlrite@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message
news:3F6F69AA.B592DAC@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net...

snip

It was not necessary to remove the option to sin. He could have just
made Adam smarter so that he would have freely made the right choice.
There are at least two problems with the story. First of all Adam was
completely innocent and understood nothing about right or wrong. He
could no more sin than a baby. The other problem is that god set him
up by delibrately putting him into a situation he knew would result in
Adam breaking his rule. All of that, of course, ignores the total
impossibility of an omnipotent god and free will existing at the same
time.
Thomas P.
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	23 Sep 2003 08:26:05 PM

"Thomas P." wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:58:13 -0400, "tsawlrite" <tsawlrite@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message
news:3F6F69AA.B592DAC@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net...

snip

===>Well, it says that after a while he was
"SORRY HE MADE MAN"!
.

User: "Thomas P."
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	24 Sep 2003 03:11:06 AM

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:26:05 -0600, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote:

"Thomas P." wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:58:13 -0400, "tsawlrite" <tsawlrite@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message
news:3F6F69AA.B592DAC@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net...

snip

===>Well, it says that after a while he was
"SORRY HE MADE MAN"!

I am willing to forgive him if he pays reasonable compensation to all
of us. Since he has infinite assets, each of us should be able to
decide what reasonable compensation would be.
Thomas P.
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	25 Sep 2003 03:38:38 PM

"Thomas P." wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:26:05 -0600, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote:

"Thomas P." wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:58:13 -0400, "tsawlrite" <tsawlrite@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message
news:3F6F69AA.B592DAC@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net...

snip

===>Well, it says that after a while he was
"SORRY HE MADE MAN"!

I am willing to forgive him if he pays reasonable compensation to all
of us. Since he has infinite assets, each of us should be able to
decide what reasonable compensation would be.

Thomas P.

===>Mormon's have an idea:
How'bout a planet of our own
to do with it as we please?
.

User: "Thomas P."
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	26 Sep 2003 01:50:14 AM

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:38:38 GMT, Libertarius
<The_Truth_The_Whole_Truth@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote:

"Thomas P." wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:26:05 -0600, Libertarius
<Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote:

"Thomas P." wrote:

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:58:13 -0400, "tsawlrite" <tsawlrite@yahoo.com>
wrote:

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message
news:3F6F69AA.B592DAC@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net...

snip

===>Well, it says that after a while he was
"SORRY HE MADE MAN"!

I am willing to forgive him if he pays reasonable compensation to all
of us. Since he has infinite assets, each of us should be able to
decide what reasonable compensation would be.

Thomas P.

===>Mormon's have an idea:
How'bout a planet of our own
to do with it as we please?

Maybe as a vacation home - certainly not the entire settlement though.
Thomas P.
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	23 Sep 2003 03:06:30 PM

tsawlrite wrote:

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message
news:3F6F69AA.B592DAC@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net...

tsawlrite wrote:

"Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message
news:3F6E06EC.9152E19C@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net...

Bob Crowley wrote:

David <dave@thellamaranch.com> wrote in message

news:<3f65d1c5@news.sti.net>...

And yet this god allows evil to exist. In fact this god that
"cannot stand the presence of evil" created evil.

Evil exists, therefore if God exists, He must allow it to exist for

reason, even if it pains Him to do so.

||||||||||||| Thanks for quoting a scripture. I didn't think people

read

the bible anymore. If God eliminated evil, He would also have to take

away

our free will.

===>That is STUPID!
Why would he be "taking away" ANYTHING by not creating evil?

We've had free will since the beginning. Gen 2:16 "And the
LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou

mayest

freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou

shalt

not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely
die."

===>How in the world can you squeeze any idea of a "free will" out of

that?

Evil is the result of humans having free will,

===>What on earth does THAT mean?

God gave us free will,
thus God created evil.

If you don't mind having your free will taken away,
then sure, eliminate evil. Evil is the result of people's poor

judgements,

reasoning, decisions, etc.

===>What do you call "evil"???
Obviously not poverty and natural disasters, diseases and death. -- L.

===>Only ONE?
How can you say that after writing:
"Adam had
choices, he could eat from the tree in the middle of the garden, he could
eat from the other trees, or he could eat nothing at all."
Taking ONE TREE out of the "middle of the garden" would NOT
have "reduced his choices to "only one".

Choosing to eat from the center tree would be sinful, and choosing to starve
to death would be sinful,

===>WHY?
Why would eating from the center tree be a "sin"???
Did YHWH prefer them to remain ignorant, like YOU appear to
wish to be?
And even more so, why would a choice of NOT eating from ANY
tree be a "sin"???

thus Adam could only do one thing.

===>NONSENSE.
False conclusion from false premises.

If you could
not choose to sin, you wouldn't have choices.

===>Adam had NO CHOICE but to do what "GOD"
KNEW IN ADVANCE he would do.
He was created with the deliberate KNOWLEDGE that
"GOD" was making a creature who would, as you call it, "sin".

Free will is the source of
evil by definition.

===>More nonsense.
But if THAT is your definition, so be it.

I don't have a current dictionary on me,

===>Silly excuse!
You ARE on the Internet, are you not?
You could EASILY look up an online dictionary.
As you said, you appear to PREFER to be ignorant.

but look the
word up yourself.

===>Why should I?
I know what "free will" is, as well as what "evil" means.
It is YOU who prefer to use the Humpty Dumpty
Princiople.

A house can't be evil because it has no free will. The
same is with wind, ground, death, etc.

===>All this is based on your Humpty Dumpty
"definition", which I consider false.

If there is an earthquake, the earth
is not "out to get" you.

===>So, you think earthquakes and hundreds of
people dying are good?

Your idea of evil is
distorted.|||||||||||||tsawlrite

===>For sure it is not YOUR silly idea.
Perhaps it is not too late for you to learn something, so
here is the DICTIONARY definition of "EVIL":
1 a : the fact of suffering, misfortune, and wrongdoing
b : a cosmic evil force
2 : something that brings sorrow, distress, or calamity
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary
Libertarius
============
.

User: "David"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	23 Sep 2003 01:48:27 PM

tsawlrite wrote:

You are right, natural disasters and diseases are not evil.
What is your definition of evil?

Hamlet Lecture III, Part III
.... There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes
it so....
--
David V.
Yosemite Llama Ranch
dave@TheLlamaRanch.com
http://www.TheLlamaRanch.com
UDP for WebTV
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	21 Sep 2003 10:55:56 PM

On 21 Sep 2003 06:15:41 -0700,

(Bob
Crowley) posted in alt.atheism:

David <dave@thellamaranch.com> wrote in message news:<3f65d1c5@news.sti.net>...

And yet this god allows evil to exist. In fact this god that
"cannot stand the presence of evil" created evil.

Evil exists, therefore if God exists, He must allow it to exist for a
reason, even if it pains Him to do so.

If he "must" do something (is forced to) then he's not omnipotent, so
you're not talking about the Christian god.

This judgement[sic], however, does not mean that God is not
loving or merciful.....

Hmmm, a loving god that created evil.....

A big problem, one that no-one has been able to solve, but it
obviously belongs to the area of intelligence self will.

If your god had self-will he could have created a universe without
evil. So, yes, your god sounds like a creature without self-will.

In the OT, God continually demonstrates His merciful
nature towards His people...

This god had no mercy for anyone other than "his" people.

He gave the Assyrians a second chance at Johah's preaching, and they
were a cruel and brutal people. And as for His own people He was
oftne very hard on them.

Where is the mercy in killing almost every living thing on this
planet?

Where did you dig up this junk about God not being
merciful in the OT?

All you have to do is read the OT>

We tend to forget that by the time the prophets were doing their bit,
Israel had already had hundreds of years of grace to get its act
together.

Read the OT. Noah's flood. Were all the unborn babies your god
killed deserving of death? All the animals? All the plants?

Indeed, I used to be an atheist like many of you...

Oh, too bad. You just lost any credibility you may have had
with that lie. That they used to be an Atheist is the most
common lie told by christians. Every last one of them will
make that claim if you get them talking long enough.

Have you done a survey to prove this assertion.

Yes. Not one Christian posting here who claimed to have been an
atheist understood atheism.

If, God
forbid, you ever become a Christian, you could make the claim quite
truthfully.

Why would anyone who had escaped slavery want to become a slave again?

Also, many of the stories of destruction and God's
wrath...

I thought it was a merciful, loving, god? How could it have
such wrath?

Paul wrote of God's great patience. In short people provoke HIm
greatly

An infinitely knowing god can't be "provoked". He already knows
what's going to be done.

but He is patient, hoping they'll change.

An omniscient god "hoping"? Are you TRYING to sound ridiculous?

Ever heard the saying, "Beware the wrath of the patient man"?

An omniscient god can't be "patient". Especially if he's atemporal,
which the Christian god is.

This whole issue is a waste of your time, thought, and
life. Clearly God is merciful and loving throughout the
Bible. End of discussion, PERIOD.

That's right. Your fantasy god is a waste of time.

If you feel so strongly about it, why are you wasting time on it
yourself?

You're posting your crap to alt.atheism.
--
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he
unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."
-- Bertrand Russell.
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.

User: "JoeCool"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	25 Sep 2003 02:13:52 PM

Evil is a human failing. Yes God created us so you can argue God
created evil.
Would you refuse to have a child because he will grow up with the
ability to make evil choices?
If you could would you remove the ability of your child to choose
between good and evil?
I do my best to teach my child to make the right decisions, but I
still want him to be able to choose. Just as the God I worship has
given us instruction in right and wrong and wants us to choose. The
good is in the choice of one way over another.
Many of the postings assume that all Christians are bible literalist,
which many of us are not. The bible is an attempt of man to teach
God's word, and is as imperfect as man himself. Is it useless? To me
no, it is full of teachings that benifit all of mankind. Worship your
God with all of your heart, your soul, and YOUR MIND.
Peace,
Joe
.

User: "David K. Lewis"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature".	26 Sep 2003 07:22:59 AM

(JoeCool) writes:

Evil is a human failing.

Not according to the Bible, Evil was created and around long
before humans. One could argue that a human succoming to
evil is a sin, but biblical Evil is separate from humanity.

Yes God created us so you can argue God created evil.

Biblically you could argue that god created evil since
the bible says he did in Isaiah 45:7 where it says
he creates light, darkness, and evil.
According to the bible, god even uses Evil to further his
means as in Judges 9:23 (and many other places too).

Would you refuse to have a child because he will grow
up with the ability to make evil choices?

No, but would you remove evil choices from the world if
you could, leaving only what we would call good ones?

If you could would you remove the ability of your child to choose
between good and evil?

You could never do that as good/evil aren't absolutes and
you can never get rid of the scale without making it a
constant. However, we do see some pretty nasty things on
the evil side, what if the scale was that jay walking was
the most evil thing and worked up from there to the good
side of things :).

I do my best to teach my child to make the right decisions,
but I still want him to be able to choose.

I doubt that, are you telling me that if your child was
standing on a high ledge going to end it all you'd only
talk to them and you wouldn't ever grab them, even if
the opportunity presented itself?
I think any parent would grab them if they could, for you
to say you wouldn't doesn't sound logical or makes you
sound like a bad parent. However, if you were to grab
them you'd be removing their choice...
As always any opinions I may have written above are mine and mine alone.
Dave.
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature" -- THE CHAIR	25 Sep 2003 04:50:19 PM

JoeCool wrote:

Evil is a human failing. Yes God created us so you can argue God
created evil.
Would you refuse to have a child because he will grow up with the
ability to make evil choices?

===>Would you PRODUCE a child if you knew he would be a serial killer
and end up in the electric chair? -- L.
.

User: "oldriver"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature" -- THE CHAIR	16 Oct 2003 10:30:45 PM

Libertarius <The_Truth_The_Whole_Truth@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<14347bfb794e94e3c6d8722d06d5f48b@news.scbiz.com>...

JoeCool wrote:

Evil is a human failing. Yes God created us so you can argue God
created evil.
Would you refuse to have a child because he will grow up with the
ability to make evil choices?

.....snip
....God created wood, doesn't it take a skilled craftsman to carve the
wood into something useful for your dwelling place?
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature" -- THE CHAIR	17 Oct 2003 11:46:25 AM

oldriver wrote:

Libertarius <The_Truth_The_Whole_Truth@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<14347bfb794e94e3c6d8722d06d5f48b@news.scbiz.com>...

JoeCool wrote:

Evil is a human failing. Yes God created us so you can argue God
created evil.
Would you refuse to have a child because he will grow up with the
ability to make evil choices?

....snip

...God created wood, doesn't it take a skilled craftsman to carve the
wood into something useful for your dwelling place?

===>Yes, wood would.
But what does it have to do with the subject?
.

User: "oldriver"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature" -- THE CHAIR	17 Oct 2003 07:54:43 PM

Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message news:<3F901CE1.D78D7AB5@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net>...

oldriver wrote:

Libertarius <The_Truth_The_Whole_Truth@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<14347bfb794e94e3c6d8722d06d5f48b@news.scbiz.com>...

JoeCool wrote:

Evil is a human failing. Yes God created us so you can argue God
created evil.
Would you refuse to have a child because he will grow up with the
ability to make evil choices?

....snip

...God created wood, doesn't it take a skilled craftsman to carve the
wood into something useful for your dwelling place?

===>Yes, wood would.
But what does it have to do with the subject?

....Let's pretend that evil is the undeveloped piece of wood. The
nurtured piece of wood becomes something useful. The unsculpted piece
of wood is like the person lacking spiritual development. The sculpted
piece of wood is like the spirit refined.
Some of the unsculpted pieces of wood are here in alt.religion
telling the sculpted pieces of wood what strong *****'s they are,
because they choose to remain unsculpted (does make useful firewood
though).
.

User: "Libertarius"
Title: Re: the stupidest Bible story -- "God's nature" -- THE CHAIR	17 Oct 2003 10:42:48 PM

oldriver wrote:

Libertarius <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net> wrote in message news:<3F901CE1.D78D7AB5@Nothing_But_The_Truth.net>...

oldriver wrote:

Libertarius <The_Truth_The_Whole_Truth@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message news:<14347bfb794e94e3c6d8722d06d5f48b@news.scbiz.com>...

JoeCool wrote:

Evil is a human failing. Yes God created us so you can argue God
created evil.
Would you refuse to have a child because he will grow up with the
ability to make evil choices?

....snip

...God created wood, doesn't it take a skilled craftsman to carve the
wood into something useful for your dwelling place?

===>Yes, wood would.
But what does it have to do with the subject?

...Let's pretend that evil is the undeveloped piece of wood. The
nurtured piece of wood becomes something useful. The unsculpted piece
of wood is like the person lacking spiritual development. The sculpted
piece of wood is like the spirit refined.
Some of the unsculpted pieces of wood are here in alt.religion
telling the sculpted pieces of wood what strong *****'s they are,
because they choose to remain unsculpted (does make useful firewood
though).

===>Silly analogy, implying that an infant is born evil.
.

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