| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"stoney" |
| Date: |
10 Feb 2007 11:12:12 AM |
| Object: |
Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17075302/?GT1=9033
Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million
La. man cleared in killing spent 18 years in prison, most on death row
Updated: 8:26 p.m. ET Feb. 9, 2007
NEW ORLEANS - A federal jury awarded $14 million Friday to a former
death row inmate who came within weeks of execution but was exonerated.
John Thompson, 40, maintained through 18 years in prison that he was
innocent of killing hotel executive Ray Liuzza, 34, during a robbery in
December 1984.
In 1999, weeks before Thompson was to die, a defense investigator found
a crime lab report that cleared him of the robbery charge. The blood
type of the robber, found on the victim’s pants, did not match
Thompson’s.
A judge resentenced Thompson to live in prison without parole, but the
murder conviction stood until a state appeals court overturned it and
ordered a new trial. Thompson was found not guilty in the retrial.
Jurors in the civil trial ordered the Orleans Parish and several current
and former prosecutors to pay Thompson, said Gordon Cooney. Along with
fellow attorney Michael Banks, Cooney worked 14 years to have Thompson
retried and acquitted.
© 2007 The Associated Press
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
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| User: "Conspiracy of Doves" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
10 Feb 2007 03:14:00 PM |
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On Feb 10, 12:12 pm, stoney <sto...@the.net> wrote:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17075302/?GT1=9033
Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million
La. man cleared in killing spent 18 years in prison, most on death row
Updated: 8:26 p.m. ET Feb. 9, 2007
NEW ORLEANS - A federal jury awarded $14 million Friday to a former
death row inmate who came within weeks of execution but was exonerated.
John Thompson, 40, maintained through 18 years in prison that he was
innocent of killing hotel executive Ray Liuzza, 34, during a robbery in
December 1984.
In 1999, weeks before Thompson was to die, a defense investigator found
a crime lab report that cleared him of the robbery charge. The blood
type of the robber, found on the victim's pants, did not match
Thompson's.
A judge resentenced Thompson to live in prison without parole, but the
murder conviction stood until a state appeals court overturned it and
ordered a new trial. Thompson was found not guilty in the retrial.
Jurors in the civil trial ordered the Orleans Parish and several current
and former prosecutors to pay Thompson, said Gordon Cooney. Along with
fellow attorney Michael Banks, Cooney worked 14 years to have Thompson
retried and acquitted.
There was a case recently where a person was proven innocent and
released after nearly twenty years in prison.
Although his did win a large cash settlement from the state, the state
had the GALL to actually deduct a charge for room and board from it!
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
10 Feb 2007 06:26:50 PM |
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On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 09:12:12 -0800, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17075302/?GT1=9033
Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million
La. man cleared in killing spent 18 years in prison, most on death row
Updated: 8:26 p.m. ET Feb. 9, 2007
NEW ORLEANS - A federal jury awarded $14 million Friday to a former
death row inmate who came within weeks of execution but was exonerated.
John Thompson, 40, maintained through 18 years in prison that he was
innocent of killing hotel executive Ray Liuzza, 34, during a robbery in
December 1984.
In 1999, weeks before Thompson was to die, a defense investigator found
a crime lab report that cleared him of the robbery charge. The blood
type of the robber, found on the victim’s pants, did not match
Thompson’s.
A judge resentenced Thompson to live in prison without parole, but the
murder conviction stood until a state appeals court overturned it and
ordered a new trial. Thompson was found not guilty in the retrial.
Jurors in the civil trial ordered the Orleans Parish and several current
and former prosecutors to pay Thompson, said Gordon Cooney. Along with
fellow attorney Michael Banks, Cooney worked 14 years to have Thompson
retried and acquitted.
How much do you want to bet he never sees a penny?
© 2007 The Associated Press
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
10 Feb 2007 09:12:26 PM |
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On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:26:50 -0500 there was an Ancient John Baker
<nunya@bizniz.net> who stoppeth one in alt.atheism
How much do you want to bet he never sees a penny?
Most state and local governments have insurance policies to cover
awards like this. Since the prosecutor was acting as an agent of the
government, the gentleman will be paid, and then the state will come
after the prosecutor.
I recall one oncident where a man one a large judgement against a
city. The city smugly announced it didn't have the money. The judge
awarded ownership of City Hall and the police station to the man, who
then began charging rent.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2011
"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the
source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a
stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as
good as dead: his eyes are closed." - Albert Einstein
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| User: "Elroy Willis" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
11 Feb 2007 06:21:19 AM |
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Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote in alt.atheism
I recall one oncident where a man one a large judgement against a
city. The city smugly announced it didn't have the money. The judge
awarded ownership of City Hall and the police station to the man, who
then began charging rent.
Sounds like it'd make a good movie.
--
Elroy Willis
www.elroysemporium.com
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
10 Feb 2007 12:42:57 PM |
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stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote in news:b3vrs25q8e27k8g59uc32ir8spe9jk4cco@
4ax.com:
NEW ORLEANS - A federal jury awarded $14 million Friday to a former
death row inmate who came within weeks of execution but was exonerated.
It amazes me that America, the most powerful country in the world, still
has a 15th century policy when sentencing violent criminals. The fact is
(illustrated here), mistakes can be made. We will never know how many
wrongfully accused death-row inmates were also wrongfully executed.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
Convicted by Earthquack
Plonked by Fester
.
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| User: "G-Ride" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
10 Feb 2007 03:28:54 PM |
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"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns98D36CFF428F2vicman@216.196.97.142...
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote in news:b3vrs25q8e27k8g59uc32ir8spe9jk4cco@
4ax.com:
NEW ORLEANS - A federal jury awarded $14 million Friday to a former
death row inmate who came within weeks of execution but was exonerated.
It amazes me that America, the most powerful country in the world, still
has a 15th century policy when sentencing violent criminals. The fact is
(illustrated here), mistakes can be made. We will never know how many
wrongfully accused death-row inmates were also wrongfully executed.
One of the many good reasons why the death penalty should be put to death.
--
Aloha, G-Ride
The force that's forcing you to feel like busting up a Starbucks.
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
10 Feb 2007 07:31:33 PM |
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On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:28:54 -1000, "G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <536romF1rk6dsU1@mid.individual.net>
"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns98D36CFF428F2vicman@216.196.97.142...
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote in news:b3vrs25q8e27k8g59uc32ir8spe9jk4cco@
4ax.com:
NEW ORLEANS - A federal jury awarded $14 million Friday to a former
death row inmate who came within weeks of execution but was exonerated.
It amazes me that America, the most powerful country in the world, still
has a 15th century policy when sentencing violent criminals. The fact is
(illustrated here), mistakes can be made. We will never know how many
wrongfully accused death-row inmates were also wrongfully executed.
One of the many good reasons why the death penalty should be put to death.
Except for presidents who commit war crimes.
Keep it for him.
--
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
10 Feb 2007 07:58:08 PM |
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One fine day in alt.atheism, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com>
bloodied us up with this:
On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:28:54 -1000, "G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <536romF1rk6dsU1@mid.individual.net>
"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns98D36CFF428F2vicman@216.196.97.142...
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote in
news:b3vrs25q8e27k8g59uc32ir8spe9jk4cco@ 4ax.com:
NEW ORLEANS - A federal jury awarded $14 million Friday to a former
death row inmate who came within weeks of execution but was
exonerated.
It amazes me that America, the most powerful country in the world,
still has a 15th century policy when sentencing violent criminals.
The fact is (illustrated here), mistakes can be made. We will never
know how many wrongfully accused death-row inmates were also
wrongfully executed.
One of the many good reasons why the death penalty should be put to
death.
Except for presidents who commit war crimes.
Keep it for him.
--
To tell you the truth, I get more satisfaction with every new picture I
see of Charlie Manson sitting in his cell aging than I do imagining him
dead.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack. Plonked by Fester.
Member Duke Spanking Club.
.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
10 Feb 2007 11:33:50 PM |
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On 11 Feb 2007 01:58:08 GMT, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com> wrote:
- Refer: <Xns98D3B6CD777BFvicman@66.250.146.128>
One fine day in alt.atheism, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com>
bloodied us up with this:
On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:28:54 -1000, "G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <536romF1rk6dsU1@mid.individual.net>
"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns98D36CFF428F2vicman@216.196.97.142...
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote in
news:b3vrs25q8e27k8g59uc32ir8spe9jk4cco@ 4ax.com:
NEW ORLEANS - A federal jury awarded $14 million Friday to a former
death row inmate who came within weeks of execution but was
exonerated.
It amazes me that America, the most powerful country in the world,
still has a 15th century policy when sentencing violent criminals.
The fact is (illustrated here), mistakes can be made. We will never
know how many wrongfully accused death-row inmates were also
wrongfully executed.
One of the many good reasons why the death penalty should be put to
death.
Except for presidents who commit war crimes.
Keep it for him.
--
To tell you the truth, I get more satisfaction with every new picture I
see of Charlie Manson sitting in his cell aging than I do imagining him
dead.
A couple of HUGE differences, there.
1) Manson's record is positively angelic compared to Dubya's literal
genocide(s), even discounting the people that he sent to death whilst
Texas Governor.
2) Bush Senior is not likely to "spring" Chucky Manson from prison any
time soon.
The chances of him springing his son from Spandau is close to 100%,
legally or not.
The death penalty should be reserved for vicous intentionally
genocidal war criminals.
George Walker Bush fits this category nicely, (and more).
(People tend to forget how many innocent persons that he had executed
whilst pretending to Govern Texas.
His only records in this respect are "the most" killed, both in Texas,
and Iraq.
I shan't mention Colombia, or the other American countries that he has
razed.)
--
.
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| User: "Ben Kaufman" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
11 Feb 2007 09:36:27 AM |
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On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 16:03:50 +1030, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com> wrote:
On 11 Feb 2007 01:58:08 GMT, Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com> wrote:
- Refer: <Xns98D3B6CD777BFvicman@66.250.146.128>
One fine day in alt.atheism, Michael Gray <mikegray@newsguy.com>
bloodied us up with this:
On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:28:54 -1000, "G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com>
wrote:
- Refer: <536romF1rk6dsU1@mid.individual.net>
"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns98D36CFF428F2vicman@216.196.97.142...
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote in
news:b3vrs25q8e27k8g59uc32ir8spe9jk4cco@ 4ax.com:
NEW ORLEANS - A federal jury awarded $14 million Friday to a former
death row inmate who came within weeks of execution but was
exonerated.
It amazes me that America, the most powerful country in the world,
still has a 15th century policy when sentencing violent criminals.
The fact is (illustrated here), mistakes can be made. We will never
know how many wrongfully accused death-row inmates were also
wrongfully executed.
One of the many good reasons why the death penalty should be put to
death.
Except for presidents who commit war crimes.
Keep it for him.
--
To tell you the truth, I get more satisfaction with every new picture I
see of Charlie Manson sitting in his cell aging than I do imagining him
dead.
A couple of HUGE differences, there.
1) Manson's record is positively angelic compared to Dubya's literal
genocide(s), even discounting the people that he sent to death whilst
Texas Governor.
2) Bush Senior is not likely to "spring" Chucky Manson from prison any
time soon.
The chances of him springing his son from Spandau is close to 100%,
legally or not.
The death penalty should be reserved for vicous intentionally
genocidal war criminals.
George Walker Bush fits this category nicely, (and more).
(People tend to forget how many innocent persons that he had executed
whilst pretending to Govern Texas.
His only records in this respect are "the most" killed, both in Texas,
and Iraq.
I shan't mention Colombia, or the other American countries that he has
razed.)
And Manson alienated the Jewish vote when he started drawing/carving Swastikas
on his head. :-)
Ben
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
10 Feb 2007 06:50:35 PM |
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On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:28:54 -1000, "G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns98D36CFF428F2vicman@216.196.97.142...
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote in news:b3vrs25q8e27k8g59uc32ir8spe9jk4cco@
4ax.com:
NEW ORLEANS - A federal jury awarded $14 million Friday to a former
death row inmate who came within weeks of execution but was exonerated.
It amazes me that America, the most powerful country in the world, still
has a 15th century policy when sentencing violent criminals. The fact is
(illustrated here), mistakes can be made. We will never know how many
wrongfully accused death-row inmates were also wrongfully executed.
One of the many good reasons why the death penalty should be put to death.
I've tried to make that point to death penalty proponents time and
time again. Their usual response? "It's a small price to pay to rid
society of the real criminals." Fucking idiots.
.
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| User: "Smiler" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
10 Feb 2007 09:15:02 PM |
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"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:o0qss21k1db5je9lgg7i70qa71jdj8bus1@4ax.com...
On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:28:54 -1000, "G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns98D36CFF428F2vicman@216.196.97.142...
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote in
news:b3vrs25q8e27k8g59uc32ir8spe9jk4cco@
4ax.com:
NEW ORLEANS - A federal jury awarded $14 million Friday to a former
death row inmate who came within weeks of execution but was exonerated.
It amazes me that America, the most powerful country in the world, still
has a 15th century policy when sentencing violent criminals. The fact
is
(illustrated here), mistakes can be made. We will never know how many
wrongfully accused death-row inmates were also wrongfully executed.
One of the many good reasons why the death penalty should be put to death.
I've tried to make that point to death penalty proponents time and
time again. Their usual response? "It's a small price to pay to rid
society of the real criminals." Fucking idiots.
Ask them if they would want to be the ones to "pay that price".
Smiler,
The godless one
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| User: "Tapio Erola" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
11 Feb 2007 06:18:03 AM |
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"Smiler" <Smiler@Joe.King.com> writes:
"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:o0qss21k1db5je9lgg7i70qa71jdj8bus1@4ax.com...
On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:28:54 -1000, "G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns98D36CFF428F2vicman@216.196.97.142...
One of the many good reasons why the death penalty should be put to death.
I've tried to make that point to death penalty proponents time and
time again. Their usual response? "It's a small price to pay to rid
society of the real criminals." Fucking idiots.
Ask them if they would want to be the ones to "pay that price".
Are you willing to stop traveling in a car in order to avoid any
possibility of dying in a car accident?
--
"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to using Windows
NT for mission-critical applications." --Devin L. Ganger
.
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| User: "Smiler" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
11 Feb 2007 09:05:50 PM |
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"Tapio Erola" <txr@localhost.localdomain> wrote in message
news:m31wkwlwg4.fsf@localhost.localdomain...
"Smiler" <Smiler@Joe.King.com> writes:
"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:o0qss21k1db5je9lgg7i70qa71jdj8bus1@4ax.com...
On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:28:54 -1000, "G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com>
wrote:
"Uncle Vic" <address@withheld.com> wrote in message
news:Xns98D36CFF428F2vicman@216.196.97.142...
One of the many good reasons why the death penalty should be put to
death.
I've tried to make that point to death penalty proponents time and
time again. Their usual response? "It's a small price to pay to rid
society of the real criminals." Fucking idiots.
Ask them if they would want to be the ones to "pay that price".
Are you willing to stop traveling in a car in order to avoid any
possibility of dying in a car accident?
No one is forcing me to travel by car.
It's entirely my own choice.
Can you show us an example of an innocent person choosing to be executed?
Life imprisonment would still "rid society of the real criminals" without
danger to the wrongly accused.
As shown in the OP, you can always compensate ($$$$) the wrongly jailed, if
they are still alive.
It's a bit more difficult to compensate the wrongly executed, unless you
know of a way to bring them back to life?
Smiler,
The godless one
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| User: "David Schwartz" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
12 Feb 2007 06:13:35 AM |
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On Feb 11, 7:05 pm, "Smiler" <Smi...@Joe.King.com> wrote:
Are you willing to stop traveling in a car in order to avoid any
possibility of dying in a car accident?
No one is forcing me to travel by car.
It's entirely my own choice.
That's really not a fair comparison.
You are taxed to pay for road construction and maintenance whether you
wish to travel over the roads or not. This reduces the marginal cost
of travelling by car over roads compared to other forms of travel.
This is money taken from you over which you have no control.
Almost all force is really an adjustment of marginal cost. For
example, consider the quintessential example of force, I point a gun
at your head and say, "give me your money or I'll shoot". This doesn't
literally compel you to give me your money, it simply adjusts the
costs of not giving me your money to a much higher level, such that it
becomes the best choice.
Perhaps had all this tax money not been put into roads, some much
safer method of transportation would be popular now. Perhaps we'd all
have personal airplanes. Perhaps they'd be safer, perhaps they'd be
more dangerous.
But it's quite reasonable to argue that government subsidy of roads
may be killing dozens of innocent people.
It's a bit more difficult to compensate the wrongly executed,
unless you know of a way to bring them back to life?
It's just a fact that when you make big decisions, every choice may
result in innocent people dying. Not executing people could result in
deaths of the innocent as well. And more or fewer innocent deaths is
not the issue, two innocent deaths are incomparable.
Suppose we don't execute someone and it later turns out that they are
innocent. Had we executed them, we would have executed an innocent
man. Later, they get very angry and kill someone. That's an innocent
life lost because of our failure to execute someone. So every decision
will kill innocent people. And a decision is not right just because it
lowers that number.
I think it's naive and whimsical to say that just the fact that we
might kill an innocent person is reason enough to eliminate the death
penalty.
(Although I think there are a *lot* of good arguments against it. Not
so much in principle but in how it's actually being implemented in the
United States.)
DS
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| User: "Ben Kaufman" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
12 Feb 2007 07:58:09 AM |
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On 12 Feb 2007 04:13:35 -0800, "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
It's just a fact that when you make big decisions, every choice may
result in innocent people dying. Not executing people could result in
deaths of the innocent as well. And more or fewer innocent deaths is
not the issue, two innocent deaths are incomparable.
Suppose we don't execute someone and it later turns out that they are
innocent. Had we executed them, we would have executed an innocent
man. Later, they get very angry and kill someone. That's an innocent
life lost because of our failure to execute someone. So every decision
will kill innocent people. And a decision is not right just because it
lowers that number.
This is erroneous. If, as you say that two innocent deaths are incomparable
then neither is the comparison of freeing an innocent versus what they might do
later in life. Especially since you can't show a tendency of innocents turning
into murderers due to their ordeal.
I think it's naive and whimsical to say that just the fact that we
might kill an innocent person is reason enough to eliminate the death
penalty.
It's not a question of "might," they have killed innocent people.
(Although I think there are a *lot* of good arguments against it. Not
so much in principle but in how it's actually being implemented in the
United States.)
DS
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| User: "David Schwartz" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
12 Feb 2007 08:24:14 AM |
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On Feb 12, 5:58 am, Ben Kaufman <spaXm-mXe-anXd-paXy-5000-
doll...@pobox.com> wrote:
This is erroneous. If, as you say that two innocent deaths are incomparable
then neither is the comparison of freeing an innocent versus what they might do
later in life. Especially since you can't show a tendency of innocents turning
into murderers due to their ordeal.
I agree. The type of calculus being attempted here is just invalid.
A person who saves ten people who otherwise would have died doesn't
get a free pass to kill someone. The lives are individual and
incomparable.
I think it's naive and whimsical to say that just the fact that we
might kill an innocent person is reason enough to eliminate the death
penalty.
It's not a question of "might," they have killed innocent people.
I don't think that changes anything. The decision to drive cars has
killed innocent people who didn't choose to drive cars or have
anything to do with cars. That doesn't make it wrong to decide to
drive cars.
Again, it's naive and whimsical to say that the death penalty is wrong
just because having it assures that we will kill some innocent people.
Having public roads assures that we will kill some innocent people.
(In neither case do we knowingly, deliberately kill any particular
innocent person.)
DS
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| User: "Smiler" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
12 Feb 2007 09:29:24 PM |
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"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote in message
news:1171290254.565309.319880@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 12, 5:58 am, Ben Kaufman <spaXm-mXe-anXd-paXy-5000-
doll...@pobox.com> wrote:
This is erroneous. If, as you say that two innocent deaths are
incomparable
then neither is the comparison of freeing an innocent versus what they
might do
later in life. Especially since you can't show a tendency of innocents
turning
into murderers due to their ordeal.
I agree. The type of calculus being attempted here is just invalid.
A person who saves ten people who otherwise would have died doesn't
get a free pass to kill someone. The lives are individual and
incomparable.
I think it's naive and whimsical to say that just the fact that we
might kill an innocent person is reason enough to eliminate the death
penalty.
It's not a question of "might," they have killed innocent people.
I don't think that changes anything. The decision to drive cars has
killed innocent people who didn't choose to drive cars or have
anything to do with cars. That doesn't make it wrong to decide to
drive cars.
Again, it's naive and whimsical to say that the death penalty is wrong
just because having it assures that we will kill some innocent people.
Having public roads assures that we will kill some innocent people.
(In neither case do we knowingly, deliberately kill any particular
innocent person.)
You can't do much about road deaths unless you ban the motor car.
The price society would pay for that ban would be beyond calculation.
Society would be thrown back into the19th century.
You can stop executing innocent people without any cost to society.
Here, in the UK, capital punishment was banned in the 1960s.
The murder rate (pro rata) is about one eighth of that in the USA, so
capital punishment has no effect on the murder rate.
If the execution of one innocent person is avoided by banning capital
punishment, isn't that a good thing?
Capital punishment is STATE SANCTIONED murder.
Smiler,
The godless one
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| User: "David Schwartz" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
13 Feb 2007 06:27:25 PM |
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On Feb 12, 7:29 pm, "Smiler" <Smi...@Joe.King.com> wrote:
Again, it's naive and whimsical to say that the death penalty is wrong
just because having it assures that we will kill some innocent people.
Having public roads assures that we will kill some innocent people.
(In neither case do we knowingly, deliberately kill any particular
innocent person.)
You can't do much about road deaths unless you ban the motor car.
The price society would pay for that ban would be beyond calculation.
Society would be thrown back into the19th century.
You can stop executing innocent people without any cost to society.
Right. My point is that it's a cost versus benefit analysis. The death
penalty is not automatically wrong just because it assures some
innocent people will die.
Here, in the UK, capital punishment was banned in the 1960s.
The murder rate (pro rata) is about one eighth of that in the USA, so
capital punishment has no effect on the murder rate.
I believe that capital punishment has little to no effect on the
murder rate, but your comparison of murder rates in the UK versus
murder rates in the USA doesn't really show anything. The US and the
UK differ in many ways that are far more significant than just capital
punishment. To show the absurdity of the comparison, do you think it
shows that if we banned capital punishment, our murder rate would drop
to one-eight what it is now? Of course not.
If the execution of one innocent person is avoided by banning capital
punishment, isn't that a good thing?
Sure that's a good thing. But the deaths of many innocent people would
be avoided by banning automobiles. Those avoided deaths are certainly
good things, but that's not the end of the reasoning.
Capital punishment is STATE SANCTIONED murder.
Not by the usual definition of "murder" which requires an *unlawful*
intentional killing. If you shoot someone in self-defense, is that
murder? It's also an intentional killing of another human being.
DS
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| User: "towelie" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
14 Feb 2007 03:36:20 AM |
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David Schwartz wrote:
On Feb 12, 7:29 pm, "Smiler" <Smi...@Joe.King.com> wrote:
Again, it's naive and whimsical to say that the death penalty is
wrong just because having it assures that we will kill some
innocent people. Having public roads assures that we will kill some
innocent people. (In neither case do we knowingly, deliberately
kill any particular innocent person.)
You can't do much about road deaths unless you ban the motor car.
The price society would pay for that ban would be beyond calculation.
Society would be thrown back into the19th century.
You can stop executing innocent people without any cost to society.
Right. My point is that it's a cost versus benefit analysis. The death
penalty is not automatically wrong just because it assures some
innocent people will die.
Wrong. It's wrong when one innocent person dies.
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| User: "David Schwartz" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
17 Feb 2007 07:54:41 AM |
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On Feb 14, 1:36 am, "towelie" <bugoNOS...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Wrong. It's wrong when one innocent person dies.
For some meaningless definition of wrong. Yes, it's wrong if a child
gets cholera and dies. Hurricanes are wrong.
DS
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| User: "towelie" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
17 Feb 2007 09:56:47 PM |
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David Schwartz wrote:
On Feb 14, 1:36 am, "towelie" <bugoNOS...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Wrong. It's wrong when one innocent person dies.
For some meaningless definition of wrong. Yes, it's wrong if a child
gets cholera and dies. Hurricanes are wrong.
Hurricanes cannot be prevented. Executions can.
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| User: "David Schwartz" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
19 Feb 2007 07:45:21 PM |
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On Feb 17, 7:56 pm, "towelie" <bugoNOS...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hurricanes cannot be prevented. Executions can.
We aren't trying to prevent hurricans, we are trying to prevent people
from dying form hurricanes. We can simply move everyone to areas where
the risk of hurricane is near zero.
If a single innocent death is too many, then everyone should/must move
to areas that are free from hurricane risk. Of course this may put
them at increased risk of earthquakes. So maybe we all have to live
underground.
Again, the idea that because something will definitely kill a few
innocent people that means that something is automatically beyond
consideration is naive and silly.
DS
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
18 Feb 2007 02:45:34 PM |
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On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 21:56:47 -0600, "towelie" <bugoNOSPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
David Schwartz wrote:
On Feb 14, 1:36 am, "towelie" <bugoNOS...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Wrong. It's wrong when one innocent person dies.
For some meaningless definition of wrong. Yes, it's wrong if a child
gets cholera and dies. Hurricanes are wrong.
Hurricanes cannot be prevented. Executions can.
<shakes head in disbelief> It's amazing the depths of silliness,
illogic and just plain stupidity to which a death penalty supporter
will resort to avoid having to admit there's no logical justification
for capital punishment, isn't it? <G>
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
24 Feb 2007 10:19:03 AM |
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On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 15:45:34 -0500, John Baker <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote
in alt.atheism
On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 21:56:47 -0600, "towelie" <bugoNOSPAM@hotmail.com>
wrote:
David Schwartz wrote:
On Feb 14, 1:36 am, "towelie" <bugoNOS...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Wrong. It's wrong when one innocent person dies.
For some meaningless definition of wrong. Yes, it's wrong if a child
gets cholera and dies. Hurricanes are wrong.
Hurricanes cannot be prevented. Executions can.
<shakes head in disbelief> It's amazing the depths of silliness,
illogic and just plain stupidity to which a death penalty supporter
will resort to avoid having to admit there's no logical justification
for capital punishment, isn't it? <G>
Fine. Bust them for bank robbing, find them guilty and give them a
death sentence.
After all, "Right. My {David Schwartz} point is that it's a cost versus
benefit analysis. The death penalty is not automatically wrong just
because it assures some innocent people will die."
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
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| User: "Tim McGaughy" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
25 Feb 2007 10:52:16 PM |
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in article 1171720481.305066.321370@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, David
Schwartz at wrote on 2/17/07 7:54 AM:
On Feb 14, 1:36 am, "towelie" <bugoNOS...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Wrong. It's wrong when one innocent person dies.
For some meaningless definition of wrong. Yes, it's wrong if a child
gets cholera and dies. Hurricanes are wrong.
Our justice system is based on the STATED idea that it is better to let ten
guilty men go free than to punish one innocent man.
In other words, if one innocent man dies, it's time to fix our methods of
justice.
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| User: "David Schwartz" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
26 Feb 2007 09:30:44 AM |
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On Feb 25, 8:52 pm, Tim McGaughy <tee...@ispwest.com> wrote:
Our justice system is based on the STATED idea that it is better to let ten
guilty men go free than to punish one innocent man.
In other words, if one innocent man dies, it's time to fix our methods of
justice.
If you really mean that 10-to-1 ratio, then you would have to show
that capital punishment kills at least 1/10th innocent people. If you
mean that the 10-to-1 is arbitrary, then you could use this argument
against our entire criminal justice system since condemning some
innocent people is inevitable in any system.
See my various posts where I talk about "naive and quaint" notions of
justice completely divorced from reality.
DS
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| User: "Ben Kaufman" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
26 Feb 2007 10:45:56 AM |
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On 26 Feb 2007 07:30:44 -0800, "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:
On Feb 25, 8:52 pm, Tim McGaughy <tee...@ispwest.com> wrote:
Our justice system is based on the STATED idea that it is better to let ten
guilty men go free than to punish one innocent man.
In other words, if one innocent man dies, it's time to fix our methods of
justice.
If you really mean that 10-to-1 ratio, then you would have to show
that capital punishment kills at least 1/10th innocent people. If you
mean that the 10-to-1 is arbitrary, then you could use this argument
against our entire criminal justice system since condemning some
innocent people is inevitable in any system.
See my various posts where I talk about "naive and quaint" notions of
justice completely divorced from reality.
DS
Did you ever respond to my previous post where I point out that the particular
solution is dependent upon the model, not the operations theory?
Do you agree there is a clear difference in outcome between a model for the
transportation system (you used as your example) which answer cannot be zero
deaths (because no transportation could occur), versus one where zero deaths is
possible without halting punishment (as evidenced by many other countries that
do not execute).
Ben
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| User: "David Schwartz" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
26 Feb 2007 01:57:28 PM |
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On Feb 26, 8:45 am, Ben Kaufman <spaXm-mXe-anXd-paXy-5000-
doll...@pobox.com> wrote:
Do you agree there is a clear difference in outcome between a model for the
transportation system (you used as your example) which answer cannot be zero
deaths (because no transportation could occur), versus one where zero deaths
is
possible without halting punishment (as evidenced by many other countries
that
do not execute).
Of course I don't agree with that, that's sheer insanity. That's a
perfect example of the craziness I'm arguing *against*.
Just as any transportation system inevitably involves some number of
accidental innocent deaths, so does any penal system. There will be
fights, fires, and you might even have to *transport* a prisoner from
one place to another. Any penal system will involves some number of
accidental, tragic deaths of innocent people.
DS
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| User: "Smiler" |
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| Title: Re: Ex-inmate near execution awarded $14 million |
26 Feb 2007 07:10:47 PM |
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"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote in message
news:1172519848.603983.12670@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 26, 8:45 am, Ben Kaufman <spaXm-mXe-anXd-paXy-5000-
doll...@pobox.com> wrote:
Do you agree there is a clear difference in outcome between a model for
the
transportation system (you used as your example) which answer cannot be
zero
deaths (because no transportation could occur), versus one where zero
deaths
is
possible without halting punishment (as evidenced by many other countries
that
do not execute).
Of course I don't agree with that, that's sheer insanity. That's a
perfect example of the craziness I'm arguing *against*.
Just as any transportation system inevitably involves some number of
accidental innocent deaths, so does any penal system. There will be
fights, fires, and you might even have to *transport* a prisoner from
one place to another. Any penal system will involves some number of
accidental, tragic deaths of innocent people.
You seem to be making the argument that we've all got to die sometime, which
of course is true.
But there's a vast difference between accidental/natural deaths and
intentional state sanctioned murder.
You still haven't answered the question.
If you were an innocent person, wrongly convicted, would you willingly be
executed to 'uphold' the system?
Smiler,
The godless one
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