Religions > Atheism > Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
25 Oct 2006 05:25:17 AM |
| Object: |
Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
http://www.equip.org/free/DJ028.htm
BOOK REVIEWS
Eyewitness to Jesus:
Amazing New Manuscript Evidence about the Origin of the Gospels
by Carsten Peter Thiede and Matthew d'Ancona
When I first read in the Los Angeles Times in early 1995, that an
expert had reevaluated some papyrus fragments of the Gospel of Matthew
and dated them to the first century, I realized this could have
far-reaching ramifications for biblical scholarship. For the past two
centuries, liberal higher critics have used literary arguments and the
lack of manuscripts from the first century to support their assumption
that the Gospels were written long after the events they describe.
If hard artifacts verify the dating of Matthew's Gospel as far back
as A.D. 60, these artifacts would destroy the foundation of liberal
higher criticism. Since some of these same scholars argue that Mark
wrote the first Gospel, this discovery would push the composition of
Mark to within 20 years, at most, of the events his Gospel describes.
Taken together, the synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) and
Luke's second volume, Acts, would give us a record of the events of
Jesus' life, death, and resurrection indisputably written within the
lifetimes of those who were eyewitnesses and who, therefore, could have
disputed any untrue assertions. There would be no time for fabrications
to develop, no time for a "Jesus of faith" to replace the "Jesus of
history," no time for the church to evolve a supernatural story from a
simple inspiring teacher, and no time for Christians to transform
first-century events into second or third-century pseudohistory.
Although the literary arguments and philosophical presuppositions of
the liberal higher critics have their own fatal flaws, their subjective
nature sometimes makes them difficult to refute clearly. For example, a
common liberal presupposition is that Jesus Himself never claimed to be
God, so any deity statements attributed to Him in the Gospels must be
later composition inserted in His name. A discovery that depends, not
on changing theories of literary interpretation, but on empirical
evidence from paper, ink, and penmanship, would refute the liberal
theories with unmistakable finality.
I found another report of the discovery in a biblical archaeology
magazine and realized that, if it could be verified, it would provide
an even more important historical context for the New Testament than
that provided for the Old Testament by the 1948 discovery of the Dead
Sea Scrolls. This is because it affirms eyewitness authorship.
Carsten Peter Thiede's work first appeared in a professional journal
on which the London press reported. Shortly thereafter, Thiede
collaborated with Matthew d'Ancona, the London Times editor who broke
the story. The result is the very readable, clearly written Eyewitness
to Jesus. Although the book is not overtly a Bible apologetic, it
certainly lends itself to that. Those who want to learn more about this
fascinating subject will also appreciate the book's helpful
footnotes, glossary, and extensive bibliography.
In addition to Thiede's well-argued redating of the Matthew
fragments, chapter six, "Scribes and Christianity," contains
fascinating auxiliary information for understanding the literary and
historical background of the New Testament. In this chapter Thiede
discusses the multilingual society of first-century Israel; Jesus'
childhood exposure to Greek culture in Sepphoris, the capital of
Galilee, less than four miles from Nazareth; Jesus' use of Greek
literary terms; Jesus' and Paul's familiarity with Greek drama;
first-century scribal techniques; first-century "shorthand," especially
customary religious abbreviations called nomen sacrum; and a summary of
traditions regarding Peter's final days before his martyrdom. The
contents of this chapter alone will enrich anyone's understanding and
appreciation of the New Testament.
The Matthew fragments redated by Thiede are at Magdalen College
(Oxford). They are called The Magdalen Papyrus (listed as Greek 17 and
p64). There are three fragments written on both sides, together
representing 24 lines from Matthew 26:7-33. Two of the three fragments
are a little larger than 4 x 1 cm.; the other is smaller, 1.6 x 1.6 cm.
Another two fragments, located in Spain, are called the Barcelona
Papyrus (P. Barc. inv. 1/p67) and contain portions of Matthew 3:9, 15;
5:20-22, 25-28.
The Magdalen Papyrus surfaced in the modern world in 1901, when Charles
B. Huleatt purchased it from an antiquities dealer in Luxor, Egypt.
Nothing is known of the fragment's preservation before that time.
Huleatt donated the fragments to Magdalen College, where they were
given a cursory examination by Magdalen scholar Arthur Hunt, who
tentatively dated them to the fourth century. In 1953, Colin Roberts
redated the Magdalen Papyrus to the later second century and
established their connection to the Barcelona fragments.
More than 40 years later Thiede reexamined the fragments, using
state-of-the-art electronic scanners with close analysis of the
paper, ink, letter formation, line length, and other factors to redate
the fragments to around A.D. 60. Thiede's tests and skill appear to
be well within responsible papyrology, although his conclusions have
met with strong opposition from critics.
I have examined most of the critical articles and have found their
criticisms less convincing than Thiede's conclusions. A layperson's
paraphrase of one common criticism is that the papyrus must not be from
the first century because there weren't any codexes (book-leafs) in
first-century Jewish/Christian literature but only scrolls, even though
the papyrus has all of the physical characteristics of a first-century
document. As Thiede rightly points out, the argument against
first-century codexes is an argument from silence - of the small
percentage of recovered early manuscript portions, no indisputable
first-century codex portion has been identified. If, however, the
Magdalen/Barcelona codex is first century, then we do have an example
of a first-century codex. Moreover, if critical assumptions are
reconsidered, and cutting-edge papyrology tests are applied to other
previously dated fragments, we may well find other early examples of
codexes.
Time and careful scholarship will tell whether Thiede's redating is
sound. If it is (and the more I study the issue, the more confidence I
have in Thiede), we will have valuable affirmation of the eyewitness
nature of the Gospel records, the uninterrupted and unchanging
preservation of those testimonies, and our twentieth-century
inheritance of "the faith that God has once for all entrusted to the
saints" (Jude 3) by those who "did not follow cleverly invented
stories," but "were eyewitnesses of his majesty" (2 Pet. 1:16).
- Reviewed by Bob Passantino
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
31 Oct 2006 05:44:00 PM |
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Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in
news:ia9dk2pngaikqnj5emne2uhn1d5kb5uerg@4ax.com:
On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 14:14:14 -0600, <joerevskelton@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:aclck29klufmt0mlktafr65l80982vvhj0@4ax.com...
On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 09:14:17 +0100, Kendall K. Down
<webmaster@diggingsonline.com> wrote:
And peasants know the difference between an eclipse and some unnamable
darkness.
Really? First century illiterates (they're the ones who passed the
story on to those who write it down) knew what an eclipse was? Funny
there's nothing in writing to even come close to that.
You're absolutely right, Al; those illiterates should have left a
written record of their understandings.....
So you have a citation showing that the mechanism we call a solar
eclipse was known as anything other than "God making it dark" in those
days? Or you're just asserting that they knew what it was?
It probably depends on the people involved. Certainly the ancient Greek
astronomers were fully aware of what both solar and lunar eclipses were and
even tried to predict them. It was claimed by Herodotus, that Thales had
some success one one occaision, however there is no available documentation
of Thales method, so we don't have any way to check if he was on the right
track. Of course the Greeks even knew that the Earth was more or less
spherical from their lunar eclipse observations. By 150AD Ptolemy had a
pretty good handle on predicting lunar eclipses - See 'The Almagest' (of
course solar eclipses are much harder to predict, as the moon's shadow
makes a narrow track across the Earth's surface which is hard to figure out
without an accurate theory of the motion of the moon).
Whether this Greek astronomer knowledge was available to the common folk in
the middle east I don't know but a read of the NT, does tend to give the
impression that the authors knew jack-all about astromony - even in the
state it was in those days.
Klazmon.
<SNIP>
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| User: "Kendall K. Down" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
01 Nov 2006 01:44:34 AM |
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In message <Xns986E8188043F9Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6>
Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote:
Whether this Greek astronomer knowledge was available to the common folk in
the middle east I don't know but a read of the NT, does tend to give the
impression that the authors knew jack-all about astromony - even in the
state it was in those days.
That's an interesting remark, as I am not aware of any astronomical
statements in the New Testament. Can you clarify?
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
01 Nov 2006 04:52:51 PM |
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Kendall K. Down <webmaster@diggingsonline.com> wrote in
news:99d0d87e4e.diggings@diggingsonline.com:
In message <Xns986E8188043F9Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6>
Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote:
Whether this Greek astronomer knowledge was available to the common
folk in the middle east I don't know but a read of the NT, does tend to
give the impression that the authors knew jack-all about astromony -
even in the state it was in those days.
That's an interesting remark, as I am not aware of any astronomical
statements in the New Testament. Can you clarify?
Read the story about the magi.
Klazmon.
Ken Down
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| User: "Kendall K. Down" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
02 Nov 2006 01:08:55 AM |
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In message <Xns986F78DA830FDKlazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6>
Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote:
Whether this Greek astronomer knowledge was available to the common
folk in the middle east I don't know but a read of the NT, does tend to
give the impression that the authors knew jack-all about astromony -
even in the state it was in those days.
That's an interesting remark, as I am not aware of any astronomical
statements in the New Testament. Can you clarify?
Read the story about the magi.
Ok ... so how does that story demonstrate the author's ignorance of astronomy?
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
05 Nov 2006 04:39:51 PM |
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Kendall K. Down <webmaster@diggingsonline.com> wrote in
news:c962597f4e.diggings@diggingsonline.com:
In message <Xns986F78DA830FDKlazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6>
Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote:
Whether this Greek astronomer knowledge was available to the common
folk in the middle east I don't know but a read of the NT, does tend
to give the impression that the authors knew jack-all about
astromony - even in the state it was in those days.
That's an interesting remark, as I am not aware of any astronomical
statements in the New Testament. Can you clarify?
Read the story about the magi.
Ok ... so how does that story demonstrate the author's ignorance of
astronomy?
Ken Down
Following a star. LOL.
Klazmon.
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| User: "Kendall K. Down" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
06 Nov 2006 01:20:52 AM |
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In message <Xns987376A72CE17Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6>
Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote:
Read the story about the magi.
Ok ... so how does that story demonstrate the author's ignorance of
astronomy?
Following a star. LOL.
I see. You are suggesting that they should have used their GPS instead, I
presume.
Try looking up some information about navigation in the days when the stars
were the only way for sailors to know where they were at sea.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
06 Nov 2006 04:09:14 PM |
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Kendall K. Down <webmaster@diggingsonline.com> wrote in
news:07d369814e.diggings@diggingsonline.com:
In message <Xns987376A72CE17Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6>
Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote:
Read the story about the magi.
Ok ... so how does that story demonstrate the author's ignorance of
astronomy?
Following a star. LOL.
I see. You are suggesting that they should have used their GPS instead,
I presume.
Try looking up some information about navigation in the days when the
stars were the only way for sailors to know where they were at sea.
Navigators do not follow stars. Please keep telling the world of your
ignorance. It's kind of entertaining in a low grade sort of way.
Klazmon.
Ken Down
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| User: "Kendall K. Down" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
07 Nov 2006 01:32:30 AM |
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In message <Xns98747176D2061Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6>
Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote:
Navigators do not follow stars. Please keep telling the world of your
ignorance. It's kind of entertaining in a low grade sort of way.
They do if they're sailing north. For the rest, they still use stars for
their navigation.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
09 Nov 2006 06:54:53 AM |
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In <b2b9ee814e.diggings@diggingsonline.com>, on 11/07/06
at 07:32 AM, Kendall K. Down <webmaster@diggingsonline.com> said:
In message <Xns98747176D2061Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6>
Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote:
Navigators do not follow stars. Please keep telling the world of your
ignorance. It's kind of entertaining in a low grade sort of way.
They do if they're sailing north. For the rest, they still use stars for
their navigation.
They do not follow a star that is the brightest object in the sky in is
traversing from East to West overland. However, a particular fable is a
repetition and variation of the previous Judaic fable. Of course, you
being be senior expert on blithe airs of assumption and intellectual
superiority are most unlikely to be aware of which particular saga that
particular event was first associated with.
Ken Down
walksalone is beginning to suspect they can simply post in order to see
his name in bright lights, as a figure of speech of course. Apparently
somebody forgot to tell him that the stadium is empty of anybody who is
desirous of seeing him make a fool of himself.
Against my will, in the course of my travels, the belief that everything
worth knowing was known at Cambridge gradually wore off. In this respect
my travels were very useful to me. Bertrand Russell philosopher,
mathematician, author, Nobel laureate (1872-1970)
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
08 Nov 2006 04:01:17 PM |
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Kendall K. Down <webmaster@diggingsonline.com> wrote in
news:b2b9ee814e.diggings@diggingsonline.com:
In message <Xns98747176D2061Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6>
Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote:
Navigators do not follow stars. Please keep telling the world of your
ignorance. It's kind of entertaining in a low grade sort of way.
They do if they're sailing north. For the rest, they still use stars for
their navigation.
That is a different issue to claiming that they follow stars. Yes Polaris is
roughly due North ( back then it wasn't as close to the pole as it is now)
but if you are claiming that the Magi were heading towards the azimuth of
Polaris then you are stretching beyond credibility.
Klazmon.
Ken Down
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| User: "Kendall K. Down" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
09 Nov 2006 01:51:21 AM |
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In message <Xns9876701E128FAKlazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6>
Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote:
That is a different issue to claiming that they follow stars. Yes Polaris is
roughly due North ( back then it wasn't as close to the pole as it is now)
but if you are claiming that the Magi were heading towards the azimuth of
Polaris then you are stretching beyond credibility.
Just as well I'm not claiming that, then.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
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| User: "Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
09 Nov 2006 05:32:14 PM |
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Kendall K. Down <webmaster@diggingsonline.com> wrote in
news:a61ff8824e.diggings@diggingsonline.com:
In message <Xns9876701E128FAKlazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6>
Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote:
That is a different issue to claiming that they follow stars. Yes
Polaris is roughly due North ( back then it wasn't as close to the pole
as it is now) but if you are claiming that the Magi were heading
towards the azimuth of Polaris then you are stretching beyond
credibility.
Just as well I'm not claiming that, then.
Nice attempt to evade the issue.
Klazmon.
Ken Down
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
02 Nov 2006 01:53:17 AM |
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On 2 Nov 2006 11:52:51 +1300, Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th
<Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote:
- Refer: <Xns986F78DA830FDKlazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6>
Kendall K. Down <webmaster@diggingsonline.com> wrote in
news:99d0d87e4e.diggings@diggingsonline.com:
In message <Xns986E8188043F9Klazmonllurdiaxorbgo@203.97.37.6>
Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th <Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote:
Whether this Greek astronomer knowledge was available to the common
folk in the middle east I don't know but a read of the NT, does tend to
give the impression that the authors knew jack-all about astromony -
even in the state it was in those days.
That's an interesting remark, as I am not aware of any astronomical
statements in the New Testament. Can you clarify?
Read the story about the magi.
Klazmon.
In the original?
He can't.
--
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| User: "George Peatty" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
01 Nov 2006 05:31:41 PM |
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On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:44:34 +0100, Kendall K. Down
<webmaster@diggingsonline.com> wrote:
That's an interesting remark, as I am not aware of any astronomical
statements in the New Testament. Can you clarify?
Quite a lot actually. Here's a quick concordance search of the word star;
please note that many of the references are figurative and do not refer to
astronomical phenomena as such:
Mt 2:2 (NASB)
2 “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in
the east, and have come to worship Him.”
Mt 2:7 (NASB)
7 Then Herod secretly called the magi, and ascertained from them the time
the star appeared.
Mt 2:9 (NASB)
9 And having heard the king, they went their way; and lo, the star, which
they had seen in the east, went on before them, until it came and stood over
where the Child was.
Mt 2:10 (NASB)
10 And when they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy.
Mt 15:36 (NASB)
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be
darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from
the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken,
Mk 13:25 (NASB)
25 and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in
the heavens will be shaken.
Lk 21:25 (NASB)
25 “And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and upon the earth
dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
Ac 7:43 (NASB)
43 ‘You also took along the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of the god
Rompha, the images which you made to worship them. I also will remove you
beyond Babylon.’
Ac 27:20 (NASB)
20 And since neither sun nor stars appeared for many days, and no small
storm was assailing us, from then on all hope of our being saved was
gradually abandoned.
1 Co 15:41 (NASB)
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and
another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1 Co 15:41 (NASB)
Heb 11:12 (NASB)
12 therefore, also, there was born of one man, and him as good as dead at
that, as many descendants as the stars of heaven in number, and innumerable
as the sand which is by the seashore.
2 Pe 1:19 (NASB)
19 And so we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well
to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns
and the morning star arises in your hearts.
Jud 13 (NASB)
13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering
stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
Re 1:16 (NASB)
16 And in His right hand He held seven stars; and out of His mouth came a
sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its
strength.
Re 1:20 (NASB)
20 “As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand,
and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven
churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
Re 2:1 (NASB)
2:1 ”To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:The One who holds the seven
stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden
lampstands, says this:
Re 2:28 (NASB)
28 and I will give him the morning star.
Re 3:1 (NASB)
3:1 ”And to the angel of the church in Sardis write:He who has the seven
Spirits of God, and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you
have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
Re 6:13 (NASB)
13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its
unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.
Re 8:10 (NASB)
10 And the third angel sounded, and a great star fell from heaven, burning
like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of
waters;
Re 8:11 (NASB)
11 and the name of the star is called Wormwood; and a third of the waters
became wormwood; and many men died from the waters, because they were made
bitter.
Re 8:12 (NASB)
12 And the fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun and a third of the
moon and a third of the stars were smitten, so that a third of them might be
darkened and the day might not shine for a third of it, and the night in the
same way.
Re 9:1 (NASB)
9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had
fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him.
Re 12:1 (NASB)
12:1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and
the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;
Re 12:4 (NASB)
4 And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven, and threw them
to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give
birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.
Re 22:16 (NASB)
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the
churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning
star.”
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| User: "Kendall K. Down" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
02 Nov 2006 01:10:51 AM |
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In message <habik21e36de7t6n87iohat4u8ttvdlok6@4ax.com>
George Peatty <peattyg47-1230@copper.net> wrote:
Quite a lot actually. Here's a quick concordance search of the word star;
please note that many of the references are figurative and do not refer to
astronomical phenomena as such:
Exactly. The only one that might be considered as "astronomical knowledge"
is St Paul's reference to different types of "glory" which, if anything,
shows that he was aware of the astronomical thinking of his day.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
31 Oct 2006 06:54:17 PM |
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On 1 Nov 2006 12:44:00 +1300, Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th
<Klazmon@llurdiaxorb.govt> wrote:
Whether this Greek astronomer knowledge was available to the common folk in
the middle east I don't know but a read of the NT, does tend to give the
impression that the authors knew jack-all about astromony - even in the
state it was in those days.
Considering that the average person on the street in any major city
today couldn't explain how an eclipse (solar or lunar) works, I doubt
that the average person back then had the faintest idea what an
eclipse was. Maybe in Greece, but not in Palestine.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my
contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him, the
spinal cord would fully suffice."
- Albert Einstein
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Kendall K. Down" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
01 Nov 2006 01:47:15 AM |
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In message <lqrfk29it5nje3omjmhol24mmqc2hui444@4ax.com>
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
Considering that the average person on the street in any major city
today couldn't explain how an eclipse (solar or lunar) works, I doubt
that the average person back then had the faintest idea what an
eclipse was. Maybe in Greece, but not in Palestine.
That may well be so, but even so this hypothetical average person still
knows the difference between an eclipse and a cloudy day. If the darkness of
the crucifixion had been an eclipse I am sure the Gospel authors would have
said so - after all, what better way of showing divine displeasure than the
supernatural portent of an eclipse? Instead the best they can come up with
is "darkness".
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
01 Nov 2006 07:51:28 PM |
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On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:47:15 +0100, Kendall K. Down
<webmaster@diggingsonline.com> wrote:
In message <lqrfk29it5nje3omjmhol24mmqc2hui444@4ax.com>
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
Considering that the average person on the street in any major city
today couldn't explain how an eclipse (solar or lunar) works, I doubt
that the average person back then had the faintest idea what an
eclipse was. Maybe in Greece, but not in Palestine.
That may well be so, but even so this hypothetical average person still
knows the difference between an eclipse and a cloudy day. If the darkness of
the crucifixion had been an eclipse I am sure the Gospel authors would have
said so - after all, what better way of showing divine displeasure than the
supernatural portent of an eclipse?
The illiteratti didn't know an eclipse from an ellipse.
Instead the best they can come up with is "darkness".
Pretty good description of an eclipse from a primitive sheep herder,
passed on mouth to mouth for 60 years or so.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education and social
ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he
had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
-Albert Einstein
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Kendall K. Down" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
02 Nov 2006 01:13:11 AM |
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In message <sljik2pmmdifbe2c6bjdagsspv9uc9jucr@4ax.com>
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
Pretty good description of an eclipse from a primitive sheep herder,
passed on mouth to mouth for 60 years or so.
Was anyone saying something about ignorance and prejudice?
The Gospels are unanimous in saying that Jesus Himself was a carpenter and
His disciples were fishermen (with the exception of Matthew the tax
gatherer). Not a shepherd in sight.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
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| User: "Darrell Stec" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
12 Nov 2006 12:30:40 PM |
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After serious contemplation, on or about Thursday 02 November 2006 2:13
am Kendall K. Down perhaps from wrote:
In message <sljik2pmmdifbe2c6bjdagsspv9uc9jucr@4ax.com>
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
Pretty good description of an eclipse from a primitive sheep herder,
passed on mouth to mouth for 60 years or so.
Was anyone saying something about ignorance and prejudice?
The Gospels are unanimous in saying that Jesus Himself was a carpenter
You really have no idea what the bible contains do you? The gospels in
fact are not unanimous "in saying that Jesus Himself was a carpenter."
You continually make stupid mistakes like this.
Mark is the ONLY gospel that calls Joshua a carpenter. The ONLY ONE:
"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and
Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?
And they were offended at him."
Matthew is the only other gospel with the word carpenter in it. In fact
these are the only examples of the word carpenter (actually tekton not
carpenter) in the entire New Testament. Matthew says:
"Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his
brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are
they not all with us?"
Mark never says Joseph is a carpenter and Matthew never says Joshua is a
carpenter. The reason Mark never mentions Joseph's occupation is
because Mark never mentions Joseph at all. Joseph was unimportant to
his story. More puzzling is why Matthew changed Mark's passage to make
Joseph the carpenter and not Joshua. And Luke and John never mention
the subject.
So once again we see you know nothing about the bible you believe in so
much.
and His disciples were fishermen (with the exception of Matthew the
tax gatherer). Not a shepherd in sight.
False.
I'll bet you can't even name the 12 disciples.
Ken Down
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
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| User: "Darrell Stec" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
03 Nov 2006 10:03:27 AM |
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After serious contemplation, on or about Thursday 02 November 2006 2:13
am Kendall K. Down perhaps from wrote:
In message <sljik2pmmdifbe2c6bjdagsspv9uc9jucr@4ax.com>
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
Pretty good description of an eclipse from a primitive sheep herder,
passed on mouth to mouth for 60 years or so.
Was anyone saying something about ignorance and prejudice?
The Gospels are unanimous in saying that Jesus Himself was a carpenter
Your ENGLISH bibles say carpenter however as any reader of Greek
Literature knows, "tecton" the word translated as carpenter is widely
used to mean shipbuilder (as in owner) or general contractor (as in
builder of cities). So rather than being a poor benchmaker as some
wish to believe, the writers of the gospels created the hero of their
fictions as a man of wealth.
Note the gifts of the magi -- gold, frankincense and myrrh. Gifts to
the wealthy by the wealthy. Had you researched the botany books of the
first or second century CE mideast, you would have known that
frankincense and myrrh were more costly than gold.
Add to that the parables show great familiarity with the customs and
concepts of the wealthy, Mark at least knew the topic well and wanted
his hero to exemplify the same.
So no, the gospels do not agree that Joshua was a carpenter in the
commonly perceived sense of the word.
and His disciples were fishermen (with the exception of Matthew the
tax gatherer). Not a shepherd in sight.
Ken Down
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
03 Nov 2006 12:19:28 PM |
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"Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote in message
news:4r17i0Fpc28rU2@individual.net...
After serious contemplation, on or about Thursday 02 November 2006 2:13
am Kendall K. Down perhaps from wrote:
In message <sljik2pmmdifbe2c6bjdagsspv9uc9jucr@4ax.com>
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
Pretty good description of an eclipse from a primitive sheep herder,
passed on mouth to mouth for 60 years or so.
Was anyone saying something about ignorance and prejudice?
The Gospels are unanimous in saying that Jesus Himself was a carpenter
Your ENGLISH bibles say carpenter however as any reader of Greek
Literature knows, "tecton" the word translated as carpenter is widely
used to mean shipbuilder (as in owner) or general contractor (as in
builder of cities). So rather than being a poor benchmaker as some
wish to believe, the writers of the gospels created the hero of their
fictions as a man of wealth.
Note the gifts of the magi -- gold, frankincense and myrrh. Gifts to
the wealthy by the wealthy. Had you researched the botany books of the
first or second century CE mideast, you would have known that
frankincense and myrrh were more costly than gold.
Add to that the parables show great familiarity with the customs and
concepts of the wealthy, Mark at least knew the topic well and wanted
his hero to exemplify the same.
So no, the gospels do not agree that Joshua was a carpenter in the
commonly perceived sense of the word.
and His disciples were fishermen (with the exception of Matthew the
tax gatherer). Not a shepherd in sight.
Ken Down
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
03 Nov 2006 12:22:52 PM |
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"Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote in message
news:4r17i0Fpc28rU2@individual.net...
After serious contemplation, on or about Thursday 02 November 2006 2:13
am Kendall K. Down perhaps from wrote:
In message <sljik2pmmdifbe2c6bjdagsspv9uc9jucr@4ax.com>
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:
Pretty good description of an eclipse from a primitive sheep herder,
passed on mouth to mouth for 60 years or so.
Was anyone saying something about ignorance and prejudice?
The Gospels are unanimous in saying that Jesus Himself was a carpenter
Your ENGLISH bibles say carpenter however as any reader of Greek
Literature knows, "tecton" the word translated as carpenter is widely
used to mean shipbuilder (as in owner) or general contractor (as in
builder of cities). So rather than being a poor benchmaker as some
wish to believe, the writers of the gospels created the hero of their
fictions as a man of wealth.
The word also means the guy who stacks up the rocks for your tiny four room
house, or for a fence tokeep your one cow trom straying. There is no
indication of wealth. Anyone who builds anything is a tecton.
Note the gifts of the magi -- gold, frankincense and myrrh. Gifts to
the wealthy by the wealthy. Had you researched the botany books of the
first or second century CE mideast, you would have known that
frankincense and myrrh were more costly than gold.
Add to that the parables show great familiarity with the customs and
concepts of the wealthy, Mark at least knew the topic well and wanted
his hero to exemplify the same.
So no, the gospels do not agree that Joshua was a carpenter in the
commonly perceived sense of the word.
and His disciples were fishermen (with the exception of Matthew the
tax gatherer). Not a shepherd in sight.
Ken Down
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.
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| User: "Kendall K. Down" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
05 Nov 2006 03:07:53 PM |
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In message <hOL2h.249$GE1.101@bignews7.bellsouth.net>
<joerevskelton@bellsouth.net> wrote:
The word also means the guy who stacks up the rocks for your tiny four room
house, or for a fence tokeep your one cow trom straying. There is no
indication of wealth. Anyone who builds anything is a tecton.
Quite. Alas, simple truth is not conducive to the construction of straw men.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
03 Nov 2006 04:44:08 PM |
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On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 12:22:52 -0600, <joerevskelton@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
The word also means the guy who stacks up the rocks for your tiny four room
house, or for a fence tokeep your one cow trom straying. There is no
indication of wealth. Anyone who builds anything is a tecton.
Anyone who built anything - for money - was wealthy. The peasant had
no wealth - that is, he had no money. He grew and bred his own food,
used natural materials -reeds, skins - for clothing, made his own
dwelling. the tecton, the officer, the senator - these were thee
wealthy. They BOUGHT food, clothing and shelter.
Remember, for the Romans, this was the Bronze Age. For the peasant it
was still the Neolithic. Money wasn't a universal commodity yet, it
was an instrument the wealthy used to measure their wealth.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"religion did for *****, what Stonehenge did for rocks"
- The World Famous Tink
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
03 Nov 2006 06:27:46 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:n9hnk2do3ggfik4h9hmvelhdbdo4s0891o@4ax.com...
On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 12:22:52 -0600, <joerevskelton@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
The word also means the guy who stacks up the rocks for your tiny four
room
house, or for a fence tokeep your one cow trom straying. There is no
indication of wealth. Anyone who builds anything is a tecton.
Anyone who built anything - for money - was wealthy. The peasant had
no wealth - that is, he had no money. He grew and bred his own food,
used natural materials -reeds, skins - for clothing, made his own
dwelling. the tecton, the officer, the senator - these were thee
wealthy. They BOUGHT food, clothing and shelter.
Or traded theirlabors to their neighbors for it. You appear to be imposing
21st century assumptions on the 1st century. I know you don't believe there
is any truth to the story, but here, we are talking simply about what the
story says. It says that Mary and Joseph grought two pigeons to the Temple
for mary's purification offering. This is the poverty offering, when no one
in the family can afford the perscribed
lamb.
Remember, for the Romans, this was the Bronze Age. For the peasant it
was still the Neolithic. Money wasn't a universal commodity yet, it
was an instrument the wealthy used to measure their wealth.
And those who did not have wealth were permitted to offer two pegeons rather
than a lamb for the purification offering.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"religion did for *****, what Stonehenge did for rocks"
- The World Famous Tink
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
03 Nov 2006 07:07:38 PM |
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On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 18:27:46 -0600, <joerevskelton@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Or traded theirlabors to their neighbors for it. You appear to be imposing
21st century assumptions on the 1st century. I know you don't believe there
is any truth to the story, but here, we are talking simply about what the
story says. It says that Mary and Joseph grought two pigeons to the Temple
for mary's purification offering. This is the poverty offering, when no one
in the family can afford the perscribed lamb.
One of the books also says that Miryam was Yakov's wife's maidservant
and he married her after his wife died (and she - Miryam - was
carrying his child). Do you accept that story too, or do you just
accept the ones that support your beliefs?
And those who did not have wealth were permitted to offer two pegeons rather
than a lamb for the purification offering.
Which has nothing to do with the fact that, as a tecton, Jesus would
have had money, so he would have been considered one of the wealthy.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"We should do unto others as we would want them to do unto us. If I were an unborn
fetus I would want others to use force to protect me, therefore using force against
abortionists is *justifiable homocide*."
- "Pro-Life" doctor killer and corpse Paul Hill
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
04 Nov 2006 05:43:40 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:6qpnk292auipju4r52fpv4v58ogon012vd@4ax.com...
On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 18:27:46 -0600, <joerevskelton@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Or traded theirlabors to their neighbors for it. You appear to be imposing
21st century assumptions on the 1st century. I know you don't believe
there
is any truth to the story, but here, we are talking simply about what the
story says. It says that Mary and Joseph grought two pigeons to the Temple
for mary's purification offering. This is the poverty offering, when no
one
in the family can afford the perscribed lamb.
One of the books also says that Miryam was Yakov's wife's maidservant
and he married her after his wife died (and she - Miryam - was
carrying his child). Do you accept that story too, or do you just
accept the ones that support your beliefs?
And those who did not have wealth were permitted to offer two pegeons
rather
than a lamb for the purification offering.
Which has nothing to do with the fact that, as a tecton, Jesus would
have had money, so he would have been considered one of the wealthy.
This is not a fact. It's an indefensible assumption.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"We should do unto others as we would want them to do unto us. If I were
an unborn
fetus I would want others to use force to protect me, therefore using
force against
abortionists is *justifiable homocide*."
- "Pro-Life" doctor killer and corpse Paul Hill
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.
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| User: "Darrell Stec" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
05 Nov 2006 09:49:30 AM |
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After serious contemplation, on or about Saturday 04 November 2006 6:43
pm perhaps from
wrote:
Which has nothing to do with the fact that, as a tecton, Jesus would
have had money, so he would have been considered one of the wealthy.
This is not a fact. It's an indefensible assumption.
No it is not. It is a careful observation of reading the Greek texts.
Please provide any Greek text showing a tecton is a poor person. You
may not use the bible.
As I said, tecton in the Greek literature is found in connection to
master builders, the shipbuilder (as in shipyard owner) or master
contractor (as in builders of cities). What you don't seem to
understand is that your assertion (though the common one even among
"scholars" is just that, a baseless assertion, unfounded by evidence.
You and they WANT TO BELIEVE your Joshua was a poor teacher. Do you
think he would know so much about money if he belonged to the dregs of
society? His creators obviously wanted to present him as a wealth
person.
Again, please show us texts from the Greek literature that supports YOUR
point of view.
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
05 Nov 2006 03:48:02 PM |
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"Darrell Stec" <darrell_stec@webpagesorcery.com> wrote in message
news:4r6ffsFq1vosU1@individual.net...
After serious contemplation, on or about Saturday 04 November 2006 6:43
pm perhaps from
wrote:
Which has nothing to do with the fact that, as a tecton, Jesus would
have had money, so he would have been considered one of the wealthy.
This is not a fact. It's an indefensible assumption.
No it is not. It is a careful observation of reading the Greek texts.
Please provide any Greek text showing a tecton is a poor person. You
may not use the bible.
You are using the Bible as the source for the term tecton.
You are claiming, without evidence, that all techtons were wealthy.
As I said, tecton in the Greek literature is found in connection to
master builders, the shipbuilder (as in shipyard owner) or master
contractor (as in builders of cities).
If it were found ONLY in connection to these, that would be evidence. But
anyone who built anything was a tecton. It just means builder. All you have
demonstrated is that yu can put "master" in foront of it and restrict the
meaning. Joseph is not called a master builder.; just a builder.
You add master in front of builder and common in front of thief and then
claim that is what the text says. As Ihave said before, you are as brain
dead as the Biblical literalists who insist that every word of the Bible is
literally true.
What you don't seem to
understand is that your assertion (though the common one even among
"scholars" is just that, a baseless assertion, unfounded by evidence.
You and they WANT TO BELIEVE your Joshua was a poor teacher. Do you
think he would know so much about money if he belonged to the dregs of
society? His creators obviously wanted to present him as a wealth
person.
Then why did they have his parents pleading poverty by presenting two doves
instead a lamb? Qhy didn't they add the Greek equivalent of "master to
builder as you have to do to try to support their arguement.
Again, please show us texts from the Greek literature that supports YOUR
point of view.
What I have shown is that there is no support of yours, and a report of a
temple offering that contradicts yours..
--
Later,
Darrell Stec
Webpage Sorcery
http://webpagesorcery.com
We Put the Magic in Your Webpages
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