"Truth Hunter" <> wrote in message...
Examining Jesus's Crucifixion

GOD impregnates a virgin with his SON, who is also HIMSELF...or
something. This person is Jesus. Jesus proceeds to walk around, telling
people that he's the son of God and instructing them to do good works.
Eventually, he gets sentenced to death. But God is tricky: His son's
death was in his plans all along! By dying, Jesus cleanses us of our
sins.

You make the same mistake as the religionists do.

Jesus did not walk around saying he was the Son of God.
In Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus refers to himself as the Son of man 55
times and never calls himslef the Son of God.
Only in John does Jesus say he is the Son of God. But even John has Jesus
using the term Son of Man 10 times to four times for Son of God.

John also tells us that we are all sons of God.

But when was the last time you heard a preacher use Son of Man.

How many posts on here, continually use Son of God, and never mention Son
of
Man??

Interesting.

"Truth Hunter" <> wrote in message...
Examining Jesus's Crucifixion

GOD impregnates a virgin with his SON, who is also HIMSELF...or
something. This person is Jesus. Jesus proceeds to walk around, telling
people that he's the son of God and instructing them to do good works.
Eventually, he gets sentenced to death. But God is tricky: His son's
death was in his plans all along! By dying, Jesus cleanses us of our
sins.

You make the same mistake as the religionists do.

Jesus did not walk around saying he was the Son of God.
In Matthew, Mark and Luke, Jesus refers to himself as the Son of man 55
times and never calls himslef the Son of God.
Only in John does Jesus say he is the Son of God. But even John has Jesus
using the term Son of Man 10 times to four times for Son of God.

John also tells us that we are all sons of God.

But when was the last time you heard a preacher use Son of Man.

How many posts on here, continually use Son of God, and never mention Son
of
Man??

Interesting.

"Truth Hunter" <hunter1234222@yahoo.com> wrote

-God exists and is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent.
-All humans are inherently sinful and so do not deserve heaven (I have
an argument against this, but that's for another topic).
-The Bible is the true inerrant word of God.

Now, let's get started.

So, here God is. He's created humanity and loves each human being, but
they are all sinful, and so he cannot let them into heaven. He needs to
do something drastic. So what does he do?

Sure, that's the issue.

Well, he doesn't do anything for millions of years (unless you're a
YEC...then it's only for thousands of years). Finally, he decides that
maybe he should actually get to work trying to remove humanity's sins.

Now, we have to remember that God is omnipotent. He has literally an
infinite number of possibilities that he can do to save humanity from
Hell. He could, for example, just use his omnipotent powers and let all
humans into heaven anyway. He could snap his almighty fingers and
cleanse our sins that way. He could talk to many different people, tell
them the good news, and grant them powers to convert their fellow
humans. There are, of course, a multitude of other options for God. So
what does God choose?

Sure, there are lots of possibilities.

GOD impregnates a virgin with his SON, who is also HIMSELF...or
something. This person is Jesus. Jesus proceeds to walk around, telling
people that he's the son of God and instructing them to do good works.

So God enters the creation as a man. He becomes one of the characters.

Eventually, he gets sentenced to death. But God is tricky: His son's
death was in his plans all along! By dying, Jesus cleanses us of our
sins.

And somehow this man who is God has got to take away the sins of the world.
So He does that by dying.

Wait...what? What was that? How exactly did this sin-cleansing process
work? Did Jesus use his Mystical God Powers to take in all of our sins,
and then dying, thus having our sins die with him? How exactly does
that work? Did Jesus "pay the price" for our sins by dying? Or was it
something else? I'm not sure, and I dont' think any Christian is,
either.

We don't know. There are lots of "theories of atonement" in Christian
theology.

But, whatever. So, Jesus dies, and we're all saved, right? Wrong.
Apparently, in order to be saved, a person has to believe that this all
happened. Why? Well, I'm not sure. Supposedly, God could use his
omnipotence to just make everyone be saved after Jesus died, but he
instead set up an extremely arbitrary rule (or rules, depending on
which denomination of Christianity you follow).

God doesn't necessarily do everything. If a child has no opportunity to go
to school, then it is effectively impossible for him to get to university.
If a benevolent uncle pays the school fees, the child now has a reasonable
chance, but he's still got to put in many hours of lessons and homework.

So, what now? We have an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God who
wants all humans to be saved. First, he doesn't do anything for untold
numbers of years, thus dooming many many people to hell who were just
unlucky enough to be born before the year 0. He takes an extremely
roundabout path to achieve his goals of saving humanity, and by
comparing it to other options, it is clearly inferior, especially
considering the fact that you have to believe Jesus is the son of God
to actually be able to get into heaven.

You say it is "clearly inferior". Jesus could have instituted a guerilla
campaign against the Romans. Maybe He would have driven them from Palestine.
But would that have been better?

Oh yeah, and the entire story doesn't really make much sense.

If you are determined not to see any sense in it, no it won't. We mustn't
assume that, as humans, we can readily understand the reasons behind
everthing that God does.

There are many theories of the atonement which have
exercised the best minds for some two thousand years.
If you read the gospel, you will see that there are three women at the foot
of the cross. All are named Mary. What do you think is going on here?

"Truth Hunter" <hunter1234222@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1122747515.528150.133780@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Examining Jesus's Crucifixion

I never fully understood: Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection as a way
to cleanse humanity of its sins. I will not attempt a historical
examination of this. This will be purely logical.

For the purposes of this examination, the following things will be
assumed. If you do not believe these things, this topic does not apply
to you.
-God exists and is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent.
-All humans are inherently sinful and so do not deserve heaven (I have
an argument against this, but that's for another topic).
-The Bible is the true inerrant word of God.

[If I don't believe in what things, this topic is not for me?
1. God exists and is Omni-whatever is not a cohherent statement.
What's to believe or not believe?
2. All humans inherently sinful, etc. but you have an argument against it,
etc.
What part of that is a thing you are referring to?
3. The Bible is the inerrant Word of God.
How can one either believe or disbelieve a nosensical statement?]

Now, let's get started.

[You mean we weren't started yet?]

"Truth Hunter" <hunter1234222@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1122747515.528150.133780@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Examining Jesus's Crucifixion

I never fully understood: Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection as a way
to cleanse humanity of its sins. I will not attempt a historical
examination of this. This will be purely logical.

For the purposes of this examination, the following things will be
assumed. If you do not believe these things, this topic does not apply
to you.

Then please do not post more of that mind rot to alt.atheism.

BTW; your screen name is a bald faced lie. You are definately no truth
hunter.

It is a recurrent theme of Scripture that both Deity and divine purpose
transcend human intellect (Job 11:7; Isa. 55:9; Rom. 11:33, etc.).

Jesus and Paul both deal at length with mankind's resultant dilemma in
relating to the divine. In order to meaningfully comprehend divine
cause and Being (thus "seeing" the "kingdom of God," John 3:5; cf.
14:17), Jesus emphasizes the need for a "new birth" whereby one enters
the realm of spiritual reality (John ch. 3).

In relation to this "rebirth," Paul stresses the role of the Holy
Spirit, particularly in terms of an enlightenment whereby, transcending
the physical senses, one comes into an experiential realization of
divine grace, cause and meaning (I Cor. 1:27- 2:16).

Is all necessarily understood? No. In an ultimate sense, and relative
to the human intellect, God's ways remain "beyond finding out" (Rom.
11:33).

Faith's dynamic, however, lies in the fact that by means of God's
Spirit both He and His ways may be encountered and experientially
known.

Burl Ratzsch
http://burlratzsch.blogspot.com/

It is a recurrent theme of Scripture that both Deity and divine purpose
transcend human intellect (Job 11:7; Isa. 55:9; Rom. 11:33, etc.).

Jesus and Paul both deal at length with mankind's resultant dilemma in
relating to the divine. In order to meaningfully comprehend divine
cause and Being (thus "seeing" the "kingdom of God," John 3:5; cf.
14:17), Jesus emphasizes the need for a "new birth" whereby one enters
the realm of spiritual reality (John ch. 3).

In relation to this "rebirth," Paul stresses the role of the Holy
Spirit, particularly in terms of an enlightenment whereby, transcending
the physical senses, one comes into an experiential realization of
divine grace, cause and meaning (I Cor. 1:27- 2:16).

Is all necessarily understood? No. In an ultimate sense, and relative
to the human intellect, God's ways remain "beyond finding out" (Rom.
11:33).

Faith's dynamic, however, lies in the fact that by means of God's
Spirit both He and His ways may be encountered and experientially
known.

Burl Ratzsch
http://burlratzsch.blogspot.com/

Faith's dynamic, however, lies in the fact that by means of God's
Spirit both He and His ways may be encountered and experientially
known.

Burl Ratzsch

On 30 Jul 2005 11:18:35 -0700, "Truth Hunter"
<hunter1234222@yahoo.com> wrote:

So, what now? We have an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God who
wants all humans to be saved. First, he doesn't do anything for untold
numbers of years, thus dooming many many people to hell who were just
unlucky enough to be born before the year 0. He takes an extremely
roundabout path to achieve his goals of saving humanity, and by
comparing it to other options, it is clearly inferior, especially
considering the fact that you have to believe Jesus is the son of God
to actually be able to get into heaven.

Guess what? Virtually none of the "Christian" regulars on this group
will actually pay any attention to your story. They have nothing to
say about it, other than condescending remarks like "Poor Dan, he
cannot understand 'spiritual things' because he is JUST a natural
man." Or they will rebuke you for even questioning such a "plan of
salvation", while never admitting that they do not understand it
themselves. (Catholics just explain it away by calling it a
"mystery.")

The rest will ignore you or attack you...it seems to be the easy way
out for non-thinking "Christians" who can't admit that they have no
answer. And, it seems to be their "pattern."