| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"david ford" |
| Date: |
25 Mar 2005 09:19:13 PM |
| Object: |
Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
The affidavit extracts below demonstrate the falsity of the old media's
erroneous allegation that 'no one is home' in Terri Schindler Schiavo.
Also, Terri can anticipate and feel pain.
A U.S. judiciary run amok and a shameless American Criminal Liberties
Union are intent on murdering via starvation an innocent/ guiltless and
defenseless woman.
Decency demands that this unjustified, court-imposed death sentence on
Terri Schindler Schiavo be stopped.
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and
ACLU run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
From
http://www.hospicepatients.org/terri-schindler-schiavo-docs-links-page.html
from the PDF "Affidavit of William Cheshire, Jr., MD 03-23-05":
AFFIDAVIT
STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF DUVALL
Before me this day personally appeared William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D.,
who, being duly sworn, deposes and says:
I, William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D., have personal knowledge of the
facts stated in this declaration and, if called as a witness, I could
and would testify competently thereto under oath. I declare as follows:
I am a neurologist practicing in the State of Florida and am certified
by the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology. In regard to my
educational background, I received an A.B. in biochemical sciences from
Princeton University, an M.A. in bioethics from Trinity International
University, and an M.D. from West Virginia University. I completed an
internship in internal medicine at West Virginia University, a residency
in neurology and a pain fellowship at the University of North Carolina.
I am also an appointed volunteer with the Florida Statewide Adult
Protective Services team, in which capacity I was called on March 1,
2005, to provide an independent and objective medical review of
allegations of possible abuse, neglect, or exploitation of Ms. Theresa
Marie Schiavo.
Although no one from the Department of Children and Families has
inquired about my personal views about treatment decisions in cases of
persistent vegetative state (PVS), I would like to disclose that I came
into this case with the belief that it can be ethically permissible to
discontinue artificially provided nutrition and hydration for patients
in a persistent vegetative state. Having now reviewed the relevant
facts, having met and observed Ms. Schiavo in person, and having
reflected deeply on the moral and ethical issues, I would like to
explain why I change my mind in regard to this particular case.
.....
Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS. These include:
1. Her behavior is frequently context-specific. For example, her
facial expression brightens and she smiles in response to the voice of
familiar persons such as her parents or her nurse. Her agitation
subsides and her facial demeanor softens when quiet music is played.
When jubilant piano music is played, her face brightens, she lifts her
eyebrows, smiles, and even laughs. Her lateral gaze toward the tape
player is sustained for many minutes. Several times I witnessed Terri
briefly, albeit inconsistently, laugh in response to a humorous comment
someone in the room had made. I did not see her laugh in the absence of
someone else's laughter.
2. Although she does not seem to track or follow visual objects
consistently or for long periods of time, she does fixate her gaze on
colorful objects or human faces for some 15 seconds at a time and
occasionally follows with her eyes at least briefly as these objects
move from side to side. When I first walked into her room, she
immediately turned her head toward me and looked directly at my face.
There was a lot of curiosity or expectation in her expression, and she
maintained eye contact for about half a minute. Later, when she again
looked at me, she brought her lips together as if to pronounce the
letter "O," and although for a moment it appeared that she might be
making an intentional effort to speak, her face then fell blank, and no
words came out.
3. Although I did not hear Terri utter distinct words, she demonstrates
emotional expressivity by her use of a single syllable of vocalizations
such as "ah," making cooing sounds, or by expressing guttural sounds of
annoyance or moaning appropriate to the context of the situation. The
context-specific range and the variability of her vocalizations suggests
at least a reasonable probability of the processing of emotional thought
within her brain. There have been reports of Terri rarely using actual
words specific to her situational context. The July 25, 2003 affidavit
of the speech pathologist Sarah Green Mole, MS, on page 6, reads, "The
records of Mediplex reflect the fact that she has said 'stop' in
apparent response to a medical procedure being done to her." The Adult
Protective Services team has been unable to retrieve those original
medical records in this instance.
4. Although Terri has not consistently followed commands, there
appeared to be some notable exceptions. In the taped examination by Dr.
Hammesfahr from 2002, when asked to close her eyes she began to blink
repeatedly. Although it was unclear whether she squeezed her grip when
asked, she did appear to raise her right leg four times in succession
each time she was asked to do so. Rehabilitation notes from 1991
indicated that she tracked inconsistently, and although she did not
develop a yes/no communication system, did follow some commands
inconsistently and demonstrated good eye contact to family members.
5. There is a remarkable moment in the videotape of the September 3,
2002 examination by Dr. Hammesfahr that seemed to go unnoticed at the
time. At 2:44 p.m., Dr. Hammesfahr had just turned Terri onto her right
side to examine her back with a painful sharp stimulus (a sharp piece of
wood), to which Terri had responded with signs of discomfort. Well
after he ceased applying the stimulus and had returned Terri to a
comfortable position, he says to her parents, "So, we're going to have
to roll her over...." Immediately Terri cries. She vocalizes a crying
sound, "Ugh, ha, ha, ha," presses her eyebrows together, and sadly
grimaces. It is important to note that, at that moment, no one is
touching Terri or causing actual pain. Rather, she appears to
comprehend the meaning of Dr. Hammesfahr's comment and she signals her
_anticipation_ of pain. This response suggests some degree of language
processing and interpretation at the level of the cerebral cortex. It
also suggests that she may be aware of pain beyond what could be
explained by simple reflex withdrawal.
6. According to the definition of PVS published by the American Academy
of Neurology, "persistent vegetative state patients do not have the
capacity to experience pain or suffering. Pain and suffering are
attributes of consciousness requiring cerebral cortical functioning, and
patients who are permanently and completely unconscious cannot
experience these symptoms."^6 And yet, in my review of Terri's medical
records, pain issues keep surfacing. The nurses at Woodside Hospice
told us that she often has pain with menstrual cramps. Menstrual flow
is associated with agitation, repeated or sustained moaning, facial
grimacing, limb posturing, and facial flushing, all of which subside
once she is given ibuprofen. Some of the records document moaning,
crying, and other painful behavior in the setting of urinary tract
infections.
.....
7. To enter the room of Terri Schiavo is nothing like entering the room
of a patient who is comatose or brain-dead or in some neurological sense
no longer there. Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90
minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness,
or volitional behavior, yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the
presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of
some things around her.
As I looked at Terri, and she gazed directly back at me, I asked myself
whether, if I were her attending physician, I could in good conscience
withdraw nutrition and hydration. No, I could not. I could not
withdraw life support if I were asked. I could not withhold
life-sustaining nutrition and hydration from this beautiful lady whose
face brightens in the presence of others.
The neurologic signs are in many ways ambiguous. There is no guarantee
that more sophisticated testing would definitively resolve that
ambiguity to everyone's satisfaction. There would be value, I think, in
obtaining a functional MRI scan if that is possible.
This situation differs fundamentally from end-of-life scenarios where it
is appropriate to withdraw life-sustaining medical interventions that no
longer benefit or are burdensome to patients in the terminal stages of
illness. Terri's feeding tube is not a burden to her. It is not
painful, is not infected, is not eroding her stomach lining or causing
any medical complications. But for the decision to withdraw her feeding
tube, Terri cannot be considered medically terminal. But for the
withdrawal of food and water, she would not die [well, she would not die
now-- everybody dies eventually, sometimes sooner rather than later. We
never know when we will go to meet our Maker. -df].
In summary, Terri [Schindler] Schiavo demonstrates behaviors in a
variety of cognitive domains that call into question the previous
neurologic diagnosis of persistent vegetative state. Specifically, she
has demonstrated behaviors that are context-specific, sustained, and
indicative of a cerebral cortical processing that, upon careful
neurologic consideration, would not be expected in a persistent
vegetative state.
Based on this evidence, I believe that, within a reasonable degree of
medical certainty, there is a greater likelihood that Terri is in a
minimally conscious state than a persistent vegetative state. This
distinction makes an enormous difference in making ethical decisions on
Terri's behalf. If Terri is sufficiently aware of her surroundings that
she can feel pleasure and suffer, if she is capable of understanding to
some degree how she is being treated, then in my judgment it would be
wrong to bring about her death by withdrawing food and water.
At the time of this writing, Terri Schiavo, as the result of the
decisions based on what I have argued to be a faulty diagnosis of
persistent vegetative state, has been without food or water for 5 days.
She is thus at risk of death or serious injury unless the provision of
food and water can be restored. Terri Schiavo lacks the capacity to
consent to emergency protective services and must trust others to act on
her behalf. If she were to be transferred to another facility, it would
be medically necessary first to initiate hydration and ensure that her
serum electrolytes are within normal values.
How medicine and society choose to think about Terri [Schindler] Schiavo
will influence what kind of people we will be as we evaluate and respond
to the needs of the most vulnerable people among us. When serious
doubts exist as to whether a cognitively impaired person is or is not
consciously aware, even if these doubts cannot be conclusively resolved,
it is better to err on the side of protecting vulnerable life.
Respectfully submitted,
William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D., M.A., F.A.A.N.
[signature]
Sworn to (or affirmed) and subscribed before me this 23[rd] day of
March, 2005, by William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D.
[notary stamp and signature]
======================================================================
articles: livelier ones are by Thomas Sowell and William Kristol. Eric
Cohen's is very thoughtful.
http://www.townhall.com
Cal Thomas: Schiavo case matters in symbol and substance
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adfseF68nkocU1%40individual.net
Justifications for taking of human life?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aj33dF67kgcuU2%40individual.net
any atheists against Terri Schindler Schiavo's being starved to death?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adrlvF69l60hU1%40individual.net
1997 Wesley Smith on Germany's slippery slope slide from devaluing some
human life to a little euthanasia/ killing to mass killings
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3abe1cF6ac7t2U1%40individual.net
ACLU: Legal Terrorists
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/11/27/195402.shtml
Terri Schindler Schiavo Case
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/10/16/223430.shtml
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43463
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and
ACLU run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
.
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: 1943 Goebbels: a "process of selection between the strong and the weak" |
06 Jul 2005 11:48:00 AM |
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On 3 Jul 2005 21:16:31 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
highlights of Goebbels diary entry for 13 May 1943 (fuller text below):
One might well ask why are there any Jews in the world order?
That would be exactly like asking why are there potato bugs?
Nature is dominated by the law of struggle.
funny, when one checks the index of 'mein kampf', the following are
absent
-charles darwin
-natural selection
-'origin of species'
creationists like ford who try to tie evolution to nazis are, of
course, violating godwin's law. there's no getting around the fact
that some biologists supported hitler. however, phillip lenard, nobel
prize winning physicist, said that relativity was impossible because
the 'laws of physics must be racially understood'. does his statement
invalidate physics?
creationists, OTOH, have their own skeletons in the closet. most
recently in rwanda, where creationism played a role in the tutsi view
of the hutus, to jefferson davis and his explanation of why
creationism justified slavery.
---------------------------
to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com"
and enter 'wf3h' in the field
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| User: "josephus" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler and Haeckel parallel |
26 Jun 2005 02:09:30 AM |
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david ford wrote:
maff wrote:
david ford wrote:
[...]
Evading your Christian fascist acts.
3 examples of these "Christian fascist acts"?
Einstein: physics was designed
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-37f67dF59po8jU1%40individual.net
You have not directly answered anybody. You change the subject, change
the topic, refer to something unrelated. you evade answers by the book.
josephus
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler and Haeckel parallel |
25 Jun 2005 02:39:24 AM |
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david ford wrote:
[...]
For that you've to appear before courts, Christian fascist degenerate,
David Ford.
David Ford
http://snipurl.com/d6r4
--
Scientific creationism: a religious dogma combining massive ignorance
with incredible arrogance.
Creationist: (1) One who follows creationism. (2) A moron. (3) A person
incapable of doing math. (4) A liar. (5) A very gullible true believer.
.
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| User: "Bob" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler and Haeckel parallel |
06 Jul 2005 06:41:19 PM |
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On 16 Jun 2005 04:19:00 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann.
funny that hitler never mentioned darwin or natural selection in 'mein
kampf'.
christian creationists were adamant, however, in their insistence that
god separated the races, and some were inferior. jefferson davis wrote
that, as did john calhoun.
---------------------------
to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com"
and enter 'wf3h' in the field
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| User: "Danny Johnson" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler and Haeckel parallel |
06 Jul 2005 07:09:20 PM |
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"Bob" <wf3h@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:42cc6be5.3897728@newsgroups.comcast.net...
On 16 Jun 2005 04:19:00 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann.
funny that hitler never mentioned darwin or natural selection in 'mein
kampf'.
christian creationists were adamant, however, in their insistence that
god separated the races, and some were inferior. jefferson davis wrote
that, as did john calhoun.
IOW you are suggesting that Hitler had more morals than J. Davis
or J. Calhoun.
---------------------------
to see who "wf3h" is, go to "qrz.com"
and enter 'wf3h' in the field
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler and Haeckel parallel |
10 Jul 2005 11:09:42 PM |
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Bob wrote:
On 16 Jun 2005 04:19:00 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann.
funny that hitler never mentioned darwin or natural selection in 'mein
kampf'.
How do you know?
Also, that book was for public consumption as an aid to Hitler's quest
for power.
Speer thought the 'Table Talk' book was legit.
Do you think this Goebbels is legit?:
1943 Goebbels: a "process of selection between the strong and the
weak"
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.origins/msg/b74948086f4a6984?
Do you think this Heydrich is legit?:
1942 Heydrich: "The Jews... no doubt a large part of them will be
eliminated by natural diminution. The survivors, the hardiest among
them, must be given an appropriate treatment, because they represent a
natural selection...."
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407032023.243f5883%40posting.google.com
christian creationists were adamant, however, in their insistence that
god separated the races, and some were inferior. jefferson davis wrote
that, as did john calhoun.
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| User: "Tracy Hamilton" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler and Haeckel parallel |
11 Jul 2005 12:24:48 AM |
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david ford wrote:
Bob wrote:
On 16 Jun 2005 04:19:00 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann.
funny that hitler never mentioned darwin or natural selection in 'mein
kampf'.
How do you know?
Also, that book was for public consumption as an aid to Hitler's quest
for power.
Ah, the "Hitler was subtle" approach!
[snip]
Tracy P. Hamilton
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| User: "A.Carlson" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler and Haeckel parallel |
16 Jun 2005 01:41:36 PM |
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On 16 Jun 2005 04:19:00 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp. On 71, a paragraph from the entry
for 24 October 1941:
For a world population of two thousand two
hundred and fifty millions, one can count on the
earth a hundred and seventy religions of a certain
importance-- each of them claiming, of course, to
be the repository of the truth. At least a hundred
and sixty-nine of them, therefore, are mistaken!
Amongst the religions practised to-day, there is
none that goes back further than two thousand five
hundred years. But there have been human beings,
in the baboon category, for at least three hundred
thousand years. There is less distance between the
man-ape and the ordinary modern man than there
is between the ordinary modern man and a man
like Schopenhauer. In comparison with this millenary
past, what does a period of two thousand years
signify?
Of course you recognize the falsehood of this statement don't you?
Representing the rantings of an obvious megalomaniac as though it was
some sort of an accepted truth is hardly an honest tactic!
Weikart, Richard. 2004. _From Darwin to Hitler:
Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany_
(USA: Palgrave Macmillan), 312pp. About Weikart's
book:
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407030531.19253d93%40posting.google.com
On 90:
Haeckel regularly marshaled Darwinian arguments in
support of inegalitarianism. In _The Natural History of
Creation_ (1868) he explained that
_between the most highly developed animal soul and the
least developed human soul there exists only a small
quantitative, but no qualitative difference_, and that this
difference is much less, than the difference between the
lowest and the highest human souls, or as the difference
between the highest and lowest animal souls.^3
Good for Haeckel! So what? Other than this obvious personal opinion,
did he ever provide any evidence that there even was a soul?
I draw your attention to Hitler's remark that
there have been human beings,
in the baboon category, for at least three hundred
thousand years. There is less distance between the
man-ape and the ordinary modern man than there
is between the ordinary modern man and a man
like Schopenhauer.
Yes, the rantings of a racist whose method was to pick and choose what
to accept and not to accept based on his own prejudices. Remind you
of anyone?
Dawkins, Richard. 2003. _A Devil's Chaplain: Reflections
on Hope, Lies, Science, and Love_ (USA: Houghton Mifflin
Company), 263pp. A paragraph on 26:
I have argued that the discontinuous gap between
humans and 'apes' that we erect in our minds is
regrettable. I have also argued that, in any case, the
present position of the hallowed gap is arbitrary, the
result of evolutionary accident. If the contingencies of
survival and extinction had been different, the gap
would be in a different place. Ethical principles that are
based upon accidental caprice should not be respected as
if cast in stone.
If you had actually bothered to read this obviously out-of-context
quote for comprehension you would find that Dawkins was making a case
for something quite the opposite of what Hitler et al were making,
namely that we should have respect for those creatures that we share
such a close relationship with.
In short, what Hitler stated was exclusive in nature while Dawkins was
saying was clearly inclusive in nature.
Weikart on 76:
Haeckel and many other German Darwinists fought
incessantly against all dualistic views of humans, which
endued human life with much greater value than
animals. For Haeckel and most German Darwinists,
humans were not much different from animals, and they
often criticized Christians and other dualists for insisting
on significant qualitative distinctions between humans
and animals.^13
Darwinists downgrading the value of human life
Actually, it was more like they were upgrading the value of our fellow
anthropoids, arguing that they too deserve respect. As such, they
appeared to be going in the exact opposite direction that Nazi
propagandists were.
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-399aluF5uql89U1%40individual.net
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
13 Jun 2005 12:46:44 PM |
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On 13 Jun 2005 08:55:03 -0700,
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
<Snip>
Why does it matter, David?
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 06:01:24 AM |
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AC wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 08:55:03 -0700,
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
<Snip>
Why does it matter, David?
It doesn't matter, Aaron. Do you agree with this Dawkins?:
Dawkins, Richard. 1989. _The Selfish Gene_ (NY: Oxford University
Press), 352pp. On 2:
....I think 'nature red in tooth and claw' sums up our modern
understanding of natural selection admirably.
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 09:56:41 AM |
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On 14 Jun 2005 04:01:24 -0700,
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
AC wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 08:55:03 -0700,
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
<Snip>
Why does it matter, David?
It doesn't matter, Aaron. Do you agree with this Dawkins?:
Dawkins, Richard. 1989. _The Selfish Gene_ (NY: Oxford University
Press), 352pp. On 2:
....I think 'nature red in tooth and claw' sums up our modern
understanding of natural selection admirably.
I don't play your games any more. My only purpose in responding to your
messages is to point out how dishonest you are. Please continue your little
public psychological masturbation sessions.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 10:13:09 AM |
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AC wrote:
On 14 Jun 2005 david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
AC wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
<Snip>
Why does it matter, David?
It doesn't matter, Aaron. Do you agree with this Dawkins?:
Dawkins, Richard. 1989. _The Selfish Gene_ (NY: Oxford University
Press), 352pp. On 2:
....I think 'nature red in tooth and claw' sums up our modern
understanding of natural selection admirably.
I don't play your games any more.
Are you going to killfile me again?
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/d8d540984c038ca7?
My only purpose in responding to your
messages is to point out how dishonest you are. Please continue your little
public psychological masturbation sessions.
.
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 10:34:02 AM |
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On 14 Jun 2005 08:13:09 -0700,
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
AC wrote:
On 14 Jun 2005 david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
AC wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
<Snip>
Why does it matter, David?
It doesn't matter, Aaron. Do you agree with this Dawkins?:
Dawkins, Richard. 1989. _The Selfish Gene_ (NY: Oxford University
Press), 352pp. On 2:
....I think 'nature red in tooth and claw' sums up our modern
understanding of natural selection admirably.
I don't play your games any more.
Are you going to killfile me again?
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/d8d540984c038ca7?
Possibly. So what? It's not like you give a damn about what anybody
thinks. Wonder if you expect a reward from your god for playing dishonest
games.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
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| User: "Mark Isaak" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
13 Jun 2005 01:56:21 PM |
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On 13 Jun 2005 08:55:03 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) earthlink (dot) net
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
exposing the country to danger." -- Hermann Goering
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| User: "Boikat" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
13 Jun 2005 02:04:30 PM |
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"Mark Isaak" <eciton@earthlinkNOSPAM.next> wrote in message
news:9klra1l5bbrova1oova7t653nsq9blmdmd@4ax.com...
On 13 Jun 2005 08:55:03 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
From his posts, I'd have thought he already knew of them. He's acting like
their favorite propagandist.
Boikat
--
<42><
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 06:05:05 AM |
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Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
If there was a British equivalent, do you think Dawkins would "feel
right at home" as a member?
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp. On 43, from the entry for 10 October
1941, midday:
War has returned to its primitive form. The war of
people against people is giving place to another war-- a
war for the possession of the great spaces.
Originally war was nothing but a struggle for pasture-
grounds. Today war is nothing but a struggle for the
riches of nature. By virtue of an inherent law, these
riches belong to him who conquers them. The great
migrations set out from the East. With us begins the ebb,
from West to East.
That's in accordance with the laws of nature. By means
of the struggle, the elites are continually renewed.
The law of selection justifies this incessant struggle, by
allowing the survival of the fittest.
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest
against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity
would mean the systematic cultivation of the human
failure.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
For Further Reading
1941 Hitler:
The law of selection justifies this incessant struggle, by
allowing the survival of the fittest.
Dawkins, Richard. 1989. _The Selfish Gene_ (NY: Oxford University
Press), 352pp. On 2:
....I think 'nature red in tooth and claw' sums up our modern
understanding of natural selection admirably.
1942 Heydrich
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407032023.243f5883%40posting.google.com
The Jews... no doubt a large part of them will be eliminated by
natural diminution. The survivors, the hardiest among them,
must be given an appropriate treatment, because they represent
a natural selection....
1989 Dawkins:
....I think 'nature red in tooth and claw' sums up our modern
understanding of natural selection admirably.
1940 Nazi film "All Life is Struggle" embraced Darwinian natural
selection
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407042043.1c2ccf1f%40posting.google.com
1989 Dawkins:
....I think 'nature red in tooth and claw' sums up our modern
understanding of natural selection admirably.
excerpts from a 1942 Nazi biology textbook for the middle school
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/textbk01.htm
Brooks, Daniel R. 1983. "What's going on in evolution? A brief
guide to some new ideas in evolutionary theory" _Canadian Journal of
Zoology_ 61: 2637-45. On 2644:
Lastly, it is impossible for scientists to divorce themselves
from their personal world view in setting about doing their
science. In my case, I have always been unhappy about the
implicit violence, racism, and sexism of the metaphors
surrounding the Darwinian and neo-Darwinian traditions. Last
year, during the centennial of Darwin's death, one museum group
in the United States produced a T-shirt which said, "Be a good
Darwinian--Kill a weakling today." And this was not from a
group of anti-Darwinians. Both "Survival of the Fittest" and
"Nature Red in Tooth and Claw" are powerful metaphors.
Hitler:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest
against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity
would mean the systematic cultivation of the human
failure.
Hitler opposed Christianity
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/47c284defb4765dd?
Hitler encounters the T0E: A Victory for Atheism
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/e9b71ae73bcf99a3?
Stalin encounters the T0E: Another Victory for Atheism
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/af7ba99b77080b21?
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| User: "Mark Isaak" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 03:21:58 PM |
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On 14 Jun 2005 04:05:05 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
If there was a British equivalent, do you think Dawkins would "feel
right at home" as a member?
No. I think you would.
--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) earthlink (dot) net
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
exposing the country to danger." -- Hermann Goering
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 09:09:28 AM |
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Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark,
Do you think the atheists Watson and Crick would "feel
right at home" as members?
//////////////////////////////////////////////////
From
1979 Schaeffer & Koop on the a-moral implications of atheism
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504061225.4c675814%40posting.google.com
In May 1973, James D. Watson, the Nobel Prize
laureate who discovered the double helix of DNA,
granted an interview to _Prism_ magazine, then a
publication of the American Medical Association.
_Time_ later reported the interview to the general
public, quoting Watson as having said,
If a child were not declared alive until three days
after birth, then all parents could be allowed the
choice only a few are given under the present
system. The doctor could allow the child to die
if the parents so choose and save a lot of misery
and suffering. I believe this view is the only
rational, compassionate attitude to have.
In January 1978, Francis Crick, also a Nobel
laureate, was quoted in the _Pacific News Service_
as saying,
. . . no newborn infant should be declared human
until it has passed certain tests regarding its
genetic endowment and that if it fails these tests
it forfeits the right to live.
any atheists against Terri Schindler Schiavo's being starved to death?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adrlvF69l60hU1%40individual.net
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| User: "Boikat" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 09:59:48 AM |
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"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1118758168.405153.116300@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark,
Do you think the atheists Watson and Crick would "feel
right at home" as members?
<snip propaganda>
What do the personal opinions or political viesw of either one of them have
to do with the validity of the ToE, Herr Goebbels?
Boikat
--
<42><
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| User: "Mark Isaak" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 03:21:32 PM |
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On 14 Jun 2005 07:09:28 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark,
Do you think the atheists Watson and Crick would "feel
right at home" as members?
No. I think you would.
--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) earthlink (dot) net
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
exposing the country to danger." -- Hermann Goering
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 09:58:10 AM |
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Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
I'm curious, Mark. Would the Darwinist Peschel "feel right at home
there"?
Darwinist ethnologist Oscar Peschel in 1863:
The Negro is far removed from the European and close to
the ape through its small build, through the relatively
small breadth of its skull, through its relatively long upper
limbs, and further the relatively short length of the
thigh.... Also the Negro is more animal, in that it gives
off a disgusting odor, distorts its face in grimaces, and its
voice has a harsh, grating tone.
Cited in
Weikart, Richard. 2004. _From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics,
Eugenics, and Racism in Germany_ (USA: Palgrave Macmillan), 312pp.,
112. About Weikart's book:
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407030531.19253d93%40posting.google.com
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| User: "Boikat" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 10:11:46 AM |
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"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1118761090.611782.128970@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
I'm curious, Mark. Would the Darwinist Peschel "feel right at home
there"?
Darwinist ethnologist Oscar Peschel in 1863:
<snip more propaganda>
Who the hell cares how some dorks misused the ToE? Do you advocate
censorship, herr Goebbels?
Boikat
--
<42><
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 10:42:07 AM |
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Boikat wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1118761090.611782.128970@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
I'm curious, Mark. Would the Darwinist Peschel "feel right at home
there"?
Darwinist ethnologist Oscar Peschel in 1863:
<snip more propaganda>
Who the hell cares how some dorks misused the ToE?
Remind me, who "misused the ToE"?
Do you advocate
censorship, herr Goebbels?
I "advocate censorship" of IDiocy, through the courts if nobody else
will.
elected state and national legislatures are superfluous
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aenpiF69fl4rU1%40individual.net
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| User: "Boikat" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 10:50:34 AM |
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"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1118763727.187881.193810@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Boikat wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1118761090.611782.128970@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right
at
home there.
I'm curious, Mark. Would the Darwinist Peschel "feel right at home
there"?
Darwinist ethnologist Oscar Peschel in 1863:
<snip more propaganda>
Who the hell cares how some dorks misused the ToE?
Remind me, who "misused the ToE"?
You don't know? Then what is the point of all your "guilt by association"
posts, Herr Goebbels?
Do you advocate
censorship, herr Goebbels?
I "advocate censorship" of IDiocy, through the courts if nobody else
will.
How about censorship of the Theory of Evolution, herr Goebbels?
Boikat
--
<42><
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
15 Jun 2005 06:06:21 PM |
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On 14 Jun 2005 08:42:07 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Remind me, who "misused the ToE"?
Xtians, mostly.
They are still doing it today.
Social Darwinism, was a purely xtian invention, intended to keep the poor and
down-trodden masses, poor and downtrodden, to keep the rich, rich, and to keep
the church, richest.
--
Puck Greenman
The spelling, Like any opinion stated here,
is purely my own
#162 BAAWA Knight.
Plonked by Rob Duncan
Na bister 500,000
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
17 Jun 2005 01:30:16 PM |
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Dubh Ghall wrote:
On 14 Jun 2005 "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Remind me, who "misused the ToE"?
Xtians, mostly.
Who are the top 5 people that have "misused the ToE"?
Hitler and Haeckel parallel
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/a70c547d1f53588b?
Hitler and Rolle parallel
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/5fa25b3efc264596?
Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/6ab79a88a19145a0?
Hitler encounters the T0E: A Victory for Atheism
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/e9b71ae73bcf99a3?
1942 Heydrich: "The Jews... no doubt a large part of them will be
eliminated by natural diminution. The survivors, the hardiest among
them, must be given an appropriate treatment, because they represent a
natural selection...."
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407032023.243f5883%40posting.google.com
2004 Richard Weikart: "physicians... were committed to a racist
eugenics ideology that the Nazis favored"
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407120310.7d3f3929%40posting.google.com
Stalin encounters the T0E: A Victory for Atheism
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/af7ba99b77080b21?
Lenin's becoming an atheist; 1922 Lenin
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-35nbd1F4pm3jiU1%40individual.net
They are still doing it today.
Social Darwinism, was a purely xtian invention, intended to keep the poor and
down-trodden masses, poor and downtrodden, to keep the rich, rich, and to keep
the church, richest.
.
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
17 Jun 2005 03:07:02 PM |
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david ford wrote:
[...]
Scientifically illiterate Christian fascist idiot, David Ford, for a
start.
David Ford
http://snipurl.com/d6r4
--
Scientific creationism: a religious dogma combining massive ignorance
with incredible arrogance.
Creationist: (1) One who follows creationism. (2) A moron. (3) A person
incapable of doing math. (4) A liar. (5) A very gullible true believer.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
16 Jun 2005 07:51:02 AM |
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On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:06:21 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey>
wrote:
On 14 Jun 2005 08:42:07 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Remind me, who "misused the ToE"?
Xtians, mostly.
Yes. The predominantly Christian USA is very social Darwinist.
They are still doing it today.
Social Darwinism, was a purely xtian invention, intended to keep the poor and
down-trodden masses, poor and downtrodden, to keep the rich, rich, and to keep
the church, richest.
--
Puck Greenman
The spelling, Like any opinion stated here,
is purely my own
#162 BAAWA Knight.
Plonked by Rob Duncan
Na bister 500,000
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
16 Jun 2005 10:09:03 AM |
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote:
On 14 Jun 2005 08:42:07 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Remind me, who "misused the ToE"?
Xtians, mostly.
Yes. The predominantly Christian USA is very social Darwinist.
Do you think post-Darwin, pre-Holocaust Germany was "very social
Darwinist"?
Haeckel and Buchner and a Darwinian a-moral climate; Hitler was a
homosexual
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/9024224bd3d87 | | | | | | | |
