| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"david ford" |
| Date: |
25 Mar 2005 09:19:13 PM |
| Object: |
Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
The affidavit extracts below demonstrate the falsity of the old media's
erroneous allegation that 'no one is home' in Terri Schindler Schiavo.
Also, Terri can anticipate and feel pain.
A U.S. judiciary run amok and a shameless American Criminal Liberties
Union are intent on murdering via starvation an innocent/ guiltless and
defenseless woman.
Decency demands that this unjustified, court-imposed death sentence on
Terri Schindler Schiavo be stopped.
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and
ACLU run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
From
http://www.hospicepatients.org/terri-schindler-schiavo-docs-links-page.html
from the PDF "Affidavit of William Cheshire, Jr., MD 03-23-05":
AFFIDAVIT
STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF DUVALL
Before me this day personally appeared William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D.,
who, being duly sworn, deposes and says:
I, William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D., have personal knowledge of the
facts stated in this declaration and, if called as a witness, I could
and would testify competently thereto under oath. I declare as follows:
I am a neurologist practicing in the State of Florida and am certified
by the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology. In regard to my
educational background, I received an A.B. in biochemical sciences from
Princeton University, an M.A. in bioethics from Trinity International
University, and an M.D. from West Virginia University. I completed an
internship in internal medicine at West Virginia University, a residency
in neurology and a pain fellowship at the University of North Carolina.
I am also an appointed volunteer with the Florida Statewide Adult
Protective Services team, in which capacity I was called on March 1,
2005, to provide an independent and objective medical review of
allegations of possible abuse, neglect, or exploitation of Ms. Theresa
Marie Schiavo.
Although no one from the Department of Children and Families has
inquired about my personal views about treatment decisions in cases of
persistent vegetative state (PVS), I would like to disclose that I came
into this case with the belief that it can be ethically permissible to
discontinue artificially provided nutrition and hydration for patients
in a persistent vegetative state. Having now reviewed the relevant
facts, having met and observed Ms. Schiavo in person, and having
reflected deeply on the moral and ethical issues, I would like to
explain why I change my mind in regard to this particular case.
.....
Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS. These include:
1. Her behavior is frequently context-specific. For example, her
facial expression brightens and she smiles in response to the voice of
familiar persons such as her parents or her nurse. Her agitation
subsides and her facial demeanor softens when quiet music is played.
When jubilant piano music is played, her face brightens, she lifts her
eyebrows, smiles, and even laughs. Her lateral gaze toward the tape
player is sustained for many minutes. Several times I witnessed Terri
briefly, albeit inconsistently, laugh in response to a humorous comment
someone in the room had made. I did not see her laugh in the absence of
someone else's laughter.
2. Although she does not seem to track or follow visual objects
consistently or for long periods of time, she does fixate her gaze on
colorful objects or human faces for some 15 seconds at a time and
occasionally follows with her eyes at least briefly as these objects
move from side to side. When I first walked into her room, she
immediately turned her head toward me and looked directly at my face.
There was a lot of curiosity or expectation in her expression, and she
maintained eye contact for about half a minute. Later, when she again
looked at me, she brought her lips together as if to pronounce the
letter "O," and although for a moment it appeared that she might be
making an intentional effort to speak, her face then fell blank, and no
words came out.
3. Although I did not hear Terri utter distinct words, she demonstrates
emotional expressivity by her use of a single syllable of vocalizations
such as "ah," making cooing sounds, or by expressing guttural sounds of
annoyance or moaning appropriate to the context of the situation. The
context-specific range and the variability of her vocalizations suggests
at least a reasonable probability of the processing of emotional thought
within her brain. There have been reports of Terri rarely using actual
words specific to her situational context. The July 25, 2003 affidavit
of the speech pathologist Sarah Green Mole, MS, on page 6, reads, "The
records of Mediplex reflect the fact that she has said 'stop' in
apparent response to a medical procedure being done to her." The Adult
Protective Services team has been unable to retrieve those original
medical records in this instance.
4. Although Terri has not consistently followed commands, there
appeared to be some notable exceptions. In the taped examination by Dr.
Hammesfahr from 2002, when asked to close her eyes she began to blink
repeatedly. Although it was unclear whether she squeezed her grip when
asked, she did appear to raise her right leg four times in succession
each time she was asked to do so. Rehabilitation notes from 1991
indicated that she tracked inconsistently, and although she did not
develop a yes/no communication system, did follow some commands
inconsistently and demonstrated good eye contact to family members.
5. There is a remarkable moment in the videotape of the September 3,
2002 examination by Dr. Hammesfahr that seemed to go unnoticed at the
time. At 2:44 p.m., Dr. Hammesfahr had just turned Terri onto her right
side to examine her back with a painful sharp stimulus (a sharp piece of
wood), to which Terri had responded with signs of discomfort. Well
after he ceased applying the stimulus and had returned Terri to a
comfortable position, he says to her parents, "So, we're going to have
to roll her over...." Immediately Terri cries. She vocalizes a crying
sound, "Ugh, ha, ha, ha," presses her eyebrows together, and sadly
grimaces. It is important to note that, at that moment, no one is
touching Terri or causing actual pain. Rather, she appears to
comprehend the meaning of Dr. Hammesfahr's comment and she signals her
_anticipation_ of pain. This response suggests some degree of language
processing and interpretation at the level of the cerebral cortex. It
also suggests that she may be aware of pain beyond what could be
explained by simple reflex withdrawal.
6. According to the definition of PVS published by the American Academy
of Neurology, "persistent vegetative state patients do not have the
capacity to experience pain or suffering. Pain and suffering are
attributes of consciousness requiring cerebral cortical functioning, and
patients who are permanently and completely unconscious cannot
experience these symptoms."^6 And yet, in my review of Terri's medical
records, pain issues keep surfacing. The nurses at Woodside Hospice
told us that she often has pain with menstrual cramps. Menstrual flow
is associated with agitation, repeated or sustained moaning, facial
grimacing, limb posturing, and facial flushing, all of which subside
once she is given ibuprofen. Some of the records document moaning,
crying, and other painful behavior in the setting of urinary tract
infections.
.....
7. To enter the room of Terri Schiavo is nothing like entering the room
of a patient who is comatose or brain-dead or in some neurological sense
no longer there. Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90
minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness,
or volitional behavior, yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the
presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of
some things around her.
As I looked at Terri, and she gazed directly back at me, I asked myself
whether, if I were her attending physician, I could in good conscience
withdraw nutrition and hydration. No, I could not. I could not
withdraw life support if I were asked. I could not withhold
life-sustaining nutrition and hydration from this beautiful lady whose
face brightens in the presence of others.
The neurologic signs are in many ways ambiguous. There is no guarantee
that more sophisticated testing would definitively resolve that
ambiguity to everyone's satisfaction. There would be value, I think, in
obtaining a functional MRI scan if that is possible.
This situation differs fundamentally from end-of-life scenarios where it
is appropriate to withdraw life-sustaining medical interventions that no
longer benefit or are burdensome to patients in the terminal stages of
illness. Terri's feeding tube is not a burden to her. It is not
painful, is not infected, is not eroding her stomach lining or causing
any medical complications. But for the decision to withdraw her feeding
tube, Terri cannot be considered medically terminal. But for the
withdrawal of food and water, she would not die [well, she would not die
now-- everybody dies eventually, sometimes sooner rather than later. We
never know when we will go to meet our Maker. -df].
In summary, Terri [Schindler] Schiavo demonstrates behaviors in a
variety of cognitive domains that call into question the previous
neurologic diagnosis of persistent vegetative state. Specifically, she
has demonstrated behaviors that are context-specific, sustained, and
indicative of a cerebral cortical processing that, upon careful
neurologic consideration, would not be expected in a persistent
vegetative state.
Based on this evidence, I believe that, within a reasonable degree of
medical certainty, there is a greater likelihood that Terri is in a
minimally conscious state than a persistent vegetative state. This
distinction makes an enormous difference in making ethical decisions on
Terri's behalf. If Terri is sufficiently aware of her surroundings that
she can feel pleasure and suffer, if she is capable of understanding to
some degree how she is being treated, then in my judgment it would be
wrong to bring about her death by withdrawing food and water.
At the time of this writing, Terri Schiavo, as the result of the
decisions based on what I have argued to be a faulty diagnosis of
persistent vegetative state, has been without food or water for 5 days.
She is thus at risk of death or serious injury unless the provision of
food and water can be restored. Terri Schiavo lacks the capacity to
consent to emergency protective services and must trust others to act on
her behalf. If she were to be transferred to another facility, it would
be medically necessary first to initiate hydration and ensure that her
serum electrolytes are within normal values.
How medicine and society choose to think about Terri [Schindler] Schiavo
will influence what kind of people we will be as we evaluate and respond
to the needs of the most vulnerable people among us. When serious
doubts exist as to whether a cognitively impaired person is or is not
consciously aware, even if these doubts cannot be conclusively resolved,
it is better to err on the side of protecting vulnerable life.
Respectfully submitted,
William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D., M.A., F.A.A.N.
[signature]
Sworn to (or affirmed) and subscribed before me this 23[rd] day of
March, 2005, by William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D.
[notary stamp and signature]
======================================================================
articles: livelier ones are by Thomas Sowell and William Kristol. Eric
Cohen's is very thoughtful.
http://www.townhall.com
Cal Thomas: Schiavo case matters in symbol and substance
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adfseF68nkocU1%40individual.net
Justifications for taking of human life?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aj33dF67kgcuU2%40individual.net
any atheists against Terri Schindler Schiavo's being starved to death?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adrlvF69l60hU1%40individual.net
1997 Wesley Smith on Germany's slippery slope slide from devaluing some
human life to a little euthanasia/ killing to mass killings
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3abe1cF6ac7t2U1%40individual.net
ACLU: Legal Terrorists
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/11/27/195402.shtml
Terri Schindler Schiavo Case
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/10/16/223430.shtml
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43463
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and
ACLU run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
.
|
|
| User: "Ken Shackleton" |
|
| Title: Re: who said, and do you agree with, this? |
23 Sep 2005 03:19:14 PM |
|
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david ford wrote:
Mitchell Coffey wrote:
On 22 Sep 2005 "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
AC wrote:
[snip]
Do you believe, for instance,
that Martin Luther's complaints against Rome were all wrong because he was a
rabid anti-Semite?
No.
So you approve of some of the beliefs of a rabid anti-Semite.
Which "beliefs" do you refer to?
To the best of your knowledge, do you "approve of some of the beliefs
of a rabid anti-Semite," specifically, Hitler?
If so, which "beliefs"?
2-pronged role of Darwinian thought in Holocaust's arrival
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1125723152.824465.111490%40g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Darwinian evolution describes how biological systems operate. If Hitler
and others chose to use that to justify their actions; it has no
bearing on the validity of the theory to describe the function of
biological systems. If you are implying its application for evil ends
invalidates the theory in some fashion, then you would have to agree
that evil done in the name of religion invalidates the religion itself.
We both know that this is a foolish position, yet I see Hitler's
actions being proposed frequently as an invalidation of evolution, when
in fact, he cited religion far more frequently as his
justification.....foolish.
I agree with an observation by those adherents of atheism Hitler and
Dawkins regarding conflicting religions.
1941 Hitler & 2003 Dawkins observation re: conflicting religions
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1118932846.333778.56450%40g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Do you
agree with Luther that Jews should be murdered, their house and
temples burnt down?
No.
What about traditional Catholic teachings
condemning Jews as Deicides?
What exactly do these "traditional Catholic teachings" say?
Do you think there was or is a non-material God that came to earth in a
human form that could be killed?
.
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| User: "david ford" |
|
| Title: the courts on the secular religion of secular humanism |
23 Sep 2005 09:15:47 PM |
|
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From: (maff)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.agnosticism,talk.origins,talk.atheism
Subject: Re: Richard Dawkins
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:58:31 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <18510aff.0410130004.59c5f913@posting.google.com>
[snip]
It isn't up to any individual, Christian fascist/ fundamentalist
historian, David Ford. It's up to the courts.
[snip]
So why don't you appear before the courts, Christian fascist/
fundamentalist historian, David Ford so that it can be explained to
you why Christian fascism/ fundamentalism is doomed.
Edwards v. Aguillard: U.S. Supreme Court Decision
http://talkorigins.org/faqs/edwards-v-aguillard.html
Read the U.S. Supreme Court decision dealing with creationism in
public school science classrooms. The majority opinions and the
dissenting opinion by Justice Antonin Scalia are provided along with
the amicus curiae brief filed by 72 Nobel Prize winning scientists
[snip]
Do you agree with the court decisions referenced below?
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Morris, Barbara M. 1979. _Change Agents in the Schools_ (Ellicott
City, Maryland: The Barbara M. Morris Report), 281pp. On 19-20, the
section "Humanism as a Religion":
That Humanism is a religion has been recognized in the courts as well
as by Humanists. The reference most often cited is found in the case
of Torcaso v. Watkins (367 U.S. Reports p. 495 footnote 11):
"Among religions in this country which do not
teach what would generally be considered a
belief in the existence of God are Buddhism,
Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism
and others. See Washington Ethical Society v.
District of Columbia, 101 U.S. App. D.C. 371,
249 F 2d 127...."
In the Washington Ethical Society case, the Society wanted the building
in which it held meetings, to qualify for tax exemption, and contended
that a belief in a Supreme Being is not essential to qualify for tax
exemption given to a church or religious corporation or religious
society. The court held that the petitioner qualified as a religious
corporation or society.
In the March, 1978 _Educational Leadership_, James K. Uphoff^4 cited a
"narrow" definition of religion which centers around belief in and
worship of a deity. He also gave a "broad" definition of religion
which:
"....envisions religion as any faith or set of
values to which an individual or group gives
ultimate loyalty.... Ethical Culture,
secularism, humanism, scientism.... illustrate
this concept of religion."
The author went on to admit that the broad definition:
"....applies to all of us.... we educators have
placed our _faith_ in the critical thinking process
as a means of improving our world, [and] we
may have adopted it as a religious value..."
He continued:
"My own _faith_ in the value of and need for
rationality makes me become a _missionary_
and undertake the task with great zeal."
Humanists in the schools are a dedicated lot who do indeed display as
much, if not more zeal in the promotion of Humanism than do Christian
missionaries in promoting Christianity. Educator Harold C. Lyon^5
described a course he gave in "affective education" which he claimed
resulted in his students functioning as missionaries. He said:
"The intangible product of the course is fifteen
humanistically enlightened individuals who
are now either teaching their own
humanistically oriented classes or working as
missionaries to influence others to deal with
feelings in the classroom and in curriculum
development."
Humanists are just as protective of their religion as are Christians,
if not more so. In the Winter, 1970 issue of _Religious Humanism_6 the
author of an article in another magazine was chastised for calling
Humanism a "false religion". Exception was taken to the charge with
the exhortation that "Faithful humanists are challenged by these
assaults to speak and write in defense of the humanist faith."
Notes
4. Uphoff, James K.; "Values: What Impact on Education for Judgement
Making". In EDUCATIONAL LEADERSHIP, March, 1978, p. 439.
5. Lyon, Harold C., Jr.; LEARNING TO FEEL-- FEELING TO LEARN, Charles
E. Merrill Publishing Co., Columbus, Ohio, 1971, p. 184.
6. Kurtz, Paul; THE HUMANIST ALTERNATIVE, Prometheus Books, Buffalo,
N.Y., 1973, p. 177. [I don't see it yet, though the subject matter on
177 is pertinent.]
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Klinghoffer's "Worshipers At The Secular Altar"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0410120549.37264dde%40posting.google.com
1980 John Durant: the secular myths of evolution have had "a damaging
effect on scientific research", leading to "distortion, to needless
controversy, and to the gross misuse of science"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406081707.2b79a9e0%40posting.google.com
.
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| User: "John M Price PhD" |
|
| Title: Re: the courts on the secular religion of secular humanism |
24 Sep 2005 04:37:24 PM |
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In article <dford3-1127528146.999596.314660@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> from sci.skeptic david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
http://www.samharris.org
(c) 2004. Copyright, John M. Price, PhD. All Rights Reserved.
Contents may not be republished in any form or medium without prior
written consent of the author with the express and only exception of
followup postings limited to and within usenet.
--
John M. Price, PhD
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
Let's just say that where a change was required, I adjusted. In every
relationship that exists, people have to seek a way to survive. If you
really care about the person, you do what's necessary, or that's the
end. For the first time, I found that I really could change, and the
qualities I most admired in myself I gave up. I stopped being loud and
bossy ... Oh, all right. I was still loud and bossy, but only behind
his back."
-- Kate Hepburn, on Tracy and Hepburn
.
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| User: "david ford" |
|
| Title: Re: the courts on the secular religion of secular humanism |
25 Sep 2005 10:41:49 PM |
|
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John M Price PhD wrote:
In article <dford3-1127528146.999596.314660@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> from sci.skeptic david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
http://www.samharris.org
How about an alternate title: _The End of Faith in Secularism_
It has a nice ring to it.
"Huston Smith, famed scholar on world religions, focuses anew on his
own faith of Christianity"
http://www2.sbsun.com/news/ci_3056356
Smith believes the religious worldview is gaining
momentum. "Secularism is on the defensive. It's
being moved to the periphery," he said. "The center
is empty and the situation is ripe for the spirit to
move to that center." He predicts that someday
people will "look back on secularism as an episode
in human history."
godlessness in trouble: science, 'frauds' trigger decline in atheism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-38r8v3F5qkkv1U1%40individual.net
the courts on the secular religion of secular humanism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1127528146.999596.314660%40g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Klinghoffer's "Worshipers At The Secular Altar"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0410120549.37264dde%40posting.google.com
Darwin only talks to and through his prophets.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-37f8trF5cdutnU1%40individual.net
1980 John Durant: the secular myths of evolution have had "a damaging
effect on scientific research", leading to "distortion, to needless
controversy, and to the gross misuse of science"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406081707.2b79a9e0%40posting.google.com
.
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| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: the courts on the secular religion of secular humanism |
24 Sep 2005 03:21:30 AM |
|
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david ford wrote:
[...]
You can always say that to the courts, Christian fascist degenerate.
.
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| User: "david ford" |
|
| Title: Re: who said, and do you agree with, this? |
23 Sep 2005 10:03:38 PM |
|
|
Ken Shackleton wrote:
david ford wrote:
Mitchell Coffey wrote:
On 22 Sep 2005 "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
AC wrote:
[snip]
Do you believe, for instance,
that Martin Luther's complaints against Rome were all
wrong because he was a rabid anti-Semite?
No.
So you approve of some of the beliefs of a rabid anti-Semite.
Which "beliefs" do you refer to?
To the best of your knowledge, do you "approve of some of the beliefs
of a rabid anti-Semite," specifically, Hitler?
If so, which "beliefs"?
2-pronged role of Darwinian thought in Holocaust's arrival
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1125723152.824465.111490%40g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Darwinian evolution describes how biological systems operate.
Is it the case that "Darwinian evolution describes how" human
"biological systems operate"?
If Hitler
and others chose to use that to justify their actions; it has no
bearing on the validity of the theory to describe the function of
biological systems.
Do you see any claims in this item you think have "validity"?:
excerpts from a 1942 Nazi biology textbook for the middle school
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/textbk01.htm
If you are implying its application for evil ends
invalidates the theory in some fashion, then you would have to agree
that evil done in the name of religion invalidates the religion itself.
"evil ends... evil done in the name of religion"
Do you agree with this Nordau?:
Nordau, Max. 1922. _Morals and the Evolution of Man_ [trans. of
_Biologie und Ethik_] (London), 73. Cited in Weikart, Richard. 2004.
_From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in
Germany_ (USA: Palgrave Macmillan), 312pp., 30. About Weikart's
book:
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0407030531.19253d93%40posting.google.com
Good and bad.... derive not only their existence but their
measure and their significance from the views of the
community. They are therefore not absolute but variable;
they are not an immutable standard amid the ever-changing
conditions of humanity, a rule by which the value of the
actions and aims of mortals are indisputably determined, but
are subject to the laws of evolution in society and therefore
in a constant state of flux. At different times and in different
places they present the most varied aspects. What is virtue
here and now may have been vice formerly and at another
spot, and _vice versa_.
"then you would have to agree that evil done in the name of religion
invalidates the religion itself."
Do you think there is such a thing as a 'secular religion'?
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Morris, Barbara M. 1979. _Change Agents in the Schools_ (Ellicott
City, Maryland: The Barbara M. Morris Report), 281pp. On 19-20, the
section "Humanism as a Religion":
That Humanism is a religion has been recognized in the courts as well
as by Humanists. The reference most often cited is found in the case
of Torcaso v. Watkins (367 U.S. Reports p. 495 footnote 11):
"Among religions in this country which do not
teach what would generally be considered a
belief in the existence of God are Buddhism,
Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism
and others. See Washington Ethical Society v.
District of Columbia, 101 U.S. App. D.C. 371,
249 F 2d 127...."
In the Washington Ethical Society case, the Society wanted the building
in which it held meetings, to qualify for tax exemption, and contended
that a belief in a Supreme Being is not essential to qualify for tax
exemption given to a church or religious corporation or religious
society. The court held that the petitioner qualified as a religious
corporation or society.
In the March, 1978 _Educational Leadership_, James K. Uphoff^4 cited a
"narrow" definition of religion which centers around belief in and
worship of a deity. He also gave a "broad" definition of religion
which:
"....envisions religion as any faith or set of
values to which an individual or group gives
ultimate loyalty.... Ethical Culture,
secularism, humanism, scientism.... illustrate
this concept of religion."
The author went on to admit that the broad definition:
"....applies to all of us.... we educators have
placed our _faith_ in the critical thinking process
as a means of improving our world, [and] we
may have adopted it as a religious value..."
He continued:
"My own _faith_ in the value of and need for
rationality makes me become a _missionary_
and undertake the task with great zeal."
Humanists in the schools are a dedicated lot who do indeed display as
much, if not more zeal in the promotion of Humanism than do Christian
missionaries in promoting Christianity. Educator Harold C. Lyon^5
described a course he gave in "affective education" which he claimed
resulted in his students functioning as missionaries. He said:
"The intangible product of the course is fifteen
humanistically enlightened individuals who
are now either teaching their own
humanistically oriented classes or working as
missionaries to influence others to deal with
feelings in the classroom and in curriculum
development."
Humanists are just as protective of their religion as are Christians,
if not more so. In the Winter, 1970 issue of _Religious Humanism_6 the
author of an article in another magazine was chastised for calling
Humanism a "false religion". Exception was taken to the charge with
the exhortation that "Faithful humanists are challenged by these
assaults to speak and write in defense of the humanist faith."
Notes
4. Uphoff, James K.; "Values: What Impact on Education for Judgement
Making". In EDUCATIONAL LEADERSHIP, March, 1978, p. 439.
5. Lyon, Harold C., Jr.; LEARNING TO FEEL-- FEELING TO LEARN, Charles
E. Merrill Publishing Co., Columbus, Ohio, 1971, p. 184.
6. Kurtz, Paul; THE HUMANIST ALTERNATIVE, Prometheus Books, Buffalo,
N.Y., 1973, p. 177. [I don't see it yet, though the subject matter on
177 is pertinent.]
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Klinghoffer's "Worshipers At The Secular Altar"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0410120549.37264dde%40posting.google.com
1980 John Durant: the secular myths of evolution have had "a damaging
effect on scientific research", leading to "distortion, to needless
controversy, and to the gross misuse of science"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406081707.2b79a9e0%40posting.google.com
We both know that this is a foolish position, yet I see Hitler's
actions being proposed frequently as an invalidation of evolution, when
in fact, he cited religion far more frequently as his
justification.....foolish.
Meaning of "evolution"?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-386md9F5lsv5cU1%40individual.net
"he cited religion far more frequently as his justification" for what?
Which religion(s)?
Do you grant that Hitler had and was developing a secular religion, and
wanted that secular religion to supplant Catholic and Protestant
Christianity?
Hitler's secular religion
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1120837574.592972.268980%40g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Hitler opposed Christianity
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1117657689.616680.167840%40g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Hitler encounters the T0E as a child: A Victory for Atheism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1118403178.860854.170600%40g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Stalin encounters the T0E in seminary: A Victory for Atheism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1118511187.489582.241590%40g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
1941 Hitler & 2003 Dawkins observation re: conflicting religions
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1118932846.333778.56450%40g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
1943 Goebbels & Hitler agree on "the insanity of the Christian doctrine
of redemption"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1120260213.363834.164990%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
I agree with an observation by those adherents of atheism Hitler and
Dawkins regarding conflicting religions.
1941 Hitler & 2003 Dawkins observation re: conflicting religions
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1118932846.333778.56450%40g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Do you
agree with Luther that Jews should be murdered, their house and
temples burnt down?
No.
What about traditional Catholic teachings
condemning Jews as Deicides?
What exactly do these "traditional Catholic teachings" say?
Do you think there was or is a non-material God that came to earth in a
human form that could be killed?
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: who said, and do you agree with, this? |
11 Oct 2005 11:18:07 AM |
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Ken Shackleton wrote:
david ford wrote:
Mitchell Coffey wrote:
On 22 Sep 2005 "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
AC wrote:
[snip]
Do you believe, for instance,
that Martin Luther's complaints against Rome were all wrong because he was a
rabid anti-Semite?
No.
So you approve of some of the beliefs of a rabid anti-Semite.
Which "beliefs" do you refer to?
To the best of your knowledge, do you "approve of some of the beliefs
of a rabid anti-Semite," specifically, Hitler?
If so, which "beliefs"?
2-pronged role of Darwinian thought in Holocaust's arrival
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1125723152.824465.111490%40g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Darwinian evolution describes how biological systems operate.
What is the Darwinian description of "how biological systems operate"?
blindwatchmaking hypothesis needed to make sense of biology?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=7nibqu%24o0l%241%40pale-rider.INS.CWRU.Edu
control-f/ "find" for: without it
replies to Larry Moran posts
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-39lhabF61ut8sU1%40individual.net
If Hitler
and others chose to use that to justify their actions; it has no
bearing on the validity of the theory to describe the function of
biological systems.
Do you agree with this 1922 Max Nordau?:
Good and bad.... are subject to the laws of
evolution in society and therefore in a constant
state of flux....
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0411271314.4b84581e%40posting.google.com
If you are implying its application for evil ends
invalidates the theory in some fashion, then you would have to agree
that evil done in the name of religion invalidates the religion itself.
What are 5 actions you consider evil/ wrong/ bad/
immoral?
Upon what basis/ grounds do you consider those 5 actions
evil/ wrong/ bad/ immoral?
Do you think infanticide is evil/ wrong?
Do you think bestiality is evil/ wrong?
1979 Schaeffer & Koop on the a-moral implications of atheism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504061225.4c675814%40posting.google.com
We both know that this is a foolish position, yet I see Hitler's
actions being proposed frequently as an invalidation of evolution, when
in fact, he cited religion far more frequently as his
justification.....foolish.
Meaning of "evolution"?
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-386md9F5lsv5cU1%40individual.net
Do you think there can be such a thing as a 'secular religion'?
the courts on the secular religion of secular humanism
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1127528146.999596.314660%40g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
I agree with an observation by those adherents of atheism Hitler and
Dawkins regarding conflicting religions.
1941 Hitler & 2003 Dawkins observation re: conflicting religions
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1118932846.333778.56450%40g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Do you
agree with Luther that Jews should be murdered, their house and
temples burnt down?
No.
What about traditional Catholic teachings
condemning Jews as Deicides?
What exactly do these "traditional Catholic teachings" say?
Do you think there was or is a non-material God that came to earth in a
human form that could be killed?
.
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| User: "Mitchell Coffey" |
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| Title: Re: who said, and do you agree with, this? |
23 Sep 2005 12:42:42 AM |
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On 22 Sep 2005 09:50:46 -0700, wrote:
On a page, a paragraph and the bulk of a second paragraph:
Any crossing of two beings not at exactly the same level
produces a medium between the level of the two parents. This
means: the offspring will probably stand higher than the
racially lower parent, but not as high as the higher one.
Consequently, it will later succumb in the struggle against the
higher level. Such mating is contrary to the will of Nature for a
higher breeding of all life. The precondition for this does not
lie in associating superior and inferior, but in the total victory
of
the former. The stronger must dominate and not blend with the
weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born
weakling can view this as cruel, but he after all is only a weak
and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable
higher development of organic living beings would be
unthinkable.
....Nature looks on calmly, with satisfaction, in fact. In the
struggle for daily bread all those who are weak and sickly or
less determined succumb, while the struggle of the males for the
female grants the right or opportunity to propagate only to the
healthiest. And struggle is always a means for improving a
species' health and power of resistance and, therefore, a cause
of its higher development.
[snip]
Exactly: Hitler believed in Intelligent Design. In Mein Kampf he goes
on with this sort of anti-Darwinian, teological crap; presumable you
snipped the next paragraph because it was even more explicit about
what "nature" wanted. He also agrees with you about the sexual
excesses of German youth in the '20s.
Mitchell Coffey
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: who said, and do you agree with, this? |
23 Sep 2005 03:13:38 PM |
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Mitchell Coffey wrote:
On 22 Sep 2005 09:50:46 -0700, wrote:
On a page, a paragraph and the bulk of a second paragraph:
Any crossing of two beings not at exactly the same level
produces a medium between the level of the two parents. This
means: the offspring will probably stand higher than the
racially lower parent, but not as high as the higher one.
Consequently, it will later succumb in the struggle against the
higher level. Such mating is contrary to the will of Nature for a
higher breeding of all life. The precondition for this does not
lie in associating superior and inferior, but in the total victory
of
the former. The stronger must dominate and not blend with the
weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born
weakling can view this as cruel, but he after all is only a weak
and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable
higher development of organic living beings would be
unthinkable.
....Nature looks on calmly, with satisfaction, in fact. In the
struggle for daily bread all those who are weak and sickly or
less determined succumb, while the struggle of the males for the
female grants the right or opportunity to propagate only to the
healthiest. And struggle is always a means for improving a
species' health and power of resistance and, therefore, a cause
of its higher development.
[snip]
Exactly: Hitler believed in Intelligent Design.
Exactly which words of Hitler lead you to think "Hitler believed in
Intelligent Design"?
In Mein Kampf he goes
on with this sort of anti-Darwinian, teological crap; presumable you
snipped the next paragraph because it was even more explicit about
what "nature" wanted.
"the next paragraph... was even more explicit about what 'nature'
wanted"
Sounds intriguing.
What exactly is it that [Hitler]"Nature" (note the capital 'N') wanted?
"In Mein Kampf he goes on with this sort of anti-Darwinian... crap"
Do you agree with this Dawkins?:
Dawkins, Richard. 1989. _The Selfish Gene_ (NY: Oxford University
Press), 352pp. On 2:
....I think 'nature red in tooth and claw' sums up our modern
understanding of natural selection admirably.
"In Mein Kampf he goes on with this sort of... teological crap"
If someone were to claim that Darwinian natural selection seeks to
climb [Dawkins]"Mount Improbable" and succeeds in doing so in numerous
varying ways, would you consider that claim "teological crap"?
Do you agree with this Oparin?:
Oparin, A. I. 1962. _Life: Its Nature, Origin and
Development_ (New York: Academic Press Inc., Publishers),
translated from the Russian by Ann Synge, 207pp. Three
paragraphs on 12-13:
Thus the universal 'purposiveness' of the organisation of
living beings is an objective and self-evident fact which
cannot be ignored by any thoughtful student of nature. The
rightness or wrongness of the definition of life advanced by
us, and also of many others, depends on what interpretation
one gives to the word 'purposiveness' and what one
believes to be its essential nature and origin.
The idealists see this 'purposiveness' as the fulfilment of
some predetermined plan of a deity or 'universal intellect'.
The materialists, on the other hand, use the expression (for
lack of a better one) as the shortest way of characterising
the direction of the organisation of the whole living system
towards its self-preservation and self-reproduction under
given environmental conditions, as well as to describe the
suitability of the structure of the separate parts of the living
system to the most efficient and harmonious performance
of those vitally necessary functions which the particular
part subserves.
The extremely highly developed adaptation of the structure
of the individual organs to the performance of their
functions and the general 'purposiveness' of the whole
organisation of life is seen to be extremely precise even on
a very superficial acquaintance with higher living things.
As we have already pointed out, it was noticed a long time
ago and found expression in the Aristotelian 'entelechy'. It
had been considered to be essentially mystical and
supernatural until Darwin gave a rational, materialistic
explanation of the way in which this 'purposiveness' arose
in higher organisms by means of natural selection.
Similar statements appear in
_Nature's Purposes: Analyses of Function and Design in
Biology_, edited by Colin Allen, Marc Bekoff, and George
Lauder (Cambridge, Massachusetts: The MIT Press, 1998), 597pp.
Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0262510979/002-5908785-4252004?v=glance
Among the contributors, I recognize the names of Ayala,
Kitcher, Gould, and Vrba.
a t.o. philosopher on 'function' and 'purpose' in biology
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-37c9m5F59n45nU1%40individual.net
He also agrees with you about the sexual
excesses of German youth in the '20s.
Do you think there were "sexual excesses of German youth in the '20s"?
Do you think there were "sexual excesses of German youth in the" 1930s?
Would you consider widespread pregnancies and gonorrhea among Nazi
youth girls evidence of "sexual excesses"?
Would you consider the going-out-of-business of professional
prostitutes because of the high level of unpaid sexual activity by Nazi
youth girls evidence of "sexual excesses of German youth"?
Would you consider widespread homosexual activity among the Hitler
Youth:
"sexual excesses"?
'immoral/ evil/ wrong'?
Switching gears slightly for a moment, in response to a possible claim
that I hate Hitler, I don't hate Hitler, and never have. He did
nothing directly to me. However, I do hate what he did-- I hate his
actions.
And his actions are quite understandable considering what his views
were.
Hitler rejected the existence of the Judeo-Christian God
and became an atheist, and embraced Darwinian thinking.
That Hitler didn't act as if he believed in the existence of the
Judeo-Christian God, and acted as if he accepted Darwinian thought,
shouldn't come as a surprise and isn't 'strange.'
People frequently act in accordance with their beliefs, i.e. ideas that
they've accepted.
(By the same token, people frequently believe in accordance with their
actions: if they're doing X, and their belief prohibits doing X, it's
quite possible that their belief will become altered such that doing X
is now OK, and there now is consistency between their acts and their
beliefs.)
Haeckel and Buchner and a Darwinian a-moral climate; Hitler was a
homosexual
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1118315214.069039.280490%40z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com
My "sexual excesses" questions were based on my recollection of what I
read in
Kater, Michael H. 2004. _Hitler Youth_ (Cambridge, MA: Harvard
University Press), 355pp.
with the gonorrhea question at least in part based on a diary entry
from another book.
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Church resistance to Hitler |
05 Oct 2005 08:25:42 PM |
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Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdot...@hunter.news.rcn.net> in
"Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?" on 6 Jul 2004 in news:
<7iake09k1mah7ufcb9fkq4t385htsoei92@4ax.com>...
On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:05:24 +0000 (UTC), (david
ford) wrote:
Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdot...@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<0gdfe01b6e8bsq40mtlqtevhfg31260m8c@4ax.com>...
On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:28:02 +0000 (UTC), (david ford) wrote:
Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdot...@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<fjcce056p0s9nd0mbsa03csgjqc2gunhna@4ax.com>...
On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:38:18 +0000 (UTC), (david ford) wrote:
Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdot...@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<ch6be0had715obpbfr9kqlt9jrqstbkpjc@4ax.com>...
Are you going to post any evidence that Darwin made some significant
contribution to the Holocaust,
Probably, after a certain book arrives and I've looked at it.
http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/books/b089.htm
[snip]
I take it you've already read whatever this
book may be,
I haven't yet. I did, though, read the text above, and the chapter
"Adolf Hitler: Neo-Darwinism and Genocide" in Koster's book, the
table of contents of which appears at the end of
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406230445.7cff0545%40posting.google.com
Ideas have consequences.
Indeed they do. What was the response of German Lutheran and Catholic
churches to Krystalnacht, compared to their reaction a year latter to
the mass murder of mentally ill and retarded Germans a year later?
I don't know. What?
They didn't lift a finger over Krystalnacht, and the persecution of
Jews in general. They undertook a national dialogue in their churches
on the subject of the mass murder of the "mentally unfit." There was
a great deal of support for the policy, particularly among the
Lutherans, but in the end both churches opposed the program and,
through public opposition, shut it down.
The end of the murder of the "unfit" is to both churches' lasting
credit. But it shows that they could effect decisive opposition to
core Nazi policy as late as 1939 and 1940. Their failure to act on
the persecution of the Jews prior to that appears to be willful.
If we agree that ideas have consequences we should be
consistent about it.
[snip]
[MC]"German Lutheran and Catholic churches.... didn't lift a finger
over Krystalnacht, and the persecution of Jews in general."
Nazi mob beat up Lutheran Pastor Julius von Jan for denouncing
Kristallnacht
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128365980.250455.304140%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
From
http://www.camlaw.rutgers.edu/publications/law-religion/nuremberg/nurinst1.htm
from the closing pages of the Part IV PDF file. The unpolished English
version below was translated from the German version, also in the PDF.
I inserted several paragraph breaks.
25 October 1945
_MEMORANDUM_
Subject: Relationship of the German Churches to Hitler.
To: General Donovan.
1.) _Introductory Note:_
Besides small sects there were and there are only two Christian
Churches of importance in Germany, the Protestant and the Catholic
church. The Catholic Church was politically represented by the
Center-Party (Zentrumspartei), the Bavarian People's Party (Bayerische
Volkspartei) and the Christian Trade-Unions (Christliche
Gewerkschaften). Since these three groups stood in opposition to
Hitler from the beginning, the Catholic Church before 1933 found itself
in quite an obvious emnity towards the Nazis. As for the Protestant
church, this was not true in the extent it was in the Catholic church.
Because there are no politics in the Protestant church. Therefore it
may be said that before 1933 there was no relationship, either of a
friendly or of an enemy nature, between Hitler on one hand and the two
churches on the other hand.
2.) _Relationship of the Catholic Church with Hitler since 1933_:
Immediately after Hitler had seized the power, National Socialism
showed itself as an ideology plainly opposed to Christianism. Only a
minority among the princes of the Catholic Church like for example
Bishop Berning from Osnabruck and later Cardinal Innitzer from Vienna
tried to show a friendly attitude towards Hitler. The majority of the
princes of the Catholic Church left no doubt in their declarations and
pastoral letters that there was no bridge between Naziism and the
Catholic Church. As the years went by, the Attitude of the Catholic
Church became ever clearer. The rejection of Hitler became more and
more obvious.
Because of the hierarchic organizations of the Catholic Church, the
denunciation of Hitler was propagated by the majority of the Catholic
clergy in the land. The result of this was that the enmity towards
Hitler was promulgated not only by the high clerics, but was also
carried to the masses by the low clerics. This decisive credit for
this attitude ought to be given to Cardinal von Faulhaber from Munich
and whose personal sermons branded Naziism as the enemy of Christendom.
Both princes of the church did not shun the gravest danger but managed
to voice their opposition to Hitler in such a way so clever that the
Gestapo had no opportunity to silence them. By their example these two
dignitaries of the Church have swept along with them those groups
within the Catholic Church which still hesitated. On the other hand
quite a number of the lower clerics ended up in prison or in a
concentration camp.
Also in the political resistance movement did the representatives of
the Catholic Church play an important role. Here the pater of the
Jesuites Delp ought to be mentioned before all others; he participated
in the conspiracy that led to the 20th July [1944 attempt to
assassinate Hitler -df]. Later on Delp was executed by the Gestapo.
A particularly important part in the struggle of the resistance
movement against Hitler played the lawyer Joseph Muller who lives in
Munich, Gedonstrasse 4. He had been the political representative of
the Arclidiocese [sic] Munich. At the beginning of the war, Joseph
Muller became a Captain in the CI-section under Admiral Canaris. In
this function Joseph Muller was to influence the attitude of the
dignitaries of the Catholic Church against Hitler and also to negotiate
with the Vatican. The aim of these negotiations was to find out thru
the Vatican under what conditions a Germany liberated from Hitler could
make peace. On the part of the Vatican the negotiations were conducted
by the personnal [sic] secretary of Pope Pius XII, Padre Leiber. In
the course of years, the negotiations were exceeded also to the
diplomatic representatives at the Vatican, the powers at war with
Germany. In this the English representative Osborn played a major
part.
The negotiations were recorded in writing. The documents were finally
assembled by Admiral Canaris. Later, a part of them was discovered by
the Gestapo. The result was that Canaris and his collaborators were
hanged. Joseph Muller escaped by luck. He is the only person who
possesses detailed information on the complex of these questions. At
the same time Joseph Muller had orders from the Catholic Church to
negotiate with representatives of the Protestant Church in order to
harmonize their measures in the struggle against Hitler.
3.) _Relationship of the Catholic Church with Hitler since 1933_:
The Protestant Church in Germany does not have hierarchic but a
democratic constitution. Apart from that, it is constituted by 28
provincial churches. Therefore it did not have the congeniality and
strictness of the Catholic Church. That is why the struggle of the
Protestant Church against Hitler became much more difficult. If it was
the clerics that bore the brunt of the struggle within the Catholic
Church it was the congregation which became the nest of resistance
within the Protestant Church.
The man who was the first to see Hitler as what he was, and thru whose
example large sections of the Protestant church were incited, is
without doubt pastor Martin Niemoller. Many Protestant ministers
supported him in this struggle. Here are to be named: Pastor
Asmussen, Pastor Gruber, General Superintendent Dibelius, Bishop Wurm.
All these men had taken up the fight against Hitler in speeches and
writings. But the majority of them was silenced by being put into the
concentration camp or by being prohibited to speak or write. That did
not prevent their followers from continuing the struggle. Bishop Wurm,
in a memorandum to Minister Frick opposed the killings of the insane,
ordered by Hitler.
In spite of all prohibitions the Protestant Church under the leadership
of Pastor Gruber in Berlin created an organization which helped to save
the life of thousands of Jews. Initial in this action was Assessor
Perels, Justiziar of the Confessional Church entered the political
struggle more and more. In this the following personalities played an
important role:
Pastor Dietrich Bonhoffer, Konsistorialrat Gerstenmeier, Pastor
Schonfeld, Pastor Freudenberg, Pastor Bethge, Pastor Lilje and others.
While in the Catholic camp Joseph Mullner kept up the contact with
politics, Dietrich Bonhoffer played the sane role in the Protestant
camp. They cooperated with Joseph Muller. This way the struggle of
the Catholic and of the Protestant Church were coordinated.
Dietrich Bonhoffer also entered into the services of the CI-section
under Admiral Canaris. Bonhoffer undertook many trips to Switzerland
and to the Skandinavian countries. This way he contacted the
Protestant churches in Europe outside of Germany, informed them about
the events in Germany and so created a common bond between resistance
movements in Germany and Hitler's enemies outside of Germany.
By this Bonhoffer became an important figure in the preparations for
the Coup d'Etat of 20 July 1944. He was later executed. Dr. George
Bell, Bishop of Chichester, possesses information on all the details of
their work. 1st Lt. Steltzer worked in the same direction. He held
contact with the Norwegian bishop Berggrave, who can certify as to the
correctness of this statement.
4.) _Conclusion_.
The resistance movement of the Catholic and Protestant Churches in
Germany has covered the following:
A. The Churches have furnished the political resistance movement with
spiritual and religious weapons.
B. The Churches have carried the idea of the resistance against Hitler
into the large masses of the people. Many ministers of both churches
have become martyrs because of their resistance.
C. The Churches, thru their connections with foreign countries, have
informed the world of the events that took place in Germany and have
constantly kept contact with non-German resistance-groups.
[in the German version: signature]
v. Schlabrendorff
vS/jes
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
[MC]"German Lutheran and Catholic churches.... didn't lift a finger
over... the persecution of Jews"
Father Lichtenberg, in
2-pronged role of Darwinian thought in Holocaust's arrival
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=dford3-1125723152.824465.111490%40g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
URLs in
Goebbels: "Goering... addressed a sharp letter to Bishops Galen...
and Berning"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1124768891.979046.93770%40g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com
Nazi mob beat up Lutheran Pastor Julius von Jan for denouncing
Kristallnacht
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128365980.250455.304140%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
_The End of Illusions: Religious Leaders Confront Hitler's Gathering
Storm_
Joseph Loconte
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0742534995/qid=1127752289/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/002-5908785-4252004?v=glance&s=books
.
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| User: "Soul food" |
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| Title: Re: Church resistance to Hitler |
06 Oct 2005 01:46:15 AM |
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"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> pasted until the bucket ran dry:
Besides small sects there were and there are only two Christian
Churches of importance in Germany, the Protestant and the Catholic
church. <snippitty snip>
Breathtaking observation!
None of which (and boy! was it a lot of hot air!) alters the fact that
Hitler believed what he did because of his Christian upbringing, which
taught him, and which most devout Catholics believe to this day, that
the Jews killed Christ, and also because fascism is a natural
inclination of the Catholic church even more than it is in other
organised (is there any other kind?) religions.
------------------------------------------------
"The real dichotomy in today's world is between reason and religion.
The future of civilisation rests upon how many people realise that and do something about it."
D Silverman FLAHN, SMLAHN
AA #2208
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Church resistance to Hitler |
06 Oct 2005 10:25:23 AM |
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On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 07:46:15 +0100,
Soul food <cthulhu@soulstogo.com> wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> pasted until the bucket ran dry:
Besides small sects there were and there are only two Christian
Churches of importance in Germany, the Protestant and the Catholic
church. <snippitty snip>
Breathtaking observation!
None of which (and boy! was it a lot of hot air!) alters the fact that
Hitler believed what he did because of his Christian upbringing, which
taught him, and which most devout Catholics believe to this day, that
the Jews killed Christ, and also because fascism is a natural
inclination of the Catholic church even more than it is in other
organised (is there any other kind?) religions.
Well, I'm still waiting for David to actually answer the question I posed to
him some time now:
David, were the people who built and maintained the gas chambers and ovens
where millions of Jews were sent, were the people that ran the railways that
transported the doomed Jews, were the people who sorted through the
belongings of the Jews and the people who took possession of their property
and the people who ran the bureaucracy of the HOlocaust Christians?
--
Aaron Clausen
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
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| User: "Mitchell Coffey" |
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| Title: Re: Church resistance to Hitler |
06 Oct 2005 02:24:23 AM |
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On 5 Oct 2005 18:25:42 -0700, "david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdot...@hunter.news.rcn.net> in
"Re: Darwin Contribute to Holocaust?" on 6 Jul 2004 in news:
<7iake09k1mah7ufcb9fkq4t385htsoei92@4ax.com>...
On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:05:24 +0000 (UTC), (david
ford) wrote:
Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdot...@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<0gdfe01b6e8bsq40mtlqtevhfg31260m8c@4ax.com>...
On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 13:28:02 +0000 (UTC), (david ford) wrote:
Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdot...@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<fjcce056p0s9nd0mbsa03csgjqc2gunhna@4ax.com>...
On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 23:38:18 +0000 (UTC), (david ford) wrote:
Mitchell Coffey <mdotcoffeyatstarpowerdot...@hunter.news.rcn.net> wrote in message news:<ch6be0had715obpbfr9kqlt9jrqstbkpjc@4ax.com>...
Are you going to post any evidence that Darwin made some significant
contribution to the Holocaust,
Probably, after a certain book arrives and I've looked at it.
http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/books/b089.htm
[snip]
I take it you've already read whatever this
book may be,
I haven't yet. I did, though, read the text above, and the chapter
"Adolf Hitler: Neo-Darwinism and Genocide" in Koster's book, the
table of contents of which appears at the end of
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0406230445.7cff0545%40posting.google.com
Ideas have consequences.
Indeed they do. What was the response of German Lutheran and Catholic
churches to Krystalnacht, compared to their reaction a year latter to
the mass murder of mentally ill and retarded Germans a year later?
I don't know. What?
They didn't lift a finger over Krystalnacht, and the persecution of
Jews in general. They undertook a national dialogue in their churches
on the subject of the mass murder of the "mentally unfit." There was
a great deal of support for the policy, particularly among the
Lutherans, but in the end both churches opposed the program and,
through public opposition, shut it down.
The end of the murder of the "unfit" is to both churches' lasting
credit. But it shows that they could effect decisive opposition to
core Nazi policy as late as 1939 and 1940. Their failure to act on
the persecution of the Jews prior to that appears to be willful.
If we agree that ideas have consequences we should be
consistent about it.
[snip]
[MC]"German Lutheran and Catholic churches.... didn't lift a finger
over Krystalnacht, and the persecution of Jews in general."
Nazi mob beat up Lutheran Pastor Julius von Jan for denouncing
Kristallnacht
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-1128365980.250455.304140%40f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com
Right, one Pastor does not equal the "German Lutheran and Catholic
churches."
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
From
http://www.camlaw.rutgers.edu/publications/law-religion/nuremberg/nurinst1.htm
[snip]
This dubious draft report contains one sentence that would contradict
what I wrote:
"In spite of all prohibitions the Protestant Church under the
leadership of Pastor Gruber in Berlin created an organization which
helped to save the life of thousands of Jews."
This implies the mainline German Protestant Church institution was
involved. This is not true. Gruber's effort was at part of the
German "Confessing Church," a splinter-church that broke off from the
main Lutheran Church because the latter was too-much in bed with the
Nazis. The C | | | | |
