| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"david ford" |
| Date: |
25 Mar 2005 09:19:13 PM |
| Object: |
Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
The affidavit extracts below demonstrate the falsity of the old media's
erroneous allegation that 'no one is home' in Terri Schindler Schiavo.
Also, Terri can anticipate and feel pain.
A U.S. judiciary run amok and a shameless American Criminal Liberties
Union are intent on murdering via starvation an innocent/ guiltless and
defenseless woman.
Decency demands that this unjustified, court-imposed death sentence on
Terri Schindler Schiavo be stopped.
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and
ACLU run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
From
http://www.hospicepatients.org/terri-schindler-schiavo-docs-links-page.html
from the PDF "Affidavit of William Cheshire, Jr., MD 03-23-05":
AFFIDAVIT
STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF DUVALL
Before me this day personally appeared William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D.,
who, being duly sworn, deposes and says:
I, William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D., have personal knowledge of the
facts stated in this declaration and, if called as a witness, I could
and would testify competently thereto under oath. I declare as follows:
I am a neurologist practicing in the State of Florida and am certified
by the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology. In regard to my
educational background, I received an A.B. in biochemical sciences from
Princeton University, an M.A. in bioethics from Trinity International
University, and an M.D. from West Virginia University. I completed an
internship in internal medicine at West Virginia University, a residency
in neurology and a pain fellowship at the University of North Carolina.
I am also an appointed volunteer with the Florida Statewide Adult
Protective Services team, in which capacity I was called on March 1,
2005, to provide an independent and objective medical review of
allegations of possible abuse, neglect, or exploitation of Ms. Theresa
Marie Schiavo.
Although no one from the Department of Children and Families has
inquired about my personal views about treatment decisions in cases of
persistent vegetative state (PVS), I would like to disclose that I came
into this case with the belief that it can be ethically permissible to
discontinue artificially provided nutrition and hydration for patients
in a persistent vegetative state. Having now reviewed the relevant
facts, having met and observed Ms. Schiavo in person, and having
reflected deeply on the moral and ethical issues, I would like to
explain why I change my mind in regard to this particular case.
.....
Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS. These include:
1. Her behavior is frequently context-specific. For example, her
facial expression brightens and she smiles in response to the voice of
familiar persons such as her parents or her nurse. Her agitation
subsides and her facial demeanor softens when quiet music is played.
When jubilant piano music is played, her face brightens, she lifts her
eyebrows, smiles, and even laughs. Her lateral gaze toward the tape
player is sustained for many minutes. Several times I witnessed Terri
briefly, albeit inconsistently, laugh in response to a humorous comment
someone in the room had made. I did not see her laugh in the absence of
someone else's laughter.
2. Although she does not seem to track or follow visual objects
consistently or for long periods of time, she does fixate her gaze on
colorful objects or human faces for some 15 seconds at a time and
occasionally follows with her eyes at least briefly as these objects
move from side to side. When I first walked into her room, she
immediately turned her head toward me and looked directly at my face.
There was a lot of curiosity or expectation in her expression, and she
maintained eye contact for about half a minute. Later, when she again
looked at me, she brought her lips together as if to pronounce the
letter "O," and although for a moment it appeared that she might be
making an intentional effort to speak, her face then fell blank, and no
words came out.
3. Although I did not hear Terri utter distinct words, she demonstrates
emotional expressivity by her use of a single syllable of vocalizations
such as "ah," making cooing sounds, or by expressing guttural sounds of
annoyance or moaning appropriate to the context of the situation. The
context-specific range and the variability of her vocalizations suggests
at least a reasonable probability of the processing of emotional thought
within her brain. There have been reports of Terri rarely using actual
words specific to her situational context. The July 25, 2003 affidavit
of the speech pathologist Sarah Green Mole, MS, on page 6, reads, "The
records of Mediplex reflect the fact that she has said 'stop' in
apparent response to a medical procedure being done to her." The Adult
Protective Services team has been unable to retrieve those original
medical records in this instance.
4. Although Terri has not consistently followed commands, there
appeared to be some notable exceptions. In the taped examination by Dr.
Hammesfahr from 2002, when asked to close her eyes she began to blink
repeatedly. Although it was unclear whether she squeezed her grip when
asked, she did appear to raise her right leg four times in succession
each time she was asked to do so. Rehabilitation notes from 1991
indicated that she tracked inconsistently, and although she did not
develop a yes/no communication system, did follow some commands
inconsistently and demonstrated good eye contact to family members.
5. There is a remarkable moment in the videotape of the September 3,
2002 examination by Dr. Hammesfahr that seemed to go unnoticed at the
time. At 2:44 p.m., Dr. Hammesfahr had just turned Terri onto her right
side to examine her back with a painful sharp stimulus (a sharp piece of
wood), to which Terri had responded with signs of discomfort. Well
after he ceased applying the stimulus and had returned Terri to a
comfortable position, he says to her parents, "So, we're going to have
to roll her over...." Immediately Terri cries. She vocalizes a crying
sound, "Ugh, ha, ha, ha," presses her eyebrows together, and sadly
grimaces. It is important to note that, at that moment, no one is
touching Terri or causing actual pain. Rather, she appears to
comprehend the meaning of Dr. Hammesfahr's comment and she signals her
_anticipation_ of pain. This response suggests some degree of language
processing and interpretation at the level of the cerebral cortex. It
also suggests that she may be aware of pain beyond what could be
explained by simple reflex withdrawal.
6. According to the definition of PVS published by the American Academy
of Neurology, "persistent vegetative state patients do not have the
capacity to experience pain or suffering. Pain and suffering are
attributes of consciousness requiring cerebral cortical functioning, and
patients who are permanently and completely unconscious cannot
experience these symptoms."^6 And yet, in my review of Terri's medical
records, pain issues keep surfacing. The nurses at Woodside Hospice
told us that she often has pain with menstrual cramps. Menstrual flow
is associated with agitation, repeated or sustained moaning, facial
grimacing, limb posturing, and facial flushing, all of which subside
once she is given ibuprofen. Some of the records document moaning,
crying, and other painful behavior in the setting of urinary tract
infections.
.....
7. To enter the room of Terri Schiavo is nothing like entering the room
of a patient who is comatose or brain-dead or in some neurological sense
no longer there. Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90
minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness,
or volitional behavior, yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the
presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of
some things around her.
As I looked at Terri, and she gazed directly back at me, I asked myself
whether, if I were her attending physician, I could in good conscience
withdraw nutrition and hydration. No, I could not. I could not
withdraw life support if I were asked. I could not withhold
life-sustaining nutrition and hydration from this beautiful lady whose
face brightens in the presence of others.
The neurologic signs are in many ways ambiguous. There is no guarantee
that more sophisticated testing would definitively resolve that
ambiguity to everyone's satisfaction. There would be value, I think, in
obtaining a functional MRI scan if that is possible.
This situation differs fundamentally from end-of-life scenarios where it
is appropriate to withdraw life-sustaining medical interventions that no
longer benefit or are burdensome to patients in the terminal stages of
illness. Terri's feeding tube is not a burden to her. It is not
painful, is not infected, is not eroding her stomach lining or causing
any medical complications. But for the decision to withdraw her feeding
tube, Terri cannot be considered medically terminal. But for the
withdrawal of food and water, she would not die [well, she would not die
now-- everybody dies eventually, sometimes sooner rather than later. We
never know when we will go to meet our Maker. -df].
In summary, Terri [Schindler] Schiavo demonstrates behaviors in a
variety of cognitive domains that call into question the previous
neurologic diagnosis of persistent vegetative state. Specifically, she
has demonstrated behaviors that are context-specific, sustained, and
indicative of a cerebral cortical processing that, upon careful
neurologic consideration, would not be expected in a persistent
vegetative state.
Based on this evidence, I believe that, within a reasonable degree of
medical certainty, there is a greater likelihood that Terri is in a
minimally conscious state than a persistent vegetative state. This
distinction makes an enormous difference in making ethical decisions on
Terri's behalf. If Terri is sufficiently aware of her surroundings that
she can feel pleasure and suffer, if she is capable of understanding to
some degree how she is being treated, then in my judgment it would be
wrong to bring about her death by withdrawing food and water.
At the time of this writing, Terri Schiavo, as the result of the
decisions based on what I have argued to be a faulty diagnosis of
persistent vegetative state, has been without food or water for 5 days.
She is thus at risk of death or serious injury unless the provision of
food and water can be restored. Terri Schiavo lacks the capacity to
consent to emergency protective services and must trust others to act on
her behalf. If she were to be transferred to another facility, it would
be medically necessary first to initiate hydration and ensure that her
serum electrolytes are within normal values.
How medicine and society choose to think about Terri [Schindler] Schiavo
will influence what kind of people we will be as we evaluate and respond
to the needs of the most vulnerable people among us. When serious
doubts exist as to whether a cognitively impaired person is or is not
consciously aware, even if these doubts cannot be conclusively resolved,
it is better to err on the side of protecting vulnerable life.
Respectfully submitted,
William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D., M.A., F.A.A.N.
[signature]
Sworn to (or affirmed) and subscribed before me this 23[rd] day of
March, 2005, by William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D.
[notary stamp and signature]
======================================================================
articles: livelier ones are by Thomas Sowell and William Kristol. Eric
Cohen's is very thoughtful.
http://www.townhall.com
Cal Thomas: Schiavo case matters in symbol and substance
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adfseF68nkocU1%40individual.net
Justifications for taking of human life?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aj33dF67kgcuU2%40individual.net
any atheists against Terri Schindler Schiavo's being starved to death?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adrlvF69l60hU1%40individual.net
1997 Wesley Smith on Germany's slippery slope slide from devaluing some
human life to a little euthanasia/ killing to mass killings
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3abe1cF6ac7t2U1%40individual.net
ACLU: Legal Terrorists
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/11/27/195402.shtml
Terri Schindler Schiavo Case
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/10/16/223430.shtml
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43463
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and
ACLU run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
.
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| User: "Ken Shaw" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
27 Mar 2005 11:16:39 PM |
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david ford wrote:
Hypothesis of What Went Down
Draft 1
27 March 2005
Both Michael and Terri were born in 1963.
They married in November 1984 at the age of about 21.
About 1988: they very much wanted a child, and started fertility
services and counseling that lasted for over 1 year (without Terri
telling her parents-- was Michael very controlling? did Michael order
her to not seek guidance from her parents?)
Before Terri's 25 November 1990 collapse: marital problems: Terri told
her mother that she no longer loved Michael and was considering a
divorce; the infertility probably caused trouble in the marriage;
perhaps there was physical abuse:
a) during testimony from the person that did a bone scan (the referring
doctor said to look for indications of trauma), the questioner asked the
bone scan person whether the following could've caused an injury to the
femur:
being struck with a golf club, being thrown into a sharp furniture
corner, a kick [scan testimony]
b) At some point(s) Terri got a neck injury and got a broken back.
[Bone scan for broken back. Examination by Dr. H. for broken back and
neck injury]
?: At the same time? From what?
Perhaps Michael attempted to strangle Terri, resulting in Terri's neck
injury and in her collapse on 25 November 1990.[H]
Michael had an overbearing, in your face manner of speaking.[nurse]
Perhaps during a heated argument perhaps in part stemming from their
infertility woes, he was very close to her and reached out and strangled
her.
Following the 25 February 1990 collapse, Michael at first saw to it that
Terri received rehabilitative treatments, for example, an experimental
implant that stimulated the brain. [?: good behavior because of guilt
over the strangulation's results?]
Michael sued the fertility place for $16,000,000. [?: an early sign of
a streak of greediness?] During settlement proceedings, he promised to
take care of Terri until death parted them, and reaffirmed his marriage
vows.[thoughtful] He dated 2 or more women prior to settlement.[report
to Jeb]
1993 settlement: Terri got $750,000 into a trust fund for her care,
while Michael got $300,000 for himself personally.
Since Terri has no will, if she dies, Michael would get the $750,000.
After the settlement money was paid out in February 1993, Michael and
the Schindlers had a big falling out. He says it occurred because
_they_ wanted the settlement money.[jeb; nurse]
Michael wanted Terri dead for the three quarters of a million dollars:
1) he ordered that Terri receive _no_ rehabilitation starting sometime
in 1993, contrary to Terri's doctor's orders.
2) Michael refused to allow antibiotics being used to treat Terri's
urinary tract infections, a decision that resulted in Terri having to go
to the hospital for urinary sepsis. Michael relented.[jeb]
3) Michael put a "do not resuscitate" order on Terri starting sometime
in 1993-- most extraordinary considering her age [nurse's testimony,
report to jeb]
4) words of his as relayed by nurses in affidavits: is she dead yet?
I'm looking forward to receiving much money.
Very probably verbal abuse behind locked door, which resulted in Terri
becoming emotionally distraught and withdrawn thereafter.
5) 5 insulin injections behind locked door [nurse's testimony]
In 1997 (i.e. 6 years after the collapse), Michael talks about
disconnecting the feeding tube (Terri can swallow and eat on her own
[jello; H], but in keeping with his cruel anti-rehabilitation-treatment
stance, Michael wouldn't let her get off the feeding tube).
Over 1 year later, in May 1998, Michael filed court papers in which he
alleges he 'remembers' that she told him she wouldn't want to be on life
support. Michael is lying:
1) inaction for 7 years
2) nurse's testimony: he spoke to me many times, and said he didn't
know what to do.[nurse]
3) 'life-support' doesn't mean 'food and water' in ordinary language
4) Michael had a motive of obtaining the $750,000 [nurse's testimony
that: he wanted the money and the $300,000 changed him]
5. Suggestive: she is Catholic, suggesting that she would avoid an
option that amounts to suicide.
Terri's parents want guardianship of Terri, but Michael won't divorce
because he wants the $700,000+: to divorce means to forego a cool
$700,000+ upon her death.
In 1998, he admits to having had 2 romantic relationships with other
women.[98 report]
As of 2005, Michael has fathered 2 children with another woman, yet he
still won't divorce Terri.
2005: Michael still wants Terri dead, even turning down $1,000,000 if
he'd only stop trying to kill her via starvation. Perhaps Michael is
afraid that Terri will receive rehabilitation and speak and implicate
him in:
physical abuse before 25 November 1990,
25 November 1990 attempted murder,
5 attempts at murder via insulin injection,
cruel verbal abuse and cruel anti-rehabilitation stance following the
February 1993 settlement payments.
Needed: chronology and summary of nurses testimony.
?: for what motivation does Michael allegedly want Terri's body after
her death, and cremation of it? To hide any potential evidence of the
broken back and neck injury, perhaps received 25 November 1990 at
Michael's hands?
?: at some point, Michael refused to let the Schindlers see Terri's
medical records. Were all the medical records released to the
Schindlers? What, if anything, was Michael hiding?
?: does Michael have a common-law marriage with the woman he fathered 2
children with? Whether yes or no, ask that be stripped of his
guardianship on the grounds of: bigamy, or adultery.
?: how did it come to be that Terri's trust fund money became used up?
Did Michael somehow gain access to the funds, and use the funds in his
legal battles with the Schindlers?
*** POSSIBLE ACTION STEPS ***
Ask Jeb Bush to file criminal charges against Michael.
Jeb Bush needs to open a criminal probe, and Terri needs to:
1) NOT be starved to death, and
2) receive the rehabilitation Michael has denied her for many years--
perhaps Terri will speak about what occurred in 1990 and implicate
Michael in attempted murder, among the other things mentioned.
Request that Michael be tossed as guardian.
Lawsuit against Michael for attempted murder for the motivations of
greed: you need your victim client to remain alive.
Seek injunction of starvation death order for the reason that it goes
against Terri's religion: as it is, the Catholic Terri is being denied
her right to receiving last rites.
Hold a press conference outlining the above scenario with documentation;
distribute documentation and scenario to the media.
Real action step
Michael Schiavo should sue you and the rest of the rumor mongers for
defamation.
Ken
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| User: "Deadrat" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
28 Mar 2005 07:57:57 PM |
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"Ken Shaw" <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message
news:XqM1e.470963$w62.138443@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
david ford wrote:
Hypothesis of What Went Down
<shamelessness snipped>
It's interesting to note how little these fanatics know or care about the
law:
Ask Jeb Bush to file criminal charges against Michael.
The person to ask is of course, the local district attorney.
But the problem here is coming up with a charge.
Jeb Bush needs to open a criminal probe, and Terri needs to:
The person to ask is, of course, the state attorney general or
an inspector general of some relevant department. But the
problem here is coming up with some law that's been broken.
1) NOT be starved to death, and
2) receive the rehabilitation Michael has denied her for many years--
perhaps Terri will speak about what occurred in 1990 and implicate
Michael in attempted murder, among the other things mentioned.
Request that Michael be tossed as guardian.
Request of whom? Been tried and denied.
Lawsuit against Michael for attempted murder for the motivations of
greed: you need your victim client to remain alive.
Of course, there is no private action for murder. Even if what is meant
is wrongful death, motivations play no part: if you've killed someone
illegally,
why you did it is irrelevant.
Seek injunction of starvation death order for the reason that it goes
against Terri's religion: as it is, the Catholic Terri is being denied
her right to receiving last rites.
Maybe the most instructive. An injuction against whom? The state
could be enjoined from interfering with a Catholic's right to practice
her religion. But Michael Schiavo couldn't.
Hold a press conference outlining the above scenario with documentation;
distribute documentation and scenario to the media.
Real action step
Michael Schiavo should sue you and the rest of the rumor mongers for
defamation.
Ken
Sorry. Although many of the allegations might be libel per se, Michael
Schiavo is probably now a public figure. The standard of actual malice
pertains, and it would be almost impossible to overcome.
Deadrat
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| User: "Nivlem" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
28 Mar 2005 10:29:22 PM |
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On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 01:57:57 GMT, "Deadrat" <none@none.non>
wrote:
"Ken Shaw" <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message
news:XqM1e.470963$w62.138443@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
david ford wrote:
Hypothesis of What Went Down
<shamelessness snipped>
It's interesting to note how little these fanatics know or care about the
law:
Ask Jeb Bush to file criminal charges against Michael.
The person to ask is of course, the local district attorney.
But the problem here is coming up with a charge.
Jeb Bush needs to open a criminal probe, and Terri needs to:
The person to ask is, of course, the state attorney general or
an inspector general of some relevant department. But the
problem here is coming up with some law that's been broken.
1) NOT be starved to death, and
2) receive the rehabilitation Michael has denied her for many years--
perhaps Terri will speak about what occurred in 1990 and implicate
Michael in attempted murder, among the other things mentioned.
Request that Michael be tossed as guardian.
Request of whom? Been tried and denied.
Lawsuit against Michael for attempted murder for the motivations of
greed: you need your victim client to remain alive.
Of course, there is no private action for murder. Even if what is meant
is wrongful death, motivations play no part: if you've killed someone
illegally,
why you did it is irrelevant.
Seek injunction of starvation death order for the reason that it goes
against Terri's religion: as it is, the Catholic Terri is being denied
her right to receiving last rites.
Maybe the most instructive. An injuction against whom? The state
could be enjoined from interfering with a Catholic's right to practice
her religion. But Michael Schiavo couldn't.
Hold a press conference outlining the above scenario with documentation;
distribute documentation and scenario to the media.
Real action step
Michael Schiavo should sue you and the rest of the rumor mongers for
defamation.
Ken
Sorry. Although many of the allegations might be libel per se, Michael
Schiavo is probably now a public figure. The standard of actual malice
pertains, and it would be almost impossible to overcome.
I don't know. Some of the ***** floating around out there is
so obviously unfounded and bizarre, I think you could prove
actual malice. Public figures have won libel cases, and for
things far less egregious than this. However, it is a
time-consuming and expensive process. Might not be worth it,
especially since people like David "the fuckwit" Ford will
continue to insist on their warped version of things, in
spite of the outcome of any number of lawsuits, and it's all
such blatant garbage that nobody halfway reasonable will buy
it in the first place.
.
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| User: "R. Tang" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
28 Mar 2005 10:47:33 PM |
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In article <5flh41lcrvu0ltj9dq51k6bt35k0d0st8f@4ax.com>,
Nivlem <mlml@svn.net> wrote:
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 01:57:57 GMT, "Deadrat" <none@none.non>
wrote:
"Ken Shaw" <none.of@your.biz> wrote in message
news:XqM1e.470963$w62.138443@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
david ford wrote:
Hypothesis of What Went Down
<shamelessness snipped>
It's interesting to note how little these fanatics know or care about the
law:
Ask Jeb Bush to file criminal charges against Michael.
The person to ask is of course, the local district attorney.
But the problem here is coming up with a charge.
Jeb Bush needs to open a criminal probe, and Terri needs to:
The person to ask is, of course, the state attorney general or
an inspector general of some relevant department. But the
problem here is coming up with some law that's been broken.
1) NOT be starved to death, and
2) receive the rehabilitation Michael has denied her for many years--
perhaps Terri will speak about what occurred in 1990 and implicate
Michael in attempted murder, among the other things mentioned.
Request that Michael be tossed as guardian.
Request of whom? Been tried and denied.
Lawsuit against Michael for attempted murder for the motivations of
greed: you need your victim client to remain alive.
Of course, there is no private action for murder. Even if what is meant
is wrongful death, motivations play no part: if you've killed someone
illegally,
why you did it is irrelevant.
Seek injunction of starvation death order for the reason that it goes
against Terri's religion: as it is, the Catholic Terri is being denied
her right to receiving last rites.
Maybe the most instructive. An injuction against whom? The state
could be enjoined from interfering with a Catholic's right to practice
her religion. But Michael Schiavo couldn't.
Hold a press conference outlining the above scenario with documentation;
distribute documentation and scenario to the media.
Real action step
Michael Schiavo should sue you and the rest of the rumor mongers for
defamation.
Ken
Sorry. Although many of the allegations might be libel per se, Michael
Schiavo is probably now a public figure. The standard of actual malice
pertains, and it would be almost impossible to overcome.
I don't know. Some of the ***** floating around out there is
so obviously unfounded and bizarre, I think you could prove
actual malice. Public figures have won libel cases, and for
things far less egregious than this. However, it is a
time-consuming and expensive process. Might not be worth it,
especially since people like David "the fuckwit" Ford will
continue to insist on their warped version of things, in
spite of the outcome of any number of lawsuits,
Which is pretty close to a textbook example of willful disregard
for the truth...
and it's all
such blatant garbage that nobody halfway reasonable will buy
it in the first place.
Yeah, but it doesn't need the half-reasonable populace for
defamation of character and libel....
--
-
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL][Yes, it IS new]
- http://www.aatrevue.com
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| User: "R. Tang" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 10:24:18 PM |
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In article <dford3-3amonmF6b3vb2U1@individual.net>,
david ford <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
December 2003 Carla Sauer Iyer, who
worked from April 1995 to 11 August 1996
where Terri was:
Terri would try to say the word "pain"
when she was in discomfort, but it came
out more like "pay". She didn't say the
"n" sound very well.
Yeah, right. And she waited seven years to say this.
No matter how many you repeat this, it STILL ain't credible. And
it won't gain credibility no matter how many times you repeat it.
--
-
-Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL][Yes, it IS new]
- http://www.aatrevue.com
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| User: "Todd A. Farmerie" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 11:27:12 PM |
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david ford wrote:
December 2003 Carla Sauer Iyer, who
worked from April 1995 to 11 August 1996
where Terri was:
Terri would try to say the word "pain"
when she was in discomfort, but it came
out more like "pay". She didn't say the
"n" sound very well.
Ref:
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3al49lF6ajhdbU1%40individual.net
On 18 March 05, Terri tried to say "I want to live," but couldn't say
the "n":
Vitadamo:
Mrs. Weller begged Terri to try to say, "I want to live."
Terri's eyes opened wide, she looked at Mrs. Weller with
great concentration and said, "Ahhhhhhh." Then, with
great effort, she screamed, "Waaaaaaaa" so loudly that....
Weller:
....she looked me square in the face, and with a look
of great concentration, she said, "Ahhhhhhh." Then,
seeming to summon up all the strength she had, she
virtually screamed, "Waaaaaaaa." She yelled so loudly
that....
Maybe she was saying, "I want to live!" Maybe she was saying, "I
want to die!" Maybe, "I want icecream." Maybe it was, "I want
my MTV" (in which case she really is brain-dead). Or, "I went
poopoo." Or, "Ah, why not leave me alone, you annoying
self-proclaimed protectors of my right to be a vegetable for
another 15 years." Maybe, it was just "Ahhhhhhh Waaaaaaaa!" The
only way they could guess what "Ahhhhhhh Waaaaaaa" meant is if
they assumed she was parroting back the words they had fed her,
which defeats their own argument that this represents a
consciously expressed desire rather than reflexive repetition.
taf
.
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|
| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 07:44:19 AM |
|
|
In our last episode <dford3-3ak2l1F6att0vU1@individual.net>, david ford
pirouetted gracefully and with great fanfare proclaimed:
The affidavit extracts below demonstrate the falsity of the old media's
erroneous allegation that 'no one is home' in Terri Schindler Schiavo.
Also, Terri can anticipate and feel pain. A U.S. judiciary run amok and a
shameless American Criminal Liberties Union are intent on murdering via
starvation an innocent/ guiltless and defenseless woman.
Decency demands that this unjustified, court-imposed death sentence on
Terri Schindler Schiavo be stopped.
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and ACLU
run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
From
http://www.hospicepatients.org/terri-schindler-schiavo-docs-links-page.html
from the PDF "Affidavit of William Cheshire, Jr., MD 03-23-05":
AFFIDAVIT
STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF DUVALL
Before me this day personally appeared William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D.,
who, being duly sworn, deposes
Except he hasn't examined her, hasn't run any tests, and hasn't been
around long. He basically went to "see" her once and watched videos.
Would you want a doctor that diagnoses you that way? No exam, no tests,
just "looks" at you?
He is, mind you, a member of "The Center for Bioethics and Culture" which
has a mission:
"...to educate and equip people of traditional Judeo-Christian faith in
bioethics issues of the 21st Century, a century already christened 'the
Biotech Century.'"
http://www.thecbc.org/redesigned/cbc_summary.html
Except, wait, they're taking *out references to the "traditional
Judeo-Christian faith" in their redesigned site:
http://www.thecbc.org/redesigned/cbc_summary.php
Isn't that interesting? That appears to have happened rather recently as
I saw the CBC reference to the JC faith in a news report about Cheshire.
Press attention made them duck maybe?
Cheshire's bio is at:
http://www.thecbc.org/redesigned/cbc_bod_cheshire.php
His MA in bioethics is from Trinty (http://www.tiu.edu/), a Christian
university.
He's also a member of the "Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity" which
is affiliated with Trinity:
http://www.tiu.edu/trinity/about/about7-cbhd.htm
Their mission statement is:
"...to bring biblical-Christian perspectives to bear on current and
emerging bioethical challenges."
Gee, you don't think maybe Cheshire has a religious agenda do you?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Group website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
.
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| User: "Stanley Friesen" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 01:02:45 PM |
|
|
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
Except he hasn't examined her, hasn't run any tests, and hasn't been
around long. He basically went to "see" her once and watched videos.
Would you want a doctor that diagnoses you that way? No exam, no tests,
just "looks" at you?
I actually terminated my relationship with a doctor partly because he
gave me a prescription just on my say-so over the phone. [In the case
my own diagnosis was in fact correct, but how did *he* know that?]
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
.
|
|
|
| User: "Glenn" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 01:43:17 PM |
|
|
"Stanley Friesen" <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in message
news:2bcb4197dl46222c3of96sfn3s2sg8ljnn@4ax.com...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
Except he hasn't examined her, hasn't run any tests, and hasn't been
around long. He basically went to "see" her once and watched videos.
Would you want a doctor that diagnoses you that way? No exam, no tests,
just "looks" at you?
Uh, YES!
Dr. Cheshire: "Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting
Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS."
He might not have been authorized to run new tests, moron. But personal
observation *is* part of neurological examination, as is review of existing
tests.
I actually terminated my relationship with a doctor partly because he
gave me a prescription just on my say-so over the phone. [In the case
my own diagnosis was in fact correct, but how did *he* know that?]
I'll bet the doctor is relieved that the moron "terminated his relationship".
Giving the idiot the benefit of the doubt, the doctor was familiar with his
patient, and only excercising a standard practice - which benefited the patient!
Or, in light of seeing this "Stanley Friesen" posting lately, maybe he should
not be given the benefit of the doubt, and what really happened might have been
that he wanted some viagra, so he went on line to a "doctor" and got some.
.
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|
|
| User: "Deadrat" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 03:14:39 PM |
|
|
"Glenn" <glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> wrote in message
news:glennsheldon-sWi1e.24$ml6.364@news.uswest.net...
"Stanley Friesen" <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in message
news:2bcb4197dl46222c3of96sfn3s2sg8ljnn@4ax.com...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
Except he hasn't examined her, hasn't run any tests, and hasn't been
around long. He basically went to "see" her once and watched videos.
Would you want a doctor that diagnoses you that way? No exam, no tests,
just "looks" at you?
Uh, YES!
Dr. Cheshire: "Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting
Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS."
He might not have been authorized to run new tests, moron. But personal
observation *is* part of neurological examination, as is review of
existing
tests.
Are you deliberately missing the point? Sure observation is part of a
neurological exam, but no competent neurologist makes a diagnosis
like this solely on the basis of observation and three year old videos.
I actually terminated my relationship with a doctor partly because he
gave me a prescription just on my say-so over the phone. [In the case
my own diagnosis was in fact correct, but how did *he* know that?]
I'll bet the doctor is relieved that the moron "terminated his
relationship".
Giving the idiot the benefit of the doubt, the doctor was familiar with
his
patient, and only excercising a standard practice - which benefited the
patient!
Or, in light of seeing this "Stanley Friesen" posting lately, maybe he
should
not be given the benefit of the doubt, and what really happened might have
been
that he wanted some viagra, so he went on line to a "doctor" and got some.
And really you are down to the best argument you have: that Stanley Friesen
is
a moron because perhaps being overly cautious, Mr. Friesen dismissed his
doctor
"partly" for prescribing medication in the absence of an exam.
Notwithstanding
the fact that Mr. Friesen is always well-informed and unfailingly polite in
his posts,
you find it necessary to speculate that Mr. Friesen suffers from some sexual
dysfunction.
Umm ....
What's wrong with you?
Deadrat
.
|
|
|
| User: "Glenn" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 04:22:52 PM |
|
|
"Deadrat" <none@none.non> wrote in message
news:3hk1e.14652$DW.7217@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
"Glenn" <glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> wrote in message
news:glennsheldon-sWi1e.24$ml6.364@news.uswest.net...
"Stanley Friesen" <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in message
news:2bcb4197dl46222c3of96sfn3s2sg8ljnn@4ax.com...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
Except he hasn't examined her, hasn't run any tests, and hasn't been
around long. He basically went to "see" her once and watched videos.
Would you want a doctor that diagnoses you that way? No exam, no tests,
just "looks" at you?
Uh, YES!
Dr. Cheshire: "Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting
Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS."
He might not have been authorized to run new tests, moron. But personal
observation *is* part of neurological examination, as is review of
existing
tests.
Are you deliberately missing the point? Sure observation is part of a
neurological exam, but no competent neurologist makes a diagnosis
like this solely on the basis of observation and three year old videos.
Of course not, but neurological examination is a very important, and critical,
element in a diagnosis. And for the third time you have ignored, and omitted (I
think, intentionally), the part where the neurologist includes "Based on my
review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's care over the years".
Terri's medical records and "care" would include prior tests, observations and
evaluations, which makes your "solely on the basis of" a misleading statement,
at best.
Snipping long posts from morons.
.
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|
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| User: "Deadrat" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 11:55:21 PM |
|
|
"Glenn" <glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> wrote in message
news:glennsheldon-1gl1e.46$ml6.599@news.uswest.net...
"Deadrat" <none@none.non> wrote in message
news:3hk1e.14652$DW.7217@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
"Glenn" <glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> wrote in message
news:glennsheldon-sWi1e.24$ml6.364@news.uswest.net...
"Stanley Friesen" <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in message
news:2bcb4197dl46222c3of96sfn3s2sg8ljnn@4ax.com...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
Except he hasn't examined her, hasn't run any tests, and hasn't
been
around long. He basically went to "see" her once and watched
videos.
Would you want a doctor that diagnoses you that way? No exam, no
tests,
just "looks" at you?
Uh, YES!
Dr. Cheshire: "Based on my review of extensive medical records
documenting
Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes
taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS."
He might not have been authorized to run new tests, moron. But
personal
observation *is* part of neurological examination, as is review of
existing
tests.
Are you deliberately missing the point? Sure observation is part of a
neurological exam, but no competent neurologist makes a diagnosis
like this solely on the basis of observation and three year old videos.
Of course not, but neurological examination is a very important, and
critical,
element in a diagnosis. And for the third time you have ignored, and
omitted (I
think, intentionally), the part where the neurologist includes "Based on
my
review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's care over the
years".
Terri's medical records and "care" would include prior tests, observations
and
evaluations, which makes your "solely on the basis of" a misleading
statement,
at best.
Sorry. I should have included his review of past records. But the point
remains.
He has made a diagnosis on TS's condition *now*, the diagnosis is at odds
with
many other opinions, and whatever contradictory things he thinks he has
found
in the records, there is also plenty of evidence to show that she doesn't
have a
cerebral cortex and hasn't for some time. Doesn't mean he's wrong, of
course.
But it does mean that the diagnosis is suspect without further, current
evidence.
Deadrat
Snipping long posts from morons.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Glenn" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
27 Mar 2005 12:21:52 AM |
|
|
"Deadrat" <none@none.non> wrote in message
news:dVr1e.11704$ZB6.7622@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
"Glenn" <glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> wrote in message
news:glennsheldon-1gl1e.46$ml6.599@news.uswest.net...
"Deadrat" <none@none.non> wrote in message
news:3hk1e.14652$DW.7217@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
"Glenn" <glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> wrote in message
news:glennsheldon-sWi1e.24$ml6.364@news.uswest.net...
"Stanley Friesen" <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in message
news:2bcb4197dl46222c3of96sfn3s2sg8ljnn@4ax.com...
"Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
Except he hasn't examined her, hasn't run any tests, and hasn't
been
around long. He basically went to "see" her once and watched
videos.
Would you want a doctor that diagnoses you that way? No exam, no
tests,
just "looks" at you?
Uh, YES!
Dr. Cheshire: "Based on my review of extensive medical records
documenting
Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes
taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS."
He might not have been authorized to run new tests, moron. But
personal
observation *is* part of neurological examination, as is review of
existing
tests.
Are you deliberately missing the point? Sure observation is part of a
neurological exam, but no competent neurologist makes a diagnosis
like this solely on the basis of observation and three year old videos.
Of course not, but neurological examination is a very important, and
critical,
element in a diagnosis. And for the third time you have ignored, and
omitted (I
think, intentionally), the part where the neurologist includes "Based on
my
review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's care over the
years".
Terri's medical records and "care" would include prior tests, observations
and
evaluations, which makes your "solely on the basis of" a misleading
statement,
at best.
Sorry. I should have included his review of past records. But the point
remains.
He has made a diagnosis on TS's condition *now*, the diagnosis is at odds
with
many other opinions, and whatever contradictory things he thinks he has
found
in the records, there is also plenty of evidence to show that she doesn't
have a
cerebral cortex and hasn't for some time. Doesn't mean he's wrong, of
course.
But it does mean that the diagnosis is suspect without further, current
evidence.
dats wot he sayd.
.
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|
|
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| User: "Hatunen" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
27 Mar 2005 03:40:55 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 05:55:21 GMT, "Deadrat" <none@none.non>
wrote:
Sorry. I should have included his review of past records. But the point
remains.
He has made a diagnosis on TS's condition *now*, the diagnosis is at odds
with
many other opinions, and whatever contradictory things he thinks he has
found
in the records, there is also plenty of evidence to show that she doesn't
have a
cerebral cortex and hasn't for some time. Doesn't mean he's wrong, of
course.
But it does mean that the diagnosis is suspect without further, current
evidence.
On CBS' Face the Nation this morning they showed Terri's brain
scan and a normal scan; it was astonishing that even on TV it was
obvious that much of Terri's brain is missing.
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
.
|
|
|
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|
| User: "Stanley Friesen" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 07:47:23 PM |
|
|
"Deadrat" <none@none.non> wrote:
And really you are down to the best argument you have: that Stanley Friesen
is
a moron because perhaps being overly cautious, Mr. Friesen dismissed his
doctor
"partly" for prescribing medication in the absence of an exam.
Notwithstanding
the fact that Mr. Friesen is always well-informed and unfailingly polite in
his posts,
you find it necessary to speculate that Mr. Friesen suffers from some sexual
dysfunction.
You know, I sort of skimmed that part of his post.
Not that I am surprised that Glenn missed the point.
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
.
|
|
|
| User: "Glenn" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 09:11:38 PM |
|
|
"Stanley Friesen" <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in message
news:gt3c419c0e35toclkcnke7rg76q8deiasr@4ax.com...
"Deadrat" <none@none.non> wrote:
And really you are down to the best argument you have: that Stanley Friesen
is
a moron because perhaps being overly cautious, Mr. Friesen dismissed his
doctor
"partly" for prescribing medication in the absence of an exam.
Nope. Friesen showed no indication of being overly cautious. Doctors routinely
prescribe medication for their patients without seeing them, and the concept in
itself is absolutely no indication that a doctor who does is a "bad man", or
deserving of being terminated.
Notwithstanding
the fact that Mr. Friesen is always well-informed and unfailingly polite in
his posts,
Sure, sure.
you find it necessary to speculate that Mr. Friesen suffers from some sexual
dysfunction.
Nope. I used viagra as an example that I thought most everyone could identify
with as a drug that can be obtained "over the phone" without a doctor's visit.
You seem to have found it necessary to use that accusation as an ad hominem.
You know, I sort of skimmed that part of his post.
Not that I am surprised that Glenn missed the point.
Now that was real "polite".
.
|
|
|
| User: "Deadrat" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
27 Mar 2005 12:26:39 AM |
|
|
"Glenn" <glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> wrote in message
news:glennsheldon-Kup1e.104$ml6.1168@news.uswest.net...
"Stanley Friesen" <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in message
news:gt3c419c0e35toclkcnke7rg76q8deiasr@4ax.com...
"Deadrat" <none@none.non> wrote:
And really you are down to the best argument you have: that Stanley
Friesen
is
a moron because perhaps being overly cautious, Mr. Friesen dismissed
his
doctor
"partly" for prescribing medication in the absence of an exam.
Nope. Friesen showed no indication of being overly cautious. Doctors
routinely
prescribe medication for their patients without seeing them, and the
concept in
itself is absolutely no indication that a doctor who does is a "bad man",
or
deserving of being terminated.
Do you read what other people write before you respond? I ask because I've
had this problem with you before. Yes, doctors routinely prescribe
medication
over the phone, and it doesn't make the doctor who does a "bad man." No one
said otherwise. It is slightly more dangerous than prescribing only after
an exam.
(Do you understand why?) Doubting his doctor's judgment (partly) based on
a practice that is only slightly more dangerous (and in his particular case,
which
led to a sound medical decision), Mr. Friesen switched doctors. That makes
him
possibly overly cautious. What don't you understand about this?
Notwithstanding
the fact that Mr. Friesen is always well-informed and unfailingly
polite in
his posts,
Sure, sure.
You disagree? How about a quote from one of Mr. Friesen's posts in
which he called you (or anyone, for that matter) any of the names you
routinely call others?
you find it necessary to speculate that Mr. Friesen suffers from some
sexual
dysfunction.
Nope. I used viagra as an example that I thought most everyone could
identify
with as a drug that can be obtained "over the phone" without a doctor's
visit.
You seem to have found it necessary to use that accusation as an ad
hominem.
Why, yes I did. Because it's a snide, sniggering, off-point suggestion.
Let me
refresh your memory:
what really happened might have been
that he wanted some viagra, so he went on line to a "doctor" and got
some.
(Oh, and note the quotes around doctor. Heh, heh. See Stan went to some
quack to get his viagra fix. Wink,wink,nudge,nudge. Say No More!)
What difference does it make what medication Mr. Friesen obtained? Viagra
is not
for those with hypertension. If that were the drug in question, the doctor
couldn't
have take a blood pressure over the phone, and that still would have
bothered
Mr. Friesen. So what?
You know, I sort of skimmed that part of his post.
Not that I am surprised that Glenn missed the point.
Now that was real "polite".
Oh, boohoo. This from a guy who can't respond to anyone who disagrees with
him without using
epithets. And you did miss the point. Again.
Deadrat
.
|
|
|
| User: "Glenn" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
27 Mar 2005 12:47:50 AM |
|
|
"Deadrat" <none@none.non> wrote in message
news:zms1e.11711$ZB6.4873@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
"Glenn" <glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> wrote in message
news:glennsheldon-Kup1e.104$ml6.1168@news.uswest.net...
"Stanley Friesen" <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in message
news:gt3c419c0e35toclkcnke7rg76q8deiasr@4ax.com...
"Deadrat" <none@none.non> wrote:
And really you are down to the best argument you have: that Stanley
Friesen
is
a moron because perhaps being overly cautious, Mr. Friesen dismissed
his
doctor
"partly" for prescribing medication in the absence of an exam.
Nope. Friesen showed no indication of being overly cautious. Doctors
routinely
prescribe medication for their patients without seeing them, and the
concept in
itself is absolutely no indication that a doctor who does is a "bad man",
or
deserving of being terminated.
Do you read what other people write before you respond? I ask because I've
had this problem with you before. Yes, doctors routinely prescribe
medication
over the phone, and it doesn't make the doctor who does a "bad man." No one
said otherwise. It is slightly more dangerous than prescribing only after
an exam.
(Do you understand why?) Doubting his doctor's judgment (partly) based on
a practice that is only slightly more dangerous (and in his particular case,
which
led to a sound medical decision), Mr. Friesen switched doctors. That makes
him
possibly overly cautious. What don't you understand about this?
Only that you apparently think that proves some point. Stanley didn't say all
this, you did. Don't you read what others write?
Notwithstanding
the fact that Mr. Friesen is always well-informed and unfailingly
polite in
his posts,
Sure, sure.
You disagree? How about a quote from one of Mr. Friesen's posts in
which he called you (or anyone, for that matter) any of the names you
routinely call others?
Ah, we are restricting insults to name calling. Duh, okay, ah dun no eny beter.
you find it necessary to speculate that Mr. Friesen suffers from some
sexual
dysfunction.
Nope. I used viagra as an example that I thought most everyone could
identify
with as a drug that can be obtained "over the phone" without a doctor's
| | | | | | | | |
