| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"david ford" |
| Date: |
25 Mar 2005 09:19:13 PM |
| Object: |
Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
The affidavit extracts below demonstrate the falsity of the old media's
erroneous allegation that 'no one is home' in Terri Schindler Schiavo.
Also, Terri can anticipate and feel pain.
A U.S. judiciary run amok and a shameless American Criminal Liberties
Union are intent on murdering via starvation an innocent/ guiltless and
defenseless woman.
Decency demands that this unjustified, court-imposed death sentence on
Terri Schindler Schiavo be stopped.
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and
ACLU run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
From
http://www.hospicepatients.org/terri-schindler-schiavo-docs-links-page.html
from the PDF "Affidavit of William Cheshire, Jr., MD 03-23-05":
AFFIDAVIT
STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF DUVALL
Before me this day personally appeared William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D.,
who, being duly sworn, deposes and says:
I, William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D., have personal knowledge of the
facts stated in this declaration and, if called as a witness, I could
and would testify competently thereto under oath. I declare as follows:
I am a neurologist practicing in the State of Florida and am certified
by the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology. In regard to my
educational background, I received an A.B. in biochemical sciences from
Princeton University, an M.A. in bioethics from Trinity International
University, and an M.D. from West Virginia University. I completed an
internship in internal medicine at West Virginia University, a residency
in neurology and a pain fellowship at the University of North Carolina.
I am also an appointed volunteer with the Florida Statewide Adult
Protective Services team, in which capacity I was called on March 1,
2005, to provide an independent and objective medical review of
allegations of possible abuse, neglect, or exploitation of Ms. Theresa
Marie Schiavo.
Although no one from the Department of Children and Families has
inquired about my personal views about treatment decisions in cases of
persistent vegetative state (PVS), I would like to disclose that I came
into this case with the belief that it can be ethically permissible to
discontinue artificially provided nutrition and hydration for patients
in a persistent vegetative state. Having now reviewed the relevant
facts, having met and observed Ms. Schiavo in person, and having
reflected deeply on the moral and ethical issues, I would like to
explain why I change my mind in regard to this particular case.
.....
Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS. These include:
1. Her behavior is frequently context-specific. For example, her
facial expression brightens and she smiles in response to the voice of
familiar persons such as her parents or her nurse. Her agitation
subsides and her facial demeanor softens when quiet music is played.
When jubilant piano music is played, her face brightens, she lifts her
eyebrows, smiles, and even laughs. Her lateral gaze toward the tape
player is sustained for many minutes. Several times I witnessed Terri
briefly, albeit inconsistently, laugh in response to a humorous comment
someone in the room had made. I did not see her laugh in the absence of
someone else's laughter.
2. Although she does not seem to track or follow visual objects
consistently or for long periods of time, she does fixate her gaze on
colorful objects or human faces for some 15 seconds at a time and
occasionally follows with her eyes at least briefly as these objects
move from side to side. When I first walked into her room, she
immediately turned her head toward me and looked directly at my face.
There was a lot of curiosity or expectation in her expression, and she
maintained eye contact for about half a minute. Later, when she again
looked at me, she brought her lips together as if to pronounce the
letter "O," and although for a moment it appeared that she might be
making an intentional effort to speak, her face then fell blank, and no
words came out.
3. Although I did not hear Terri utter distinct words, she demonstrates
emotional expressivity by her use of a single syllable of vocalizations
such as "ah," making cooing sounds, or by expressing guttural sounds of
annoyance or moaning appropriate to the context of the situation. The
context-specific range and the variability of her vocalizations suggests
at least a reasonable probability of the processing of emotional thought
within her brain. There have been reports of Terri rarely using actual
words specific to her situational context. The July 25, 2003 affidavit
of the speech pathologist Sarah Green Mole, MS, on page 6, reads, "The
records of Mediplex reflect the fact that she has said 'stop' in
apparent response to a medical procedure being done to her." The Adult
Protective Services team has been unable to retrieve those original
medical records in this instance.
4. Although Terri has not consistently followed commands, there
appeared to be some notable exceptions. In the taped examination by Dr.
Hammesfahr from 2002, when asked to close her eyes she began to blink
repeatedly. Although it was unclear whether she squeezed her grip when
asked, she did appear to raise her right leg four times in succession
each time she was asked to do so. Rehabilitation notes from 1991
indicated that she tracked inconsistently, and although she did not
develop a yes/no communication system, did follow some commands
inconsistently and demonstrated good eye contact to family members.
5. There is a remarkable moment in the videotape of the September 3,
2002 examination by Dr. Hammesfahr that seemed to go unnoticed at the
time. At 2:44 p.m., Dr. Hammesfahr had just turned Terri onto her right
side to examine her back with a painful sharp stimulus (a sharp piece of
wood), to which Terri had responded with signs of discomfort. Well
after he ceased applying the stimulus and had returned Terri to a
comfortable position, he says to her parents, "So, we're going to have
to roll her over...." Immediately Terri cries. She vocalizes a crying
sound, "Ugh, ha, ha, ha," presses her eyebrows together, and sadly
grimaces. It is important to note that, at that moment, no one is
touching Terri or causing actual pain. Rather, she appears to
comprehend the meaning of Dr. Hammesfahr's comment and she signals her
_anticipation_ of pain. This response suggests some degree of language
processing and interpretation at the level of the cerebral cortex. It
also suggests that she may be aware of pain beyond what could be
explained by simple reflex withdrawal.
6. According to the definition of PVS published by the American Academy
of Neurology, "persistent vegetative state patients do not have the
capacity to experience pain or suffering. Pain and suffering are
attributes of consciousness requiring cerebral cortical functioning, and
patients who are permanently and completely unconscious cannot
experience these symptoms."^6 And yet, in my review of Terri's medical
records, pain issues keep surfacing. The nurses at Woodside Hospice
told us that she often has pain with menstrual cramps. Menstrual flow
is associated with agitation, repeated or sustained moaning, facial
grimacing, limb posturing, and facial flushing, all of which subside
once she is given ibuprofen. Some of the records document moaning,
crying, and other painful behavior in the setting of urinary tract
infections.
.....
7. To enter the room of Terri Schiavo is nothing like entering the room
of a patient who is comatose or brain-dead or in some neurological sense
no longer there. Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90
minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness,
or volitional behavior, yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the
presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of
some things around her.
As I looked at Terri, and she gazed directly back at me, I asked myself
whether, if I were her attending physician, I could in good conscience
withdraw nutrition and hydration. No, I could not. I could not
withdraw life support if I were asked. I could not withhold
life-sustaining nutrition and hydration from this beautiful lady whose
face brightens in the presence of others.
The neurologic signs are in many ways ambiguous. There is no guarantee
that more sophisticated testing would definitively resolve that
ambiguity to everyone's satisfaction. There would be value, I think, in
obtaining a functional MRI scan if that is possible.
This situation differs fundamentally from end-of-life scenarios where it
is appropriate to withdraw life-sustaining medical interventions that no
longer benefit or are burdensome to patients in the terminal stages of
illness. Terri's feeding tube is not a burden to her. It is not
painful, is not infected, is not eroding her stomach lining or causing
any medical complications. But for the decision to withdraw her feeding
tube, Terri cannot be considered medically terminal. But for the
withdrawal of food and water, she would not die [well, she would not die
now-- everybody dies eventually, sometimes sooner rather than later. We
never know when we will go to meet our Maker. -df].
In summary, Terri [Schindler] Schiavo demonstrates behaviors in a
variety of cognitive domains that call into question the previous
neurologic diagnosis of persistent vegetative state. Specifically, she
has demonstrated behaviors that are context-specific, sustained, and
indicative of a cerebral cortical processing that, upon careful
neurologic consideration, would not be expected in a persistent
vegetative state.
Based on this evidence, I believe that, within a reasonable degree of
medical certainty, there is a greater likelihood that Terri is in a
minimally conscious state than a persistent vegetative state. This
distinction makes an enormous difference in making ethical decisions on
Terri's behalf. If Terri is sufficiently aware of her surroundings that
she can feel pleasure and suffer, if she is capable of understanding to
some degree how she is being treated, then in my judgment it would be
wrong to bring about her death by withdrawing food and water.
At the time of this writing, Terri Schiavo, as the result of the
decisions based on what I have argued to be a faulty diagnosis of
persistent vegetative state, has been without food or water for 5 days.
She is thus at risk of death or serious injury unless the provision of
food and water can be restored. Terri Schiavo lacks the capacity to
consent to emergency protective services and must trust others to act on
her behalf. If she were to be transferred to another facility, it would
be medically necessary first to initiate hydration and ensure that her
serum electrolytes are within normal values.
How medicine and society choose to think about Terri [Schindler] Schiavo
will influence what kind of people we will be as we evaluate and respond
to the needs of the most vulnerable people among us. When serious
doubts exist as to whether a cognitively impaired person is or is not
consciously aware, even if these doubts cannot be conclusively resolved,
it is better to err on the side of protecting vulnerable life.
Respectfully submitted,
William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D., M.A., F.A.A.N.
[signature]
Sworn to (or affirmed) and subscribed before me this 23[rd] day of
March, 2005, by William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D.
[notary stamp and signature]
======================================================================
articles: livelier ones are by Thomas Sowell and William Kristol. Eric
Cohen's is very thoughtful.
http://www.townhall.com
Cal Thomas: Schiavo case matters in symbol and substance
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adfseF68nkocU1%40individual.net
Justifications for taking of human life?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aj33dF67kgcuU2%40individual.net
any atheists against Terri Schindler Schiavo's being starved to death?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adrlvF69l60hU1%40individual.net
1997 Wesley Smith on Germany's slippery slope slide from devaluing some
human life to a little euthanasia/ killing to mass killings
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3abe1cF6ac7t2U1%40individual.net
ACLU: Legal Terrorists
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/11/27/195402.shtml
Terri Schindler Schiavo Case
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/10/16/223430.shtml
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43463
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and
ACLU run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
.
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| User: "josephus" |
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| Title: Re: blog of some IDCists |
28 May 2005 10:06:00 PM |
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david ford wrote:
http://www.idthefuture.com/
It stands to reason, David Ford agrees with them. But it is still not
valid. No one validates anything on the blogs.
Is the ID party line mean to be helpful? like Dembrsky saying teenagers
are stupid. I think because they do not accept his premise.
There is concentrated vacuousness here.
josephus
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Hitler was a materialist/ atheist |
07 Jun 2005 10:05:46 AM |
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Hitler was a materialist/ atheist. In reading sections from _Hitler's
Secret Conversations: 1941-1944_, I may as well be reading Dawkins.
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp.
Hitler opposed Christianity
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/47c284defb4765dd?
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| User: "Chris Thompson" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler was a materialist/ atheist |
07 Jun 2005 10:40:54 AM |
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"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in
news:dford3-1118156740.993876.318210@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
Hitler was a materialist/ atheist.
You're wrong, but even if you're right, so what?
Other atheists:
Bill Blass
George Carlin
Paul Ehrlich
Dave Barry
Brian Eno
***** Cavett
Warren Buffet
Nadine Gortimer
Donald Sutherland
George Soros
Harlan Ellison
Gore Vidal
Rob Sapolsky
Terry Pratchett
Jack Nicholson
Ian McKellan
Stanislaw Lem
Arthur Miller
Samuel Clemens
and yeah,
Pol Pot
Joseph Stalin
and I am sure a bunch of other nasty folks you wouldn't want at a
cocktail party.
Only true morons would attempt to derive some meaning from these lists.
--
Chris
aa#2186
Godwin'd by David Ford
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler was a materialist/ atheist |
07 Jun 2005 10:27:41 AM |
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In article <dford3-1118156740.993876.318210@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> writes:
Hitler was a materialist/ atheist. In reading sections from _Hitler's
Secret Conversations: 1941-1944_, I may as well be reading Dawkins.
And in reading Martin Luther on the Jews, I might as well
be reading Hitler.
- cary
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| User: "Robert J. Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler was a materialist/ atheist |
07 Jun 2005 11:31:15 AM |
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Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article <dford3-1118156740.993876.318210@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> writes:
Hitler was a materialist/ atheist. In reading sections from _Hitler's
Secret Conversations: 1941-1944_, I may as well be reading Dawkins.
And in reading Martin Luther on the Jews, I might as well
be reading Hitler.
Good point. Martin Leuther was granted membership #2 in the NSADAP right
after Richard Wagner who got membership #1. M.L. would have made an
execellent extermination kamp OberKommandent.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler was a materialist/ atheist |
07 Jun 2005 11:34:43 AM |
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Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article <dford3-1118156740.993876.318210@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> writes:
Hitler was a materialist/ atheist. In reading sections from _Hitler's
Secret Conversations: 1941-1944_, I may as well be reading Dawkins.
And in reading Martin Luther on the Jews, I might as well
be reading Hitler.
Have you engaged "in reading Martin Luther on the Jews"?
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler was a materialist/ atheist |
07 Jun 2005 12:23:29 PM |
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In article <dford3-1118162083.795235.75740@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> writes:
Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article <dford3-1118156740.993876.318210@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> writes:
Hitler was a materialist/ atheist. In reading sections from _Hitler's
Secret Conversations: 1941-1944_, I may as well be reading Dawkins.
And in reading Martin Luther on the Jews, I might as well
be reading Hitler.
Have you engaged "in reading Martin Luther on the Jews"?
I have no idea what "Have you engaged in..." means, but
yes, I have read about Martin Luther's writings on Jews,
I have read about the influence of Martin Luther's writings
on Jews with regard to its effects on German anti-Semitism,
and I have read quotes from Martin Luther on the Jews.
You can read these too if you wish; here's a few of the more pithy
ones, all from Luther's tract "On the Jews and their Lies":
Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever
they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in
which sheer self-glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of
God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on
them.
Moreover, they are nothing but thieves and robbers who daily eat no
morsel and wear no thread of clothing which they have not stolen and
pilfered from us by means of their accursed usury. Thus they live
from day to day, together with wife and child, by theft and robbery,
as arch-thieves and robbers, in the most impenitent security.
Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble, precious
jewel that God and all the angels dance when he farts?
Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter
but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our
souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death.
My advice, as I said earlier, is:
First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are
able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also
throw in some hellfire...
Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic
writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving
them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be
converted...
Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to
give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our
country...
Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our
hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or
tolerate it...
They [rulers] must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has
set in proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins,
bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this
instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated
earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did...
If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs.
[all taken from: http://www.nobeliefs.com/luther.htm]
-- cary
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler was a materialist/ atheist |
07 Jun 2005 12:08:44 PM |
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On 7 Jun 2005 09:34:43 -0700,
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article <dford3-1118156740.993876.318210@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> writes:
Hitler was a materialist/ atheist. In reading sections from _Hitler's
Secret Conversations: 1941-1944_, I may as well be reading Dawkins.
And in reading Martin Luther on the Jews, I might as well
be reading Hitler.
Have you engaged "in reading Martin Luther on the Jews"?
Ah my, I guess you don't like it when two play at that game. Luther's
hatred of Jews is very well documented, but fit right in with the general
feeling towards Jews by kindly Christians of the age. In fact, I'd say that
backdrop of anti-Semitism all but guaranteed the Holocaust. Whatever Hitler
may or may not have believed, there were Catholics and Protestants rounding
up and killing Jews.
The authenticity of these "secret conversations" has been questioned, and
beyond that, who cares? It's not as if evil people believing a theory has
any weight on the usefullness of that theory. You never change David, you
are as pathetic and lacking in anything approaching intellectual honesty as
ever.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
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| User: "Ben Kaufman" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler was a materialist/ atheist |
10 Jun 2005 12:22:44 AM |
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On 7 Jun 2005 08:05:46 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Hitler was a materialist/ atheist. In reading sections from _Hitler's
Secret Conversations: 1941-1944_, I may as well be reading Dawkins.
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp.
Hitler opposed Christianity
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/47c284defb4765dd?
http://www.unknownnews.net/hitler-church.jpg
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler was a materialist/ atheist |
07 Jun 2005 10:49:06 AM |
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On 7 Jun 2005 08:05:46 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Hitler was a materialist/ atheist. In reading sections from _Hitler's
Secret Conversations: 1941-1944_, I may as well be reading Dawkins.
David Ford is a deliberately nasty, stupid liar who refuses to admit
that (a) not believing in the deity of somebody else's religion is no
diiffferent than not believing in Santa Claus, and (b) Hitler was a
Catholic who claimed he was doing the Lord's work.
When are these morons going to stop lying and own up to their
religion's bloody history?
The liar has had the writings of Martin Luther pointed out to him
many times, and that the holocaust was carried out by people who were
Christians - after all, it is obly Christioans who can think of Jews
as Christ-killers.
This is a blood libel encouraged by the churches until well after the
reformation.
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| User: "Ben Kaufman" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler was a materialist/ atheist |
10 Jun 2005 12:29:37 AM |
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On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 11:49:06 -0400, "Christopher A. Lee" <calee@optonline.net>
wrote:
On 7 Jun 2005 08:05:46 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Hitler was a materialist/ atheist. In reading sections from _Hitler's
Secret Conversations: 1941-1944_, I may as well be reading Dawkins.
David Ford is a deliberately nasty, stupid liar who refuses to admit
that (a) not believing in the deity of somebody else's religion is no
diiffferent than not believing in Santa Claus, and (b) Hitler was a
Catholic who claimed he was doing the Lord's work.
When are these morons going to stop lying and own up to their
religion's bloody history?
The liar has had the writings of Martin Luther pointed out to him
many times, and that the holocaust was carried out by people who were
Christians - after all, it is obly Christioans who can think of Jews
as Christ-killers.
This is a blood libel encouraged by the churches until well after the
reformation.
The big mystery to me is how could "Christ" be killed? How do you kill an
immortal supreme being? If he didn't go through that whole Jesus chain saw
massacre story there would be no Christian religion.
Ben
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| User: "Mark Isaak" |
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| Title: David Ford and Hitler were materialists |
07 Jun 2005 08:33:17 PM |
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On 7 Jun 2005 08:05:46 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Hitler was a materialist/ atheist. In reading sections from _Hitler's
Secret Conversations: 1941-1944_, I may as well be reading Dawkins.
[...]
Given that david ford, the source for that claim, is very like Hitler
in his love for misleading propaganda, is there any reason we pay any
attention to him?
--
Mark Isaak eciton (at) earthlink (dot) net
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are
being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
exposing the country to danger." -- Hermann Goering
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| User: "Mitchell Coffey" |
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| Title: Re: David Ford and Hitler were materialists |
09 Jun 2005 12:43:46 AM |
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On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 01:33:17 GMT, Mark Isaak
<eciton@earthlinkNOSPAM.next> wrote:
On 7 Jun 2005 08:05:46 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Hitler was a materialist/ atheist. In reading sections from _Hitler's
Secret Conversations: 1941-1944_, I may as well be reading Dawkins.
[...]
Given that david ford, the source for that claim, is very like Hitler
in his love for misleading propaganda, is there any reason we pay any
attention to him?
Hitler wasn't a philosophical materialist, nor an Atheist. More to
the point, (1) the Secret Conversations weren't secret, they were
clearly meant to be edited for future publication. (2) They are not
necessarily reliable texts, particularly the later ones. (3) I
haven't seen any atheisms expressed in them. (Which doesn't mean there
isn't any.) There's quite a bit of bashing of Christianity, but also
a goodly amount of pro-Christian talk. One of the problems was that
several of the people in charge of collecting and editing the note of
the Conversations were notoriously anti-Christian. These included
Martin Borman. It was reported by Albert Speer that Borman would put
away his notebook when Hitler said something positive about
Christianity, but would pull it out when the boss started belittling
something about Christianity or Church doctrine.
Ford is either reading an edition with the pro-religion things edited
out, or lying, which is rather a reflex with him.
Mitchell Coffey
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler was a materialist/ atheist |
09 Jun 2005 06:06:54 AM |
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There were a large number of German atheists in post-Darwin,
pre-Holocaust Germany, considering the huge numbers of materialism
conversion experiences engendered by the pop-science writings of
Haeckel and Buchner. Ref:
Weikart, Richard. 2004. _From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics,
Eugenics, and Racism in Germany_ (USA: Palgrave Macmillan), 312pp., 12.
About Weikart's book:
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407030531.19253d93%40posting.google.com
Goldschmidt's atheist conversion experience
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-38m3vrF5o7bk2U1%40individual.net
Einstein's freethought atheist conversion experience
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-37f67dF59po8jU1%40individual.net
The vast expansion of atheism following the publication of Darwin's
1859 _Origin of Species_ helped bring about a Darwinian a-moral climate
that in turn helped make the Holocaust possible.
Every account of human origins has a corresponding view of human
morality/ethics, and every view of human morality has a corresponding
account of human origins.
See
Wiker, Benjamin. 2002. _Moral Darwinism:
How We Became Hedonists_ (Downers Grove, Illinois:
InterVarsity Press), 327pp.
It should come as no surprise that much of what ails American society
(for example abortion, violence and murder, high rates of
sexually-transmitted diseases, and death-by-starvation of the disabled)
are an outgrowth of materialism influencing the thinking of Americans,
especially elite and influential Americans.
Compare
Haeckel on murdering the disabled
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3a8etdF65smnrU4%40individual.net
Convert to secular humanism to enjoy guiltless sexual activity of many
varieties.
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0409241109.17e2611d%40posting.google.com
The prevalence of the worldview philosophy of materialism/atheism among
the elite in America (specifically those in many churches, the courts
and legal system and law education, other higher education and
secondary education, and the media), contributed to the appearance of a
culture of death, which contributed to Terri Schindler Schiavo's being
starved to death. A handful of individuals wearing Supreme Court robes
accelerated our culture's slide downward to a culture of death with the
1973 _Roe v. Wade_ ruling.
1979 Schaeffer & Koop on the a-moral implications of materialism
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504061225.4c675814%40posting.google.com
Darwinists downgrading the value of human life
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-399aluF5uql89U1%40individual.net
any atheists against Terri Schindler Schiavo's being starved to death?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adrlvF69l60hU1%40individual.net
1922 Nordau; 1976 Reagan; 1997 Wesley Smith on Germany's slippery slope
slide from devaluing some human life to a little euthanasia/ killing to
mass killings
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3abe1cF6ac7t2U1%40individual.net
It is vitally important that the intelligent design revolution occur
and sweep materialism/atheism out of society, especially out of the
aforementioned consciousness-raising/ influencers sectors of society.
Only then can a culture of life appear, where humans are viewed as
created in the image of the God of theism and thus extremely special
and due respect and honor and good behavior towards. As it is, our
culture of death presently aborts millions of pre-born human lives each
year, has much abuse of children and violence, and is creeping toward
mass infanticide and killing of the disabled and elderly. Human life
is cheap in a materialist/atheistic universe.
In short, the stakes are very high in the debate of creation/
intelligent design versus evolution/atheism/materialism.
The creation versus evolution battle is of foundational importance.
Not only is intelligent design theory good for society, but it's also
correct given the evidence from biology and physics.
See
Reality vs. worldview philosophy of materialism/ atheism
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3813ksF5ggkc3U1%40individual.net
On the Origin of Life
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-39oh33F63riraU1%40individual.net
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Hitler was a homosexual
Berlin in the 1920s has some intriguing parallels with America of the
2000s.
See
Friedrich, Otto. 1972. _Before the Deluge: A Portrait of Berlin in
the 1920s_ (NY: Harper & Row, Publishers), 418pp., 127-31
(prostitution, transvestites), 233-4 (sexual 'reformers' preaching
'tolerance' of anything), 330-44 (mass murderers, murder, cocaine
addiction).
In the very early 1900s, there were homosexual subcultures in many
European capitals, e.g. Vienna, and in New York City.
See
Machtan, Lothar. 2001. _The Hidden Hitler_, translated by John
Brownjohn, notes translated by Susanne Ehlert (USA: Basic Books),
434pp., 48, 51, 59, 128.
On Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465043097/qid=1117047383/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-5363513-6758530?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Some will choose to deny the parallels between Europe of the early
1900s and America of the 2000s, and engage in Darwinian a-moral climate
denial. Such denial has occurred before-- see the thread associated
with
1940 Nazi film "All Life is Struggle" embraced Darwinian natural
selection
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407042043.1c2ccf1f%40posting.google.com
review of _Cruel World: The Children of Europe in the Nazi Web_
http://www.washingtontimes.com/books/20050514-102418-1431r.htm
Adolf Hitler even proposed state-supported plural
marriages.
Compare today's push by some for polyamory, e.g. see the
Unitarian Universalists for Polyamory Awareness brochure "Are We Ready
for This?"
http://www.uupa.org/AreWeReady.htm
Eva Braun, a supposed mistress of Hitler, was actually a prop: she and
Hitler weren't sexually involved. Ref:
Machtan, 169-171.
Lipstadt, Deborah E. 1986. _Beyond Belief: The American Press and the
Coming of the Holocaust 1933-1945_ (New York: The Free Press), 370pp.,
37 (during a 1933 Nazi parade, a reporter points to the Nazi leadership
and identifies Roehm as a former lover of Hitler, and identifies
another person there as the current lover of Hitler).
[?: did American reporters on assignment in Berlin fail to report on
Hitler's homosexuality in part because to do so would remove them from
the good graces of their colleagues?]
From
http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/library/donovan/hitler/
OSS report on pages numbered 135-6:
5. Hitler was chiefly attracted during these early years to
a homosexual, Ernst Roehm, a superior officer with an
upperclass background. The physical strength and social
assurance of Roehm were much envied and, to have the
political backing of such a figure, gave Hitler a sense of
security.
On 19:
(iv) attraction to Roehm and other domineering
homosexuals;....
It was the case that [OSS report on 201]"a large proportion of
homosexuals" resided in the leadership of the Nazi Party--
[Goebbels]"the entire leadership of the Party."
Goebbels: some SA leaders [Goebbels]"were on the point of exposing the
entire leadership of the Party to suspicions of shameful and loathsome
sexual abnormality"
Cited in Machtan, 215-16, who analyzes the remark and concludes it
wasn't sophistry or propaganda, but instead "a reflex reaction to a
very real threat."
Machtan, 185-6: remarks by Goebbels, a student, and an art historian
about the many homosexuals in the SA.
Compare:
Hitler was a materialist/ atheist. In reading sections from _Hitler's
Secret Conversations: 1941-1944_, I may as well be reading Dawkins.
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp.
Hitler opposed Christianity
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/47c284defb4765dd?
the second half of Romans 1
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%201;&version=65;
OSS report on 201:
(v) Attraction to homosexuals followed by their murder.
It is known that Hitler had a special admiration for
Roehm; whether it was this individual or Hitler himself
who was chiefly responsible in attracting such a large
proportion of homosexuals to the Nazi Party is uncertain,
but it is known that after two or three months of anxiety
and delusions to the effect that Roehm and his fellow
homosexuals were plotting to usurp power Hitler had
them all murdered in the purge of 1934.
On 137:
9. Among the reasons given in extenuation of the cold-
blooded purge of 1934 were (a) that the victims were
disgusting homosexuals and (b) that they were plotting to
snatch the power and supercede him.
On 13-14:
_This mechanism whereby a man sees his own wicked
impulses or weaknesses in others, _is called projection_.
It is one way, _the paranoid way_, _of maintaining
self-esteem_. The mechanism occurs so constantly
in Hitler that it is possible to get a very good idea of
the repudiated portions of his own personality by noticing
what he condemns in others -- treachery, lying,
corruption, war-mongering, etc.
Objection: But wasn't Hitler openly against homosexuality?
See especially the quote just above. Compare:
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
From
http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/library/donovan/hitler/
on pages numbered 5-6:
1. (b) _Admiration of Pure Noble German Blood,
Contempt of Jewish, Slav and Other Blood_. -- Hitler
has always extolled the superior qualities of pure,
unmixed, and uncorrupted German blood. He admires
the aristocracy. Concurrently he has never ceased
expressing his contempt of the lower classes and his
aversion to admixtures of the blood of other races, of
Jewish blood especially;
_and yet_ -
_Hitler's own Origins are Not Noble Or Beyond
Reproach_. -- Hitler comes from _illiterate peasant
stock_ derived from a mixture of races, no pure German
among them. His father was _illegitimate_, was married
three times, and is said to have been conspicuous for
sexual promiscuity. Hitler's mother was a domestic
servant. It is said that Hitler's father's father was a Jew,
and it is certain that his _godfather was a Jew_; and that
one of his sisters managed a restaurant for Jewish
students in Vienna and another was, for a time, the
mistress of a Jew. Hitler's appearance, when he wore a
long beard during his outcast Vienna days, was said to be
very Jewish. Of these facts he is evidently ashamed.
Unlike Napoleon, he has rejected all his relations.
See also 153-4.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Do you agree with this?:
someone who engages in heterosexual affairs or homosexual activity will
probably prevaricate in connection with attempts to hide such actions.
Do you consider "lies" the press reports mentioned here?:
From
http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/library/donovan/hitler/
on 183:
Although the Press has led the German people to believe
periodically that Hitler had found the girl he was looking
for all these years, a good many close observers have
come to the conclusion that he is asexual.
On 204:
It is reported by Rauschning that Hitler has had overt
homosexual relations and in this connection has
mentioned three lovers; one, Forster (Gauleiter of
Danzig).
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler was a materialist/ atheist |
10 Jun 2005 11:37:52 AM |
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/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
YHWH was a homosexual
PreExilic Israel has some intriguing parallels with America of the
2000s.
See
Frederique, Otho. 1772. _Before the Deluge: A Portrait of Jerusalem
in
the 7th century BCE_ (NY: Harper & Row, Publishers), 418pp., 127-31
(prostitution, transvestites), 233-4 (sexual 'reformers' preaching
'tolerance' of anything), 330-44 (mass murderers, murder, alchohol
addiction).
In the very early Iron Age, there were homosexual subcultures in many
Mediterranean capitals, e.g. Babylon, and in Athens.
See
Motan, Laktar. 2003. _The Hidden JHWH_, translated by John
Brownjohn, notes translated by Susanne Ehlert (USA: Acidic Books),
434pp., 48, 51, 59, 128.
On Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465043097/qid=11170473...
Some will choose to deny the parallels between Israel of early
antiquity and America of the 2000s, and engage in Heliocentrist a-moral
climate
denial. Such denial has occurred before-- see the thread associated
with the book of Ecclesiastes embraced Darwinian natural selection
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407042043.1c2ccf1f%4...
review of _Cruel World: The Children of Eber in the Divine Web_
http://www.washingtontimes.com/books/20050514-102418-1431r.htm
Moses even proposed state-supported plural
marriages.
Compare today's push by some for polyamory, e.g. see the
Unitarian Universalists for Polyamory Awareness brochure "Are We Ready
for This?"
http://www.uupa.org/AreWeReady.htm
Deborah, a supposed Judge of YHWH, was actually a prop: she and
JHWH weren't sexually involved. Ref:
Maktar, 169-171.
Lipstadt, Deborah E. 1986. _Beyond Belief: The Babylonian Press and the
Coming of the Exile 633-545_ (New York: The Free Press), 370pp.,
37 (during a 633 Assyrian parade, a reporter points to the Assyrian
leadership
and identifies Assurbanipal as a former lover of Assur, and identifies
another person there as the current lover of Assur).
[?: did Babylonian reporters on assignment in Nineveh fail to report
on
Assur's homosexuality in part because to do so would remove them from
the book of the living?]
From
http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/library/donovan/david/
OSS report on pages numbered 135-6:
5. David was chiefly attracted during these early years to
a homosexual, Jonathan, a superior officer with an
royal background. The physical strength and social
assurance of Jonathan were much envied and, to have the
political backing of such a figure, gave David a sense of
security.
On 19:
(iv) attraction to Jonathan and other domineering
homosexuals;....
It was the case that [OSS report on 201]"a large proportion of
homosexuals" resided in the leadership of the Palace--
[Ezekiel]"the entire leadership of the Temple."
Ezekiel: some leaders among the prophetic party [Ezekiel]"were on the
point of exposing the entire leadership of the Temple to suspicions of
shameful and loathsome
sexual abnormality"
Cited in Maktar, 215-16, who analyzes the remark and concludes it
wasn't sophistry or propaganda, but instead "a reflex reaction to a
very real threat."
Maktar, 185-6: remarks by Ezekiel, a student, and a religious reformer
about the many homosexuals in the Priestly party.
Compare:
YHWH was a materialist/ atheist. In reading sections from _The Secret
Books of Enoch: 141-44_, I may as well be reading Dawkins.
YHWH, Adonai, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. John Desposyni, as prepared by YHWH's
secretary John the Apostle. 153. _The Secret Books of Enoch:
141-44_, translated by Norman Camera and H.R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of God" by H.R.H. Trevor-the-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp.
Paul opposed Creationism
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/47c284defb4765dd?
the first half of Romans 1:23
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%201;&version=53;
OSS report on 201:
(v) Attraction to homosexuals followed by their murder.
It is known that Saul had a special admiration for
David; whether it was this individual or Saul himself
who was chiefly responsible in attracting such a large
proportion of homosexuals to the Throne is uncertain,
but it is known that after two or three months of anxiety
and delusions to the effect that David and his fellow
homosexuals were plotting to usurp power Saul tried to
have them all murdered in the purge of 1034.
On 137:
9. Among the reasons given in extenuation of the cold-
blooded purge of 1034 were (a) that the victims were
disgusting homosexuals and (b) that they were plotting to
snatch the power and supercede him.
On 13-14:
_This mechanism whereby a man sees his own wicked
impulses or weaknesses in others, _is called projection_.
It is one way, _the paranoid way_, _of maintaining
self-esteem_. The mechanism occurs so constantly
in YHWH that it is possible to get a very good idea of
the repudiated portions of his own personality by noticing
what he condemns in others -- treachery, lying,
corruption, war-mongering, etc.
Objection: But wasn't YHWH openly against homosexuality?
See especially the quote just above. Compare:
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
From
http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/library/donovan/abraham/
on pages numbered 5-6:
1. (b) _Admiration of Pure Noble Blood,
Contempt of Other Blood_. -- Abraham has always extolled
the superior qualities of pure, unmixed, and uncorrupted
Hebrew blood. He admires the aristocracy. Concurrently
he has never ceased expressing his contempt of the
lower classes and his aversion to admixtures of the
blood of other races, of Canaanite blood especially;
_and yet_ -
_Abraham's own Origins are Not Noble Or Beyond
Reproach_. -- Abraham comes from _illiterate peasant
stock_ derived from a mixture of races, no pure Shemite
among them. His father was _illegitimate_, was married
twice, and is said to have been conspicuous for
sexual promiscuity. Abraham's mother was a domestic
servant. It is said that Abraham's son's son was a Jew,
and it is certain that his _Godfather was a Jew_; and that
one of his nieces managed a restaurant for Jewish
students in Ur Kasdim and another was, for a time, the
mistress of a Jew. Abraham's appearance, when he wore a
long beard during his outcast Kiriath-Arba days, was said to be
very Jewish. Of these facts he is evidently ashamed.
Unlike Napoleon, he has rejected all his relations.
See also 153-4.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Do you agree with this?:
someone who engages in heterosexual affairs or homosexual activity will
probably prevaricate in connection with attempts to hide such actions.
Do you consider "lies" the press reports mentioned here?:
From
http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/library/donovan/jesus/
on 183:
Although the Press has led the Jewish people to believe
periodically that Jesus had found the girl he was looking
for all these years, a good many close observers have
come to the conclusion that he is asexual.
On 204:
It is reported by Rauschningle that Jesus has had overt
homosexual relations and in this connection has
mentioned three lovers; one, John the Apostle (Bishop of
Antioch).
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Hitler encounters the T0E: A Victory for Atheism |
10 Jun 2005 06:32:58 AM |
|
|
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp. On 69, from the entry for 24
October 1941:
Religion is in perpetual conflict with the spirit of
free research. The Church's opposition to science
was sometimes so violent that it struck off sparks.
The Church, with a clear awareness of her
interests, has made a strategic retreat, with the
result that science has lost some of its
aggressiveness. The present system of teaching in
schools permits the following absurdity: at 10 a.m.
the pupils attend a lesson in the catechism, at
which the creation of the world is presented to
them in accordance with the teachings of the Bible;
and at 11 a.m. they attend a lesson in natural
science, at which they are taught the theory of
evolution. Yet the two doctrines are in complete
contradiction. As a child, I suffered from this
contradiction, and ran my head against a wall.
Often I complained to one or another of my
teachers against what I had been taught an hour
before-- and I remember that I drove them to
despair. Christian religion tries to get out of it by
explaining that one must attach a symbolic value to
the images of Holy Writ.
What can we do to help ensure numerous similar successes for the cause
of atheism?
Hitler opposed Christianity
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/47c284defb4765dd?
Hitler's courageous embrace of an alternative lifestyle
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/9024224bd3d87aec?
.
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| User: "Boikat" |
|
| Title: Re: Hitler encounters the T0E: A Victory for Atheism |
10 Jun 2005 08:08:47 AM |
|
|
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1118403178.860854.170600@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp. On 69, from the entry for 24
October 1941:
Religion is in perpetual conflict with the spirit of
free research. The Church's opposition to science
was sometimes so violent that it struck off sparks.
The Church, with a clear awareness of her
interests, has made a strategic retreat, with the
result that science has lost some of its
aggressiveness. The present system of teaching in
schools permits the following absurdity: at 10 a.m.
the pupils attend a lesson in the catechism, at
which the creation of the world is presented to
them in accordance with the teachings of the Bible;
and at 11 a.m. they attend a lesson in natural
science, at which they are taught the theory of
evolution. Yet the two doctrines are in complete
contradiction. As a child, I suffered from this
contradiction, and ran my head against a wall.
Often I complained to one or another of my
teachers against what I had been taught an hour
before-- and I remember that I drove them to
despair. Christian religion tries to get out of it by
explaining that one must attach a symbolic value to
the images of Holy Writ.
What can we do to help ensure numerous similar successes for the cause
of atheism?
Hitler opposed Christianity
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/47c284defb4765dd?
Hitler's courageous embrace of an alternative lifestyle
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/9024224bd3d87aec?
Sooooo, it boils down to "Guilt by association" and an argument from adverse
consequences?
And just why do you ignore his pro-religion statements? Are you coing to
claim he used those pro religion statements to sucker the masses? Why not
also claim he used "pro-evolution" statements to sucker the non-religious
masses?
Thanks for playing.
Boikat
--
<42><
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler encounters the T0E: A Victory for Atheism |
11 Jun 2005 11:34:31 AM |
|
|
Boikat wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-1118403178.860854.170600@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Hitler, Adolf, during meal times to his innermost circle plus the
occasional reliable guest, e.g. Himmler, as prepared by Hitler's
secretary Martin Bormann. 1953. _Hitler's Secret Conversations:
1941-1944_, translated by Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, with an
introductory essay "The Mind of Adolf Hitler" by H.R. Trevor-Roper (NY:
Farrar, Straus and Young), 597pp. On 69, from the entry for 24
October 1941:
Religion is in perpetual conflict with the spirit of
free research. The Church's opposition to science
was sometimes so violent that it struck off sparks.
The Church, with a clear awareness of her
interests, has made a strategic retreat, with the
result that science has lost some of its
aggressiveness. The present system of teaching in
schools permits the following absurdity: at 10 a.m.
the pupils attend a lesson in the catechism, at
which the creation of the world is presented to
them in accordance with the teachings of the Bible;
and at 11 a.m. they attend a lesson in natural
science, at which they are taught the theory of
evolution. Yet the two doctrines are in complete
contradiction. As a child, I suffered from this
contradiction, and ran my head against a wall.
Often I complained to one or another of my
teachers against what I had been taught an hour
before-- and I remember that I drove them to
despair. Christian religion tries to get out of it by
explaining that one must attach a symbolic value to
the images of Holy Writ.
What can we do to help ensure numerous similar successes for the cause
of atheism?
Hitler opposed Christianity
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/47c284defb4765dd?
Hitler's courageous embrace of an alternative lifestyle
http://groups.google.co.in/group/talk.origins/msg/9024224bd3d87aec?
Sooooo, it boils down to "Guilt by association" and an argument from adverse
consequences?
Guilt of what?
Association of what and what (or who and who)?
What "adverse consequences" are you referring to?
And just why do you ignore his pro-religion statements?
Dunno. Perhaps I'll present some Hitler "pro-religion statements"
showing that Hitler was making National Socialism into a secular
religion, a secular religion to substitute for Catholic and Protestant
Christianity.
Are you coing to
claim he used those pro religion statements to sucker the masses?
Hitler intended that his secular religion "sucker the masses."
Why not
also claim he used "pro-evolution" statements to sucker the non-religious
masses?
Maybe I will.
1940 Nazi film "All Life is Struggle" embraced Darwinian natural
selection
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407042043.1c2ccf1f%40posting.google.com
excerpts from a 1942 Nazi biology textbook for the middle school
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/textbk01.htm
1942 Heydrich: "The Jews... no doubt a large part of them will be
eliminated by natural diminution. The survivors, the hardiest among
them, must be given an appropriate treatment, because they represent a
natural selection...."
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407032023.243f5883%40posting.google.com
Thanks for playing.
No problem.
Above is an account of Hitler's encounter with the T0E. What can we do
to help ensure numerous similar successes for the cause of atheism?
.
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| User: "Jim Lovejoy" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler encounters the T0E: A Victory for Atheism |
20 Jun 2005 01:36:02 AM |
|
|
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in
news:dford3-1118507671.339045.37750@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
snip<
Above is an account of Hitler's encounter with the T0E. What can we
do to help ensure numerous similar successes for the cause of atheism?
You can keep posting.
.
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Chez Watt! (was Re: Hitler encounters the T0E: A Victory for Atheism) |
20 Jun 2005 10:15:08 AM |
|
|
Above is an account of Hitler's encounter with the T0E. What can we
do to help ensure numerous similar successes for the cause of atheism?
You can keep posting.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
.
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| User: "Boikat" |
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| Title: Re: Hitler encounters the T0E: A Victory for Atheism |
11 Jun 2005 12:51:12 PM | | | | | | | | |
