| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Gregor K." |
| Date: |
25 Oct 2003 06:50:50 AM |
| Object: |
Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
I grew up in a non-Christian home. My father is an atheist and my
mother was a backslidden Christian, due mostly to marrying my father I
suspect. Anyway, I grew up an atheist. I never went to Church or
Sunday school, stayed in bed till lunch-time on Sundays, and hated
Christians who I thought were all stupid.
I spent the next decade working at achieving that goal and also trying
to find a meaning for my life. I went through a stage of fads, where I
would be fanatically interested in some subject, and then drop it when
I found that it did little or nothing to feed the hunger in my soul. I
didn't have many friends at high school, and those I did associate
with decided I was the person most likely to initiate a global
holocaust.
I dropped out of school after failing my University Entrance exams,
and got a job as a chemistry technician with the New Zealand
Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. With the money came
independence. I left home, was living in a house by myself, going to a
job where I spoke to no-one, and going to night school at the local
polytechnic where I did the same. I had achieved my goal: my life was
empty of any emotions or meaningful contact with others. - It sucked.
The second year I was at night school I noticed a guy in my class was
trying to talk to me. He'd been trying for the previous year as well,
but I was too messed up to even notice. Luckily he was the patient
type. He was a Christian and he invited me to go to an evangelistic
outreach with him. I nearly punched him out. After that he tried just
to be my friend and not try any heavy evangelism on me.
As I grew to trust him we started talking about life and stuff like
that. I realized that a lot of what I had been told about Christians
when I was growing up was not true. I started asking him questions
about his beliefs and he answered them, but had the sense not to push
it any further.
My Mother has since reclaimed her faith so my family is now divided
down the middle; my mother and I are Christians, my father and brother
are atheists. Becoming a Christian didn't solve my problems, but it
helped me to understand them and it opened the way for God to start
healing me from my past.
After a long struggle and a fair bit of soul-searching I quit my job
and applied for the Youth Intern position at my local Church. I have
switched from doing a Diploma of Biblical Studies to doing a Ministry
Internship Diploma, which is a much more practical course. I am trying
to do less studying of God and more following him. So far I am
enjoying it, but I know following God is a lifetime journey. I still
have a long way to go.
As an aside, my friend from polytech is the most effective evangelist
I have ever met. He has never been to Bible College or had any formal
training and he says I now know far more theology than he does. But he
has a love for God that still amazes me.
Credit goes to http://www.dtl.org/dtl/article/ex-atheist.htm. and to
the writer of the article, Darren "Daz" Gedye
.
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| User: "Dave H." |
|
| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
25 Oct 2003 09:29:31 AM |
|
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"Gregor K." <gregor@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:82afdec.0310250350.4ee14367@posting.google.com...
<SNIP>
I found that it did little or nothing to feed the hunger in my soul. I
didn't have many friends at high school, and those I did associate
with decided I was the person most likely to initiate a global
holocaust.
This sounds like what a theist must think goes on behind the eyes of an
atheist. Our soul *must be hungry because there is no gawd, and since we're
so obviously evil we just *have to relate to the causing global holocaust
thing.
I dropped out of school after failing my University Entrance exams,
and got a job as a chemistry technician with the New Zealand
Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. With the money came
independence. I left home, was living in a house by myself, going to a
job where I spoke to no-one, and going to night school at the local
polytechnic where I did the same. I had achieved my goal: my life was
empty of any emotions or meaningful contact with others. - It sucked.
Another attempt of a theist stating what he/she thinks *must be what an
atheist feels. Life is great! I acheived my goals! But no gawd means it all
had to suck.
The second year I was at night school I noticed a guy in my class was
trying to talk to me. He'd been trying for the previous year as well,
but I was too messed up to even notice. Luckily he was the patient
type. He was a Christian and he invited me to go to an evangelistic
outreach with him. I nearly punched him out. After that he tried just
to be my friend and not try any heavy evangelism on me.
Sounds like a typical embellishment by a freekin theist talking about
something he/she knows nothing about.
I *notice when someone talks to me, even if they are saying something
about the mothballs down on main street that are eating the remains of Carl
Sagan.
And *again with the "no gawd, gotta be messed up" stuff.
As I grew to trust him we started talking about life and stuff like
that. I realized that a lot of what I had been told about Christians
when I was growing up was not true. I started asking him questions
about his beliefs and he answered them, but had the sense not to push
it any further.
My Mother has since reclaimed her faith so my family is now divided
down the middle; my mother and I are Christians, my father and brother
are atheists. Becoming a Christian didn't solve my problems, but it
helped me to understand them and it opened the way for God to start
healing me from my past.
Wait a minute!
You *were an atheist, but it took gawd to sprinkle his dust on you to
understand atheism?
After a long struggle and a fair bit of soul-searching I quit my job
and applied for the Youth Intern position at my local Church. I have
switched from doing a Diploma of Biblical Studies to doing a Ministry
Internship Diploma, which is a much more practical course. I am trying
to do less studying of God and more following him. So far I am
enjoying it, but I know following God is a lifetime journey. I still
have a long way to go.
Yup, definately the Xian way of thinking: Less studying, and more
following.
*That'll* help you understand things more clearly, won't it?
As an aside, my friend from polytech is the most effective evangelist
I have ever met. He has never been to Bible College or had any formal
training and he says I now know far more theology than he does. But he
has a love for God that still amazes me.
An Xian would just *have to be the best kind gawd would want if he can
convert an atheist, right? Naturally you would cook up this character as
being the most effective.
So, he has a love for gawd that amazes you, eh? Apparently you still
have some issues if your love isn't as good as the average bear.
Credit goes to http://www.dtl.org/dtl/article/ex-atheist.htm. and to
the writer of the article, Darren "Daz" Gedye
What a totally cooked up bucket of warm crap!
.
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| User: "Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A." |
|
| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
25 Oct 2003 10:53:06 PM |
|
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Dave H. wrote:
"Gregor K." <gregor@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:82afdec.0310250350.4ee14367@posting.google.com..
<SNIP>
I found that it did little or nothing to feed the hunger in my soul. I
didn't have many friends at high school, and those I did associate
with decided I was the person most likely to initiate a global
holocaust.
This sounds like what a theist must think goes on behind the eyes of an
atheist. Our soul *must be hungry because there is no gawd, and since we're
so obviously evil we just *have to relate to the causing global holocaust
thing.
I dropped out of school after failing my University Entrance exams,
and got a job as a chemistry technician with the New Zealand
Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. With the money came
independence. I left home, was living in a house by myself, going to a
job where I spoke to no-one, and going to night school at the local
polytechnic where I did the same. I had achieved my goal: my life was
empty of any emotions or meaningful contact with others. - It sucked.
Another attempt of a theist stating what he/she thinks *must be what an
atheist feels. Life is great! I acheived my goals! But no gawd means it all
had to suck.
Clinical depression. Prozac would have saved him from xianity. But, alas.
You see Gregor's ruined life before your very eyes.
.
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| User: "Alien Antichrist" |
|
| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
25 Oct 2003 07:50:38 AM |
|
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"Gregor K." <gregor@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:82afdec.0310250350.4ee14367@posting.google.com...
I grew up in a non-Christian home. My father is an atheist and my
mother was a backslidden Christian, due mostly to marrying my father I
suspect. Anyway, I grew up an atheist. I never went to Church or
Sunday school, stayed in bed till lunch-time on Sundays, and hated
Christians who I thought were all stupid.
You don't have to be dumb to be wrong.
I spent the next decade working at achieving that goal and also trying
to find a meaning for my life. I went through a stage of fads, where I
would be fanatically interested in some subject, and then drop it when
I found that it did little or nothing to feed the hunger in my soul. I
didn't have many friends at high school, and those I did associate
with decided I was the person most likely to initiate a global
holocaust.
Maybe they were just ignorant.
I dropped out of school after failing my University Entrance exams,
and got a job as a chemistry technician with the New Zealand
Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. With the money came
independence. I left home, was living in a house by myself, going to a
job where I spoke to no-one, and going to night school at the local
polytechnic where I did the same. I had achieved my goal: my life was
empty of any emotions or meaningful contact with others. - It sucked.
The second year I was at night school I noticed a guy in my class was
trying to talk to me. He'd been trying for the previous year as well,
but I was too messed up to even notice. Luckily he was the patient
type. He was a Christian and he invited me to go to an evangelistic
outreach with him. I nearly punched him out. After that he tried just
to be my friend and not try any heavy evangelism on me.
As I grew to trust him we started talking about life and stuff like
that. I realized that a lot of what I had been told about Christians
when I was growing up was not true. I started asking him questions
about his beliefs and he answered them, but had the sense not to push
it any further.
My Mother has since reclaimed her faith so my family is now divided
down the middle; my mother and I are Christians, my father and brother
are atheists. Becoming a Christian didn't solve my problems, but it
helped me to understand them and it opened the way for God to start
healing me from my past.
After a long struggle and a fair bit of soul-searching I quit my job
and applied for the Youth Intern position at my local Church. I have
switched from doing a Diploma of Biblical Studies to doing a Ministry
Internship Diploma, which is a much more practical course. I am trying
to do less studying of God and more following him. So far I am
enjoying it, but I know following God is a lifetime journey. I still
have a long way to go.
How can you follow someone, if you don't know what they want from you?
As an aside, my friend from polytech is the most effective evangelist
I have ever met. He has never been to Bible College or had any formal
training and he says I now know far more theology than he does. But he
has a love for God that still amazes me.
Credit goes to http://www.dtl.org/dtl/article/ex-atheist.htm. and to
the writer of the article, Darren "Daz" Gedye
.
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| User: "Caleb The Profit" |
|
| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
25 Oct 2003 08:35:43 AM |
|
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"Gregor K." <gregor@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:82afdec.0310250350.4ee14367@posting.google.com...
I grew up in a non-Christian home. My father is an atheist and my
mother was a backslidden Christian, due mostly to marrying my father I
suspect. Anyway, I grew up an atheist. I never went to Church or
Sunday school, stayed in bed till lunch-time on Sundays, and hated
Christians who I thought were all stupid.
I spent the next decade working at achieving that goal and also trying
to find a meaning for my life. I went through a stage of fads, where I
would be fanatically interested in some subject, and then drop it when
I found that it did little or nothing to feed the hunger in my soul. I
didn't have many friends at high school, and those I did associate
with decided I was the person most likely to initiate a global
holocaust.
I dropped out of school after failing my University Entrance exams,
and got a job as a chemistry technician with the New Zealand
Department of Scientific and Industrial Research. With the money came
independence. I left home, was living in a house by myself, going to a
job where I spoke to no-one, and going to night school at the local
polytechnic where I did the same. I had achieved my goal: my life was
empty of any emotions or meaningful contact with others. - It sucked.
The second year I was at night school I noticed a guy in my class was
trying to talk to me. He'd been trying for the previous year as well,
but I was too messed up to even notice. Luckily he was the patient
type. He was a Christian and he invited me to go to an evangelistic
outreach with him. I nearly punched him out. After that he tried just
to be my friend and not try any heavy evangelism on me.
As I grew to trust him we started talking about life and stuff like
that. I realized that a lot of what I had been told about Christians
when I was growing up was not true. I started asking him questions
about his beliefs and he answered them, but had the sense not to push
it any further.
My Mother has since reclaimed her faith so my family is now divided
down the middle; my mother and I are Christians, my father and brother
are atheists. Becoming a Christian didn't solve my problems, but it
helped me to understand them and it opened the way for God to start
healing me from my past.
After a long struggle and a fair bit of soul-searching I quit my job
and applied for the Youth Intern position at my local Church. I have
switched from doing a Diploma of Biblical Studies to doing a Ministry
Internship Diploma, which is a much more practical course. I am trying
to do less studying of God and more following him. So far I am
enjoying it, but I know following God is a lifetime journey. I still
have a long way to go.
As an aside, my friend from polytech is the most effective evangelist
I have ever met. He has never been to Bible College or had any formal
training and he says I now know far more theology than he does. But he
has a love for God that still amazes me.
Credit goes to http://www.dtl.org/dtl/article/ex-atheist.htm. and to
the writer of the article, Darren "Daz" Gedye
Gregor - what's the point of this post? Simply a testimony?
Caleb
.
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| User: "Gregor K." |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
25 Oct 2003 02:25:15 PM |
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"Caleb The Profit" <wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> wrote in message news:<-cidnWDqy_hK5geiRVn-uw@comcast.com>...
Gregor - what's the point of this post? Simply a testimony?
Caleb
Just to show you that there are indeed ex-atheists. That should help
you reconsider your stance, at least.
.
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| User: "Caleb The Profit" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
25 Oct 2003 03:10:55 PM |
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"Gregor K." <gregor@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:82afdec.0310251125.18765cd3@posting.google.com...
"Caleb The Profit" <wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:<-cidnWDqy_hK5geiRVn-uw@comcast.com>...
Gregor - what's the point of this post? Simply a testimony?
Caleb
Just to show you that there are indeed ex-atheists. That should help
you reconsider your stance, at least.
OK. Understood. Granted there are ex-Atheists.
I was never an Atheist. I always believed in "god" and was "saved" in my
twenties. I remained a born again Christian for over 20 years. I
deconverted and left born againism and Christianity. I eventually became an
Agnostic, realising that the god of the bible was an invention of the
Israelites.
I'm an Agnostic because I can't say for certain that no Creative
Intelligence exists. But I can say for certain that it isn't biblegod.
Caleb
.
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| User: "Bob White" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
26 Oct 2003 12:13:22 PM |
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"Caleb The Profit" <wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:yKWdnWyJUPoeRQeiRVn-gw@comcast.com...
"Gregor K." <gregor@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:82afdec.0310251125.18765cd3@posting.google.com...
"Caleb The Profit" <wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:<-cidnWDqy_hK5geiRVn-uw@comcast.com>...
Gregor - what's the point of this post? Simply a testimony?
Caleb
Just to show you that there are indeed ex-atheists. That should help
you reconsider your stance, at least.
OK. Understood. Granted there are ex-Atheists.
I was never an Atheist. I always believed in "god" and was "saved" in my
twenties. I remained a born again Christian for over 20 years. I
deconverted and left born againism and Christianity. I eventually became
an
Agnostic, realising that the god of the bible was an invention of the
Israelites.
I'm an Agnostic because I can't say for certain that no Creative
Intelligence exists.
Nobody ever has to prove the denial, since the burden of proof cannot be
shifted to the denial, ever, under any pretext:
"The burden of proof is always on the person asserting something. Shifting
the burden of proof, a special case of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam, is the
fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions
the assertion. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is
true unless proven otherwise."
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html
You are operating under a popular misconception of what agnosticism is. This
is all about religious belief in the existence of gods (theist) and the
absence of it (atheist), or the outright denial and repudiation of it on
principle (agnostic).
Here is the situation:
Theism is characterized by a belief in the existence of gods.
"Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of
gods." -- http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html
Agnostics go one step further to deny and repudiate religious belief in the
existence of gods:
"That which Agnostics deny and repudiate, as immoral, is the contrary
doctrine, that there are propositions which men ought to believe, without
logically satisfactory evidence." -- Thomas Huxley, who coined the term
'agnostic', in his excoriation of the Christian belief, "Agnosticism and
Christianity" http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE5/Agn-X.html
.
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| User: "Steve Mading" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
27 Oct 2003 04:34:39 PM |
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In talk.atheism Bob White <threeball@hotmail.com> wrote:
: "Caleb The Profit" <wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> wrote in message
: news:yKWdnWyJUPoeRQeiRVn-gw@comcast.com...
:> twenties. I remained a born again Christian for over 20 years. I
:> deconverted and left born againism and Christianity. I eventually became
: an
:> Agnostic, realising that the god of the bible was an invention of the
:> Israelites.
:>
:> I'm an Agnostic because I can't say for certain that no Creative
:> Intelligence exists.
[snip]
: You are operating under a popular misconception of what agnosticism is. This
: is all about religious belief in the existence of gods (theist) and the
: absence of it (atheist), or the outright denial and repudiation of it on
: principle (agnostic).
[snip]
Caleb, just be warned, this guy is an ***** who is perfectly
entitled to his opinion, of course, but is very dishonest in
his presentation of definitions to newbies in this group. His
dishonesty is in that he doesn't acknowlege that everyone in
this newsgroup disagrees with his definitions, and he presents
them as if they were the accepted definitions everyone here uses.
He generally does this to new names that appear here. People try
to killfile him, but it doesn't work because he uses temporary
fake names and changes them every few days. (After a while it
becomes easy to tell a post is from him, though - because they
all have the exact same claim in them about the definitions of
agnostic and atheist.)
.
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| User: "Erica" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
28 Oct 2003 01:33:40 AM |
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In article <bnk6hv$bga$4@news.doit.wisc.edu>,
Steve Mading <madings@baladi.bmrb.wisc.edu> wrote:
In talk.atheism Bob White <threeball@hotmail.com> wrote:
: "Caleb The Profit" <wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> wrote in message
: news:yKWdnWyJUPoeRQeiRVn-gw@comcast.com...
:> twenties. I remained a born again Christian for over 20 years. I
:> deconverted and left born againism and Christianity. I eventually became
: an
:> Agnostic, realising that the god of the bible was an invention of the
:> Israelites.
:>
:> I'm an Agnostic because I can't say for certain that no Creative
:> Intelligence exists.
[snip]
: You are operating under a popular misconception of what agnosticism is. This
: is all about religious belief in the existence of gods (theist) and the
: absence of it (atheist), or the outright denial and repudiation of it on
: principle (agnostic).
[snip]
Caleb, just be warned, this guy is an ***** who is perfectly
entitled to his opinion, of course, but is very dishonest in
his presentation of definitions to newbies in this group. His
dishonesty is in that he doesn't acknowlege that everyone in
this newsgroup disagrees with his definitions, and he presents
them as if they were the accepted definitions everyone here uses.
He generally does this to new names that appear here. People try
to killfile him, but it doesn't work because he uses temporary
fake names and changes them every few days. (After a while it
becomes easy to tell a post is from him, though - because they
all have the exact same claim in them about the definitions of
agnostic and atheist.)
This newbie also appreciates the warning. I was beginning to wonder if
I'd steered my agnostic friend wrong in giving him that word. He was so
happy to know that the position he described to me had an actual name.
Even so, one of his co-workers still insists on calling him an atheist,
and then berating him for it. Le sigh.
From dictionary.com:
"Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven
but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist.
The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British
scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena
were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-,
meaning ³without, not,² as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is
related to the Greek word gnsis, ³knowledge,² which was used by early
Christian writers to mean ³higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual
things² hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining
the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as ³Gnostics² a group of his
fellow intellectuals³ists,² as he called themwho had eagerly embraced
various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their
satisfaction. Because he was a ³man without a rag of a label to cover
himself with,² Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first
published use being in 1870."
Erica
--
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
.
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| User: "Steve Mading" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
28 Oct 2003 03:11:47 PM |
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In talk.atheism Erica <scribe53151NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote:
: In article <bnk6hv$bga$4@news.doit.wisc.edu>,
: Steve Mading <madings@baladi.bmrb.wisc.edu> wrote:
:> In talk.atheism Bob White <threeball@hotmail.com> wrote:
:>
:> : "Caleb The Profit" <wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> wrote in message
:> : news:yKWdnWyJUPoeRQeiRVn-gw@comcast.com...
:>
:> :> twenties. I remained a born again Christian for over 20 years. I
:> :> deconverted and left born againism and Christianity. I eventually became
:> : an
:> :> Agnostic, realising that the god of the bible was an invention of the
:> :> Israelites.
:> :>
:> :> I'm an Agnostic because I can't say for certain that no Creative
:> :> Intelligence exists.
:>
:> [snip]
:> : You are operating under a popular misconception of what agnosticism is. This
:> : is all about religious belief in the existence of gods (theist) and the
:> : absence of it (atheist), or the outright denial and repudiation of it on
:> : principle (agnostic).
:> [snip]
:>
:> Caleb, just be warned, this guy is an ***** who is perfectly
:> entitled to his opinion, of course, but is very dishonest in
:> his presentation of definitions to newbies in this group. His
:> dishonesty is in that he doesn't acknowlege that everyone in
:> this newsgroup disagrees with his definitions, and he presents
:> them as if they were the accepted definitions everyone here uses.
:> He generally does this to new names that appear here. People try
:> to killfile him, but it doesn't work because he uses temporary
:> fake names and changes them every few days. (After a while it
:> becomes easy to tell a post is from him, though - because they
:> all have the exact same claim in them about the definitions of
:> agnostic and atheist.)
:>
:>
: This newbie also appreciates the warning. I was beginning to wonder if
: I'd steered my agnostic friend wrong in giving him that word. He was so
: happy to know that the position he described to me had an actual name.
: Even so, one of his co-workers still insists on calling him an atheist,
: and then berating him for it. Le sigh.
The problem is that those words have different definitions for different
people (and if you are "Bob White" - that troll I was talking about,
you have your own definition shared by nobody else, even though you
believe it matches the definition Huxley made when it clearly
doesn't.)
Anyway, two conflicting definitions of agnostic are:
1 - (colloquial) someone who's opinion sits halfway between
theism and atheism.
2 - Someone who says they have no knowlege that God exists
or doesn't, and that such knowlege is impossible to come by.
And, atheism also has conflicting definitions:
1 - someone who believes there isn't a god.
2 - someone who doesn't believe there *is* a god, but may or
may not make the counterclaim that there isn't.
Definition 2 of atheism and definition 2 of agnosticism are
compatable. Someone could easily be both. And the interesting
thing is, if you ask atheists THEMSELVES, you get definition 2,
not definition 1. And if you go back to the source who coined
the term "agnosticism", you get definition 2 there as well, not
definition 1. The definition 1's that I listed (for both atheism
and agnosticism) are more small in scope than the definitions used
by the people who label themselves with those words. It's like
the difference between what a computer programmer means by the
word "hacker" and the popularized mutated defintion that the
public at large is thinking when they use the word "hacker".
The people who first used the word on themselves had a much
wider definition of it than the narrow predjudiced definition
that the public latched on to. And unfortunately the language
is defined by the majority, even when they are ignorant of the
fact that they are using the word differently than it was meant
to be used. So dictionaries end up using the majority definition,
which in the case of atheism and agnosticism, is the definition
used by those who are not themselves atheists or agnostics, so
it's a bit biased. It would be like defining "Africa" as "The
continent where ignorant savages come from." Even if it was
the majority opinion, there would still be something unethical
about using that as the accepted standard definition.
My atheism isn't that different from agnosticism, and this is true
for a LOT of atheists. I don't have a proof that there's no God.
I don't have a belief that there's no God. But, I understand that
this is ONLY because you can't prove negative existence claims like
that. I *also* have no proof there isn't a Santa Claus. I *also*
have no proof there isn't a Tooth Fairy. The only sane default
hyphothesis when asking if a thing exists is to start out assuming
it doesn't until evidence arrives to change from that default.
The reason for this is that if it turns out to be true that something
doesn't exist, you will NEVER find any evidence to that effect.
Nonexistant things don't leave evidence behind. Therefore the
evidence you would see if a thing doesn't exist is identical to the
evidence you would see if it did but wasn't discovered yet. That's
why you have to start from a default hypothesis of "no, it doens't
exist" - because it is possible for evidence to move you from
that position, but it's not possible for evidence to move you
TO that position even if it's correct.
So while most people view 'agnosticism' as the zero point and
atheism as negative belief and theism as posative belief, I
don't. I see atheism as the zero point, and then a ray extends
out in one direction only - toward theism. There isn't anything
in the other direction. Thus the first definition of agnosticism,
that of a fence-sitting position between atheism and theism,
isn't realy a zero point at all, but merely a partial belief
of lesser certainty than full-blown theism.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
25 Oct 2003 06:58:20 PM |
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On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:10:55 -0400, "Caleb The Profit"
<wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> posted in alt.atheism:
I was never an Atheist. I always believed in "god" and was "saved" in my
twenties. I remained a born again Christian for over 20 years. I
deconverted and left born againism and Christianity. I eventually became an
Agnostic, realising that the god of the bible was an invention of the
Israelites.
I'm an Agnostic because I can't say for certain that no Creative
Intelligence exists. But I can say for certain that it isn't biblegod.
Caleb,
Do you believe in any god? (I'm not asking whether you think that any
particular god, or any god at all, can exist, but whether you have
affirmative belief in at least one god.)
If you don't, you're an atheist, by definition. An agnostic atheist
but, then, so are most of us. (Only gnostic atheists insist that no
god, however defined, could possibly exist.)
--
"I don't try to imagine a God; it suffices to stand in awe of the structure of the world
insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it."
- Letter to S. Flesch, April 16, 1954; Einstein Archive 30-1154
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Caleb The Profit" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
25 Oct 2003 11:49:34 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:5b3mpvkpq081raieq5sh03qo85ta4ol8m4@Pern.rk...
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:10:55 -0400, "Caleb The Profit"
<wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> posted in alt.atheism:
I was never an Atheist. I always believed in "god" and was "saved" in my
twenties. I remained a born again Christian for over 20 years. I
deconverted and left born againism and Christianity. I eventually became
an
Agnostic, realising that the god of the bible was an invention of the
Israelites.
I'm an Agnostic because I can't say for certain that no Creative
Intelligence exists. But I can say for certain that it isn't biblegod.
Caleb,
Do you believe in any god? (I'm not asking whether you think that any
particular god, or any god at all, can exist, but whether you have
affirmative belief in at least one god.)
If you don't, you're an atheist, by definition. An agnostic atheist
but, then, so are most of us. (Only gnostic atheists insist that no
god, however defined, could possibly exist.)
I believe there may be a Creative Intelligence. If there is, I have no idea
what it might be.
Caleb
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| User: "Dr. Rev. Chuck, M.D. P.A." |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
26 Oct 2003 02:02:15 PM |
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Caleb The Profit wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:5b3mpvkpq081raieq5sh03qo85ta4ol8m4@Pern.rk..
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:10:55 -0400, "Caleb The Profit"
<wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> posted in alt.atheism:
I was never an Atheist. I always believed in "god" and was "saved" in my
twenties. I remained a born again Christian for over 20 years. I
deconverted and left born againism and Christianity. I eventually became
an
Agnostic, realising that the god of the bible was an invention of the
Israelites.
I'm an Agnostic because I can't say for certain that no Creative
Intelligence exists. But I can say for certain that it isn't biblegod.
Caleb,
Do you believe in any god? (I'm not asking whether you think that any
particular god, or any god at all, can exist, but whether you have
affirmative belief in at least one god.)
If you don't, you're an atheist, by definition. An agnostic atheist
but, then, so are most of us. (Only gnostic atheists insist that no
god, however defined, could possibly exist.)
I believe there may be a Creative Intelligence. If there is, I have no idea
what it might be.
Caleb
Hydrogen.
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| User: "Steve Mading" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
27 Oct 2003 04:26:54 PM |
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In talk.atheism Caleb The Profit <wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> wrote:
: "Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
: news:5b3mpvkpq081raieq5sh03qo85ta4ol8m4@Pern.rk...
:> On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:10:55 -0400, "Caleb The Profit"
:> <wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> posted in alt.atheism:
:>
:> >I was never an Atheist. I always believed in "god" and was "saved" in my
:> >twenties. I remained a born again Christian for over 20 years. I
:> >deconverted and left born againism and Christianity. I eventually became
: an
:> >Agnostic, realising that the god of the bible was an invention of the
:> >Israelites.
:>
:> >I'm an Agnostic because I can't say for certain that no Creative
:> >Intelligence exists. But I can say for certain that it isn't biblegod.
:>
:> Caleb,
:>
:> Do you believe in any god? (I'm not asking whether you think that any
:> particular god, or any god at all, can exist, but whether you have
:> affirmative belief in at least one god.)
:>
:> If you don't, you're an atheist, by definition. An agnostic atheist
:> but, then, so are most of us. (Only gnostic atheists insist that no
:> god, however defined, could possibly exist.)
: I believe there may be a Creative Intelligence. If there is, I have no idea
: what it might be.
The phrase, "believe there may be", sounds nonsesical to me. The stance
that something is in theory possible ("may be"), isn't what I'd call a
belief. It's the default stance that is no different from the stance
someone would be in if they had never even heard of the idea. (All
ideas I have never heard of are, by default, things that "might" exist.)
It is entirely possible to be an atheist and think there "might be"
a god, so long as that "might be" is the same kind of "might be" that
applies to all propositions by default - the default evidenceless
stance. "It might exist, but until I have a better reason to believe
so, I'm not going to act as if it does - that would be stupid. Since
ALL propositions by default start out as maybes, to be consistent
if I acted as if God was real just because it hadn't been ruled out
yet, then I'd have to act like EVERYTHING proposed is real upon first
hearing it, and that would not be sane."
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
26 Oct 2003 12:06:24 PM |
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On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 00:49:34 -0400, "Caleb The Profit"
<wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:5b3mpvkpq081raieq5sh03qo85ta4ol8m4@Pern.rk...
Do you believe in any god? (I'm not asking whether you think that any
particular god, or any god at all, can exist, but whether you have
affirmative belief in at least one god.)
If you don't, you're an atheist, by definition. An agnostic atheist
but, then, so are most of us. (Only gnostic atheists insist that no
god, however defined, could possibly exist.)
I believe there may be a Creative Intelligence. If there is, I have no idea
what it might be.
That's about existence, not about belief in. From what you say you
don't believe in any god. (Believing in a god and believing that the
god may exist aren't the same.)
--
"Creationists are the best evidence we have that there is no intelligent design."
-Josef Balluch
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Elf M. Sternberg" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
27 Oct 2003 09:02:57 PM |
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(Gregor K.) writes:
"Caleb The Profit" <wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> wrote in message news:<-cidnWDqy_hK5geiRVn-uw@comcast.com>...
Gregor - what's the point of this post? Simply a testimony?
Just to show you that there are indeed ex-atheists. That should help
you reconsider your stance, at least.
Nobody doubts that even atheists can lose their minds, fall prey
to the emotionally reassuring but otherwise indemonstrable fallacies of
Christianity (or Islam, or Judaism, or Frisbeetarianism), succumb to the
massive cultural pressure of their surroundings, and give up thier own
rational minds to faith in that which does not deserve faith.
That doesn't make it worth reconsidering.
Elf
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
25 Oct 2003 08:40:38 PM |
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(Gregor K.) writes:
"Caleb The Profit" wrote:
Gregor - what's the point of this post? Simply a testimony?
Just to show you that there are indeed ex-atheists. That should help
you reconsider your stance, at least.
Atheists are not motivated by peer pressure. Or rather, they probably
are--but they do not regard believers as peers.
As a Bible believer, I find transparent propaganda, of the sort most
"testimonies" are loaded with, to be highly offensive.
Regards,
Len.
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| User: "Liz" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
25 Oct 2003 09:21:36 PM |
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On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 01:40:38 GMT, in news message
<3cdgg4ix.fsf@pobox.com> wrote:
gregor@volcanomail.com (Gregor K.) writes:
"Caleb The Profit" wrote:
Gregor - what's the point of this post? Simply a testimony?
Just to show you that there are indeed ex-atheists. That should help
you reconsider your stance, at least.
Atheists are not motivated by peer pressure. Or rather, they probably
are--but they do not regard believers as peers.
As a Bible believer, I find transparent propaganda, of the sort most
"testimonies" are loaded with, to be highly offensive.
I don't know why anyone would find this type of propaganda persuasive,
yet it seems to be a staple in some of the born-again denominations.
It seems as if one *needs a testimony that they were a dirty rotten
sinner and then came to the Lord so that they will be accepted within
the fold almost as if it were an initiation ritual. I don't find it
so offensive as I find it puzzling.
Liz #658 BAAWA
4th Law: Most people cannot imagine a god morally superior
to themselves; if you want to know what such a person would
do if they had ultimate power, ask them about their deity.
-- Abner Mintz
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
25 Oct 2003 09:29:25 PM |
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Liz <ehuth1@donotspam.com> writes:
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 01:40:38 GMT, wrote:
As a Bible believer, I find transparent propaganda, of the sort
most "testimonies" are loaded with, to be highly offensive.
I don't know why anyone would find this type of propaganda
persuasive, yet it seems to be a staple in some of the born-again
denominations...I don't find it so offensive as I find it puzzling.
It's not puzzling to me, but it's hard to articulate. I think it works
best for those whose needs are primarily social; they need these
testimonies as a kind of peer pressure or positive reinforcement.
Rather like the inspritional stories in the "self-help" books.
As a kid I always enjoyed listening to "Unshackled" on the radio--one
of the last bastions of radio drama. Their cookie-cutter "how bad I
was before" dialogue made me laugh, even as a little kid.
Regards,
Len.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
25 Oct 2003 09:34:38 PM |
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writes:
Rather like the inspritional stories in the "self-help" books.
"Inspritional". I need to go to bed.
--Len.
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| User: "George Dance" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
27 Oct 2003 09:32:31 AM |
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(Gregor K.) wrote in message news:<82afdec.0310251125.18765cd3@posting.google.com>...
"Caleb The Profit" <wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> wrote in message news:<-cidnWDqy_hK5geiRVn-uw@comcast.com>...
Gregor - what's the point of this post? Simply a testimony?
Caleb
Just to show you that there are indeed ex-atheists. That should help
you reconsider your stance, at least.
But most of the people here already believe that there are
ex-atheists; so why should should the fact of one more make them
reconsider anything?
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| User: "Psymaster" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
25 Oct 2003 06:13:17 PM |
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(Gregor K.) wrote on Sat, 25 Oct 2003
19:25:15 GMT in alt.atheism:
Just to show you that there are indeed ex-atheists. That
should help you reconsider your stance, at least.
Yes, there are ex-atheists. But much fewer than ex-theists.
--
"I believe in nothing, I fear nothing, I am free."
-Nikos Kazantzakis
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| User: "Adam Marczyk" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
29 Oct 2003 11:01:35 PM |
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Gregor K. <gregor@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:82afdec.0310251125.18765cd3@posting.google.com...
"Caleb The Profit" <wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:<-cidnWDqy_hK5geiRVn-uw@comcast.com>...
Gregor - what's the point of this post? Simply a testimony?
Caleb
Just to show you that there are indeed ex-atheists. That should help
you reconsider your stance, at least.
Does the existence of ex-Christians cause you to reconsider *your* stance?
--
"We have loved the stars too fondly | a.a. #2001
to be fearful of the night." | http://www.ebonmusings.org
--Tombstone epitaph of | e-mail: ebonmuse!hotmail.com
two amateur astronomers, | ICQ: 8777843
quoted in Carl Sagan's _Cosmos_ | PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "N. Thornton" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
30 Oct 2003 08:34:30 AM |
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From many contributors:
What mensans sometimes struggle with is the fact that of all the
greatest minds throughout both the present and history, there are
many
atheists and many beilevers in God.
To claim that one view is the only rational one is simply to be
unable
to see the other side.
If that's indeed the case, then perhaps you'd be kind enough to
explain to
us poor dumb non-Mensans how belief in a supreme being without a
shred of
corroborating evidence can logically be considered rational. It seems
to me
that when no objective evidence exists to support a claim, takng the
default
position that the claim is probably false until and unless testable
empirical evidence can be presented to support it makes a good deal
more
sense than accepting it on faith as true and hoping evidence will
someday
turn up. I understand, of course, that objective evidence isn't of
any great
consequence to true believers, but the rest of us tend to attach some
importance to it. I'm curious as well with regard to just how, out of
the
literally thousands of gods that have been worshipped by various
cultures
throughout the centuries, Christians know beyond reasonable doubt
that
theirs is the "real" one.
First I'm not a member of Mensa either. R.o.m. is not Mensa.
Now your statement above is a frequently quoted view of many atheists.
I can understand its appeal, and I see there are some issues with it
too. I am also aware there are other views which are as convincing :)
I suppose there are situations where opposing viewpoints can, with a
bit of
a stretch, be considered equally valid. At least I won't claim
otherwise.
But religious belief isn't that complicated an issue.
Good god, its most certainly a complicated subject! That's precisely
why I'm not going to answer everything everyone raises here, or
anything close to it.
Either God exists or he doesn't. Believers and nonbelievers can't
both be right.
Both viewpoints
cannot be equally valid or equally rational.
Cant you imagine a suitable scenario for that? One in which both POVs
are equally... You dont appear to have considered the question of
definition, 'what is god'. Much too simplistic.
There is no debate left at this level :)
Translation: I believe God exists. However, I can't back up my belief
with
real evidence, so I'm not going to talk about it.
that's not what I meant, or said. There is lots of debate to be had on
whether god exists IMO. Possibly endless debate. Just not at the
simplistic level of what (little) I'd read at that point. The debate
needed to move up a gear.
That's OK, NT. I don't think anyone here in alt.atheism really wants
to
debate the God issue for the zillionth time anyway. But it's nice to
know
that even (allegedly) *intelligent* theists must occasionally resort
to
rationalizations to justify their beliefs. <G>
Actually I hadn't stated my beliefs in this thread. What I'd said is
perfetly compatible with either belief. Like yourself I'm not really
interested in debating gods existence yet again :) I dont feel any
justification is needed here for any of the possible views.
Because you want to believe a god exists you convince
yourself that certain 'evidences' are true even though they
are not.
It seems crass to lump all god-believers together. This is the leevl
at which debate gets pointless.
... In short, there will never be enough evidence for some people.
Which simply is not true. That's just an excuse to believe
in spite of the evidence.
Just a common belief among atheists, in no way any proof of anything.
Present the god and there will be no choice but to believe.
I like that one :) Unfortunately some of these wonderfully clear cut
ideas dont work the way that's initially expected, in practice.
No-one can present you with an electron, but we still have good reason
to believe in them. Ditto for many things.
How can someone convincingly present you with a god if people cant
agree on what god is, nor what testing would be wanted to prove. And
prove what exactly?
To claim that one view is the only rational one is simply to be
unable
to see the other side.
You error twice here.
That people believe is their perogative. However, that belief has
nothing to do with rationality.
That is nothing more than a statement of your atheist beliefs. You
appear to think there is no other reasonable interpretation simply
because you cant think of one. That is a common logical mistake.
"Faith" is a warning klaxon when it comes to all items other than
theism. There's no reason to give theism special treatment.
Wrong. When you have spent all or half your life learning from and
doing well as a result of something, again and again and again, at
some point it makes sense to say 'you know what, this thing helps me
every time, so I'll remember to go with it'. This is rational and
sensible. Most people do it. Most people have faith in something,
often their parents motives for example, sometimes other things. Faith
can be either rational or irrational, correctly placed or wrongly
placed.
A child who clutches a security blanket is not rational. Neither is
a
chronological adult who clutches groundless faith.
I agree. Those who have faith based on rational evidence are of course
more rational. You weren't lumping all believers together were you?
Actually, this is another good example of how most theists don't seem
to understand atheism at all. Atheists are no more worried about being
"in a heap of trouble"...
Most theists don't understand atheists, and most atheists don't
understand theists. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
Obviously that isn't evidence for atheism, nor for belief.
Regards, NT
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| User: "David V." |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
25 Oct 2003 08:21:16 PM |
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Gregor K. wrote:
"Caleb The Profit" <wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> wrote
Gregor - what's the point of this post? Simply a
testimony?
Just to show you that there are indeed ex-atheists. That
should help you reconsider your stance, at least.
All you did was show us that christians like to lie about
Atheists.
--
David V.
Yosemite Llama Ranch
UDP for WebTV
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
26 Oct 2003 10:45:20 PM |
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In alt.atheism on 25 Oct 2003 12:25:15 -0700,
(Gregor K.) let us all know that:
"Caleb The Profit" <wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> wrote in message news:<-cidnWDqy_hK5geiRVn-uw@comcast.com>...
Gregor - what's the point of this post? Simply a testimony?
Caleb
Just to show you that there are indeed ex-atheists. That should help
you reconsider your stance, at least.
No, it shouldn't.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
27 Oct 2003 09:54:04 PM |
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On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 04:45:20 +0000, Don Kresch wrote:
In alt.atheism on 25 Oct 2003 12:25:15 -0700,
(Gregor K.) let us all know that:
"Caleb The Profit" <wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> wrote in message news:<-cidnWDqy_hK5geiRVn-uw@comcast.com>...
Gregor - what's the point of this post? Simply a testimony?
Caleb
Just to show you that there are indeed ex-atheists. That should help
you reconsider your stance, at least.
No, it shouldn't.
I still want him to explain why he thinks it should...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - From alt.atheism only
"The computer revolution is over. We lost."
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony |
25 Oct 2003 07:34:26 PM |
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In article <82afdec.0310251125.18765cd3@posting.google.com>,
gregor@volcanomail.com says...
"Caleb The Profit" <wolfweb@nospamcomcast.net> wrote in message news:<-cidnWDqy_hK5geiRVn-uw@comcast.com>...
Gregor - what's the point of this post? Simply a testimony?
Caleb
Just to show you that there are indeed ex-atheists.
I don't think that atheists deny that there might be genuine ex-
atheists. But the "testimony" you provided was quite suspect, if not
outright perjury. Even if it were accurate, the person was not an
atheist by choice, but by upbringing, which automatically makes his
testimony worth very little. It is, in fact, quite common for people
like this to be taken in by religion, after living a sheltered life,
free from the emotional abuse of the church. If such a person had
actually had to go to church every week and attend sunday school and go
to private religious school, as I did, for example, then one expects
that he would have a rather different view of the matter. Namely, he
would know what the ***** he was talking about and not believe that all
of xianity was hunky dory just because he meets one nice person who
happens to be an evangelical. He would not hate xians because he was
told to do so by his parents, but because he saw their lies and their
manipulation and their suppression of free thought first hand. He
would know that not all believers are evil. In fact, most of them
barely even give a serious thought to their professed religion. But
those people who do become fanatical about their religion almost always
turn into dishonest, bigoted jack asses.
That should help
you reconsider your stance, at least.
Why would the experiences of someone completely different than me
entail that I re-evaluate my views. This person was an atheist for no
good reason and he became a believer for no good reason either. This
person had serious emotional problems for which he should have sought
professional help. I mean that in a good way actually. Psychologists
can help people like this. However, instead of actually solving his
problems, he chose to self-medicate with the drug of religion. Now he
believes happy fantasies, tantamount to being an adult who believes in
santa claus. The fact that this may make him happy is utterly beside
the point. This person had no clue what to do with his life and rather
than finding out he fell into the mental morass of theology, which is
by far the most bogus and worthless of endeavors.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
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| User: "towelie" |
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| Title: AQOTM nomination (was Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony) |
26 Oct 2003 02:02:08 AM |
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TV's quibbler wrote:
That should help
you reconsider your stance, at least.
Why would the experiences of someone completely different than me
entail that I re-evaluate my views. This person was an atheist for no
good reason and he became a believer for no good reason either. This
person had serious emotional problems for which he should have sought
professional help. I mean that in a good way actually. Psychologists
can help people like this.
begin nominated portion
However, instead of actually solving his
problems, he chose to self-medicate with the drug of religion.
end nominated portion
Now he
believes happy fantasies, tantamount to being an adult who believes in
santa claus. The fact that this may make him happy is utterly beside
the point. This person had no clue what to do with his life and
rather
than finding out he fell into the mental morass of theology, which is
by far the most bogus and worthless of endeavors.
Seconds?
--
Sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel
better about himself. He is a very vengeful God. He's all *****
about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can't get over
it, so he doesn't care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don't matter
to him, so long as it makes us sad...God gives us life and love and
help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can
drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it's our tears that give
God his great power.
aa #2133
apatriot #19
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: AQOTM nomination (was Re: Excerpts from an ex-atheist's testimony) |
26 Oct 2003 10:11:45 AM |
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Lo, many moons past, on Sun, 26 Oct 2003 02:02:08 -0600, a stranger
called by some "towelie" <bugoNOSPAM@hotmail.com> came forth and told
this tale in alt.atheism
TV's quibbler wrote:
That should help
you reconsider your stance, at least.
Why would the experiences of someone completely different than me
entail that I re-evaluate my views. This person was an atheist for no
good reason and he became a believer for no good reason either. This
person had serious emotional problems for which he should have sought
professional help. I mean that in a good way actually. Psychologists
can help people like this.
begin nominated portion
However, instead of actually solving his
problems, he chose to self-medicate with the drug of religion.
end nominated portion
Now he
believes happy fantasies, tantamount to being an adult who believes in
santa claus. The fact that this may make him happy is utterly beside
the point. This person had no clue what to do with his life and
rather
than finding out he fell into the mental morass of theology, which is
by far the most bogus and worthless of endeavors.
Seconds?
Seconded
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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