Religions > Atheism > Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
25 Oct 2006 05:25:17 AM |
| Object: |
Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
http://www.equip.org/free/DJ028.htm
BOOK REVIEWS
Eyewitness to Jesus:
Amazing New Manuscript Evidence about the Origin of the Gospels
by Carsten Peter Thiede and Matthew d'Ancona
When I first read in the Los Angeles Times in early 1995, that an
expert had reevaluated some papyrus fragments of the Gospel of Matthew
and dated them to the first century, I realized this could have
far-reaching ramifications for biblical scholarship. For the past two
centuries, liberal higher critics have used literary arguments and the
lack of manuscripts from the first century to support their assumption
that the Gospels were written long after the events they describe.
If hard artifacts verify the dating of Matthew's Gospel as far back
as A.D. 60, these artifacts would destroy the foundation of liberal
higher criticism. Since some of these same scholars argue that Mark
wrote the first Gospel, this discovery would push the composition of
Mark to within 20 years, at most, of the events his Gospel describes.
Taken together, the synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) and
Luke's second volume, Acts, would give us a record of the events of
Jesus' life, death, and resurrection indisputably written within the
lifetimes of those who were eyewitnesses and who, therefore, could have
disputed any untrue assertions. There would be no time for fabrications
to develop, no time for a "Jesus of faith" to replace the "Jesus of
history," no time for the church to evolve a supernatural story from a
simple inspiring teacher, and no time for Christians to transform
first-century events into second or third-century pseudohistory.
Although the literary arguments and philosophical presuppositions of
the liberal higher critics have their own fatal flaws, their subjective
nature sometimes makes them difficult to refute clearly. For example, a
common liberal presupposition is that Jesus Himself never claimed to be
God, so any deity statements attributed to Him in the Gospels must be
later composition inserted in His name. A discovery that depends, not
on changing theories of literary interpretation, but on empirical
evidence from paper, ink, and penmanship, would refute the liberal
theories with unmistakable finality.
I found another report of the discovery in a biblical archaeology
magazine and realized that, if it could be verified, it would provide
an even more important historical context for the New Testament than
that provided for the Old Testament by the 1948 discovery of the Dead
Sea Scrolls. This is because it affirms eyewitness authorship.
Carsten Peter Thiede's work first appeared in a professional journal
on which the London press reported. Shortly thereafter, Thiede
collaborated with Matthew d'Ancona, the London Times editor who broke
the story. The result is the very readable, clearly written Eyewitness
to Jesus. Although the book is not overtly a Bible apologetic, it
certainly lends itself to that. Those who want to learn more about this
fascinating subject will also appreciate the book's helpful
footnotes, glossary, and extensive bibliography.
In addition to Thiede's well-argued redating of the Matthew
fragments, chapter six, "Scribes and Christianity," contains
fascinating auxiliary information for understanding the literary and
historical background of the New Testament. In this chapter Thiede
discusses the multilingual society of first-century Israel; Jesus'
childhood exposure to Greek culture in Sepphoris, the capital of
Galilee, less than four miles from Nazareth; Jesus' use of Greek
literary terms; Jesus' and Paul's familiarity with Greek drama;
first-century scribal techniques; first-century "shorthand," especially
customary religious abbreviations called nomen sacrum; and a summary of
traditions regarding Peter's final days before his martyrdom. The
contents of this chapter alone will enrich anyone's understanding and
appreciation of the New Testament.
The Matthew fragments redated by Thiede are at Magdalen College
(Oxford). They are called The Magdalen Papyrus (listed as Greek 17 and
p64). There are three fragments written on both sides, together
representing 24 lines from Matthew 26:7-33. Two of the three fragments
are a little larger than 4 x 1 cm.; the other is smaller, 1.6 x 1.6 cm.
Another two fragments, located in Spain, are called the Barcelona
Papyrus (P. Barc. inv. 1/p67) and contain portions of Matthew 3:9, 15;
5:20-22, 25-28.
The Magdalen Papyrus surfaced in the modern world in 1901, when Charles
B. Huleatt purchased it from an antiquities dealer in Luxor, Egypt.
Nothing is known of the fragment's preservation before that time.
Huleatt donated the fragments to Magdalen College, where they were
given a cursory examination by Magdalen scholar Arthur Hunt, who
tentatively dated them to the fourth century. In 1953, Colin Roberts
redated the Magdalen Papyrus to the later second century and
established their connection to the Barcelona fragments.
More than 40 years later Thiede reexamined the fragments, using
state-of-the-art electronic scanners with close analysis of the
paper, ink, letter formation, line length, and other factors to redate
the fragments to around A.D. 60. Thiede's tests and skill appear to
be well within responsible papyrology, although his conclusions have
met with strong opposition from critics.
I have examined most of the critical articles and have found their
criticisms less convincing than Thiede's conclusions. A layperson's
paraphrase of one common criticism is that the papyrus must not be from
the first century because there weren't any codexes (book-leafs) in
first-century Jewish/Christian literature but only scrolls, even though
the papyrus has all of the physical characteristics of a first-century
document. As Thiede rightly points out, the argument against
first-century codexes is an argument from silence - of the small
percentage of recovered early manuscript portions, no indisputable
first-century codex portion has been identified. If, however, the
Magdalen/Barcelona codex is first century, then we do have an example
of a first-century codex. Moreover, if critical assumptions are
reconsidered, and cutting-edge papyrology tests are applied to other
previously dated fragments, we may well find other early examples of
codexes.
Time and careful scholarship will tell whether Thiede's redating is
sound. If it is (and the more I study the issue, the more confidence I
have in Thiede), we will have valuable affirmation of the eyewitness
nature of the Gospel records, the uninterrupted and unchanging
preservation of those testimonies, and our twentieth-century
inheritance of "the faith that God has once for all entrusted to the
saints" (Jude 3) by those who "did not follow cleverly invented
stories," but "were eyewitnesses of his majesty" (2 Pet. 1:16).
- Reviewed by Bob Passantino
.
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| User: "Bill M" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
25 Oct 2006 08:56:38 AM |
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'Experts' disagree as to when the Bibles were actually written. The dates
vary from 60 AD to 200 AD. In any case NONE of this substantiates the actual
existence of Jesus the Christ or authenticates he was some kind of God.
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@myway.com> wrote in message
news:1161771917.582500.4430@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
http://www.equip.org/free/DJ028.htm
BOOK REVIEWS
Eyewitness to Jesus:
Amazing New Manuscript Evidence about the Origin of the Gospels
by Carsten Peter Thiede and Matthew d'Ancona
When I first read in the Los Angeles Times in early 1995, that an
expert had reevaluated some papyrus fragments of the Gospel of Matthew
and dated them to the first century, I realized this could have
far-reaching ramifications for biblical scholarship. For the past two
centuries, liberal higher critics have used literary arguments and the
lack of manuscripts from the first century to support their assumption
that the Gospels were written long after the events they describe.
If hard artifacts verify the dating of Matthew's Gospel as far back
as A.D. 60, these artifacts would destroy the foundation of liberal
higher criticism. Since some of these same scholars argue that Mark
wrote the first Gospel, this discovery would push the composition of
Mark to within 20 years, at most, of the events his Gospel describes.
Taken together, the synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) and
Luke's second volume, Acts, would give us a record of the events of
Jesus' life, death, and resurrection indisputably written within the
lifetimes of those who were eyewitnesses and who, therefore, could have
disputed any untrue assertions. There would be no time for fabrications
to develop, no time for a "Jesus of faith" to replace the "Jesus of
history," no time for the church to evolve a supernatural story from a
simple inspiring teacher, and no time for Christians to transform
first-century events into second or third-century pseudohistory.
Although the literary arguments and philosophical presuppositions of
the liberal higher critics have their own fatal flaws, their subjective
nature sometimes makes them difficult to refute clearly. For example, a
common liberal presupposition is that Jesus Himself never claimed to be
God, so any deity statements attributed to Him in the Gospels must be
later composition inserted in His name. A discovery that depends, not
on changing theories of literary interpretation, but on empirical
evidence from paper, ink, and penmanship, would refute the liberal
theories with unmistakable finality.
I found another report of the discovery in a biblical archaeology
magazine and realized that, if it could be verified, it would provide
an even more important historical context for the New Testament than
that provided for the Old Testament by the 1948 discovery of the Dead
Sea Scrolls. This is because it affirms eyewitness authorship.
Carsten Peter Thiede's work first appeared in a professional journal
on which the London press reported. Shortly thereafter, Thiede
collaborated with Matthew d'Ancona, the London Times editor who broke
the story. The result is the very readable, clearly written Eyewitness
to Jesus. Although the book is not overtly a Bible apologetic, it
certainly lends itself to that. Those who want to learn more about this
fascinating subject will also appreciate the book's helpful
footnotes, glossary, and extensive bibliography.
In addition to Thiede's well-argued redating of the Matthew
fragments, chapter six, "Scribes and Christianity," contains
fascinating auxiliary information for understanding the literary and
historical background of the New Testament. In this chapter Thiede
discusses the multilingual society of first-century Israel; Jesus'
childhood exposure to Greek culture in Sepphoris, the capital of
Galilee, less than four miles from Nazareth; Jesus' use of Greek
literary terms; Jesus' and Paul's familiarity with Greek drama;
first-century scribal techniques; first-century "shorthand," especially
customary religious abbreviations called nomen sacrum; and a summary of
traditions regarding Peter's final days before his martyrdom. The
contents of this chapter alone will enrich anyone's understanding and
appreciation of the New Testament.
The Matthew fragments redated by Thiede are at Magdalen College
(Oxford). They are called The Magdalen Papyrus (listed as Greek 17 and
p64). There are three fragments written on both sides, together
representing 24 lines from Matthew 26:7-33. Two of the three fragments
are a little larger than 4 x 1 cm.; the other is smaller, 1.6 x 1.6 cm.
Another two fragments, located in Spain, are called the Barcelona
Papyrus (P. Barc. inv. 1/p67) and contain portions of Matthew 3:9, 15;
5:20-22, 25-28.
The Magdalen Papyrus surfaced in the modern world in 1901, when Charles
B. Huleatt purchased it from an antiquities dealer in Luxor, Egypt.
Nothing is known of the fragment's preservation before that time.
Huleatt donated the fragments to Magdalen College, where they were
given a cursory examination by Magdalen scholar Arthur Hunt, who
tentatively dated them to the fourth century. In 1953, Colin Roberts
redated the Magdalen Papyrus to the later second century and
established their connection to the Barcelona fragments.
More than 40 years later Thiede reexamined the fragments, using
state-of-the-art electronic scanners with close analysis of the
paper, ink, letter formation, line length, and other factors to redate
the fragments to around A.D. 60. Thiede's tests and skill appear to
be well within responsible papyrology, although his conclusions have
met with strong opposition from critics.
I have examined most of the critical articles and have found their
criticisms less convincing than Thiede's conclusions. A layperson's
paraphrase of one common criticism is that the papyrus must not be from
the first century because there weren't any codexes (book-leafs) in
first-century Jewish/Christian literature but only scrolls, even though
the papyrus has all of the physical characteristics of a first-century
document. As Thiede rightly points out, the argument against
first-century codexes is an argument from silence - of the small
percentage of recovered early manuscript portions, no indisputable
first-century codex portion has been identified. If, however, the
Magdalen/Barcelona codex is first century, then we do have an example
of a first-century codex. Moreover, if critical assumptions are
reconsidered, and cutting-edge papyrology tests are applied to other
previously dated fragments, we may well find other early examples of
codexes.
Time and careful scholarship will tell whether Thiede's redating is
sound. If it is (and the more I study the issue, the more confidence I
have in Thiede), we will have valuable affirmation of the eyewitness
nature of the Gospel records, the uninterrupted and unchanging
preservation of those testimonies, and our twentieth-century
inheritance of "the faith that God has once for all entrusted to the
saints" (Jude 3) by those who "did not follow cleverly invented
stories," but "were eyewitnesses of his majesty" (2 Pet. 1:16).
- Reviewed by Bob Passantino
.
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| User: "hippo" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
25 Oct 2006 11:31:23 AM |
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"Bill M" wrote in message
'Experts' disagree as to when the Bibles were actually written. The dates
vary from 60 AD to 200 AD. In any case NONE of this substantiates the
actual existence of Jesus the Christ or authenticates he was some kind of
God.
Except if the dating of the codex fragments is accurate, 60 CE would not be
the early date for the written NT, only the earliest example we have found.
As the NT was made up largely of letters of widely dispersed origins, it is
certain that the letters were in circulation for some time, if not decades,
before they were gathered together and copied into the codex format of which
this may not have been the earliest example. Any proof of an earlier origin
for the NT writings of the Apostles makes it more likely they are reporting
real events they witnessed, and for an audience which may also have been
witnesses.
Jerusalem was a small place in the third decade of the first century. The
walls built by Herod Agrippa were less than 4 miles in circumference
(Josephus) and contained between 30-45,000 people (modern estimates based on
density), which doubled for festivals. It is unlikely that any significant
event in the city would not have been common knowledge to the vast majority,
not unlike a small town today.
No, It's pretty clear there was an historical Galilean Rabbi called Jesus of
Nazareth who was crucified between 26 and 36 CE by the historical prefect
Pontius Pilate in league with the historical High Priest Joseph Caiaphas
(archaeologists found his tomb and Ossuary in 1990). Pilate was recalled to
Rome in 36 CE and died in exile in what is now Vienne, France, for abuses
during his prefectship. The rest, of course, is impossible to prove. -the
Troll
.
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
25 Oct 2006 12:15:19 PM |
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"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in
news:12jv4avahsib3e1@corp.supernews.com:
"Bill M" wrote in message
'Experts' disagree as to when the Bibles were actually written. The
dates vary from 60 AD to 200 AD. In any case NONE of this
substantiates the actual existence of Jesus the Christ or
authenticates he was some kind of God.
Except if the dating of the codex fragments is accurate, 60 CE would
not be the early date for the written NT, only the earliest example we
have found. As the NT was made up largely of letters of widely
dispersed origins, it is certain that the letters were in circulation
for some time, if not decades, before they were gathered together and
copied into the codex format of which this may not have been the
earliest example. Any proof of an earlier origin for the NT writings
of the Apostles makes it more likely they are reporting real events
they witnessed, and for an audience which may also have been
witnesses.
Jerusalem was a small place in the third decade of the first century.
The walls built by Herod Agrippa were less than 4 miles in
circumference (Josephus) and contained between 30-45,000 people
(modern estimates based on density), which doubled for festivals. It
is unlikely that any significant event in the city would not have been
common knowledge to the vast majority, not unlike a small town today.
I live outside a small village. Even with newspaper, telephone, cell
phone, morning coffee talks, TV (admittedly from a large city miles
away), much happens in the village about which many people know nothing.
I am still trying to find out what happened on the bridge which
required one ambulance and four police cars - no one knows. When I took
a detour around the bridge, three state police cars were pulled off the
road rather haphazardly some eight blocks or more from the bridge - no
staties in sight. No one has a clue what that one was about.
In a city of 30-45,000 residents.... sans modern communication
amenities.....I doubt news got around any better than in my small
village.
Pangur - nonchristian theist
No, It's pretty clear there was an historical Galilean Rabbi called
Jesus of Nazareth who was crucified between 26 and 36 CE by the
historical prefect Pontius Pilate in league with the historical High
Priest Joseph Caiaphas (archaeologists found his tomb and Ossuary in
1990). Pilate was recalled to Rome in 36 CE and died in exile in what
is now Vienne, France, for abuses during his prefectship. The rest,
of course, is impossible to prove. -the Troll
.
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| User: "hippo" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
25 Oct 2006 04:38:27 PM |
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"Pangur Ban" wrote in message
[.]
I live outside a small village. Even with newspaper, telephone, cell
phone, morning coffee talks, TV (admittedly from a large city miles
away), much happens in the village about which many people know nothing.
I am still trying to find out what happened on the bridge which
required one ambulance and four police cars - no one knows. When I took
a detour around the bridge, three state police cars were pulled off the
road rather haphazardly some eight blocks or more from the bridge - no
staties in sight. No one has a clue what that one was about.
In a city of 30-45,000 residents.... sans modern communication
amenities.....I doubt news got around any better than in my small
village.
If your town had an agora (market place), and you needed to shop for food
there every day, you would know far more about what was going on inside the
town. It would also help if hundreds of people you met there were your
relations and news from outside the town was rare. News becomes a social
stable. -the Troll
.
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
25 Oct 2006 06:30:13 PM |
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"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote in
news:12jvmam9pfmpq36@corp.supernews.com:
"Pangur Ban" wrote in message
[.]
I live outside a small village. Even with newspaper, telephone, cell
phone, morning coffee talks, TV (admittedly from a large city miles
away), much happens in the village about which many people know
nothing. I am still trying to find out what happened on the bridge
which required one ambulance and four police cars - no one knows.
When I took a detour around the bridge, three state police cars were
pulled off the road rather haphazardly some eight blocks or more from
the bridge - no staties in sight. No one has a clue what that one
was about.
In a city of 30-45,000 residents.... sans modern communication
amenities.....I doubt news got around any better than in my small
village.
If your town had an agora (market place), and you needed to shop for
food there every day, you would know far more about what was going on
inside the town.
It does, but I can't go every day. Larger towns had more than one
agora, one for each neighborhood. One might be aware of what was
happening in one's neighborhood - but not the entire city. Especially
when the affair concerned Romans and the Sanhedrin....far above the
common people's heads.
It would also help if hundreds of people you met there were your
relations and news from outside the town was rare.
And news from other neighborhoods was equally rare.
News becomes a social stable. -the Troll
.
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| User: "Neil Kelsey" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
25 Oct 2006 06:56:45 PM |
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hippo wrote:
"Pangur Ban" wrote in message
[.]
I live outside a small village. Even with newspaper, telephone, cell
phone, morning coffee talks, TV (admittedly from a large city miles
away), much happens in the village about which many people know nothing.
I am still trying to find out what happened on the bridge which
required one ambulance and four police cars - no one knows. When I took
a detour around the bridge, three state police cars were pulled off the
road rather haphazardly some eight blocks or more from the bridge - no
staties in sight. No one has a clue what that one was about.
In a city of 30-45,000 residents.... sans modern communication
amenities.....I doubt news got around any better than in my small
village.
If your town had an agora (market place), and you needed to shop for food
there every day, you would know far more about what was going on inside the
town. It would also help if hundreds of people you met there were your
relations and news from outside the town was rare. News becomes a social
stable. -the Troll
You're grasping at straws. People haven't changed much. People tend to
run in small cliques. No one has time to talk to hundreds of people.
Most people aren't interested anyway. A lot of people aren't all that
social. A lot of people don't really care what the local news is. Word
of mouth news gets distorted. All they had 2000 years ago was word of
mouth. Lots of people don't believe in religion anyway, even back then,
and probably avoided talking about it lest the zealots do them harm. It
is totally plausible that the "Son of God" came and went and barely
made a ripple, but like so many other events, he got mythologized over
time. If he existed at all (and I tend to think he did, but he was far
short of divine- I suspect he was mentally ill).
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
25 Oct 2006 04:03:24 PM |
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Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Pangur Ban (Pangur-Ban
$@worldnet.att.net) made the light shine upon us with this:
I live outside a small village. Even with newspaper, telephone, cell
phone, morning coffee talks, TV (admittedly from a large city miles
away), much happens in the village about which many people know nothing.
I am still trying to find out what happened on the bridge which
required one ambulance and four police cars - no one knows. When I took
a detour around the bridge, three state police cars were pulled off the
road rather haphazardly some eight blocks or more from the bridge - no
staties in sight. No one has a clue what that one was about.
In a city of 30-45,000 residents.... sans modern communication
amenities.....I doubt news got around any better than in my small
village.
This would be an excellent cite as to why it should not only be acceptable,
but necessary to pray to god for Jesus to appear before each of us in the
flesh, to prove his existence to us since we all missed it the first time
around, and the stories believers tell us are rather, well, unbelievable.
I mean, that would do it for me. An appearance and a miracle. Should be
no problem for an omnipotent and omnipresent god like Jesus, eh?
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Plonked by Kadaitcha Man
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| User: "Pangur Ban" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
25 Oct 2006 07:08:23 PM |
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Uncle Vic <address@withheld.com> wrote in
news:Xns98678EFE1343Fvicman@66.75.164.119:
Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Pangur Ban (Pangur-Ban
$@worldnet.att.net) made the light shine upon us with this:
I live outside a small village. Even with newspaper, telephone, cell
phone, morning coffee talks, TV (admittedly from a large city miles
away), much happens in the village about which many people know
nothing.
I am still trying to find out what happened on the bridge which
required one ambulance and four police cars - no one knows. When I
took a detour around the bridge, three state police cars were pulled
off the road rather haphazardly some eight blocks or more from the
bridge - no staties in sight. No one has a clue what that one was
about.
In a city of 30-45,000 residents.... sans modern communication
amenities.....I doubt news got around any better than in my small
village.
This would be an excellent cite as to why it should not only be
acceptable, but necessary to pray to god for Jesus to appear before
each of us in the flesh, to prove his existence to us since we all
missed it the first time around, and the stories believers tell us are
rather, well, unbelievable.
I mean, that would do it for me. An appearance and a miracle. Should
be no problem for an omnipotent and omnipresent god like Jesus, eh?
Only if Jesus really existed (questionable) and only if he were a
god.... absolutely not! Gee, making all those personal appearances
would really wear out a real god even!
Pangur - nonchristian theist
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
25 Oct 2006 03:28:02 PM |
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 12:31:23 -0400, "hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net>
wrote:
Except if the dating of the codex fragments is accurate, 60 CE would not be
the early date for the written NT, only the earliest example we have found.
As the NT was made up largely of letters of widely dispersed origins, it is
certain that the letters were in circulation for some time, if not decades,
before they were gathered together and copied into the codex format of which
this may not have been the earliest example. Any proof of an earlier origin
for the NT writings of the Apostles makes it more likely they are reporting
real events they witnessed, and for an audience which may also have been
witnesses.
There's nothing in writing referring to a human being named Yeshua who
was the only begotten son of God until the 2nd century. (Mentions of
the anointed ones in the early first century don't refer to one man.)
Jerusalem was a small place in the third decade of the first century. The
walls built by Herod Agrippa were less than 4 miles in circumference
(Josephus) and contained between 30-45,000 people (modern estimates based on
density), which doubled for festivals. It is unlikely that any significant
event in the city would not have been common knowledge to the vast majority,
not unlike a small town today.
So it's unlikely that no one would have written about an itinerant
preacher feeding the multitudes from a limited food supply. But
there's no contemporaneous mention.
No, It's pretty clear there was an historical Galilean Rabbi called Jesus of
Nazareth
Nonsense. He was called Yeshua the NAZORITE - that had nothing to do
with a place. That it was later mistranslated to Nazarene has nothing
to do with the original (and probably totally made up) title.
Especially since the spot on which the town stands was a cemetery
2,000 years ago.
who was crucified between 26 and 36 CE by the historical prefect
Pontius Pilate
There are so many things wrong with the story that if you were to read
a modern news article with that many glaring errors you'd wonder if it
was April 1st or if the publisher had lost his mind.
The date of the crucifixion was completely wrong for a solar eclipse,
even if we don't look to see if there was one on that date. (We know
the exact date - it was fixed by the first night of Passover.)
Common thieves were NOT crucified - that would be like the death
penalty for illegal parking today. You wouldn't accept such a glaring
error in an account of today, so why accept such an error in the
Bible?
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"We should do unto others as we would want them to do unto us. If I were an unborn
fetus I would want others to use force to protect me, therefore using force against
abortionists is *justifiable homocide*."
- "Pro-Life" doctor killer and corpse Paul Hill
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "hippo" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
25 Oct 2006 06:07:43 PM |
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"Al Klein" wrote in message
"hippo" wrote:
Except if the dating of the codex fragments is accurate, 60 CE would not
be
the early date for the written NT, only the earliest example we have
found.
As the NT was made up largely of letters of widely dispersed origins, it
is
certain that the letters were in circulation for some time, if not
decades,
before they were gathered together and copied into the codex format of
which
this may not have been the earliest example. Any proof of an earlier
origin
for the NT writings of the Apostles makes it more likely they are
reporting
real events they witnessed, and for an audience which may also have been
witnesses.
There's nothing in writing referring to a human being named Yeshua who
was the only begotten son of God until the 2nd century. (Mentions of
the anointed ones in the early first century don't refer to one man.)
I'm talking only about the historic Jesus here, not what the later Church
made of him.
Jerusalem was a small place in the third decade of the first century. The
walls built by Herod Agrippa were less than 4 miles in circumference
(Josephus) and contained between 30-45,000 people (modern estimates based
on
density), which doubled for festivals. It is unlikely that any significant
event in the city would not have been common knowledge to the vast
majority,
not unlike a small town today.
So it's unlikely that no one would have written about an itinerant
preacher feeding the multitudes from a limited food supply. But
there's no contemporaneous mention.
Very little was written down in those days and that's why re-dating the
fragment of Matthew is so important. Until 1961 the existence of a Roman
prefect named Pontius Pilate was in doubt. Since the find of the monumental
inscription in Caesarea Maratima it is no longer in question.
No, It's pretty clear there was an historical Galilean Rabbi called Jesus
of
Nazareth
Nonsense. He was called Yeshua the NAZORITE - that had nothing to do
with a place. That it was later mistranslated to Nazarene has nothing
to do with the original (and probably totally made up) title.
Especially since the spot on which the town stands was a cemetery
2,000 years ago.
That is also opinion.
who was crucified between 26 and 36 CE by the historical prefect
Pontius Pilate
There are so many things wrong with the story that if you were to read
a modern news article with that many glaring errors you'd wonder if it
was April 1st or if the publisher had lost his mind.
The date of the crucifixion was completely wrong for a solar eclipse,
even if we don't look to see if there was one on that date. (We know
the exact date - it was fixed by the first night of Passover.)
Common thieves were NOT crucified - that would be like the death
penalty for illegal parking today. You wouldn't accept such a glaring
error in an account of today, so why accept such an error in the
Bible?
According to the NT Jesus was not crucified for common thievery. Crucifixion
was a death reserved for low-status enemies of the State (and others).
The inclusive dates 26-36 CE are the only period the named High Priest and
Roman prefect could have worked in concert. Pilate took up his prefecture in
26 and was relieved in 36. The NT says the crucifixion occurred during
Passover. It was one of the few times each year Pilate came to Jerusalem
with troops from Caesarea. The NT refers to Pilate as a procurator. The
title of the principle Roman magistrate in Judea wasn't changed from prefect
to procurator until 44 CE, so it is likely the NT wasn't written down until
after that date. There are not many good hard dates to go on, but the NT
wasn't written as an historical document. -the Troll
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
25 Oct 2006 07:35:07 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:07:43 -0400, "hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net>
wrote:
"Al Klein" wrote in message
"hippo" wrote:
Except if the dating of the codex fragments is accurate, 60 CE would not
be
the early date for the written NT, only the earliest example we have
found.
As the NT was made up largely of letters of widely dispersed origins, it
is
certain that the letters were in circulation for some time, if not
decades,
before they were gathered together and copied into the codex format of
which
this may not have been the earliest example. Any proof of an earlier
origin
for the NT writings of the Apostles makes it more likely they are
reporting
real events they witnessed, and for an audience which may also have been
witnesses.
There's nothing in writing referring to a human being named Yeshua who
was the only begotten son of God until the 2nd century. (Mentions of
the anointed ones in the early first century don't refer to one man.)
I'm talking only about the historic Jesus here, not what the later Church
made of him.
ANY Jesus that was a man, not Paul's spirit. No mention in writing
until the latter part of the 2nd century.
Jerusalem was a small place in the third decade of the first century. The
walls built by Herod Agrippa were less than 4 miles in circumference
(Josephus) and contained between 30-45,000 people (modern estimates based
on
density), which doubled for festivals. It is unlikely that any significant
event in the city would not have been common knowledge to the vast
majority,
not unlike a small town today.
So it's unlikely that no one would have written about an itinerant
preacher feeding the multitudes from a limited food supply. But
there's no contemporaneous mention.
Very little was written down in those days
Which is why we have mentions of Jesus all over the place starting
with the 2nd century but no historians writing in the 1st century
mention Jesus. Not even Josephus, who was closest n time to the
supposed events.
Plenty of mentions of anointed ones, though, which fits perfectly with
Salvation Judaism, whose members were the Chreestos. Then the 2nd
century comes along and "Christianity" steals all the trappings of
Judaism it wants, but leaves behind those it doesn't want (Leviticus,
circumcision, etc.) and lo! and behold, the anointed one*S* become a
Jewish anointed *ONE*, the Mithras-like god-who-walks-like-a-man, born
on Mithras' birthday, December 25th and resurrected on Oestre's day.
Did we leave out any religion we can convert?
and that's why re-dating the
fragment of Matthew is so important. Until 1961 the existence of a Roman
prefect named Pontius Pilate was in doubt. Since the find of the monumental
inscription in Caesarea Maratima it is no longer in question.
The fact that Pilate existed isn't evidence that anyone named Jesus
existed. Superman Comics has the names of the presidents correct. So
Clark really IS Superman? (It even has the dates of the wars correct
to the day.)
No, It's pretty clear there was an historical Galilean Rabbi called Jesus
of
Nazareth
Nonsense. He was called Yeshua the NAZORITE - that had nothing to do
with a place. That it was later mistranslated to Nazarene has nothing
to do with the original (and probably totally made up) title.
Especially since the spot on which the town stands was a cemetery
2,000 years ago.
That is also opinion.
Now you're claiming that myth is more important than documentation?
When you just told us how important documentation is?
Why would he be called Nazarene, after a town that didn't exist at the
time he was supposed to have come from it? It would be like calling
George Washington a San Franciscan. You can't come from a place that
only exists because you were supposed to come from it.
According to the NT Jesus was not crucified for common thievery.
According to the Bible, the guy on the next cross was.
Crucifixion was a death reserved for low-status enemies of the State (and others).
Not for common thieves. Whoever wrote the story wasn't familiar with
Roman law. That's why authors are always told to write what they know
about. If you write about something you don't know about you make
mistakes that are caught by people who DO know about those things.
The inclusive dates 26-36 CE are the only period the named High Priest and
Roman prefect could have worked in concert. Pilate took up his prefecture in
26 and was relieved in 36. The NT says the crucifixion occurred during
Passover.
And there was a solar eclipse. Physically impossible.
It was one of the few times each year Pilate came to Jerusalem
with troops from Caesarea. The NT refers to Pilate as a procurator. The
title of the principle Roman magistrate in Judea wasn't changed from prefect
to procurator until 44 CE, so it is likely the NT wasn't written down until
after that date.
It's almost certain that the Gospels weren't written in the 1st
century. Paul could also be 2nd century - there's no strong evidence
either way.
There are not many good hard dates to go on, but the NT
wasn't written as an historical document.
Then it shouldn't have made historical claims, should it have? Claimed
facts are too easy to disprove. Jesus was born on December 25th,
while the shepherds had their flocks out, which they don't do in
winter? He came from Nazareth at a time there had never been a
Nazareth, but the place it supposedly existed was a cemetery? There
was a solar eclipse at the wrong time of the month? You make claims
that are made up and you get a few wrong. You put in exact dates or
locations and you hang yourself.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Christianity has already had the chance to govern
the world according to its own ethical standards.
It was called the "Dark Ages".
- Bill, The Avender
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
.
|
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| User: "hippo" |
|
| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
25 Oct 2006 09:28:15 PM |
|
|
"Al Klein" wrote in message
"hippo" wrote:
[.]
There's nothing in writing referring to a human being named Yeshua who
was the only begotten son of God until the 2nd century. (Mentions of
the anointed ones in the early first century don't refer to one man.)
I'm talking only about the historic Jesus here, not what the later Church
made of him.
ANY Jesus that was a man, not Paul's spirit. No mention in writing
until the latter part of the 2nd century.
No mention outside the NT you mean? The date of the Gospels is what the
original post brings into question. The fragments were first dated to the
forth century, then later the second. Now it seems they may date to the
earlier first century.
[.]
So it's unlikely that no one would have written about an itinerant
preacher feeding the multitudes from a limited food supply. But
there's no contemporaneous mention.
Very little was written down in those days
Which is why we have mentions of Jesus all over the place starting
with the 2nd century but no historians writing in the 1st century
mention Jesus. Not even Josephus, who was closest n time to the
supposed events.
That's because the Christian community was insignificant until the second
century. Josephus doesn't mention them because they were under his radar,
even as a sect of Judaism. If you've read Josephus you know he was
preocupied with politics.
Plenty of mentions of anointed ones, though, which fits perfectly with
Salvation Judaism, whose members were the Chreestos. Then the 2nd
century comes along and "Christianity" steals all the trappings of
Judaism it wants, but leaves behind those it doesn't want (Leviticus,
circumcision, etc.) and lo! and behold, the anointed one*S* become a
Jewish anointed *ONE*, the Mithras-like god-who-walks-like-a-man, born
on Mithras' birthday, December 25th and resurrected on Oestre's day.
Did we leave out any religion we can convert?
You are talking about the later Church. I'm talking about the earliest
Patristic Period, which assigned no birth date for Jesus.
and that's why re-dating the
fragment of Matthew is so important. Until 1961 the existence of a Roman
prefect named Pontius Pilate was in doubt. Since the find of the
monumental
inscription in Caesarea Maratima it is no longer in question.
The fact that Pilate existed isn't evidence that anyone named Jesus
existed. Superman Comics has the names of the presidents correct. So
Clark really IS Superman? (It even has the dates of the wars correct
to the day.)
That's right, it isn't. Until '61, however, it was an argument made by
secularists. Now it can't be.
No, It's pretty clear there was an historical Galilean Rabbi called
Jesus
of
Nazareth
Nonsense. He was called Yeshua the NAZORITE - that had nothing to do
with a place. That it was later mistranslated to Nazarene has nothing
to do with the original (and probably totally made up) title.
Especially since the spot on which the town stands was a cemetery
2,000 years ago.
That is also opinion.
Now you're claiming that myth is more important than documentation?
When you just told us how important documentation is?
Why would he be called Nazarene, after a town that didn't exist at the
time he was supposed to have come from it? It would be like calling
George Washington a San Franciscan. You can't come from a place that
only exists because you were supposed to come from it.
The Hahoresh burials are miles away from modern Nazareth and were not used
later than the earliest Neolithic. The lack of early Roman remains at
modern Nazareth and lack of mention in Jewish literature is easily explained
by its insignificance. It may have been no more than a crossroad or a farm,
and need not be under or adjacent to the modern town.
According to the NT Jesus was not crucified for common thievery.
According to the Bible, the guy on the next cross was.
Crucifixion was a death reserved for low-status enemies of the State (and
others).
Not for common thieves. Whoever wrote the story wasn't familiar with
Roman law. That's why authors are always told to write what they know
about. If you write about something you don't know about you make
mistakes that are caught by people who DO know about those things.
Roman law had nothing to do with it. The Roman prefect was executing a
sentence given under Judean law by Judean authorities. That's the way it
worked in subject lands. Roman law only applied to Roman citizens and in
cases of treason against the Roman State.
The inclusive dates 26-36 CE are the only period the named High Priest and
Roman prefect could have worked in concert. Pilate took up his prefecture
in
26 and was relieved in 36. The NT says the crucifixion occurred during
Passover.
And there was a solar eclipse. Physically impossible.
It was one of the few times each year Pilate came to Jerusalem
with troops from Caesarea. The NT refers to Pilate as a procurator. The
title of the principle Roman magistrate in Judea wasn't changed from
prefect
to procurator until 44 CE, so it is likely the NT wasn't written down
until
after that date.
It's almost certain that the Gospels weren't written in the 1st
century. Paul could also be 2nd century - there's no strong evidence
either way.
....unless the re-dating of the Matthew fragments is true and why it is so
important.
There are not many good hard dates to go on, but the NT
wasn't written as an historical document.
Then it shouldn't have made historical claims, should it have? Claimed
facts are too easy to disprove. Jesus was born on December 25th,
while the shepherds had their flocks out, which they don't do in
winter? He came from Nazareth at a time there had never been a
Nazareth, but the place it supposedly existed was a cemetery? There
was a solar eclipse at the wrong time of the month? You make claims
that are made up and you get a few wrong. You put in exact dates or
locations and you hang yourself.
Strictly speaking the NT wasn't even written to form the basis of a
religion. Much of it is letters written to individual Christian
congregations for encouragement. It has been said that the Apostles would
have been horrified at the idea their writings would be maintained for 2000
years as they were never intended for that purpose. The NT doesn't pretend
to be history. The writers were writing for a contemporary audience. -the
Troll
.
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| User: "Kendall K. Down" |
|
| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
26 Oct 2006 01:31:17 AM |
|
|
In message <12k07a38h6crb2f@corp.supernews.com>
"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:
The Hahoresh burials are miles away from modern Nazareth and were not used
later than the earliest Neolithic. The lack of early Roman remains at
modern Nazareth and lack of mention in Jewish literature is easily explained
by its insignificance. It may have been no more than a crossroad or a farm,
and need not be under or adjacent to the modern town.
The previous lack of Roman remains is due to the fact that the modern city
is built over the site of the old one and that always complicates
archaeological investigations. Jerusalem is plagued by it, so is Sidon, to
mention just two examples. However about two years ago a couple digging a
new cellar in the basement of their shop found remains and called in the
archaeologists who uncovered a large Roman bath house dating from the time
of Christ, so large that the experts suggest that Nazareth must have housed
a largish Roman garrison to make use of it.
A subscription to Archaeological Diggings will enable you (and others) to
keep abreast of the latest discoveries in the Middle East.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
.
|
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| User: "hippo" |
|
| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
26 Oct 2006 02:29:00 PM |
|
|
"Kendall K. Down" wrote in message
In message "hippo" wrote:
The Hahoresh burials are miles away from modern Nazareth and were not
used
later than the earliest Neolithic. The lack of early Roman remains at
modern Nazareth and lack of mention in Jewish literature is easily
explained
by its insignificance. It may have been no more than a crossroad or a
farm,
and need not be under or adjacent to the modern town.
The previous lack of Roman remains is due to the fact that the modern city
is built over the site of the old one and that always complicates
archaeological investigations. Jerusalem is plagued by it, so is Sidon, to
mention just two examples. However about two years ago a couple digging a
new cellar in the basement of their shop found remains and called in the
archaeologists who uncovered a large Roman bath house dating from the time
of Christ, so large that the experts suggest that Nazareth must have
housed
a largish Roman garrison to make use of it.
The last I read about the Nazareth hypocaust was that preliminary dating was
from the mid-first century and too late for our subject. You are right about
the difficulties of modern structures. -the Troll
.
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| User: "Kendall K. Down" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
27 Oct 2006 01:59:31 AM |
|
|
In message <12k234029nrrg4c@corp.supernews.com>
"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:
The last I read about the Nazareth hypocaust was that preliminary dating was
from the mid-first century and too late for our subject. You are right about
the difficulties of modern structures. -the Troll
Mid-first century is about 50 AD, right? But unless you are proposing that
someone got the bright idea of plonking a big bath house down in a green
field site miles from the nearest centre of habitation, the bath house is
evidence that Nazareth existed well before that. After all, I can think of
more essential buildings in a town than a bath house - houses, for one
thing.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
.
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| User: "hippo" |
|
| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
28 Oct 2006 06:12:36 PM |
|
|
"Kendall K. Down" wrote in message
In message "hippo" wrote:
The last I read about the Nazareth hypocaust was that preliminary dating
was
from the mid-first century and too late for our subject. You are right
about
the difficulties of modern structures. -the Troll
Mid-first century is about 50 AD, right? But unless you are proposing that
someone got the bright idea of plonking a big bath house down in a green
field site miles from the nearest centre of habitation, the bath house is
evidence that Nazareth existed well before that. After all, I can think of
more essential buildings in a town than a bath house - houses, for one
thing.
The Romans moved garrisons overnight and to wherever they were needed when
they were needed. They more often than not preferred a lightly inhabited
site for large formations. Then there is the problem of the name not
appearing in earlier Jewish literature. It may have had a different name, or
have been built nearby. We simply won't know without more work in the field.
Jumping to conclusions either way does no service to the study of
history. -the Troll
.
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| User: "Kendall K. Down" |
|
| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
29 Oct 2006 02:31:03 AM |
|
|
In message <12k7ov8k246g3a3@corp.supernews.com>
"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:
The Romans moved garrisons overnight and to wherever they were needed when
they were needed. They more often than not preferred a lightly inhabited
site for large formations. Then there is the problem of the name not
appearing in earlier Jewish literature. It may have had a different name, or
have been built nearby. We simply won't know without more work in the field.
Jumping to conclusions either way does no service to the study of
history. -the Troll
The Romans did indeed move their military around - but they didn't build big
bath houses in every over-night camp. That is the point. As for the name not
appearing in Jewish literature, why would the Jews talk about a Roman
garrison town? However I agree with you on the need for more archaeological
work. I was merely pointing out that Nazareth is not as big a black hole in
our knowledge as some people think: new discoveries are being made
constantly, for which we are grateful - it keeps our magazine full.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
.
|
|
|
| User: "hippo" |
|
| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
29 Oct 2006 06:04:24 PM |
|
|
"Kendall K. Down" wrote in message
In message "hippo" wrote:
The Romans moved garrisons overnight and to wherever they were needed
when
they were needed. They more often than not preferred a lightly inhabited
site for large formations. Then there is the problem of the name not
appearing in earlier Jewish literature. It may have had a different name,
or
have been built nearby. We simply won't know without more work in the
field.
Jumping to conclusions either way does no service to the study of
history. -the Troll
The Romans did indeed move their military around - but they didn't build
big
bath houses in every over-night camp. That is the point. As for the name
not
appearing in Jewish literature, why would the Jews talk about a Roman
garrison town? However I agree with you on the need for more
archaeological
work. I was merely pointing out that Nazareth is not as big a black hole
in
our knowledge as some people think: new discoveries are being made
constantly, for which we are grateful - it keeps our magazine full.
That's right, the minimum size for a large bath house in the west would have
been a full legion. In the East, perhaps for smaller formations and, as you
say, only when the formation's base was moved for a projected stay of years.
The problem with a large military base in the Galilee is camp remains are
usually easily spotted from the air and Roman camps invariably generated a
vicus, or supporting town, which would have been noteworthy in the
literature of the time if for no other reason than trade.
There has been a great deal of research done by Roman military specialist
historians and numismatists. These guys have established accurate records of
unit basing even down to detached vellexations and units of mercenary
foederati. The record is far from complete, but a great deal is known,
especially for the first century. It would surprise me if most of the unit
locations for the Middle East were not known. This is a good site locating
the legions over history:
http://www.romancoins.info/Legionen052001.pdf
You can see the local legionary candidates, X Fretensis, XII Fulminata, VI
Ferrata (Raphanea), and III Gallicia (Emesa) are mostly located, the first
two are likely candidates. Several of the Cohorts of X Fretensis were
stationed at Cyrrhus, but the reenacting group calling themselves the IV
Cohort of Legio X Fretensis believes their 'parent' was partly used in
Jerusalem at the time of Pilate. XII Fulminata, although also based at
Raphanea with III Gallicia, was often used in Jerusalem and later based
there. Raphanea is on the other side of the Sea of Galilee. Most of the
troops at the direct disposal of Pilate based at Caesarea were Auxilia and
less well known. -the Troll
.
|
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| User: "Kendall K. Down" |
|
| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
30 Oct 2006 01:48:20 AM |
|
|
In message <12kagcaaerruaf@corp.supernews.com>
"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:
That's right, the minimum size for a large bath house in the west would have
been a full legion. In the East, perhaps for smaller formations and, as you
say, only when the formation's base was moved for a projected stay of years.
The problem with a large military base in the Galilee is camp remains are
usually easily spotted from the air and Roman camps invariably generated a
vicus, or supporting town, which would have been noteworthy in the
literature of the time if for no other reason than trade.
There has been a great deal of research done by Roman military specialist
historians and numismatists. These guys have established accurate records of
unit basing even down to detached vellexations and units of mercenary
foederati. The record is far from complete, but a great deal is known,
especially for the first century. It would surprise me if most of the unit
locations for the Middle East were not known. This is a good site locating
the legions over history:
http://www.romancoins.info/Legionen052001.pdf
You are, of course, completely correct, but there are other possible
explanations. For example, only recently a site has been excavated on the
slopes of Mt Carmel which turns out to be an amazing resort for the nearby
seaside town of Caesarea. Not only have the archaeologists uncovered an
enormous bath house, but evidence for scantily clad women (it's not often
that archaeologists are able to include such a subject in their reports and
you can just see their imaginations going into overdrive!) and other
entertainments.
Nazareth is set high above the Plain of Jezreel and is convenient for
Galilee and the Rift Valley. I wonder if the bath house was part of a
similar R&R establishment, which could be why it had such a reputation ("Can
any good thing come out of Nazareth?") and why no evidence, literary or
archaeological, of a fort has been found yet.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
.
|
|
|
| User: "hippo" |
|
| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
30 Oct 2006 02:58:34 PM |
|
|
"Kendall K. Down" wrote in message
In message "hippo" wrote:
That's right, the minimum size for a large bath house in the west would
have
been a full legion. In the East, perhaps for smaller formations and, as
you
say, only when the formation's base was moved for a projected stay of
years.
The problem with a large military base in the Galilee is camp remains are
usually easily spotted from the air and Roman camps invariably generated
a
vicus, or supporting town, which would have been noteworthy in the
literature of the time if for no other reason than trade.
There has been a great deal of research done by Roman military specialist
historians and numismatists. These guys have established accurate records
of
unit basing even down to detached vellexations and units of mercenary
foederati. The record is far from complete, but a great deal is known,
especially for the first century. It would surprise me if most of the
unit
locations for the Middle East were not known. This is a good site
locating
the legions over history:
http://www.romancoins.info/Legionen052001.pdf
You are, of course, completely correct, but there are other possible
explanations. For example, only recently a site has been excavated on the
slopes of Mt Carmel which turns out to be an amazing resort for the nearby
seaside town of Caesarea. Not only have the archaeologists uncovered an
enormous bath house, but evidence for scantily clad women (it's not often
that archaeologists are able to include such a subject in their reports
and
you can just see their imaginations going into overdrive!) and other
entertainments.
Nazareth is set high above the Plain of Jezreel and is convenient for
Galilee and the Rift Valley. I wonder if the bath house was part of a
similar R&R establishment, which could be why it had such a reputation
("Can
any good thing come out of Nazareth?") and why no evidence, literary or
archaeological, of a fort has been found yet.
That's right, there are other military possibilities too. Many of the troops
stationed in the ME were Auxillia. Perhaps, as the political situation
deteriorated, the Romans created a base for odd bits of troop formations
closer than Syria. What is missing is the logical layout of anything Roman
military. -the Troll
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| User: "Kendall K. Down" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
31 Oct 2006 03:19:24 AM |
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In message <12kcprsd0ld9rf3@corp.supernews.com>
"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:
That's right, there are other military possibilities too. Many of the troops
stationed in the ME were Auxillia. Perhaps, as the political situation
deteriorated, the Romans created a base for odd bits of troop formations
closer than Syria. What is missing is the logical layout of anything Roman
military. -the Troll
It could be missing because it isn't there, or it could be missing because
virtually none of Nazareth has been excavated.
Me? I'm keeping an open mind.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
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| User: "hippo" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
01 Nov 2006 11:17:06 AM |
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"Kendall K. Down" wrote in message
In message "hippo" wrote:
That's right, there are other military possibilities too. Many of the
troops
stationed in the ME were Auxillia. Perhaps, as the political situation
deteriorated, the Romans created a base for odd bits of troop formations
closer than Syria. What is missing is the logical layout of anything
Roman
military. -the Troll
It could be missing because it isn't there, or it could be missing because
virtually none of Nazareth has been excavated.
Me? I'm keeping an open mind.
Yup, you've got to do that, but experience has shown us that ancient Roman
military remains were usually re-used by overbuilding, leaving at least a
partial grid pattern to subsequent construction, or the camp defensive walls
will leave some kind of visible angular remnant in profile or as crop marks
in the soil. Roman military camps are so distinctive their remains are hard
to miss. We have been uncovering even march camps all over western Europe.
Has the possibility of a substantial Roman villa been examined? -the Troll
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| User: "Kendall K. Down" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
01 Nov 2006 04:32:16 PM |
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In message <12khlkk6hrs6797@corp.supernews.com>
"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:
Yup, you've got to do that, but experience has shown us that ancient Roman
military remains were usually re-used by overbuilding, leaving at least a
partial grid pattern to subsequent construction, or the camp defensive walls
will leave some kind of visible angular remnant in profile or as crop marks
in the soil. Roman military camps are so distinctive their remains are hard
to miss. We have been uncovering even march camps all over western Europe.
Has the possibility of a substantial Roman villa been examined? -the Troll
Unfortunately there has been no "examination" at all. The remains of the
bathhouse were found in the cellar of an antiquities shop and unless the
owners of the adjacent shops give permission to have their cellars dug up,
that is as far as the archaeologists can go.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
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| User: "hippo" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
02 Nov 2006 11:08:00 AM |
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"Kendall K. Down" wrote in message
In message "hippo" wrote:
Yup, you've got to do that, but experience has shown us that ancient
Roman
military remains were usually re-used by overbuilding, leaving at least a
partial grid pattern to subsequent construction, or the camp defensive
walls
will leave some kind of visible angular remnant in profile or as crop
marks
in the soil. Roman military camps are so distinctive their remains are
hard
to miss. We have been uncovering even march camps all over western
Europe.
Has the possibility of a substantial Roman villa been examined? -the
Troll
Unfortunately there has been no "examination" at all. The remains of the
bathhouse were found in the cellar of an antiquities shop and unless the
owners of the adjacent shops give permission to have their cellars dug up,
that is as far as the archaeologists can go.
You're right and at the moment it would be dangerous as well. Israel, I'm
sure, isn't supportive of archaeologists working at Nazareth and the Muslims
certainly are not. -the Troll
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| User: "Kendall K. Down" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
02 Nov 2006 11:40:18 AM |
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In message <12kk9fih3oivbb5@corp.supernews.com>
"hippo" <hippo@south-sudan.net> wrote:
You're right and at the moment it would be dangerous as well. Israel, I'm
sure, isn't supportive of archaeologists working at Nazareth and the Muslims
certainly are not. -the Troll
Hmmmm. We were in Nazareth in May and there was no atmosphere of strain or
tension. (There has been, of course.) Everyone smiling and friendly.
We didn't try digging, of course.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
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| User: "hippo" |
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| Title: Re: Eyewitness To Jesus: Amazing New Manuscript Evidence About The Origin Of The Gospels |
03 Nov 2006 09:47:38 AM |
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"Kendall K. Down" wrote in message
In message "hippo" wrote:
You're right and at the moment it would be dangerous as well. Israel, I'm
sure, isn't supportive of archaeologists working at Nazareth and the
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