| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"david ford" |
| Date: |
25 Mar 2005 09:19:13 PM |
| Object: |
Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
The affidavit extracts below demonstrate the falsity of the old media's
erroneous allegation that 'no one is home' in Terri Schindler Schiavo.
Also, Terri can anticipate and feel pain.
A U.S. judiciary run amok and a shameless American Criminal Liberties
Union are intent on murdering via starvation an innocent/ guiltless and
defenseless woman.
Decency demands that this unjustified, court-imposed death sentence on
Terri Schindler Schiavo be stopped.
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and
ACLU run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
From
http://www.hospicepatients.org/terri-schindler-schiavo-docs-links-page.html
from the PDF "Affidavit of William Cheshire, Jr., MD 03-23-05":
AFFIDAVIT
STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF DUVALL
Before me this day personally appeared William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D.,
who, being duly sworn, deposes and says:
I, William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D., have personal knowledge of the
facts stated in this declaration and, if called as a witness, I could
and would testify competently thereto under oath. I declare as follows:
I am a neurologist practicing in the State of Florida and am certified
by the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology. In regard to my
educational background, I received an A.B. in biochemical sciences from
Princeton University, an M.A. in bioethics from Trinity International
University, and an M.D. from West Virginia University. I completed an
internship in internal medicine at West Virginia University, a residency
in neurology and a pain fellowship at the University of North Carolina.
I am also an appointed volunteer with the Florida Statewide Adult
Protective Services team, in which capacity I was called on March 1,
2005, to provide an independent and objective medical review of
allegations of possible abuse, neglect, or exploitation of Ms. Theresa
Marie Schiavo.
Although no one from the Department of Children and Families has
inquired about my personal views about treatment decisions in cases of
persistent vegetative state (PVS), I would like to disclose that I came
into this case with the belief that it can be ethically permissible to
discontinue artificially provided nutrition and hydration for patients
in a persistent vegetative state. Having now reviewed the relevant
facts, having met and observed Ms. Schiavo in person, and having
reflected deeply on the moral and ethical issues, I would like to
explain why I change my mind in regard to this particular case.
.....
Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS. These include:
1. Her behavior is frequently context-specific. For example, her
facial expression brightens and she smiles in response to the voice of
familiar persons such as her parents or her nurse. Her agitation
subsides and her facial demeanor softens when quiet music is played.
When jubilant piano music is played, her face brightens, she lifts her
eyebrows, smiles, and even laughs. Her lateral gaze toward the tape
player is sustained for many minutes. Several times I witnessed Terri
briefly, albeit inconsistently, laugh in response to a humorous comment
someone in the room had made. I did not see her laugh in the absence of
someone else's laughter.
2. Although she does not seem to track or follow visual objects
consistently or for long periods of time, she does fixate her gaze on
colorful objects or human faces for some 15 seconds at a time and
occasionally follows with her eyes at least briefly as these objects
move from side to side. When I first walked into her room, she
immediately turned her head toward me and looked directly at my face.
There was a lot of curiosity or expectation in her expression, and she
maintained eye contact for about half a minute. Later, when she again
looked at me, she brought her lips together as if to pronounce the
letter "O," and although for a moment it appeared that she might be
making an intentional effort to speak, her face then fell blank, and no
words came out.
3. Although I did not hear Terri utter distinct words, she demonstrates
emotional expressivity by her use of a single syllable of vocalizations
such as "ah," making cooing sounds, or by expressing guttural sounds of
annoyance or moaning appropriate to the context of the situation. The
context-specific range and the variability of her vocalizations suggests
at least a reasonable probability of the processing of emotional thought
within her brain. There have been reports of Terri rarely using actual
words specific to her situational context. The July 25, 2003 affidavit
of the speech pathologist Sarah Green Mole, MS, on page 6, reads, "The
records of Mediplex reflect the fact that she has said 'stop' in
apparent response to a medical procedure being done to her." The Adult
Protective Services team has been unable to retrieve those original
medical records in this instance.
4. Although Terri has not consistently followed commands, there
appeared to be some notable exceptions. In the taped examination by Dr.
Hammesfahr from 2002, when asked to close her eyes she began to blink
repeatedly. Although it was unclear whether she squeezed her grip when
asked, she did appear to raise her right leg four times in succession
each time she was asked to do so. Rehabilitation notes from 1991
indicated that she tracked inconsistently, and although she did not
develop a yes/no communication system, did follow some commands
inconsistently and demonstrated good eye contact to family members.
5. There is a remarkable moment in the videotape of the September 3,
2002 examination by Dr. Hammesfahr that seemed to go unnoticed at the
time. At 2:44 p.m., Dr. Hammesfahr had just turned Terri onto her right
side to examine her back with a painful sharp stimulus (a sharp piece of
wood), to which Terri had responded with signs of discomfort. Well
after he ceased applying the stimulus and had returned Terri to a
comfortable position, he says to her parents, "So, we're going to have
to roll her over...." Immediately Terri cries. She vocalizes a crying
sound, "Ugh, ha, ha, ha," presses her eyebrows together, and sadly
grimaces. It is important to note that, at that moment, no one is
touching Terri or causing actual pain. Rather, she appears to
comprehend the meaning of Dr. Hammesfahr's comment and she signals her
_anticipation_ of pain. This response suggests some degree of language
processing and interpretation at the level of the cerebral cortex. It
also suggests that she may be aware of pain beyond what could be
explained by simple reflex withdrawal.
6. According to the definition of PVS published by the American Academy
of Neurology, "persistent vegetative state patients do not have the
capacity to experience pain or suffering. Pain and suffering are
attributes of consciousness requiring cerebral cortical functioning, and
patients who are permanently and completely unconscious cannot
experience these symptoms."^6 And yet, in my review of Terri's medical
records, pain issues keep surfacing. The nurses at Woodside Hospice
told us that she often has pain with menstrual cramps. Menstrual flow
is associated with agitation, repeated or sustained moaning, facial
grimacing, limb posturing, and facial flushing, all of which subside
once she is given ibuprofen. Some of the records document moaning,
crying, and other painful behavior in the setting of urinary tract
infections.
.....
7. To enter the room of Terri Schiavo is nothing like entering the room
of a patient who is comatose or brain-dead or in some neurological sense
no longer there. Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90
minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness,
or volitional behavior, yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the
presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of
some things around her.
As I looked at Terri, and she gazed directly back at me, I asked myself
whether, if I were her attending physician, I could in good conscience
withdraw nutrition and hydration. No, I could not. I could not
withdraw life support if I were asked. I could not withhold
life-sustaining nutrition and hydration from this beautiful lady whose
face brightens in the presence of others.
The neurologic signs are in many ways ambiguous. There is no guarantee
that more sophisticated testing would definitively resolve that
ambiguity to everyone's satisfaction. There would be value, I think, in
obtaining a functional MRI scan if that is possible.
This situation differs fundamentally from end-of-life scenarios where it
is appropriate to withdraw life-sustaining medical interventions that no
longer benefit or are burdensome to patients in the terminal stages of
illness. Terri's feeding tube is not a burden to her. It is not
painful, is not infected, is not eroding her stomach lining or causing
any medical complications. But for the decision to withdraw her feeding
tube, Terri cannot be considered medically terminal. But for the
withdrawal of food and water, she would not die [well, she would not die
now-- everybody dies eventually, sometimes sooner rather than later. We
never know when we will go to meet our Maker. -df].
In summary, Terri [Schindler] Schiavo demonstrates behaviors in a
variety of cognitive domains that call into question the previous
neurologic diagnosis of persistent vegetative state. Specifically, she
has demonstrated behaviors that are context-specific, sustained, and
indicative of a cerebral cortical processing that, upon careful
neurologic consideration, would not be expected in a persistent
vegetative state.
Based on this evidence, I believe that, within a reasonable degree of
medical certainty, there is a greater likelihood that Terri is in a
minimally conscious state than a persistent vegetative state. This
distinction makes an enormous difference in making ethical decisions on
Terri's behalf. If Terri is sufficiently aware of her surroundings that
she can feel pleasure and suffer, if she is capable of understanding to
some degree how she is being treated, then in my judgment it would be
wrong to bring about her death by withdrawing food and water.
At the time of this writing, Terri Schiavo, as the result of the
decisions based on what I have argued to be a faulty diagnosis of
persistent vegetative state, has been without food or water for 5 days.
She is thus at risk of death or serious injury unless the provision of
food and water can be restored. Terri Schiavo lacks the capacity to
consent to emergency protective services and must trust others to act on
her behalf. If she were to be transferred to another facility, it would
be medically necessary first to initiate hydration and ensure that her
serum electrolytes are within normal values.
How medicine and society choose to think about Terri [Schindler] Schiavo
will influence what kind of people we will be as we evaluate and respond
to the needs of the most vulnerable people among us. When serious
doubts exist as to whether a cognitively impaired person is or is not
consciously aware, even if these doubts cannot be conclusively resolved,
it is better to err on the side of protecting vulnerable life.
Respectfully submitted,
William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D., M.A., F.A.A.N.
[signature]
Sworn to (or affirmed) and subscribed before me this 23[rd] day of
March, 2005, by William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D.
[notary stamp and signature]
======================================================================
articles: livelier ones are by Thomas Sowell and William Kristol. Eric
Cohen's is very thoughtful.
http://www.townhall.com
Cal Thomas: Schiavo case matters in symbol and substance
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adfseF68nkocU1%40individual.net
Justifications for taking of human life?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aj33dF67kgcuU2%40individual.net
any atheists against Terri Schindler Schiavo's being starved to death?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adrlvF69l60hU1%40individual.net
1997 Wesley Smith on Germany's slippery slope slide from devaluing some
human life to a little euthanasia/ killing to mass killings
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3abe1cF6ac7t2U1%40individual.net
ACLU: Legal Terrorists
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/11/27/195402.shtml
Terri Schindler Schiavo Case
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/10/16/223430.shtml
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43463
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and
ACLU run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 10:25:03 AM |
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Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark, would Darwinist Rolle "feel right at home there"?
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp. On 33, from the entry for 23
September 1941:
If to-day you do harm to the Russians, it is so as to avoid
giving them the opportunity of doing harm to us.
1866 comment by Darwinian German geologist Friedrich Rolle:
In the contest between peoples the proverb was and
always will be valid: 'Better that I smash you, than you
smash me.'
Cited in Weikart, 167.
About Weikart's book:
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407030531.19253d93%40posting.google.com
Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/6ab79a88a19145a0?
Hitler encounters the T0E: A Victory for Atheism
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/e9b71ae73bcf99a3?
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| User: "Boikat" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 10:45:02 AM |
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"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1118762703.384545.317610@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark, would Darwinist Rolle "feel right at home there"?
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953.
Just more pathetic "guilt by association" *****. Really, heer Goebbels,
do you think making yourself look like an ignorant "cut-n-paste" moron will
have even the slightest dent in the validity of the ToE?
Boikat
--
<42><
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| User: "Mark Isaak" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 03:27:14 PM |
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On 14 Jun 2005 08:25:03 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark, would Darwinist Rolle "feel right at home there"?
Undoubtedly not. But you have convinced me that you would.
--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) earthlink (dot) net
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
exposing the country to danger." -- Hermann Goering
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| User: "Rev. Maeljin" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
15 Jun 2005 09:11:30 AM |
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david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark, would Darwinist Rolle "feel right at home there"?
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp. On 33, from the entry for 23
September 1941:
Er, how to say it? Hitler's Table Talk is a forgery and Trevor Roper
destroyed his career supporting it.
--
"Rev. Maeljin is a merry fellow;
Dull black his Glock is, and its brass-jacketed rounds are yellow."
Universal Life Church Minister, ordained December Seventh 2001
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
15 Jun 2005 02:10:41 PM |
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On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:11:30 GMT,
Rev. Maeljin <maeljin@libero.it> wrote:
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark, would Darwinist Rolle "feel right at home there"?
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp. On 33, from the entry for 23
September 1941:
Er, how to say it? Hitler's Table Talk is a forgery and Trevor Roper
destroyed his career supporting it.
David isn't interested in truth.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
16 Jun 2005 10:05:01 AM |
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AC wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:11:30 GMT,
Rev. Maeljin <maeljin@libero.it> wrote:
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark, would Darwinist Rolle "feel right at home there"?
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp. On 33, from the entry for 23
September 1941:
Er, how to say it? Hitler's Table Talk is a forgery and Trevor Roper
destroyed his career supporting it.
David isn't interested in truth.
Do you think Dawkins is "interested in truth"?
I'm looking at some comical remarks in
Dawkins, Richard. 2003. _A Devil's Chaplain: Reflections on Hope,
Lies, Science, and Love_ (USA: Houghton Mifflin Company), 263pp., 37.
.
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
16 Jun 2005 12:17:07 PM |
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On 16 Jun 2005 08:05:01 -0700,
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
AC wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 14:11:30 GMT,
Rev. Maeljin <maeljin@libero.it> wrote:
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark, would Darwinist Rolle "feel right at home there"?
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp. On 33, from the entry for 23
September 1941:
Er, how to say it? Hitler's Table Talk is a forgery and Trevor Roper
destroyed his career supporting it.
David isn't interested in truth.
Do you think Dawkins is "interested in truth"?
I'm looking at some comical remarks in
Dawkins, Richard. 2003. _A Devil's Chaplain: Reflections on Hope,
Lies, Science, and Love_ (USA: Houghton Mifflin Company), 263pp., 37.
We're not talking about Dawkins. We're talking about you and your
propaganda tactics.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
16 Jun 2005 10:02:07 AM |
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Rev. Maeljin wrote:
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark, would Darwinist Rolle "feel right at home there"?
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp. On 33, from the entry for 23
September 1941:
Er, how to say it? Hitler's Table Talk is a forgery and Trevor Roper
destroyed his career supporting it.
"Hitler's Table Talk is a forgery"
Evidence?
Or are you referring to the bogus "Hitler Diaries," which appeared in
the early 1980s and which Trevor-Roper said were legitimate based in
part on a superficial look at it, later changing his mind just prior to
its publication in _The Times_?
"destroyed his career"
Did Trevor-Roper become Lord Dacre before or after he supposedly
destroyed his career?
Rosenbaum, Ron. 1998. _Explaining Hitler: The Search for the Origins
of His Evil_ (NY: Random House), 444pp., 76.
.
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| User: "Mitchell Coffey" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
18 Jun 2005 04:38:45 PM |
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On 16 Jun 2005 08:02:07 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
Rev. Maeljin wrote:
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark, would Darwinist Rolle "feel right at home there"?
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp. On 33, from the entry for 23
September 1941:
Er, how to say it? Hitler's Table Talk is a forgery and Trevor Roper
destroyed his career supporting it.
"Hitler's Table Talk is a forgery"
Evidence?
Or are you referring to the bogus "Hitler Diaries," which appeared in
the early 1980s and which Trevor-Roper said were legitimate based in
part on a superficial look at it, later changing his mind just prior to
its publication in _The Times_?
"destroyed his career"
Did Trevor-Roper become Lord Dacre before or after he supposedly
destroyed his career?
Rosenbaum, Ron. 1998. _Explaining Hitler: The Search for the Origins
of His Evil_ (NY: Random House), 444pp., 76.
Do you agree with Rosenbaum's opinion of Hitler's Table Talk?
Mitchell Coffey
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
25 Jun 2005 12:30:21 AM |
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Mitchell Coffey wrote:
On 16 Jun 2005 08:02:07 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
Rev. Maeljin wrote:
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark, would Darwinist Rolle "feel right at home there"?
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp. On 33, from the entry for 23
September 1941:
Er, how to say it? Hitler's Table Talk is a forgery and Trevor Roper
destroyed his career supporting it.
"Hitler's Table Talk is a forgery"
Evidence?
Or are you referring to the bogus "Hitler Diaries," which appeared in
the early 1980s and which Trevor-Roper said were legitimate based in
part on a superficial look at it, later changing his mind just prior to
its publication in _The Times_?
"destroyed his career"
Did Trevor-Roper become Lord Dacre before or after he supposedly
destroyed his career?
Rosenbaum, Ron. 1998. _Explaining Hitler: The Search for the Origins
of His Evil_ (NY: Random House), 444pp., 76.
Do you agree with Rosenbaum's opinion of Hitler's Table Talk?
What opinion is that?
.
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| User: "Altared Boy" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
16 Jun 2005 12:20:04 PM |
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The Pope has commented definitively on this issue.
http://ratzingerblog.blog.co.uk/main/
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| User: "Rev. Maeljin" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
16 Jun 2005 11:16:05 AM |
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david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Rev. Maeljin wrote:
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark, would Darwinist Rolle "feel right at home there"?
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp. On 33, from the entry for 23
September 1941:
Er, how to say it? Hitler's Table Talk is a forgery and Trevor Roper
destroyed his career supporting it.
"Hitler's Table Talk is a forgery"
Evidence?
Read it in a major newspaper here in Italy, many years ago.
Or are you referring to the bogus "Hitler Diaries," which appeared in
the early 1980s and which Trevor-Roper said were legitimate based in
part on a superficial look at it, later changing his mind just prior to
its publication in _The Times_?
No, to Hitler's Table Talk. The work of a notorious forger, Francois
Genoud, who apparently turned anti-catholicism into anti-christianity.
A series of deliberate mis-translations, to be precise.
"destroyed his career"
Did Trevor-Roper become Lord Dacre before or after he supposedly
destroyed his career?
after.
--
"Rev. Maeljin is a merry fellow;
Dull black his Glock is, and its brass-jacketed rounds are yellow."
Universal Life Church Minister, ordained December Seventh 2001
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
16 Jun 2005 10:30:00 PM |
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Rev. Maeljin wrote:
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Rev. Maeljin wrote:
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark, would Darwinist Rolle "feel right at home there"?
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp. On 33, from the entry for 23
September 1941:
Er, how to say it? Hitler's Table Talk is a forgery and Trevor Roper
destroyed his career supporting it.
"Hitler's Table Talk is a forgery"
Evidence?
Read it in a major newspaper here in Italy, many years ago.
How "many years ago"?
Name of the paper?
Is the newspaper more, or less, reliable than the _New York Times_?
(If 'less,' I wouldn't trust a word it says-- the _New York Times_ is
worthless in terms of trustworthiness.)
Or are you referring to the bogus "Hitler Diaries," which appeared in
the early 1980s and which Trevor-Roper said were legitimate based in
part on a superficial look at it, later changing his mind just prior to
its publication in _The Times_?
No, to Hitler's Table Talk. The work of a notorious forger, Francois
Genoud, who apparently turned anti-catholicism into anti-christianity.
A series of deliberate mis-translations, to be precise.
"mis-translations" of what-- a forged document?
a legitimate document that had a transcription of Hitler utterances?
"turned anti-catholicism into anti-christianity" Meaning what-- that
the 1953 book doesn't have "anti-catholicism"?
I'll ask again: what _evidence_ is there to suggest that the contents
of the 1953 book cited above were forged?
There are many mentions therein of special guests, e.g. Himmler or
Heydrich, on certain days. Have any of those mentions of special
guests not checked out, say e.g. Heydrich was actually in Warsaw on a
particular day, not in Berlin with Hitler?
1942 Heydrich
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407032023.243f5883%40posting.google.com
The Jews... no doubt a large part of them will be eliminated by
natural diminution. The survivors, the hardiest among them,
must be given an appropriate treatment, because they represent
a natural selection....
"destroyed his career"
Did Trevor-Roper become Lord Dacre before or after he supposedly
destroyed his career?
after.
When did Trevor-Roper become Lord Dacre? (I don't know.)
How did he become Lord Dacre "after" he supposedly destroyed his
career? (That'd be a neat trick.)
.
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| User: "Rev. Maeljin" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
17 Jun 2005 02:44:10 AM |
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david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Read it in a major newspaper here in Italy, many years ago.
How "many years ago"?
Name of the paper?
Is the newspaper more, or less, reliable than the _New York Times_?
(If 'less,' I wouldn't trust a word it says-- the _New York Times_ is
worthless in terms of trustworthiness.)
Three or four. Corriere della Sera. I don't have the slightest idea
about how much the times is reliable, and what you mean by reliable. If
you mean reliable like the Pravda, well, it's certainly better than
that.
Or are you referring to the bogus "Hitler Diaries," which appeared in
the early 1980s and which Trevor-Roper said were legitimate based in
part on a superficial look at it, later changing his mind just prior to
its publication in _The Times_?
No, to Hitler's Table Talk. The work of a notorious forger, Francois
Genoud, who apparently turned anti-catholicism into anti-christianity.
A series of deliberate mis-translations, to be precise.
"mis-translations" of what-- a forged document?
a legitimate document that had a transcription of Hitler utterances?
I seem to remember it was a translated from what Bormann's typist
recorded of conversations with Hitler, edited by Bormann, then heavily
manipulated in French by genoud, and then heavily manipulated in
English. There IS at leat a couple of true documents, in german. But
they are quite different from the Trevor-Roper version in English. Find
the German version, and translate them yourself, because I don't think
anybody else did so.
"turned anti-catholicism into anti-christianity" Meaning what-- that
the 1953 book doesn't have "anti-catholicism"?
I remember an example. Hitler ridiculed the idea of trasubstantiation,
and the translation corrupted the meaning of the discussion to the point
it seemed that Hitler was ridiculing resurrection. Attacking
trasubstantiation is typical Lutheran doctrine, not atheism.
Of course, I don't really have a great wish of investigating further the
matter. So if you are interested in the reliability of that book, go
search for yourself. Know that
When did Trevor-Roper become Lord Dacre? (I don't know.)
How did he become Lord Dacre "after" he supposedly destroyed his
career? (That'd be a neat trick.)
When I say after I mean after... he was already lord whatever. Seems he
turned complacent. :)
--
"Rev. Maeljin is a merry fellow;
Dull black his Glock is, and its brass-jacketed rounds are yellow."
Universal Life Church Minister, ordained December Seventh 2001
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
25 Jun 2005 12:48:07 AM |
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Rev. Maeljin wrote:
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Read it in a major newspaper here in Italy, many years ago.
How "many years ago"?
Name of the paper?
Is the newspaper more, or less, reliable than the _New York Times_?
(If 'less,' I wouldn't trust a word it says-- the _New York Times_ is
worthless in terms of trustworthiness.)
Three or four. Corriere della Sera. I don't have the slightest idea
about how much the times is reliable, and what you mean by reliable. If
you mean reliable like the Pravda, well, it's certainly better than
that.
OK.
Or are you referring to the bogus "Hitler Diaries," which appeared in
the early 1980s and which Trevor-Roper said were legitimate based in
part on a superficial look at it, later changing his mind just prior to
its publication in _The Times_?
No, to Hitler's Table Talk. The work of a notorious forger, Francois
Genoud, who apparently turned anti-catholicism into anti-christianity.
A series of deliberate mis-translations, to be precise.
"mis-translations" of what-- a forged document?
a legitimate document that had a transcription of Hitler utterances?
I seem to remember it was a translated from what Bormann's typist
recorded of conversations with Hitler, edited by Bormann, then heavily
manipulated in French by genoud, and then heavily manipulated in
English. There IS at leat a couple of true documents, in german. But
they are quite different from the Trevor-Roper version in English. Find
the German version, and translate them yourself, because I don't think
anybody else did so.
I'll take a look at some 1932-3 talks by Hitler, and see whether the
sentiments expressed then are similar to the sentiments expressed in
the 1953 book.
"turned anti-catholicism into anti-christianity" Meaning what-- that
the 1953 book doesn't have "anti-catholicism"?
I remember an example. Hitler ridiculed the idea of trasubstantiation,
and the translation corrupted the meaning of the discussion to the point
it seemed that Hitler was ridiculing resurrection. Attacking
trasubstantiation is typical Lutheran doctrine, not atheism.
My copy has a line where Hitler ridicules transubstantiation.
I suspect that several atheists through the years have ridiculed
transubstantiation.
Of course, I don't really have a great wish of investigating further the
matter. So if you are interested in the reliability of that book, go
search for yourself. Know that
When did Trevor-Roper become Lord Dacre? (I don't know.)
How did he become Lord Dacre "after" he supposedly destroyed his
career? (That'd be a neat trick.)
When I say after I mean after... he was already lord whatever. Seems he
turned complacent. :)
When did Trevor-Roper supposedly destroy his career?
And over what?
.
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| User: "josephus" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
26 Jun 2005 02:59:11 AM |
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david ford wrote:
Rev. Maeljin wrote:
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Read it in a major newspaper here in Italy, many years ago.
How "many years ago"?
Name of the paper?
Is the newspaper more, or less, reliable than the _New York Times_?
(If 'less,' I wouldn't trust a word it says-- the _New York Times_ is
worthless in terms of trustworthiness.)
Three or four. Corriere della Sera. I don't have the slightest idea
about how much the times is reliable, and what you mean by reliable. If
you mean reliable like the Pravda, well, it's certainly better than
that.
OK.
Or are you referring to the bogus "Hitler Diaries," which appeared in
the early 1980s and which Trevor-Roper said were legitimate based in
part on a superficial look at it, later changing his mind just prior to
its publication in _The Times_?
No, to Hitler's Table Talk. The work of a notorious forger, Francois
Genoud, who apparently turned anti-catholicism into anti-christianity.
A series of deliberate mis-translations, to be precise.
"mis-translations" of what-- a forged document?
a legitimate document that had a transcription of Hitler utterances?
I seem to remember it was a translated from what Bormann's typist
recorded of conversations with Hitler, edited by Bormann, then heavily
manipulated in French by genoud, and then heavily manipulated in
English. There IS at leat a couple of true documents, in german. But
they are quite different from the Trevor-Roper version in English. Find
the German version, and translate them yourself, because I don't think
anybody else did so.
I'll take a look at some 1932-3 talks by Hitler, and see whether the
sentiments expressed then are similar to the sentiments expressed in
the 1953 book.
"turned anti-catholicism into anti-christianity" Meaning what-- that
the 1953 book doesn't have "anti-catholicism"?
I remember an example. Hitler ridiculed the idea of trasubstantiation,
and the translation corrupted the meaning of the discussion to the point
it seemed that Hitler was ridiculing resurrection. Attacking
trasubstantiation is typical Lutheran doctrine, not atheism.
My copy has a line where Hitler ridicules transubstantiation.
I suspect that several atheists through the years have ridiculed
transubstantiation.
Of course, I don't really have a great wish of investigating further the
matter. So if you are interested in the reliability of that book, go
search for yourself. Know that
When did Trevor-Roper become Lord Dacre? (I don't know.)
How did he become Lord Dacre "after" he supposedly destroyed his
career? (That'd be a neat trick.)
When I say after I mean after... he was already lord whatever. Seems he
turned complacent. :)
When did Trevor-Roper supposedly destroy his career?
And over what?
David, you have stopped making sense. do you not care what the things
you say really mean? You lie by indirection, by omission. you distort
and prevaricate. you are obsessed with Hitler. and the bogus
references. You never consider that some of the people you refer to
invented the information whole cloth. You parrot the information as if
it were true. It is not.
The strangest thing is you give links that show you being refuted. It
is as if you really dont really understand anything.
You answer questions with questions. "Are you better than Himmeler?"
Who cares. I hope to be more moral than any of them, but I know I am
better than you.
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 10:06:50 AM |
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Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark, would Fritsch "feel right at home there"?
undated Theodor Fritsch-- Weikart characterizes Fritsch as [Weikart on
55]"a highly influential anti-Semitic publicist":
Morality and ethics arise from the law of preservation of
the species, of the race. Whatever insures the future of
the species, whatever is suited to raise the species to an
ever higher level of physical and mental perfection, that is
moral.
Cited in Weikart, 55.
About Weikart's book:
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407030531.19253d93%40posting.google.com
Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/6ab79a88a19145a0?
Hitler encounters the T0E: A Victory for Atheism
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/e9b71ae73bcf99a3?
.
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| User: "Boikat" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 10:16:56 AM |
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"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1118761610.038972.302870@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark, would Fritsch "feel right at home there"?
Does his views effect the validity of the ToE, or simply reflect how some
would *use* the ToE to achieve soem end, Herr Goebbels? So, should the ToE
be stifeled and hidden, Herr Goebbels?
Boikat
--
<42><
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 10:36:24 AM |
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Boikat wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1118761610.038972.302870@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark, would Fritsch "feel right at home there"?
Does his views effect the validity of the ToE, or simply reflect how some
would *use* the ToE to achieve soem end, Herr Goebbels?
The T0E is valid, regardless of any criticisms of it, and regardless of
how it is employed by various people.
concept of "blindwatchmaking"
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0401101006.38dc8f17%40posting.google.com
So, should the ToE
be stifeled and hidden, Herr Goebbels?
The T0E should be taught as the gospel truth it is, sans criticisms by
IDiots, and taught as the gospel truth especially to children.
Hitler encounters the T0E: A Victory for Atheism
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/e9b71ae73bcf99a3?
Stalin encounters the T0E: A Victory for Atheism
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/af7ba99b77080b21?
_All_ must heed the utterances of Darwin and his prophets.
Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/6ab79a88a19145a0?
Darwin only talks to and through his prophets.
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-37f8trF5cdutnU1%40individual.net
.
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| User: "Boikat" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 10:47:43 AM |
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"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1118763384.661584.159310@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Boikat wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1118761610.038972.302870@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right
at
home there.
Mark, would Fritsch "feel right at home there"?
Does his views effect the validity of the ToE, or simply reflect how
some
would *use* the ToE to achieve soem end, Herr Goebbels?
The T0E is valid, regardless of any criticisms of it, and regardless of
how it is employed by various people.
Then what is your point, herr Goebbels?
Boikat
--
<42><
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
17 Jun 2005 02:01:28 PM |
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Boikat wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1118763384.661584.159310@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Boikat wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1118761610.038972.302870@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right
at home there.
Mark, would Fritsch "feel right at home there"?
Does his views effect the validity of the ToE, or simply reflect how
some would *use* the ToE to achieve soem end, Herr Goebbels?
The T0E is valid, regardless of any criticisms of it, and regardless of
how it is employed by various people.
Then what is your point, herr Goebbels?
I have several points:
1. IDiots' failure to acknowledge the facts is due to
their emotionally-held religious convictions.
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406261739.60e1f6fd%40posting.google.com
2. Fire the IDiots from their jobs.
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0403121312.35d2e0c%40posting.google.com
While a "tenured professor at San Francisco State University in the
early 1980s, Kenyon faced hearings and was stripped of the
right to teach biology courses because he criticized some aspects of
neo-Darwinian theory." Ref in
1984 Dean Kenyon
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-34j9b2F4a5gioU1%40individual.net
3. *All* heretics-- including the "Lamarckist" Steele-- should be
allowed to go from their jobs. We almost got Steele out:
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-37ek4mF5bljo3U1%40individual.net
4. Baptists ought to be put in cages.
Ronald Numbers on Dennett
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=6hihi0pd6bbh9minslv76qrvmrpr3aea7m%404ax.com
Dennett: Baptists ought to be put in cages
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406241903.4c152fe7%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407101059.ab87e1f%40posting.google.com
.
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| User: "Boikat" |
|
| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
17 Jun 2005 03:42:51 PM |
|
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"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1119032398.553719.308960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Boikat wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1118763384.661584.159310@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Boikat wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1118761610.038972.302870@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel
right
at home there.
Mark, would Fritsch "feel right at home there"?
Does his views effect the validity of the ToE, or simply reflect how
some would *use* the ToE to achieve soem end, Herr Goebbels?
The T0E is valid, regardless of any criticisms of it, and regardless
of
how it is employed by various people.
Then what is your point, herr Goebbels?
I have several points:
Meanignless points? Okay. So?
For the record, you still seem bent on "Guilt by association" and "arguments
of adverse consequences", which are logical fallacies, and therefore, not
worth *****. Again, is there any point to your regurgiposting screed, other
than attempts at discrediting atheism and the ToE through your barrage of
GbA and AAE arguments?
Boikat
--
<42><
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| User: "Mark Isaak" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 03:25:32 PM |
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On 14 Jun 2005 08:06:50 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu>
wrote:
Mark Isaak wrote:
On 13 Jun 2005 david ford:
[blah blah blah]
David,
I think you want www.americannaziparty.com. You should feel right at
home there.
Mark, would Fritsch "feel right at home there"?
No. I am increasingly convinced that you would.
--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) earthlink (dot) net
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
exposing the country to danger." -- Hermann Goering
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler: law of selection justifies incessant struggle/ war |
14 Jun 2005 10:01:17 AM</ | | |
