In article <1132365443.932404.276280@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Katherine O'Flaherty <2.8.1855@safe-mail.net> wrote:

osprey wrote:

"Katherine O'Flaherty" <2.8.1855@safe-mail.net> wrote in message
news:1132361847.252523.219940@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

osprey wrote:

"Katherine O'Flaherty" <2.8.1855@safe-mail.net> wrote in message
news:1132353460.407982.65950@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Denis Loubet wrote:

I object to the characterization of a one in a million event as a
"regular
basis". What would it take for an event to be NOT on a regular basis?

Indeed. Childbirth, however, does far more damage--more permanent
damage while the pregnant woman manages to escape death--than abortion
could ever do.

How many women died in the US last year as a result of childbirth?
How many women gave childbirth in the US last year?

You've seen the same statistics as have I. And you know well as I do
that (legal and relatively safe) abortion is far less dangerous than
childbirth.

But you see one difference between you and I is this.

There is clearly a difference--and you'll not like it when you see it.

Sic'em.

I don't use that as an excuse to accept abortion.

I don't, either--because, unlike you, what the woman chooses (legally)
is HER business.

You got it.

If I am not the pregnant one, I have no right to extend my preferred
choice onto the one who is pregnant.

He feels HE knows better. (Maybe it is his narrow pelvis that makes
him smarter than you.)

Most women, I would hope, realize the risk and dangers associated with
childbirth.
And I would hope that they get the best prenatal care possible.
And I would hope they don't increase the risk with alchohol and drug use.

All sane people hope the best for pregnant women.

Osprey feels that stating the obvious gets him points.

It's like driving a car, we know the risk so we take the precautions
necessary.
Wearing a seatbelt, driving the speed limit, obeying the laws, and not
driving while intoxicated.

Have you ever experienced had an "oops"--or a failure of birth
control--or a situation where you were raped or forced into sex for
something, and the end result was an unexpected, even unwanted,
pregnancy?

He has one child, a boy, less than a year old that was an "oops."
There is another on the way. He says they were "unexpected." (He
makes it sound like he was banging pots and pans in the back yard to
keep the stork away but somehow two got by him.)

A lot of pro-choice use this argument as a "scare tactic".

The statistics are not used as scare tactics, by anybody. Abortion and
childbirth are risky (and how interesting that abortion is riskier as
the pregnancy progresses); we all agree to this. It just so happens,
which this bit of common sense mind-boggingly defies some people, that
abortion is less dangerous than pregnancy.

I am not
suggesting that is what you are doing so please don't pre-judge what I am
saying. I am saying though, that a lot do use this as a means to scare
women into believing abortion is a better option. Especially younger women
who don't know any better.

But lying to them about abortion is perfectly acceptable?

LOL! Exactly!

Disinformation (which the stats I have provided AREN'T) hurts these
girls.

Pregnancy, yes it is a risk.

IT IS A HUGE RISK!

However, with educating young women it's a
risk that many may only choose to take when they are ready.

What do you think abortion is about?

He means choose to not have sex.

I am, however, a huge supporter of contraception that is safe for women
AND men to consume and completely effective. However, I don't see
Pro-Lifers championing this.

In fact, they are working hard to deny women this. Example:

<http://www.horsesass.org/index.php?p=1109>

A little common sense does go a long way, you know.

I agree with you completely on that statement.

While it's dangerous, a woman's body is designed for childbirth.

What makes you believe so?

Well, let's see...pelvic design, a uterus, the body chemistry...do I need to
say more?

That isn't good enough.

That is all he knows. He isn't real deep.

In fact, it isn't. There'd not be a

childbirth mortality rate of the magintude it is presently, if what you
believe is true. In fact, had I not had the supreme medical care I
received for *both* of my deliveries, the second delivery would not
have occured because I'd have died nearly a decade before it had
happened. I was *very* lucky, to have supreme medical care and a
chance! And even with the medical care I received, there was no
gauarntee I'd have gotten out it unscathed--but I did.

That's why I stated your claims aren't good enough.

Why is that?

I don't know, since I've never heard anything so ridiculously claimed
like that, before. Care to expound on your thoughts about this?

I think any biologist could explain it.

If I wanted to hear a biologist's (or doctor's) claim, I'd have asked
him or her.

I asked for YOUR explanation.

We could all use the laugh.

The woman's body is designed for childbirth, simple as that.

That's not good enough. You can't just give these generalisations and
expect me and other readers to swallow it.

Give specifics.

He excels in "simple."

The body knows
exactly what to do when conception takes place. The body is capable of
supporting the fetus and the body is designed for birth..such as the pelvic
bone difference between men and women.

That's corny!

Nice job, Katherine. I hope you stick around for awhile!

In article <1132365443.932404.276280@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Katherine O'Flaherty <2.8.1855@safe-mail.net> wrote:

osprey wrote:

"Katherine O'Flaherty" <2.8.1855@safe-mail.net> wrote in message
news:1132361847.252523.219940@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

osprey wrote:

"Katherine O'Flaherty" <2.8.1855@safe-mail.net> wrote in message
How many women died in the US last year as a result of childbirth?
How many women gave childbirth in the US last year?

You've seen the same statistics as have I. And you know well as I do
that (legal and relatively safe) abortion is far less dangerous than
childbirth.

But you see one difference between you and I is this.

There is clearly a difference--and you'll not like it when you see it.

Sic'em.

I don't use that as an excuse to accept abortion.

I don't, either--because, unlike you, what the woman chooses (legally)
is HER business.

You got it.

If I am not the pregnant one, I have no right to extend my preferred
choice onto the one who is pregnant.

He feels HE knows better. (Maybe it is his narrow pelvis that makes
him smarter than you.)

Most women, I would hope, realize the risk and dangers associated with
childbirth.
And I would hope that they get the best prenatal care possible.
And I would hope they don't increase the risk with alchohol and drug use.

All sane people hope the best for pregnant women.

Osprey feels that stating the obvious gets him points.

It's like driving a car, we know the risk so we take the precautions
necessary.
Wearing a seatbelt, driving the speed limit, obeying the laws, and not
driving while intoxicated.

Have you ever experienced had an "oops"--or a failure of birth
control--or a situation where you were raped or forced into sex for
something, and the end result was an unexpected, even unwanted,
pregnancy?

He has one child, a boy, less than a year old that was an "oops."

There is another on the way. He says they were "unexpected." (He
makes it sound like he was banging pots and pans in the back yard to
keep the stork away but somehow two got by him.)

A lot of pro-choice use this argument as a "scare tactic".

The statistics are not used as scare tactics, by anybody. Abortion and
childbirth are risky (and how interesting that abortion is riskier as
the pregnancy progresses); we all agree to this. It just so happens,
which this bit of common sense mind-boggingly defies some people, that
abortion is less dangerous than pregnancy.

I am not
suggesting that is what you are doing so please don't pre-judge what I am
saying. I am saying though, that a lot do use this as a means to scare
women into believing abortion is a better option. Especially younger women
who don't know any better.

But lying to them about abortion is perfectly acceptable?

LOL! Exactly!

Disinformation (which the stats I have provided AREN'T) hurts these
girls.

Pregnancy, yes it is a risk.

IT IS A HUGE RISK!

However, with educating young women it's a
risk that many may only choose to take when they are ready.

What do you think abortion is about?

He means choose to not have sex.

I am, however, a huge supporter of contraception that is safe for women
AND men to consume and completely effective. However, I don't see
Pro-Lifers championing this.

In fact, they are working hard to deny women this. Example:
<http://www.horsesass.org/index.php?p=1109>

A little common sense does go a long way, you know.

I agree with you completely on that statement.

While it's dangerous, a woman's body is designed for childbirth.

What makes you believe so?

Well, let's see...pelvic design, a uterus, the body chemistry...do I need to
say more?

That isn't good enough.

That is all he knows. He isn't real deep.

In fact, it isn't. There'd not be a

childbirth mortality rate of the magintude it is presently, if what you
believe is true. In fact, had I not had the supreme medical care I
received for *both* of my deliveries, the second delivery would not
have occured because I'd have died nearly a decade before it had
happened. I was *very* lucky, to have supreme medical care and a
chance! And even with the medical care I received, there was no
gauarntee I'd have gotten out it unscathed--but I did.

That's why I stated your claims aren't good enough.

Why is that?

I don't know, since I've never heard anything so ridiculously claimed
like that, before. Care to expound on your thoughts about this?

I think any biologist could explain it.

If I wanted to hear a biologist's (or doctor's) claim, I'd have asked
him or her.
I asked for YOUR explanation.

We could all use the laugh.

The woman's body is designed for childbirth, simple as that.

That's not good enough. You can't just give these generalisations and
expect me and other readers to swallow it.

Give specifics.

He excels in "simple."

The body knows
exactly what to do when conception takes place. The body is capable of
supporting the fetus and the body is designed for birth..such as the pelvic
bone difference between men and women.

That's corny!

Nice job, Katherine. I hope you stick around for awhile!

Katherine O'Flaherty wrote:

osprey wrote:

"Katherine O'Flaherty" <2.8.1855@safe-mail.net> wrote in message
news:1132361847.252523.219940@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

osprey wrote:

"Katherine O'Flaherty" <2.8.1855@safe-mail.net> wrote in message
news:1132353460.407982.65950@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Denis Loubet wrote:

I object to the characterization of a one in a million event as a
"regular
basis". What would it take for an event to be NOT on a regular
basis?

Indeed. Childbirth, however, does far more damage--more permanent
damage while the pregnant woman manages to escape death--than
abortion
could ever do.

How many women died in the US last year as a result of childbirth?
How many women gave childbirth in the US last year?

You've seen the same statistics as have I. And you know well as I do
that (legal and relatively safe) abortion is far less dangerous than
childbirth.

But you see one difference between you and I is this.

There is clearly a difference--and you'll not like it when you see it.

I am a lot more open minded than you realize, so give it a chance.

I don't use that as an excuse to accept abortion.

I don't, either--because, unlike you, what the woman chooses (legally)
is HER business.

And there you are wrong because I agree it's a woman's choice and I
also support her having the choice to make legal choices.

With that
said, let me add that just because I support a persons right to make a
legal choice that doesn't mean I have to support the choice.

Like I said, give it a chance to understand my position before you get
too judgemental.

If I am not the pregnant one, I have no right to extend my preferred
choice onto the one who is pregnant.

Most women, I would hope, realize the risk and dangers associated with
childbirth.
And I would hope that they get the best prenatal care possible.
And I would hope they don't increase the risk with alchohol and drug use.

All sane people hope the best for pregnant women.

It's like driving a car, we know the risk so we take the precautions
necessary.
Wearing a seatbelt, driving the speed limit, obeying the laws, and not
driving while intoxicated.

Have you ever experienced had an "oops"--or a failure of birth
control--or a situation where you were raped or forced into sex for
something, and the end result was an unexpected, even unwanted,
pregnancy?

My wife and I have two sons together. Our youngest son was born 11
months ago. When she and I found out she was pregnant it was during a
time when she was on birth control.

Yes, these things happen. But with
that said, we love our son and don't consider him an "oops".

While we
both wanted to wait about another year before we had another one,
that's just how things go and we don't regret it one bit.

After he was born, I took the responsibility to get the procedure done
so we don't have any more children.

A lot of pro-choice use this argument as a "scare tactic".

The statistics are not used as scare tactics, by anybody.

I disagree because I have seen many in here use it as a "scare" tactic.

Abortion and

childbirth are risky

Yes, we agree

and how interesting that abortion is riskier as

the pregnancy progresses); we all agree to this. It just so happens,
which this bit of common sense mind-boggingly defies some people, that
abortion is less dangerous than pregnancy.

I am not
suggesting that is what you are doing so please don't pre-judge what I am
saying. I am saying though, that a lot do use this as a means to scare
women into believing abortion is a better option. Especially younger
women
who don't know any better.

But lying to them about abortion is perfectly acceptable?

I don't support lying to them at all. I support educating women on both
sides of the issue.
I think women should have access to information on both sides of this,
and I also support counseling for women who may not be sure so they
don't regret their decision down the road.

Disinformation (which the stats I have provided AREN'T) hurts these
girls.

Pregnancy, yes it is a risk.

IT IS A HUGE RISK!

However, with educating young women it's a
risk that many may only choose to take when they are ready.

What do you think abortion is about?

From what I see, with the pro-choice side, many don't want women to
have access to all the information because many are afraid that they
will not go for abortion and more people will turn against abortion.

Which, from reports I have read, more people are becoming less
supportive of abortion.

What I mean by that is, more people want
restrictions to stay in place, not ban it. While I do not support the
decision of abortion, I think it should remain legal and a woman can
have the option to abort before the fetus becomes viable. After the
fetus becomes viable, she should no longer be able to freely choose to
abort unless it's for a medical emergency.

And from state laws that I
have read, it seems to be like that already.

I think with the advancement of medical science, more people realize
now that the fetus isn't just a blob. The fetus is a living human being
and after viability, deserves the chance to survive.

I am, however, a huge supporter of contraception that is safe for women
AND men to consume and completely effective. However, I don't see
Pro-Lifers championing this.

Open your eyes, you are looking at one right now.

A little common sense does go a long way, you know.

I agree with you completely on that statement.

While it's dangerous, a woman's body is designed for childbirth.

What makes you believe so?

Well, let's see...pelvic design, a uterus, the body chemistry...do I need
to
say more?

That isn't good enough.

What do you expect?
What I said is the truth...a woman's body is designed for childbirth.

In fact, it isn't. There'd not be a

childbirth mortality rate of the magintude it is presently, if what you
believe is true. In fact, had I not had the supreme medical care I
received for *both* of my deliveries, the second delivery would not
have occured because I'd have died nearly a decade before it had
happened. I was *very* lucky, to have supreme medical care and a
chance! And even with the medical care I received, there was no
gauarntee I'd have gotten out it unscathed--but I did.

That's why I stated your claims aren't good enough.

I don't know why, I think it's very simple and basic.

Why is that?

I don't know, since I've never heard anything so ridiculously claimed
like that, before. Care to expound on your thoughts about this?

I think any biologist could explain it.

If I wanted to hear a biologist's (or doctor's) claim, I'd have asked
him or her.

Maybe you should if you don't understand what I mean when I said a
woman's body is designed for childbirth.

I asked for YOUR explanation.

And I gave it to you.
Her body is designed for childbirth.
Pelvic design, chemistry, uterus sustains life...the body knows EXACTLY
what to do from conception until birth. That pretty much sums it
up..the body is designed.
Sometimes she needs medical help...that happens from time to time.

The woman's body is designed for childbirth, simple as that.

That's not good enough. You can't just give these generalisations and
expect me and other readers to swallow it.

I don't care if you "swallow" it or not..it's how I view the issue.

If
you disagree...so be it. Life goes on.

Give specifics.

I have, I don't know how more simple I can explain it.

Her body goes through a monthly cycle, in which her body is at the most
fertile period. This means that naturally, her body is ready for
conception. Once conception takes place, the body knows exactly what
to do. Her chemistry changes, her body changes..it all comes
"naturally".

I could get a biology book and break it down, but I would hope that you
are intelligent enough to understand how the body works. I think you
are intelligent enough to understand this.

The body knows
exactly what to do when conception takes place. The body is capable of
supporting the fetus and the body is designed for birth..such as the pelvic
bone difference between men and women.

That's corny!

It's a fact..sorry if you don't like it.

Her
"One last note: I am very surprised at your reaction especially after
just a few short months ago I provided a copy of my DD214 Right in
box 18...1st line it says... SERVED 2 AUG 90 TO 1 OCT 94 IN SUPPORT
OF OPERATION DESERT SHIELD/STORM and in box 13 NATIONAL DEFENSE SERVICE
MEDAL Funny how you have selective memory, why? Yes, I served in combat
during Desert Storm."

http://groups.google.com/group/talk.abortion/msg/38f5de5691243868?dmode=source&hl=en


"Fine, if you want to play on words...no I was not in actual "combat" "

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/db12fe6b6ec66a35?dmode=source&hl=en

Katherine O'Flaherty wrote:

There is clearly a difference--and you'll not like it when you see it.

I am a lot more open minded than you realize, so give it a chance.
From what I've read, if somebody doesn't think as you do, you go off

I don't, either--because, unlike you, what the woman chooses (legally)
is HER business.

And there you are wrong because I agree it's a woman's choice and I
also support her having the choice to make legal choices.

With that
said, let me add that just because I support a persons right to make a
legal choice that doesn't mean I have to support the choice.

Like I said, give it a chance to understand my position before you get
too judgemental.

If I am not the pregnant one, I have no right to extend my preferred
choice onto the one who is pregnant.

Most women, I would hope, realize the risk and dangers associated with
childbirth.
And I would hope that they get the best prenatal care possible.
And I would hope they don't increase the risk with alchohol and drug use.

All sane people hope the best for pregnant women.

It's like driving a car, we know the risk so we take the precautions
necessary.
Wearing a seatbelt, driving the speed limit, obeying the laws, and not
driving while intoxicated.

Have you ever experienced had an "oops"--or a failure of birth
control--or a situation where you were raped or forced into sex for
something, and the end result was an unexpected, even unwanted,
pregnancy?

My wife and I have two sons together. Our youngest son was born 11
months ago. When she and I found out she was pregnant it was during a
time when she was on birth control. Yes, these things happen. But with
that said, we love our son and don't consider him an "oops".

While we
both wanted to wait about another year before we had another one,
that's just how things go and we don't regret it one bit.

After he was born, I took the responsibility to get the procedure done
so we don't have any more children.

A lot of pro-choice use this argument as a "scare tactic".

The statistics are not used as scare tactics, by anybody.

I disagree because I have seen many in here use it as a "scare" tactic.

Abortion and

childbirth are risky

Yes, we agree
and how interesting that abortion is riskier as

the pregnancy progresses); we all agree to this. It just so happens,
which this bit of common sense mind-boggingly defies some people, that
abortion is less dangerous than pregnancy.

I am not
suggesting that is what you are doing so please don't pre-judge what I am
saying. I am saying though, that a lot do use this as a means to scare
women into believing abortion is a better option. Especially younger women
who don't know any better.

But lying to them about abortion is perfectly acceptable?

I don't support lying to them at all. I support educating women on both
sides of the issue.

I think women should have access to information on both sides of this,
and I also support counseling for women who may not be sure so they
don't regret their decision down the road.

Disinformation (which the stats I have provided AREN'T) hurts these
girls.

Pregnancy, yes it is a risk.

IT IS A HUGE RISK!

However, with educating young women it's a
risk that many may only choose to take when they are ready.

What do you think abortion is about?
From what I see, with the pro-choice side, many don't want women to