| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Goy Liath" |
| Date: |
15 Sep 2004 05:45:33 PM |
| Object: |
evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
why do we have the religious impulse?
some would say that religiosity is drummed into us by society.
i disagree. i believe we are all born with quasi-religiosity. even
without religion, people attach to things--memories, people, ideals,
images, atheism--religiously.
think of devotees of rock stars, dogmatists of ideology(marxists,
nazis), trekkies, etc.
i think need for religiousness is as natural as feelings of hunger and
sex.
hunger reminds us that we must eat to live.
sex reminds us that we exist because of sex and our species goes on
because of sex.
so, what purpose does religiosity serve in our survival?
possible theories:
1. among primitive man, those with highest ability for religiosity
were able to better survive than those without. for instance, even
when times were hard, those with religious impulse were able to find
some kind of meaning in life and get by through 'spiritual' discipline
that those people who only thought in terms of food, shelter, and
sex--like animals.
indeed, think of prisoners. those who only fixate on the physicality
of their imprisonment go crazy and become ill.
but those with a belief in god or some higher being can overcome the
fact that his ***** is in the can.
if religion or myths or some such gave early man the power to overcome
the depradations of the immediate enviroment, those with the power to
be religious would have had the advantage over those who were only
fixated on the physicality of the enviroment and his well-being.
this theory would also suggest that religious longing seeks a union
with the ulitmate truth of our origin, like food and sex.
when we eat, we are subconsciously reminded that life is eat and be
eaten. animals eat but are also eaten. plants are eaten but they are
fertilized by dead plants and animals. there is a cycle of life
devouring life.
and sex subconsciously reminds us that life is a matter of constant
replication, a cycle of fuc*ing and sucking. we exist only because
life fuc*ed and sucked thru the ages. also, before there was male and
female, there was only one sex. so the union of the male and female
principles suggests something inside us subconsciously wants to be
reunited with that orginal harmony.
so perhaps religous instinct also subconsciously reminds us the origin
of all things. there is something not just in life but in matter
itself that wants to be united back to the source. so we have buddha
saying in order to reach nirvana, we must journey back to source of
all things before things were. so we have jesus saying we must be
good and be reunited with our father up in heaven. and we have
paganists saying man and animal are all of one sacred harmony. what
separates christians and buddhists from the nature-centered paganists
is the the former folk find nature all too horrible and cruel and ugly
and want to be reunited with a source higher than claw-and-fang
nature; they want to return to the womb of the universe.
anyway, if this is true, religiosity is as natural as hunger and sex;
it represents a subconscious and cosmic instinct in man to reunite
with the ultimate stuff that be. the problem with atheists is they
think religion can be sidestepped with reason. but, can we sidestep
sexual instincts and hunger with reason? i believe religious hunger
is as essential and important as sexual and stomachian hunger. it
must be satisfied in a reasonbly religious manner where moderation is
key(but same is true for sex. too much eating and too much fuc*ing are
not good for man or society).
but, where some religious folk screw up is in thinking they found the
just the right recipe for the spiritual hunger. the fact is no one is
satisfied with one bout of sex or lunch. you gotta keep fuc*ing and
eating. same with religion. you gotta keep searching, like joseph
campbell and george lucas. because if you say christianity, buddhism,
or islam answers all, then it's like having one meal for the rest of
your life and your tastebuds become rigid with dogmatic dullness.
2. another theory could be religiosity was not so much an evolutionary
advantage for man but a legacy of animalistic survival instincts.
animals have survived because they are emotionally and sensorily very
acute. when they saw an enemy beast, they shat and ran like *****.
they got hyper. they have this fierce instinct to live.
when animal turned into ape, it was still an beastly animal. when ape
turned into man, it become an animal that could rely more on reason.
yet, the animal emotions that developed over 100s of millions of yrs
still remained. this energy was so powerful that reason could not
control it--at least not totally. and religion is the compromise
between the wild animal passion and reason.
it's like we wanna growl but our reason tells us growling is ugly so
we sing hallelujah instead. we wanna howl and grunt but we know it's
ugly so we chant and dance to some higher being.
3. or, maybe religiosity exists within animals themselves. maybe
religiosity is a sense that what we see as reality isn't the ultimate
reality. and this is a sense that even animals probably have. when
dogs or chimps dream, they probably go to places that remind them that
THIS world isn't THE world but in which they are trapped in the form
of a dog or a chimp. now, there's no way a dog or chimp can
intellectually formulate this, but in their dreams, they might be able
to faintly SENSE it. ever see a dog drunk on beer? it starts acting
kinda funny, even religious-like. it starts feeling 'i'm more than
spot. why am i always so stupid and doing like i'm told and fetching
stuff and sitting when told to sit?' the dogs gets kinda
contemplative. so does religious feeling have something to do with
the dreamworld and the sense of alternate reality, something that
animals can feel also? remember that scene in The Bear where the cub
eats some mushrooms? it got spiritual for awhile. it started to
think there was more to life than being a bear and digging for grubs.
now, the bear didn't have the intelligence to take this feeling
anywhere but people do. because we are capable of dreams,
imagination, creativity, and connecting with worlds beyond what is
simply in front of our eyes, we have a naturally religious impulse.
it can manifest itself thru art or religion. so religion is the
product of collective communal creativity. it is the art of an entire
community or civilization, the unifying myth.
.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
16 Sep 2004 01:57:52 AM |
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"Goy Liath" <goyliath@hotmail.com> wrote
why do we have the religious impulse?
Good question.
some would say that religiosity is drummed into us by society.
I'd have to agree.
i disagree. i believe we are all born with quasi-religiosity.
"Spirtuality," which I would separate from "Religion."
i think need for religiousness is as natural as feelings of
hunger and sex.
or being angry... feeling sad... being in love... in fear...
so, what purpose does religiosity serve in our survival?
Who says that it serves any?
You compare (what I call) spirituality to hunger or sex, but
what if we compare it to, say, fear?
If we do that, all we have to do is conclude that emotions
have contributed a survival advantage over earlier hominid
species -- "caring" for each other, as an example -- and
spirituality makes perfect sense even without specifically
offering any advantages itself.
Sort of a package deal.
Emotionally capacity allows for spirituality... whether or
not the spirituality is itself useful is irrelevant... so long as
it's in with the emotional capacity and emotions themselves
generally do offer an advantage.
.
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| User: "anne marie hovgaard" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
16 Sep 2004 07:26:19 AM |
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"JTEM" <jaytem@gaydar.co.uk> wrote in message news:<mN2dnQdEnPaVpdTcRVn-pQ@comcast.com>...
"Goy Liath" <goyliath@hotmail.com> wrote
why do we have the religious impulse?
Good question.
some would say that religiosity is drummed into us by society.
I'd have to agree.
i disagree. i believe we are all born with quasi-religiosity.
"Spirtuality," which I would separate from "Religion."
i think need for religiousness is as natural as feelings of
hunger and sex.
or being angry... feeling sad... being in love... in fear...
so, what purpose does religiosity serve in our survival?
Who says that it serves any?
You compare (what I call) spirituality to hunger or sex, but
what if we compare it to, say, fear?
Comparing it to fear is not a bad idea - or more precisely, irrational
fear. Irrational fear-based behaviors like phobias can survive because
they are associated with behavior that has had survival value for the
species: you're not likely to die because you avoid harmless snakes
and spiders, but you might very well die because you failed to avoid a
poisonous one that you had no previous experience with (and so no
reason to fear). And religions can be used as a means of making people
behave in certain ways that are beneficial to society and/or the
individual. But once we learn enough about the world to be able to
separate the useful bits from the irrational or simply incorrect ones
(avoid unknown spiders in Australia but don't worry about Swedish ones
as there are no poisonous wild spiders in Sweden; don't eat raw pork
because it might contain dangerous parasites but properly cooked pork
is OK), and become sufficiently civilised to behave decently because
it is right, not because God will punish us if we don't, we don't need
them any more, they're just a nuisance.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
17 Sep 2004 12:17:28 AM |
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"anne marie hovgaard" <amhovgaard@yahoo.no> wrote
You compare (what I call) spirituality to hunger or sex, but
what if we compare it to, say, fear?
Comparing it to fear is not a bad idea - or more precisely, irrational
fear.
I was shying away from editorializing... as best I could anyhow.
It does honestly seem to me that "Spirituality" compares more favorably
to emotions than, say, the physical responses to hunger.
If someone claimed that Spirituality *IS* an emotion -- an awe or
wonder associated with the non-physical -- I couldn't tell them that
they're wrong.
No, my impulse isn't to 100% agree with that, but I'm the first to
admit that my answers are no better, and certainly no more
convincing.
And religions can be used as a means of making people
behave in certain ways that are beneficial to society and/or the
individual.
Religion != Spirituality
"Spirituality" may be focused on religion for most people, but
it's harldy required, and it's hardly the most important force at
work.
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| User: "anne marie hovgaard" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
20 Sep 2004 08:03:34 AM |
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"JTEM" <jaytem@gaydar.co.uk> wrote in message news:<L5-dnViZLI1i7NfcRVn-rw@comcast.com>...
"anne marie hovgaard" <amhovgaard@yahoo.no> wrote
You compare (what I call) spirituality to hunger or sex, but
what if we compare it to, say, fear?
Comparing it to fear is not a bad idea - or more precisely, irrational
fear.
I was shying away from editorializing... as best I could anyhow.
It does honestly seem to me that "Spirituality" compares more favorably
to emotions than, say, the physical responses to hunger.
If someone claimed that Spirituality *IS* an emotion -- an awe or
wonder associated with the non-physical -- I couldn't tell them that
they're wrong.
No, my impulse isn't to 100% agree with that, but I'm the first to
admit that my answers are no better, and certainly no more
convincing.
And religions can be used as a means of making people
behave in certain ways that are beneficial to society and/or the
individual.
Religion != Spirituality
Of course not. But spirituality can be religious, and spirituality can
be _an_aspect_of_ a religion. I was thinking of how those in power can
use that spiritual "emotion" as a means of coercion, for good or bad.
Whether it's the ecstatic experience of being one with God or Nature
or something else awe-inspiring (caused by meditation, mania, LSD or a
lot of THC) or just those vague feelings many people have that "there
has to be something more" it can be shaped and harnessed and used as
motivation for following religious norms. Religion as enslaved
spirituality - a bit sad, really, even for a
not-particularly-spiritual person like me :( I agree that there are
lots of other reasons why people are religious or invent religions,
and lots of other ways of being spiritual, but I think the spiritual
aspect is an important part of what makes a religion a religion, as
opposed to "just" a philosophy, a political ideology, or hero worship
(and when one of those becomes a religion, it is because spirituality
has been added to the mix). At least that's what it looks like from
the outside ;)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
20 Sep 2004 07:58:16 PM |
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On 16-Sep-2004, "JTEM" <jaytem@gaydar.co.uk> wrote:
And religions can be used as a means of making people
behave in certain ways that are beneficial to society and/or the
individual.
Religion != Spirituality
But if spirituality can increase a population's odds of survival, and the
rest of religion doesn't hurt this to a greater extent, then that is a valid
answer.
The question arises - do highly spiritual populations survive better than
other populations?
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| User: "james bentley" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
16 Sep 2004 08:14:57 AM |
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Well, I HAVE to ask.....what if there IS a God out there who loves us
and wants to help us....?
"JTEM" <jaytem@gaydar.co.uk> wrote in message news:<mN2dnQdEnPaVpdTcRVn-pQ@comcast.com>...
"Goy Liath" <goyliath@hotmail.com> wrote
why do we have the religious impulse?
Good question.
some would say that religiosity is drummed into us by society.
I'd have to agree.
i disagree. i believe we are all born with quasi-religiosity.
"Spirtuality," which I would separate from "Religion."
i think need for religiousness is as natural as feelings of
hunger and sex.
or being angry... feeling sad... being in love... in fear...
so, what purpose does religiosity serve in our survival?
Who says that it serves any?
You compare (what I call) spirituality to hunger or sex, but
what if we compare it to, say, fear?
If we do that, all we have to do is conclude that emotions
have contributed a survival advantage over earlier hominid
species -- "caring" for each other, as an example -- and
spirituality makes perfect sense even without specifically
offering any advantages itself.
Sort of a package deal.
Emotionally capacity allows for spirituality... whether or
not the spirituality is itself useful is irrelevant... so long as
it's in with the emotional capacity and emotions themselves
generally do offer an advantage.
.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
17 Sep 2004 12:18:33 AM |
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"james bentley" <jrbentley@htcomp.net> wrote
Well, I HAVE to ask.....what if there IS a God out there who loves
us and wants to help us....?
Where's the dilema?
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
16 Sep 2004 08:28:02 AM |
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"james bentley" <jrbentley@htcomp.net> wrote in message
news:be40ca3b.0409160514.2a7253e3@posting.google.com...
Well, I HAVE to ask.....what if there IS a God out there who loves us
and wants to help us....?
What if there is? You would think such a being would make its presence
known.
--
__________
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "Goy Liath" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
16 Sep 2004 12:49:58 PM |
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"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in message news:<2qtin0F13atn0U1@uni-berlin.de>...
"james bentley" <jrbentley@htcomp.net> wrote in message
news:be40ca3b.0409160514.2a7253e3@posting.google.com...
Well, I HAVE to ask.....what if there IS a God out there who loves us
and wants to help us....?
What if there is? You would think such a being would make its presence
known.
some would say our innate goodness is proof of such a being.
following platonic line of thought, everything that is is a
manifestation of what had been possible and intrinsic in the universe.
so our goodness is not the product of man but the product of the
universe manifested thru man. so is badness.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
16 Sep 2004 12:51:51 PM |
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On 16 Sep 2004 10:49:58 -0700, (Goy Liath) wrote:
"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote in message news:<2qtin0F13atn0U1@uni-berlin.de>...
"james bentley" <jrbentley@htcomp.net> wrote in message
news:be40ca3b.0409160514.2a7253e3@posting.google.com...
Well, I HAVE to ask.....what if there IS a God out there who loves us
and wants to help us....?
What if there is? You would think such a being would make its presence
known.
some would say our innate goodness is proof of such a being.
But they never say why, apart from argumentum ad ignorantium. It
rationalises their pre-existing belief but that's all because it
doesn't follow.
following platonic line of thought, everything that is is a
manifestation of what had been possible and intrinsic in the universe.
so our goodness is not the product of man but the product of the
universe manifested thru man. so is badness.
.
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| User: "Norma Bates" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
16 Sep 2004 03:48:33 PM |
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Must be God's will that this topic appears in this group
(rec.arts.movies.past-films).
The origins of religion are easily Google-able. Years ago, one
actually had to find these things in books.
All religions originated from natural observation, and the attempt to
explain what was seen.
The Sun obviously brought light and life -- growth of plants and
harvests. Its seasonal passage through the "heavens" was minutely
studied, and as long as 10,000 years ago, man knew of its annual
passage through its twelve "mansions" (the 12 signs of the zodiac).
Each year, the Sun reached its southernmost point below the equator in
late December, and on December 25th, after three days of hovering
there, began its slow climb back "up" northward.
The astronomical knowledge of the ancients was quite extensive and
remarkably accurate, as seen in the construction of the pyramids and
other monuments around the world.
As always, knowledge was power. The Sun-God was named. The
Moon-Goddess was named. So were the planets ("wanderers" among the
otherwise fixed stars that formed the backdrop of the constellations].
Even today, the days of the week are named for the planets. Sun-day.
Mon(Moon)-day. Tuesday=Mars (Martis dies).
Wednesday="Mercredi"=Mercury. Thursday=Thor's Day=Jove=Jupiter.
Friday=Aphrodite=Fria(German love goddess)=Venus. Saturday=Saturn.
Correlations were made along with astronomical observances. Every
spring, things bloomed. Aries, in astrology, is still the sign of "new
birth."
And so on.
Knowledge, then and now, was power. The astronomers/astrologers
observed the intricate order of the "heavens," understood that the
earth rotated around the Sun (and not the other way around), etc.
To transmit that knowledge to superstitious and uneducated masses,
stories/myths were constructed and embellished over time.
The Sun God of ancient Egypt, at least 5,000 years before the
Christian myths created a son-OF-God through the virgin goddess,
Isis-Mari (Mary), who gave birth in a cave/manger. This mythical
son-of-god lived 30 years (approximately one Saturn cycle through the
zodiac) and was crucified on an Egyptian cross, between two criminals.
Over time, the stories coalesced, were told and retold and worshipped.
The son-of-god was said to have been born on December 25th, the day
the Sun begins its annual "rebirth" and northern climb.
Every year, the sun "dies" and is at its "weakest" point below the
equator . . . for three days. Miraculously, it "resurrects" and begins
to climb again, bringing new life.
The 12 signs of the zodiac, the 12 annual stages of the Sun in
relation to earth, became personified as the twelve "disciples."
Regions demanded adherence to their various "gods" and myths, and wars
were fought over them. They still are, as witness Islamic "terrorism"
-- which, for anyone who cares to read the Koran and Hadith, is simply
a literal working-out of Islamic teachings.
So terrified was the Catholic church that the public would learn of
Galileo's forthcoming publication proving that the earth rotated
around the Sun (and not, as the Church taught, that the Sun rotated
around the earth), that it threatened Galileo with excommunication and
even death if he published.
It took 350 years (up until just a few years ago), for the Church to
officially apologize and admit it was wrong in that instance.
Religion's anti-scientific anti-intellectualism is alive and well in
its stance on contemporary issues like stem-cell research and
homosexuality.
The Pope wages war against homosexuality as "unnatural," for example,
willfully ignorant of its ubiquitous existence throughout the animal
kingdom. The most recent scientific publication on this subject,
perhaps, is Dr. Bagemihl's "Biological Exuberance," which documents
homosexuality -- including lifelong relationships -- among more than
450 species of animals, including whales, elephants, dolphins, camels,
apes, etc. One chapter even examines the evolutionary place of
homosexuality. So, unless one is prepared to go along with religious
leaders and believe that God created "evil" homosexual penguins, etc.,
one must accept that homosexuality is as "natural" as heterosexuality.
Perhaps the most intelligent, lucid and literary writing on religion
in general and Christianity in particular is Thomas Paine's "The Age
of Reason."
Like the Koran, the Hadith, the origins of religions, etc., "The Age
of Reason" is freely available online.
Why waste time flaming each other in newsgroups -- or demonizing and
killing each other -- when there's so much one can learn about these
topics -- just a mouse-click away?
.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
17 Sep 2004 05:19:58 AM |
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Robibnikoff wrote:
"james bentley" <jrbentley@htcomp.net> wrote in message
news:be40ca3b.0409160514.2a7253e3@posting.google.com...
Well, I HAVE to ask.....what if there IS a God out there who loves us
and wants to help us....?
What if there is? You would think such a being would make its presence
known.
Not if it was purely an imagined thing by freakish humans
--
__________
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
17 Sep 2004 07:28:13 AM |
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"bob young" <alaspectrum@netvigator.com> wrote in message
news:414ABA4F.4CC765A0@netvigator.com...
Robibnikoff wrote:
"james bentley" <jrbentley@htcomp.net> wrote in message
news:be40ca3b.0409160514.2a7253e3@posting.google.com...
Well, I HAVE to ask.....what if there IS a God out there who loves us
and wants to help us....?
What if there is? You would think such a being would make its presence
known.
Not if it was purely an imagined thing by freakish humans
LOL, well, I think that goes without saying :)
--
__________
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
17 Sep 2004 12:47:54 AM |
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On 16 Sep 2004 06:14:57 -0700, (james bentley)
wrote:
Well, I HAVE to ask.....what if there IS a God out there who loves us
and wants to help us....?
What is a g-o-d?
What motivation is there for some universe-spanning and time-spaning
entity to do anything?
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
17 Sep 2004 07:03:21 AM |
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On 16-Sep-2004, (james bentley) wrote:
Well, I HAVE to ask.....what if there IS a God out there who loves us
and wants to help us....?
If He's omnipotent, then there's no problem. If He wants to help us, He'll
succeed.
If He allows even one of His children to be tortured forever and ever
without hope of parole, then obviously He either is not omnipotent or He's
evil.
The question posed is how religion helps us survive - what evolutionary
pressure is there in belief. It is not obvious that any help that occurs
after our death effects this. But if God does assist in the survival of
believers, we should be able to see a difference between survival rates of
people who have different religious beliefs by studying historical records.
.
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| User: "bob young" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
17 Sep 2004 05:18:49 AM |
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james bentley wrote:
Well, I HAVE to ask.....what if there IS a God out there who loves us
and wants to help us....?
....then I must retort, what if there is a fairy out there that wants to help us.
Be realistic. Man has craved for 'help', good health,long life, you name it, since he could
think straight. He then invented gods to give him what he craved and has not thought
straight since!
"JTEM" <jaytem@gaydar.co.uk> wrote in message news:<mN2dnQdEnPaVpdTcRVn-pQ@comcast.com>...
"Goy Liath" <goyliath@hotmail.com> wrote
why do we have the religious impulse?
Good question.
some would say that religiosity is drummed into us by society.
I'd have to agree.
i disagree. i believe we are all born with quasi-religiosity.
"Spirtuality," which I would separate from "Religion."
i think need for religiousness is as natural as feelings of
hunger and sex.
or being angry... feeling sad... being in love... in fear...
so, what purpose does religiosity serve in our survival?
Who says that it serves any?
You compare (what I call) spirituality to hunger or sex, but
what if we compare it to, say, fear?
If we do that, all we have to do is conclude that emotions
have contributed a survival advantage over earlier hominid
species -- "caring" for each other, as an example -- and
spirituality makes perfect sense even without specifically
offering any advantages itself.
Sort of a package deal.
Emotionally capacity allows for spirituality... whether or
not the spirituality is itself useful is irrelevant... so long as
it's in with the emotional capacity and emotions themselves
generally do offer an advantage.
.
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| User: "Lookingglass" |
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| Title: OT evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
16 Sep 2004 12:03:36 AM |
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"Goy Liath" <goyliath@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a1ca7b5e.0409151445.2e35dfa1@posting.google.com...
why do we have the religious impulse?
some would say that religiosity is drummed into us by society.
i disagree. i believe we are all born with quasi-religiosity.
I have always found this question interesting... some people need "god"...
they need to feel looked after and taken care of... others need to know that
their lives had a "meaning"... that when they die, if they led a good life,
they will go to heaven or some how be rewarded for that good life.
But then what about atheists? I am an atheist and do not need to be rewarded
or do I need to be looked after by god... I take care of myself and those
that I love. I am a good person and associate with good people.
Well... if there is no god then what does it matter if I lead a good life or
a life of "sin"...? Most of us I think want to be comfortable in the life
we lead and we want security for our families... that seems natural... (as
well as the instinct for survival). I do follow a sort of golden rule
though... I try to be kind and compassionate, hoping that I will be treated
the same by others... though that is not always the case... particularly by
religious people who would condemn me and my way of life.
There are some who believe we are "wired" in the brain to believe in god...
here is one.....................
http://www.godpart.com/
Dave www.Shemakhan.com
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| User: "Crowfoot" |
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| Title: Re: OT evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
16 Sep 2004 02:18:36 AM |
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In article <I892d.185580$9d6.7388@attbi_s54>, "Lookingglass"
<Shemakhan@comcast.net> wrote:
"Goy Liath" <goyliath@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a1ca7b5e.0409151445.2e35dfa1@posting.google.com...
why do we have the religious impulse?
some would say that religiosity is drummed into us by society.
i disagree. i believe we are all born with quasi-religiosity.
I have always found this question interesting... some people need
"god"...
they need to feel looked after and taken care of... others need to know
that
their lives had a "meaning"... that when they die, if they led a good
life,
they will go to heaven or some how be rewarded for that good life.
But then what about atheists? I am an atheist and do not need to be
rewarded or do I need to be looked after by god...
Young souls need an authority figure. Matures sometimes do, Oldies just
toddle on without the need. it's a matter of experience, and gradually
shedding childish fears.
--
Crow
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: OT evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
17 Sep 2004 09:51:10 AM |
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Crowfoot wrote:
In article <I892d.185580$9d6.7388@attbi_s54>, "Lookingglass"
<Shemakhan@comcast.net> wrote:
"Goy Liath" <goyliath@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a1ca7b5e.0409151445.2e35dfa1@posting.google.com...
why do we have the religious impulse?
some would say that religiosity is drummed into us by society.
i disagree. i believe we are all born with quasi-religiosity.
I have always found this question interesting... some people need
"god"...
they need to feel looked after and taken care of... others need to know
that
their lives had a "meaning"... that when they die, if they led a good
life,
they will go to heaven or some how be rewarded for that good life.
But then what about atheists? I am an atheist and do not need to be
rewarded or do I need to be looked after by god...
Young souls need an authority figure. Matures sometimes do, Oldies just
toddle on without the need. it's a matter of experience, and gradually
shedding childish fears.
No such thing as a soul dude.
Your born...you die....that's it.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
Skype callto://hellward
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| User: "Crowfoot" |
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| Title: Re: OT evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
18 Sep 2004 04:12:36 AM |
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In article <414afa0e$0$20252$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>, Jez
<iced_spear@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
Crowfoot wrote:
In article <I892d.185580$9d6.7388@attbi_s54>, "Lookingglass"
<Shemakhan@comcast.net> wrote:
"Goy Liath" <goyliath@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a1ca7b5e.0409151445.2e35dfa1@posting.google.com...
why do we have the religious impulse?
some would say that religiosity is drummed into us by society.
i disagree. i believe we are all born with quasi-religiosity.
I have always found this question interesting... some people need
"god"...
they need to feel looked after and taken care of... others need to know
that
their lives had a "meaning"... that when they die, if they led a good
life,
they will go to heaven or some how be rewarded for that good life.
But then what about atheists? I am an atheist and do not need to be
rewarded or do I need to be looked after by god...
Young souls need an authority figure. Matures sometimes do, Oldies
just
toddle on without the need. it's a matter of experience, and gradually
shedding childish fears.
No such thing as a soul dude.
Your born...you die....that's it.
Believe that if it suits you; but you sure ain't proved it, nor has
anyone else.
--
Crow
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: OT evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
18 Sep 2004 11:56:27 AM |
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Crowfoot wrote:
In article <414afa0e$0$20252$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>, Jez
<iced_spear@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
Young souls need an authority figure. Matures sometimes do, Oldies
just
toddle on without the need. it's a matter of experience, and gradually
shedding childish fears.
No such thing as a soul dude.
Your born...you die....that's it.
Believe that if it suits you; but you sure ain't proved it, nor has
anyone else.
More evidence for just that, than any 'Soul' having another life.
--
Jez
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
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| User: "Crowfoot" |
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| Title: Re: OT evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
19 Sep 2004 10:10:25 PM |
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In article <oNKdneO7cIN39dHcRVnyiw@pipex.net>, Jez
<iced_spear@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
Crowfoot wrote:
In article <414afa0e$0$20252$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>, Jez
<iced_spear@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
Young souls need an authority figure. Matures sometimes do, Oldies
just
toddle on without the need. it's a matter of experience, and
gradually
shedding childish fears.
No such thing as a soul dude.
Your born...you die....that's it.
Believe that if it suits you; but you sure ain't proved it, nor has
anyone else.
More evidence for just that, than any 'Soul' having another life.
Nope. In these matters, one way or the other, proof has not been found
-- or we wouldn't still be debating it.
--
Crow
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| User: "Dave" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
15 Sep 2004 09:41:43 PM |
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(Goy Liath) wrote in message news:<a1ca7b5e.0409151445.2e35dfa1@posting.google.com>...
why do we have the religious impulse?
[...]
Is this the same impulse that creates the madness of mob behavior?
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| User: "Crowfoot" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
16 Sep 2004 02:19:44 AM |
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In article <5591d176.0409151841.6ce188ad@posting.google.com>,
galt_57@hotmail.com (Dave) wrote:
goyliath@hotmail.com (Goy Liath) wrote in message
news:<a1ca7b5e.0409151445.2e35dfa1@posting.google.com>...
why do we have the religious impulse?
[...]
Is this the same impulse that creates the madness of mob behavior?
Yes, if you credit the idea of souls maturing through many incarnations.
The Young soul is terrified of individuality and will do anything to go
along with the crowd, just like most young persons, who desire only to
fit in.
--
Crow
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| User: "AnotherObserver®" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
16 Sep 2004 05:22:03 PM |
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Crowfoot <suzych@swcp.com> wrote:
In article <5591d176.0409151841.6ce188ad@posting.google.com>,
galt_57@hotmail.com (Dave) wrote:
goyliath@hotmail.com (Goy Liath) wrote in message
news:<a1ca7b5e.0409151445.2e35dfa1@posting.google.com>...
why do we have the religious impulse?
[...]
Is this the same impulse that creates the madness of mob behavior?
Yes, if you credit the idea of souls maturing through many incarnations.
The Young soul is terrified of individuality and will do anything to go
along with the crowd, just like most young persons, who desire only to
fit in.
If that's the case then I must be one death away from nirvana.
--
Davidwd
~~~~~~~~~
irreligionist
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
17 Sep 2004 09:50:25 AM |
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Crowfoot wrote:
In article <5591d176.0409151841.6ce188ad@posting.google.com>,
galt_57@hotmail.com (Dave) wrote:
goyliath@hotmail.com (Goy Liath) wrote in message
news:<a1ca7b5e.0409151445.2e35dfa1@posting.google.com>...
why do we have the religious impulse?
[...]
Is this the same impulse that creates the madness of mob behavior?
Yes, if you credit the idea of souls maturing through many incarnations.
Well, I don't.
The Young soul is terrified of individuality and will do anything to go
along with the crowd, just like most young persons, who desire only to
fit in.
Where is this 'soul' thingy ?
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
Skype callto://hellward
.
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| User: "Crowfoot" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
18 Sep 2004 04:13:02 AM |
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In article <414af9e1$0$20252$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>, Jez
<iced_spear@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
Crowfoot wrote:
In article <5591d176.0409151841.6ce188ad@posting.google.com>,
galt_57@hotmail.com (Dave) wrote:
goyliath@hotmail.com (Goy Liath) wrote in message
news:<a1ca7b5e.0409151445.2e35dfa1@posting.google.com>...
why do we have the religious impulse?
[...]
Is this the same impulse that creates the madness of mob behavior?
Yes, if you credit the idea of souls maturing through many
incarnations.
Well, I don't.
The Young soul is terrified of individuality and will do anything to go
along with the crowd, just like most young persons, who desire only to
fit in.
Where is this 'soul' thingy ?
You'll find out, eventually.
--
Crow
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
18 Sep 2004 09:51:52 PM |
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On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 03:13:02 -0600, Crowfoot <suzych@swcp.com> wrote:
In article <414af9e1$0$20252$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>, Jez
<iced_spear@NOSPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
Crowfoot wrote:
In article <5591d176.0409151841.6ce188ad@posting.google.com>,
galt_57@hotmail.com (Dave) wrote:
goyliath@hotmail.com (Goy Liath) wrote in message
news:<a1ca7b5e.0409151445.2e35dfa1@posting.google.com>...
why do we have the religious impulse?
[...]
Is this the same impulse that creates the madness of mob behavior?
Yes, if you credit the idea of souls maturing through many
incarnations.
Well, I don't.
The Young soul is terrified of individuality and will do anything to go
along with the crowd, just like most young persons, who desire only to
fit in.
Where is this 'soul' thingy ?
You'll find out, eventually.
(laughter)
Ah, yes, the patented Xtian love of empty threats and spouted idiocy.
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| User: "Calvin Rice" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
18 Sep 2004 03:38:07 PM |
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(Goy Liath) wrote in message news:<a1ca7b5e.0409151445.2e35dfa1@posting.google.com>...
why do we have the religious impulse?
...
It's interesting that of all the theories that you came up with,
you couldn't bring yourself to mention one more theory, ie. that
religion might be true. Jesus might have brought the truth, which
later was corrupted by the Church. Likewise Mohammed might have
brought the truth, later corrupted to the extent of justifying mass
murder. Buddha may have brought the truth, and Krishna, and Rama,
and Zoroaster. As long as you're listing 'theories' that might explain
religion, why do you leave out this one?
-cr
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: evolutionary explanation for religious need? |
19 Sep 2004 08:40:29 AM |
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Calvin Rice wrote:
goyliath@hotmail.com (Goy Liath) wrote in message news:<a1ca7b5e.0409151445.2e35dfa1@posting.google.com>...
why do we have the religious impulse?
...
It's interesting that of all the theories that you came up with,
you couldn't bring yourself to mention one more theory, ie. that
religion might be true. Jesus might have brought the truth, which
later was corrupted by the Church. Likewise Mohammed might have
brought the truth, later corrupted to the extent of justifying mass
murder. Buddha may have brought the truth, and Krishna, and Rama,
and Zoroaster. As long as you're listing 'theories' that might explain
religion, why do you leave out this one?
Why would the 'truth' need anyone to bring it ?
--
Jez
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
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