| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"david ford" |
| Date: |
25 Mar 2005 09:19:13 PM |
| Object: |
Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
The affidavit extracts below demonstrate the falsity of the old media's
erroneous allegation that 'no one is home' in Terri Schindler Schiavo.
Also, Terri can anticipate and feel pain.
A U.S. judiciary run amok and a shameless American Criminal Liberties
Union are intent on murdering via starvation an innocent/ guiltless and
defenseless woman.
Decency demands that this unjustified, court-imposed death sentence on
Terri Schindler Schiavo be stopped.
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and
ACLU run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
From
http://www.hospicepatients.org/terri-schindler-schiavo-docs-links-page.html
from the PDF "Affidavit of William Cheshire, Jr., MD 03-23-05":
AFFIDAVIT
STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF DUVALL
Before me this day personally appeared William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D.,
who, being duly sworn, deposes and says:
I, William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D., have personal knowledge of the
facts stated in this declaration and, if called as a witness, I could
and would testify competently thereto under oath. I declare as follows:
I am a neurologist practicing in the State of Florida and am certified
by the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology. In regard to my
educational background, I received an A.B. in biochemical sciences from
Princeton University, an M.A. in bioethics from Trinity International
University, and an M.D. from West Virginia University. I completed an
internship in internal medicine at West Virginia University, a residency
in neurology and a pain fellowship at the University of North Carolina.
I am also an appointed volunteer with the Florida Statewide Adult
Protective Services team, in which capacity I was called on March 1,
2005, to provide an independent and objective medical review of
allegations of possible abuse, neglect, or exploitation of Ms. Theresa
Marie Schiavo.
Although no one from the Department of Children and Families has
inquired about my personal views about treatment decisions in cases of
persistent vegetative state (PVS), I would like to disclose that I came
into this case with the belief that it can be ethically permissible to
discontinue artificially provided nutrition and hydration for patients
in a persistent vegetative state. Having now reviewed the relevant
facts, having met and observed Ms. Schiavo in person, and having
reflected deeply on the moral and ethical issues, I would like to
explain why I change my mind in regard to this particular case.
.....
Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS. These include:
1. Her behavior is frequently context-specific. For example, her
facial expression brightens and she smiles in response to the voice of
familiar persons such as her parents or her nurse. Her agitation
subsides and her facial demeanor softens when quiet music is played.
When jubilant piano music is played, her face brightens, she lifts her
eyebrows, smiles, and even laughs. Her lateral gaze toward the tape
player is sustained for many minutes. Several times I witnessed Terri
briefly, albeit inconsistently, laugh in response to a humorous comment
someone in the room had made. I did not see her laugh in the absence of
someone else's laughter.
2. Although she does not seem to track or follow visual objects
consistently or for long periods of time, she does fixate her gaze on
colorful objects or human faces for some 15 seconds at a time and
occasionally follows with her eyes at least briefly as these objects
move from side to side. When I first walked into her room, she
immediately turned her head toward me and looked directly at my face.
There was a lot of curiosity or expectation in her expression, and she
maintained eye contact for about half a minute. Later, when she again
looked at me, she brought her lips together as if to pronounce the
letter "O," and although for a moment it appeared that she might be
making an intentional effort to speak, her face then fell blank, and no
words came out.
3. Although I did not hear Terri utter distinct words, she demonstrates
emotional expressivity by her use of a single syllable of vocalizations
such as "ah," making cooing sounds, or by expressing guttural sounds of
annoyance or moaning appropriate to the context of the situation. The
context-specific range and the variability of her vocalizations suggests
at least a reasonable probability of the processing of emotional thought
within her brain. There have been reports of Terri rarely using actual
words specific to her situational context. The July 25, 2003 affidavit
of the speech pathologist Sarah Green Mole, MS, on page 6, reads, "The
records of Mediplex reflect the fact that she has said 'stop' in
apparent response to a medical procedure being done to her." The Adult
Protective Services team has been unable to retrieve those original
medical records in this instance.
4. Although Terri has not consistently followed commands, there
appeared to be some notable exceptions. In the taped examination by Dr.
Hammesfahr from 2002, when asked to close her eyes she began to blink
repeatedly. Although it was unclear whether she squeezed her grip when
asked, she did appear to raise her right leg four times in succession
each time she was asked to do so. Rehabilitation notes from 1991
indicated that she tracked inconsistently, and although she did not
develop a yes/no communication system, did follow some commands
inconsistently and demonstrated good eye contact to family members.
5. There is a remarkable moment in the videotape of the September 3,
2002 examination by Dr. Hammesfahr that seemed to go unnoticed at the
time. At 2:44 p.m., Dr. Hammesfahr had just turned Terri onto her right
side to examine her back with a painful sharp stimulus (a sharp piece of
wood), to which Terri had responded with signs of discomfort. Well
after he ceased applying the stimulus and had returned Terri to a
comfortable position, he says to her parents, "So, we're going to have
to roll her over...." Immediately Terri cries. She vocalizes a crying
sound, "Ugh, ha, ha, ha," presses her eyebrows together, and sadly
grimaces. It is important to note that, at that moment, no one is
touching Terri or causing actual pain. Rather, she appears to
comprehend the meaning of Dr. Hammesfahr's comment and she signals her
_anticipation_ of pain. This response suggests some degree of language
processing and interpretation at the level of the cerebral cortex. It
also suggests that she may be aware of pain beyond what could be
explained by simple reflex withdrawal.
6. According to the definition of PVS published by the American Academy
of Neurology, "persistent vegetative state patients do not have the
capacity to experience pain or suffering. Pain and suffering are
attributes of consciousness requiring cerebral cortical functioning, and
patients who are permanently and completely unconscious cannot
experience these symptoms."^6 And yet, in my review of Terri's medical
records, pain issues keep surfacing. The nurses at Woodside Hospice
told us that she often has pain with menstrual cramps. Menstrual flow
is associated with agitation, repeated or sustained moaning, facial
grimacing, limb posturing, and facial flushing, all of which subside
once she is given ibuprofen. Some of the records document moaning,
crying, and other painful behavior in the setting of urinary tract
infections.
.....
7. To enter the room of Terri Schiavo is nothing like entering the room
of a patient who is comatose or brain-dead or in some neurological sense
no longer there. Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90
minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness,
or volitional behavior, yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the
presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of
some things around her.
As I looked at Terri, and she gazed directly back at me, I asked myself
whether, if I were her attending physician, I could in good conscience
withdraw nutrition and hydration. No, I could not. I could not
withdraw life support if I were asked. I could not withhold
life-sustaining nutrition and hydration from this beautiful lady whose
face brightens in the presence of others.
The neurologic signs are in many ways ambiguous. There is no guarantee
that more sophisticated testing would definitively resolve that
ambiguity to everyone's satisfaction. There would be value, I think, in
obtaining a functional MRI scan if that is possible.
This situation differs fundamentally from end-of-life scenarios where it
is appropriate to withdraw life-sustaining medical interventions that no
longer benefit or are burdensome to patients in the terminal stages of
illness. Terri's feeding tube is not a burden to her. It is not
painful, is not infected, is not eroding her stomach lining or causing
any medical complications. But for the decision to withdraw her feeding
tube, Terri cannot be considered medically terminal. But for the
withdrawal of food and water, she would not die [well, she would not die
now-- everybody dies eventually, sometimes sooner rather than later. We
never know when we will go to meet our Maker. -df].
In summary, Terri [Schindler] Schiavo demonstrates behaviors in a
variety of cognitive domains that call into question the previous
neurologic diagnosis of persistent vegetative state. Specifically, she
has demonstrated behaviors that are context-specific, sustained, and
indicative of a cerebral cortical processing that, upon careful
neurologic consideration, would not be expected in a persistent
vegetative state.
Based on this evidence, I believe that, within a reasonable degree of
medical certainty, there is a greater likelihood that Terri is in a
minimally conscious state than a persistent vegetative state. This
distinction makes an enormous difference in making ethical decisions on
Terri's behalf. If Terri is sufficiently aware of her surroundings that
she can feel pleasure and suffer, if she is capable of understanding to
some degree how she is being treated, then in my judgment it would be
wrong to bring about her death by withdrawing food and water.
At the time of this writing, Terri Schiavo, as the result of the
decisions based on what I have argued to be a faulty diagnosis of
persistent vegetative state, has been without food or water for 5 days.
She is thus at risk of death or serious injury unless the provision of
food and water can be restored. Terri Schiavo lacks the capacity to
consent to emergency protective services and must trust others to act on
her behalf. If she were to be transferred to another facility, it would
be medically necessary first to initiate hydration and ensure that her
serum electrolytes are within normal values.
How medicine and society choose to think about Terri [Schindler] Schiavo
will influence what kind of people we will be as we evaluate and respond
to the needs of the most vulnerable people among us. When serious
doubts exist as to whether a cognitively impaired person is or is not
consciously aware, even if these doubts cannot be conclusively resolved,
it is better to err on the side of protecting vulnerable life.
Respectfully submitted,
William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D., M.A., F.A.A.N.
[signature]
Sworn to (or affirmed) and subscribed before me this 23[rd] day of
March, 2005, by William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D.
[notary stamp and signature]
======================================================================
articles: livelier ones are by Thomas Sowell and William Kristol. Eric
Cohen's is very thoughtful.
http://www.townhall.com
Cal Thomas: Schiavo case matters in symbol and substance
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adfseF68nkocU1%40individual.net
Justifications for taking of human life?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aj33dF67kgcuU2%40individual.net
any atheists against Terri Schindler Schiavo's being starved to death?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adrlvF69l60hU1%40individual.net
1997 Wesley Smith on Germany's slippery slope slide from devaluing some
human life to a little euthanasia/ killing to mass killings
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3abe1cF6ac7t2U1%40individual.net
ACLU: Legal Terrorists
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/11/27/195402.shtml
Terri Schindler Schiavo Case
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/10/16/223430.shtml
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43463
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and
ACLU run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
.
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| User: "Stanley Friesen" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Apr 2005 08:45:45 AM |
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r norman <rsn_@_comcast.net> wrote:
Well, the point is knowing how the brain works. The fact is that the
bulk of the cortex in the scan was paper thin, literally. This means
all of the interconnections by which the cortex passes signals around
are *gone*. And with the those interconnections gone, so, necessarily,
are the major neurons of the cortex - the pyramidal cells. The brain
simply cannot function without those interconnects. And then there is
the whole issue of what sort of trauma could make essentially the
*entire* cortex lose its inner, white matter, layers.
[The "most of what was visible" was a qualification due to only having
one slice of the CT scan available, rather than the whole scan].
I guess it depends on what you mean by "functional". At the cellular
level, there could be cells metabolizing, making electrical
potentials, and spitting synaptic transmitters at each other, carrying
on "business as usual" although in a far attenuated state.
Well, not just "attenuated", also *isolated*. There would have been no
coordination over larger regions of the brain. And it is this
coordination that we call things like "thinking" and "memory".
It would be rather like the bluegill that I caught and dissected as a
child. Even days after the fish was dead the heart was still beating.
Heck, it continued beating after I *removed* it. The parts may have
been *individually* functional, but the system as a whole was no longer
operational.
At the
organismal level, "the entity formerly known as Terri" was clearly not
at all functional. At the organ system level, many of her organs and
systems functioned to one degree or another, others clearly did not.
Unfortunately some extremists pick and choose definitions of "living"
to suit their own needs.
My definition of a living *person* would be having a working brain. As
far as I am concerned when my brain stops working, *I* (the person) am
no longer around. If my body continues to operate it is of no concern
to *me*, since I will not be here to care.
remotely similar to what we call "human consciousness". Even more to
the point, having cellular activity that produces movements and
occasional responses to extreme stimuli is a far cry from having a
functional brain capable of supporting anything remotely similar to
consciousness.
In her case this was due to the brainstem still being functional. Every
activity she is said to have engaged in after the cortex achieved its
afunctional state is consistent with brainstem activity.
This whole sad episode is really just a failure to recognize the
distinction between cellular death and organismal death.
Yep. Well, that and wishful thinking. Her parents *wanted* there to be
hope, *wanted* her to still be alive, so they saw what they wanted to
see.
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
.
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| User: "Robin Levett" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
01 May 2005 09:58:08 AM |
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Stanley Friesen wrote:
Robin Levett <rnlevett@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Glenn wrote:
In 2001. You yourself have used the term "no cortex", have you not?
About Terri Schiavo, once - in a post in which I used the term
"essentially
no cortex" on a number of occasions. That is my understanding of the
position, and that is also the conclusion come to by the trial judge which
the DCA didn't disturb.
Certainly you seem to advocate that as how we should have regarded her
condition.
No; "essentially no cortex" is my understanding.
And it matches my analysis of the portion of her CAT scan that has been
published on the Web. While I am not a doctor, I *am* a biologist, and
know more than a little about neurobiology. There was *no* normal
cortical tissue visible in the CAT scan. And most of what was visible
was fairly clearly non-functional.
Thank you Stanley - and for the subsequent conversation with r norman -
which I doubt Glenn would admit to having read...
--
Robin Levett
rlevett@rlevett.ibmuklunix.net (unmunge by removing big blue - don't yahoo)
.
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| User: "josephus" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
13 Apr 2005 06:50:23 PM |
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david ford wrote:
Robin Levett <rnlevett@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<gupti2-gsq.ln1@grendel.HAYESWAY>...
david ford wrote:
shane <remarcsdNOSPAM@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:<e3F6e.17$5X3.29@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>...
David, thanks for responding, please ignore the re-post on another
active part of the thread, my news-server had not indicated any new
messages, but when i hit 'get messages' your response appeared.
I haven't seen your "re-post."
david ford wrote:
shane <remarcsdNOSPAM@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:<U476e.654$R57.19041@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au>...
<snip for space>
David, you have been championing this cause for quite a while now,
showing an admirable amount of determination to see it through to the
end.
The "end" will be, for me, when the major media tells it like it is
about: Terri's actual condition, and Michael's maltreatment of Terri
through the years.
This attitude seems to pre-suppose an outcome prior to the
investigation.
I'm doing my own "investigation."
No you're not. You're searching for something - anything - that supports
your preconceptions.
What are some of these "preconceptions," in your view?
Do you have any "preconceptions"?
Why does that remind me of all creationists?
<snippage>
My preconception is that David Ford is and idiot. and afflicted with
religiosity. I seldom see anything it change that. Especially where
David Ford is involved. His incessant quote mining and his failure to
understand what the real issues are. Just typical creationist
activities, He especially shows religiosity. The obsesivenes is bag
and baggage. Some one suggested he could help in a different thread.
I see David is obsessively posting here. religiosity.
josephus
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
14 Apr 2005 08:43:26 AM |
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josephus <dogbird@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3fi7e.5805$lP1.956@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
My preconception is that David Ford is and idiot. and afflicted with
religiosity.
Do you think maff is an "idiot"?
have maff, Humphrey, Dwyer, Dennett, and Dawkins gone around
[LM]"behaving like idiots"?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-36ptr0F53hkerU1%40individual.net
I seldom see anything it change that. Especially where
David Ford is involved. His incessant quote mining and his failure to
understand what the real issues are. Just typical creationist
activities, He especially shows religiosity. The obsesivenes is bag
and baggage. Some one suggested he could help in a different thread.
I see David is obsessively posting here. religiosity.
Are you aware of anyone else that engages in "obsessively posting" to
newsgroups?
If 'yes,' who are some of those individuals that you admire that
engage in "obsessively posting" to newsgroups?
.
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
15 Apr 2005 02:57:54 AM |
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david ford wrote:
[...]
But you're the certified scietifically illiterate Christian fascist
idiot.
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
18 Apr 2005 06:16:30 AM |
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"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1113551873.940585.7960@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>...
david ford wrote:
[...]
But you're the certified scietifically illiterate Christian fascist
idiot.
Was Einstein "certified scietifically illiterate"?
Einstein: physics was designed
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-37f67dF59po8jU1%40individual.net
.
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| User: "DanielSan" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
18 Apr 2005 06:27:37 AM |
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david ford wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1113551873.940585.7960@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>...
david ford wrote:
[...]
But you're the certified scietifically illiterate Christian fascist
idiot.
Was Einstein "certified scietifically illiterate"?
Einstein: physics was designed
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-37f67dF59po8jU1%40individual.net
I read the post. Apparently, what Einstein is saying is classic
argument from ignorance. We don't know, so God must have done it.
We've never said that theists (Einstein appears to be a deist, actually)
were ALL-AROUND-STUPID. We just say that they've got some odd ideas on
the universe and are approaching things *****-backwards.
By the way, david, did you know that you're doing a classic "appeal to
authority" fallacy?
.
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| User: "josephus" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
20 Apr 2005 06:25:21 PM |
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david ford wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1113551873.940585.7960@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>...
david ford wrote:
[...]
But you're the certified scietifically illiterate Christian fascist
idiot.
Was Einstein "certified scietifically illiterate"?
Trying to tie your incompetence to Einstein? He was an extremely
knowledgeable ttheoretical physicist. You are a dufus and a stupid
creationist. The law of similarity does not work and you can rub
Einstein all over you and you will still be a stupid dufus and an
ignoramus and a creationist acting much like a Jehovah Witness.
I see you as an example of extreme religiosity.
josephus
Einstein: physics was designed
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-37f67dF59po8jU1%40individual.net
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
23 Apr 2005 07:13:27 AM |
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josephus <dogbird@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<BxB9e.11361$lP1.3842@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
david ford wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1113551873.940585.7960@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>...
david ford wrote:
[...]
But you're the certified scietifically illiterate Christian fascist
idiot.
Was Einstein "certified scietifically illiterate"?
Trying to tie your incompetence to Einstein? He was an extremely
knowledgeable ttheoretical physicist. You are a dufus and a stupid
creationist.
Newton a creationist regarding biology. Ref:
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3877igF5kk9siU2%40individual.net
Was Newton "a dufus and a stupid creationist," in your view?
The law of similarity does not work and you can rub
Einstein all over you and you will still be a stupid dufus and an
ignoramus and a creationist acting much like a Jehovah Witness.
I see you as an example of extreme religiosity.
Do you "see" Newton "as an example of extreme religiosity"?
Einstein: physics was designed
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-37f67dF59po8jU1%40individual.net
.
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| User: "josephus" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
23 Apr 2005 07:37:36 PM |
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david ford wrote:
josephus <dogbird@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<BxB9e.11361$lP1.3842@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
david ford wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1113551873.940585.7960@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>...
david ford wrote:
[...]
But you're the certified scietifically illiterate Christian fascist
idiot.
Was Einstein "certified scietifically illiterate"?
Trying to tie your incompetence to Einstein? He was an extremely
knowledgeable ttheoretical physicist. You are a dufus and a stupid
creationist.
Newton a creationist regarding biology. Ref:
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3877igF5kk9siU2%40individual.net
Was Newton "a dufus and a stupid creationist," in your view?
The law of similarity does not work and you can rub
Einstein all over you and you will still be a stupid dufus and an
ignoramus and a creationist acting much like a Jehovah Witness.
I see you as an example of extreme religiosity.
Do you "see" Newton "as an example of extreme religiosity"?
Einstein: physics was designed
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-37f67dF59po8jU1%40individual.net
David you are trying to change the subject. Feel free. It still means
you are a dufus. Newton lived 300+ years ago . The culture he was in
had very different restrictions. they would have crucified you as a
heretic.
I have always noted that claiming things like NEWTON WAS A CREATIONIST
are stupid on the face. I know about the Alchemy and the Spiritualism
But he laid down very reproducible mathematics and physics. The
solution to the orbital problem was like a lightning bolt in the dark.
To invent this he had invented calculus. I am very familiar with
extremely intelligent people. They have very eccentric hobbies. Why
would Newton be any different
joosephus
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
25 Apr 2005 06:24:47 AM |
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josephus <dogbird@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<kTBae.10804$yq6.7987@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
david ford wrote:
josephus <dogbird@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<BxB9e.11361$lP1.3842@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
david ford wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1113551873.940585.7960@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>...
david ford wrote:
[...]
But you're the certified scietifically illiterate Christian fascist
idiot.
Was Einstein "certified scietifically illiterate"?
Trying to tie your incompetence to Einstein? He was an extremely
knowledgeable ttheoretical physicist. You are a dufus and a stupid
creationist.
Newton a creationist regarding biology. Ref:
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3877igF5kk9siU2%40individual.net
Was Newton "a dufus and a stupid creationist," in your view?
The law of similarity does not work and you can rub
Einstein all over you and you will still be a stupid dufus and an
ignoramus and a creationist acting much like a Jehovah Witness.
I see you as an example of extreme religiosity.
Do you "see" Newton "as an example of extreme religiosity"?
Einstein: physics was designed
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-37f67dF59po8jU1%40individual.net
David you are trying to change the subject. Feel free.
What is "the subject"?
It still means
you are a dufus.
Feynman, R. Reid, and Berlinski on _ad hominems_
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.96A.990102235105.11328B-100000%40umbc9.umbc.edu
Newton lived 300+ years ago . The culture he was in
had very different restrictions. they would have crucified you as a
heretic.
"they would have crucified you [df] as a heretic" over what?
I have always noted that claiming things like NEWTON WAS A CREATIONIST
are stupid on the face.
How would you characterize Newton-- as an evolutionist?
Newton, Sir Isaac. 1704, 1717. _Optics_ in _Great
Books of the Western World: 34: Newton
Huygens_, Robert Maynard Hutchins, editor
in chief (USA: Encyclopaedia Britannica,
Inc., 1952), 619pp., 377-544. On 542:
And so must the uniformity in the bodies of animals,
they having generally a right and a left side shaped
alike, and on either side of their bodies two legs behind,
and either two arms, or two legs, or two wings before
upon their shoulders, and between their shoulders a neck
running down into a backbone, and a head upon it; and
in the head two ears, two eyes, a nose, a mouth, and a
tongue, alike situated. Also the first contrivance of
those very artificial parts of animals, the eyes, ears,
brain, muscles, heart, lungs, midriff, glands, larynx,
hands, wings, swimming bladders, natural spectacles,
and other organs of sense and motion; and the instinct of
brutes and insects can be the effect of nothing else than
the wisdom and skill of a powerful, ever-living agent,
who being in all places, is more able by His will to
move the bodies within His boundless uniform
sensorium, and thereby to form and reform the parts of
the Universe, than we are by our will to move the parts
of our own bodies. And yet we are not to consider the
world as the body of God, or the several parts thereof as
the parts of God. He is a uniform Being, void of organs,
members or parts, and they are his creatures subordinate
to him, and subservient to His will; ....
I know about the Alchemy and the Spiritualism
But he laid down very reproducible mathematics and physics. The
solution to the orbital problem was like a lightning bolt in the dark.
To invent this he had invented calculus. I am very familiar with
extremely intelligent people.
Are you one of these "extremely intelligent people" you are "very
familiar with"?
They have very eccentric hobbies. Why
would Newton be any different
To the best of your knowledge, do I have any "very eccentric hobbies"?
.
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| User: "josephus" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
23 Apr 2005 11:20:41 PM |
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josephus wrote:
david ford wrote:
josephus <dogbird@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<BxB9e.11361$lP1.3842@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
david ford wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1113551873.940585.7960@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>...
david ford wrote:
[...]
But you're the certified scietifically illiterate Christian fascist
idiot.
Was Einstein "certified scietifically illiterate"?
Trying to tie your incompetence to Einstein? He was an extremely
knowledgeable ttheoretical physicist. You are a dufus and a stupid
creationist.
Newton a creationist regarding biology. Ref:
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3877igF5kk9siU2%40individual.net
Was Newton "a dufus and a stupid creationist," in your view?
The law of similarity does not work and you can rub
Einstein all over you and you will still be a stupid dufus and an
ignoramus and a creationist acting much like a Jehovah Witness.
I see you as an example of extreme religiosity.
Do you "see" Newton "as an example of extreme religiosity"?
Einstein: physics was designed
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-37f67dF59po8jU1%40individual.net
David you are trying to change the subject. Feel free. It still means
you are a dufus. Newton lived 300+ years ago . The culture he was in
had very different restrictions. they would have crucified you as a
heretic.
I have always noted that claiming things like NEWTON WAS A CREATIONIST
are stupid on the face. I know about the Alchemy and the Spiritualism
But he laid down very reproducible mathematics and physics. The
solution to the orbital problem was like a lightning bolt in the dark.
To invent this he had invented calculus. I am very familiar with
extremely intelligent people. They have very eccentric hobbies. Why
would Newton be any different
joosephus
Just a thought, have you ever read anything by Newton? Principia? he
mostly wrote in Latin or Greek. and he was fluent in both.
I have seen English books about him I used to own "Newton's Arithmetic"
1769
it was the oldest book I owned. The book was a description of
calculus processes. I have read it.
I have also read "300 years of Gravitation" I think it means I know
more about the physics and math than you do.
josephus
.
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| User: "david ford" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
25 Apr 2005 06:31:26 AM |
|
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josephus <dogbird@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<t8Fae.10884$yq6.5656@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
josephus wrote:
David you are trying to change the subject. Feel free. It still means
you are a dufus. Newton lived 300+ years ago . The culture he was in
had very different restrictions. they would have crucified you as a
heretic.
I have always noted that claiming things like NEWTON WAS A CREATIONIST
are stupid on the face. I know about the Alchemy and the Spiritualism
But he laid down very reproducible mathematics and physics. The
solution to the orbital problem was like a lightning bolt in the dark.
To invent this he had invented calculus. I am very familiar with
extremely intelligent people. They have very eccentric hobbies. Why
would Newton be any different
Just a thought, have you ever read anything by Newton? Principia?
Of Newton, I've read merely a few pages from _Optics_.
he
mostly wrote in Latin or Greek. and he was fluent in both.
I have seen English books about him I used to own "Newton's Arithmetic"
1769
it was the oldest book I owned. The book was a description of
calculus processes. I have read it.
Impressive.
I have also read "300 years of Gravitation" I think it means I know
more about the physics and math than you do.
Yes, you "know more about the physics and math than you [df]."
Do you agree with Einstein that physics has the appearance of having
been designed by a super-intellect?
What do you think caused the beginning of the universe in the big
bang?
The Search for a Loophole to the Beginning of the Universe
in the Big Bang and to the Seeming-Design of Physics
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.10A.B3.10005292327160.25513-100000%40jabba.gl.umbc.edu
Einstein: physics was designed
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-37f67dF59po8jU1%40individual.net
.
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| User: "josephus" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
25 Apr 2005 08:23:04 PM |
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david ford wrote:
josephus <dogbird@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<t8Fae.10884$yq6.5656@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
josephus wrote:
David you are trying to change the subject. Feel free. It still means
you are a dufus. Newton lived 300+ years ago . The culture he was in
had very different restrictions. they would have crucified you as a
heretic.
I have always noted that claiming things like NEWTON WAS A CREATIONIST
are stupid on the face. I know about the Alchemy and the Spiritualism
But he laid down very reproducible mathematics and physics. The
solution to the orbital problem was like a lightning bolt in the dark.
To invent this he had invented calculus. I am very familiar with
extremely intelligent people. They have very eccentric hobbies. Why
would Newton be any different
Just a thought, have you ever read anything by Newton? Principia?
Of Newton, I've read merely a few pages from _Optics_.
he
mostly wrote in Latin or Greek. and he was fluent in both.
I have seen English books about him I used to own "Newton's Arithmetic"
1769
it was the oldest book I owned. The book was a description of
calculus processes. I have read it.
Impressive.
I have also read "300 years of Gravitation" I think it means I know
more about the physics and math than you do.
Yes, you "know more about the physics and math than you [df]."
Do you agree with Einstein that physics has the appearance of having
been designed by a super-intellect?
I know why Einstein thought that. He was a child of the 19th century.
but he was an advanced student of physics. If he said something like
the Lamda factor was a mistake, it is because he was at the edge of
understanding. He solved the equations first. I have a book on
cosmology and it references those equations. He found E=Mc^2 as a
solution to a set of equations. He had to account for all previous
physics in his theory. It was so strange and new, but in 1910 a
measurement of the predicted deviation of light was done during an
eclipse. If he thought it was a mistake, he may have been wrong but it
took 70 years to prove it.
What do you think caused the beginning of the universe in the big
bang?
I dont know, some folks say a vacuum fluctuation. But nobody knows
where the energy came from. matter is condensed energy. the book I am
reading right now is by RAYCHAUDHURI Cosmology Oxford 1989. it has a
chapter on the history of the big bang. There is a lot of evidence
that supports it. It is just one chapter in a medium sized survey of
cosmology.
josephus
The Search for a Loophole to the Beginning of the Universe
in the Big Bang and to the Seeming-Design of Physics
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.10A.B3.10005292327160.25513-100000%40jabba.gl.umbc.edu
Einstein: physics was designed
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-37f67dF59po8jU1%40individual.net
.
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| User: "david ford" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
01 May 2005 03:01:57 PM |
|
|
josephus <dogbird@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<YJgbe.13477$lP1.888@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
david ford wrote:
josephus <dogbird@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<t8Fae.10884$yq6.5656@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
josephus wrote:
David you are trying to change the subject. Feel free. It still means
you are a dufus. Newton lived 300+ years ago . The culture he was in
had very different restrictions. they would have crucified you as a
heretic.
I have always noted that claiming things like NEWTON WAS A CREATIONIST
are stupid on the face. I know about the Alchemy and the Spiritualism
But he laid down very reproducible mathematics and physics. The
solution to the orbital problem was like a lightning bolt in the dark.
To invent this he had invented calculus. I am very familiar with
extremely intelligent people. They have very eccentric hobbies. Why
would Newton be any different
Just a thought, have you ever read anything by Newton? Principia?
Of Newton, I've read merely a few pages from _Optics_.
he
mostly wrote in Latin or Greek. and he was fluent in both.
I have seen English books about him I used to own "Newton's Arithmetic"
1769
it was the oldest book I owned. The book was a description of
calculus processes. I have read it.
Impressive.
I have also read "300 years of Gravitation" I think it means I know
more about the physics and math than you do.
Yes, you "know more about the physics and math than you [df]."
Do you agree with Einstein that physics has the appearance of having
been designed by a super-intellect?
I know why Einstein thought that.
Oh, do tell more.
He was a child of the 19th century.
but he was an advanced student of physics.
You left out how Einstein became devout in his religious beliefs, and
how he then later became an atheist when 11 or 12 though reading
pop-science books.
You didn't answer my question of,
Do you agree with Einstein that physics has the appearance of having
been designed by a super-intellect?
Einstein: physics was designed
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-37f67dF59po8jU1%40individual.net
If he said something like
the Lamda factor was a mistake, it is because he was at the edge of
understanding. He solved the equations first. I have a book on
cosmology and it references those equations.
Impressive-- I wish I had such a book.
He found E=Mc^2 as a
solution to a set of equations. He had to account for all previous
physics in his theory. It was so strange and new, but in 1910 a
measurement of the predicted deviation of light was done during an
eclipse.
The 1919 experiment was ambiguous.
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.95.970808020249.13466K-100000%40umbc10.umbc.edu
If he thought it was a mistake, he may have been wrong but it
took 70 years to prove it.
What do you think caused the beginning of the universe in the big
bang?
I dont know, some folks say a vacuum fluctuation.
What do you think were the causes of the origination of biological
life?
But nobody knows
where the energy came from. matter is condensed energy. the book I am
reading right now is by RAYCHAUDHURI Cosmology Oxford 1989. it has a
chapter on the history of the big bang. There is a lot of evidence
that supports it. It is just one chapter in a medium sized survey of
cosmology.
The Search for a Loophole to the Beginning of the Universe
in the Big Bang and to the Seeming-Design of Physics
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.10A.B3.10005292327160.25513-100000%40jabba.gl.umbc.edu
Einstein: physics was designed
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-37f67dF59po8jU1%40individual.net
.
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| User: "Deadrat" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
01 May 2005 04:23:56 PM |
|
|
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-b1c67abe.0505011201.21f5346c@posting.google.com...
josephus <dogbird@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<YJgbe.13477$lP1.888@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
<snip>
Do you agree with Einstein that physics has the appearance of having
been designed by a super-intellect?
I know why Einstein thought that.
Oh, do tell more.
He was a child of the 19th century.
but he was an advanced student of physics.
You left out how Einstein became devout in his religious beliefs, and
how he then later became an atheist when 11 or 12 though reading
pop-science books.
You didn't answer my question of,
Do you agree with Einstein that physics has the appearance of having
been designed by a super-intellect?
Here's a quote from Einstein:
The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the
firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this
ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the
rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of
natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with
natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for
this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific
knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.
But I am convinced that such behavior on the part of representatives of
religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is
to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of
necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human
progress. In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must
have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up
that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the
hands of priests. In their labors they will have to avail themselves of
those forces which are capable of cultivating the Good, the True, and the
Beautiful in humanity itself. This is, to be sure, a more difficult but an
incomparably more worthy task ...
Science, Philosophy, and Religion,
A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy, and
Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc.,
New York, 1941
Two more quotes:
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie
which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God
and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is
in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for
the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to
be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.>
Einstein: physics was designed
Albert Einstein: The Human Side,
edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman,
Princeton University Press.
Full disclosure: I haven't checked the sources myself.
Feel free to do so.
Clearly, Einstein's views of God have absolutely nothing to do with yours.
Doesn't make you wrong in your belief in your god; just wrong in claiming
that Einstein was on your side.
<snip>
Deadrat
.
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| User: "Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
01 May 2005 03:09:09 PM |
|
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(david ford) wrote in news:dford3-
b1c67abe.0505011201.21f5346c@posting.google.com:
Subject: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition
I hear she's still dead.
.
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| User: "josephus" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
02 May 2005 12:36:42 AM |
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david ford wrote:
josephus <dogbird@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<YJgbe.13477$lP1.888@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
david ford wrote:
josephus <dogbird@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<t8Fae.10884$yq6.5656@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
josephus wrote:
David you are trying to change the subject. Feel free. It still means
you are a dufus. Newton lived 300+ years ago . The culture he was in
had very different restrictions. they would have crucified you as a
heretic.
I have always noted that claiming things like NEWTON WAS A CREATIONIST
are stupid on the face. I know about the Alchemy and the Spiritualism
But he laid down very reproducible mathematics and physics. The
solution to the orbital problem was like a lightning bolt in the dark.
To invent this he had invented calculus. I am very familiar with
extremely intelligent people. They have very eccentric hobbies. Why
would Newton be any different
Just a thought, have you ever read anything by Newton? Principia?
Of Newton, I've read merely a few pages from _Optics_.
he
mostly wrote in Latin or Greek. and he was fluent in both.
I have seen English books about him I used to own "Newton's Arithmetic"
1769
it was the oldest book I owned. The book was a description of
calculus processes. I have read it.
Impressive.
I have also read "300 years of Gravitation" I think it means I know
more about the physics and math than you do.
Yes, you "know more about the physics and math than you [df]."
Do you agree with Einstein that physics has the appearance of having
been designed by a super-intellect?
I know why Einstein thought that.
Oh, do tell more.
He was a child of the 19th century.
but he was an advanced student of physics.
You left out how Einstein became devout in his religious beliefs, and
how he then later became an atheist when 11 or 12 though reading
pop-science books.
You didn't answer my question of,
Do you agree with Einstein that physics has the appearance of having
been designed by a super-intellect?
Einstein: physics was designed
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-37f67dF59po8jU1%40individual.net
If he said something like
the Lamda factor was a mistake, it is because he was at the edge of
understanding. He solved the equations first. I have a book on
cosmology and it references those equations.
Impressive-- I wish I had such a book.
He found E=Mc^2 as a
solution to a set of equations. He had to account for all previous
physics in his theory. It was so strange and new, but in 1910 a
measurement of the predicted deviation of light was done during an
eclipse.
The 1919 experiment was ambiguous.
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.3.95.970808020249.13466K-100000%40umbc10.umbc.edu
If he thought it was a mistake, he may have been wrong but it
took 70 years to prove it.
What do you think caused the beginning of the universe in the big
bang?
I dont know, some folks say a vacuum fluctuation.
What do you think were the causes of the origination of biological
life?
But nobody knows
where the energy came from. matter is condensed energy. the book I am
reading right now is by RAYCHAUDHURI Cosmology Oxford 1989. it has a
chapter on the history of the big bang. There is a lot of evidence
that supports it. It is just one chapter in a medium sized survey of
cosmology.
The Search for a Loophole to the Beginning of the Universe
in the Big Bang and to the Seeming-Design of Physics
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.10A.B3.10005292327160.25513-100000%40jabba.gl.umbc.edu
What loophole? The question is how does the energy escape or enter. I
have wondered if there is a quantum limit on collapse. What happens is
the matter is transformed into energy and is traveling at relativistic
speeds and orbits into a 1 quantum high tear in space. It is just a
speculation. We do not know any such limits. Division by zero is the
definition of a singularity. The physics is reversible. The Big Bang is
the other direction. The anthropomorphic rule just says the universe is
just right to allow us to exit. It says nothing about aboginesis or how
the Big Bang occurred. Or even makes no predictions about the choices
that currently exist.
Einstein: physics was designed
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-37f67dF59po8jU1%40individual.net
Did Einstein think physics was designed? Probably, He was a Deist and
thought that God created everything which runs without God.
But that is a stawman argument. Einstein has nothing to do with YEC
creationism or the death denial of David Ford.
josephus
.
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| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
25 Apr 2005 03:06:23 AM |
|
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david ford wrote:
[...]
Newton wrote about Natural Philosophy and not about supernatural
philosophy, Christian fascist idiot.
The Principia : Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520088174/
by Isaac Newton, I. Bernard Cohen (Translator), Anne Whitman
(Translator)
Among the Inept, Researchers Discover,Ignorance Is Bliss
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/health/011800hth-behavior-incompetents.html
--
Scientific creationism: a religious dogma combining massive ignorance
with incredible arrogance.
Creationist: (1) One who follows creationism. (2) A moron. (3) A person
incapable of doing math. (4) A liar. (5) A very gullible true believer.
.
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| User: "david ford" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
01 May 2005 03:14:14 PM |
|
|
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1114416383.156087.305260@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>...
david ford wrote:
[...]
Newton wrote about Natural Philosophy and not about supernatural
philosophy, Christian fascist idiot.
The Principia : Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0520088174/
by Isaac Newton, I. Bernard Cohen (Translator), Anne Whitman
(Translator)
Among the Inept, Researchers Discover,Ignorance Is Bliss
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/health/011800hth-behavior-incompetents.html
According to Fred Heeren's _Show Me God_ (1995), 268, Charles Babbage
(1792-1871) was the creator of the computer, and wrote a mathematical
analysis of Bible miracles to close out the _Bridgewater
Treatises_.
Was Babbage a:
"idiot"?
"Christian fascist idiot"?
"scientifically illiterate Christian fascist idiot"?
.
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| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
02 May 2005 02:48:03 AM |
|
|
david ford wrote:
[...]
But Charles Bababge wasn't a scientifically illiterate Christian
fascist like you. That's why majority of the Christians defeated
Christian fascists in a Civil War.
Charles Babbage
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Char | | | | | | | | | |
