| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"david ford" |
| Date: |
25 Mar 2005 09:19:13 PM |
| Object: |
Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
The affidavit extracts below demonstrate the falsity of the old media's
erroneous allegation that 'no one is home' in Terri Schindler Schiavo.
Also, Terri can anticipate and feel pain.
A U.S. judiciary run amok and a shameless American Criminal Liberties
Union are intent on murdering via starvation an innocent/ guiltless and
defenseless woman.
Decency demands that this unjustified, court-imposed death sentence on
Terri Schindler Schiavo be stopped.
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and
ACLU run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
From
http://www.hospicepatients.org/terri-schindler-schiavo-docs-links-page.html
from the PDF "Affidavit of William Cheshire, Jr., MD 03-23-05":
AFFIDAVIT
STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF DUVALL
Before me this day personally appeared William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D.,
who, being duly sworn, deposes and says:
I, William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D., have personal knowledge of the
facts stated in this declaration and, if called as a witness, I could
and would testify competently thereto under oath. I declare as follows:
I am a neurologist practicing in the State of Florida and am certified
by the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology. In regard to my
educational background, I received an A.B. in biochemical sciences from
Princeton University, an M.A. in bioethics from Trinity International
University, and an M.D. from West Virginia University. I completed an
internship in internal medicine at West Virginia University, a residency
in neurology and a pain fellowship at the University of North Carolina.
I am also an appointed volunteer with the Florida Statewide Adult
Protective Services team, in which capacity I was called on March 1,
2005, to provide an independent and objective medical review of
allegations of possible abuse, neglect, or exploitation of Ms. Theresa
Marie Schiavo.
Although no one from the Department of Children and Families has
inquired about my personal views about treatment decisions in cases of
persistent vegetative state (PVS), I would like to disclose that I came
into this case with the belief that it can be ethically permissible to
discontinue artificially provided nutrition and hydration for patients
in a persistent vegetative state. Having now reviewed the relevant
facts, having met and observed Ms. Schiavo in person, and having
reflected deeply on the moral and ethical issues, I would like to
explain why I change my mind in regard to this particular case.
.....
Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS. These include:
1. Her behavior is frequently context-specific. For example, her
facial expression brightens and she smiles in response to the voice of
familiar persons such as her parents or her nurse. Her agitation
subsides and her facial demeanor softens when quiet music is played.
When jubilant piano music is played, her face brightens, she lifts her
eyebrows, smiles, and even laughs. Her lateral gaze toward the tape
player is sustained for many minutes. Several times I witnessed Terri
briefly, albeit inconsistently, laugh in response to a humorous comment
someone in the room had made. I did not see her laugh in the absence of
someone else's laughter.
2. Although she does not seem to track or follow visual objects
consistently or for long periods of time, she does fixate her gaze on
colorful objects or human faces for some 15 seconds at a time and
occasionally follows with her eyes at least briefly as these objects
move from side to side. When I first walked into her room, she
immediately turned her head toward me and looked directly at my face.
There was a lot of curiosity or expectation in her expression, and she
maintained eye contact for about half a minute. Later, when she again
looked at me, she brought her lips together as if to pronounce the
letter "O," and although for a moment it appeared that she might be
making an intentional effort to speak, her face then fell blank, and no
words came out.
3. Although I did not hear Terri utter distinct words, she demonstrates
emotional expressivity by her use of a single syllable of vocalizations
such as "ah," making cooing sounds, or by expressing guttural sounds of
annoyance or moaning appropriate to the context of the situation. The
context-specific range and the variability of her vocalizations suggests
at least a reasonable probability of the processing of emotional thought
within her brain. There have been reports of Terri rarely using actual
words specific to her situational context. The July 25, 2003 affidavit
of the speech pathologist Sarah Green Mole, MS, on page 6, reads, "The
records of Mediplex reflect the fact that she has said 'stop' in
apparent response to a medical procedure being done to her." The Adult
Protective Services team has been unable to retrieve those original
medical records in this instance.
4. Although Terri has not consistently followed commands, there
appeared to be some notable exceptions. In the taped examination by Dr.
Hammesfahr from 2002, when asked to close her eyes she began to blink
repeatedly. Although it was unclear whether she squeezed her grip when
asked, she did appear to raise her right leg four times in succession
each time she was asked to do so. Rehabilitation notes from 1991
indicated that she tracked inconsistently, and although she did not
develop a yes/no communication system, did follow some commands
inconsistently and demonstrated good eye contact to family members.
5. There is a remarkable moment in the videotape of the September 3,
2002 examination by Dr. Hammesfahr that seemed to go unnoticed at the
time. At 2:44 p.m., Dr. Hammesfahr had just turned Terri onto her right
side to examine her back with a painful sharp stimulus (a sharp piece of
wood), to which Terri had responded with signs of discomfort. Well
after he ceased applying the stimulus and had returned Terri to a
comfortable position, he says to her parents, "So, we're going to have
to roll her over...." Immediately Terri cries. She vocalizes a crying
sound, "Ugh, ha, ha, ha," presses her eyebrows together, and sadly
grimaces. It is important to note that, at that moment, no one is
touching Terri or causing actual pain. Rather, she appears to
comprehend the meaning of Dr. Hammesfahr's comment and she signals her
_anticipation_ of pain. This response suggests some degree of language
processing and interpretation at the level of the cerebral cortex. It
also suggests that she may be aware of pain beyond what could be
explained by simple reflex withdrawal.
6. According to the definition of PVS published by the American Academy
of Neurology, "persistent vegetative state patients do not have the
capacity to experience pain or suffering. Pain and suffering are
attributes of consciousness requiring cerebral cortical functioning, and
patients who are permanently and completely unconscious cannot
experience these symptoms."^6 And yet, in my review of Terri's medical
records, pain issues keep surfacing. The nurses at Woodside Hospice
told us that she often has pain with menstrual cramps. Menstrual flow
is associated with agitation, repeated or sustained moaning, facial
grimacing, limb posturing, and facial flushing, all of which subside
once she is given ibuprofen. Some of the records document moaning,
crying, and other painful behavior in the setting of urinary tract
infections.
.....
7. To enter the room of Terri Schiavo is nothing like entering the room
of a patient who is comatose or brain-dead or in some neurological sense
no longer there. Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90
minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness,
or volitional behavior, yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the
presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of
some things around her.
As I looked at Terri, and she gazed directly back at me, I asked myself
whether, if I were her attending physician, I could in good conscience
withdraw nutrition and hydration. No, I could not. I could not
withdraw life support if I were asked. I could not withhold
life-sustaining nutrition and hydration from this beautiful lady whose
face brightens in the presence of others.
The neurologic signs are in many ways ambiguous. There is no guarantee
that more sophisticated testing would definitively resolve that
ambiguity to everyone's satisfaction. There would be value, I think, in
obtaining a functional MRI scan if that is possible.
This situation differs fundamentally from end-of-life scenarios where it
is appropriate to withdraw life-sustaining medical interventions that no
longer benefit or are burdensome to patients in the terminal stages of
illness. Terri's feeding tube is not a burden to her. It is not
painful, is not infected, is not eroding her stomach lining or causing
any medical complications. But for the decision to withdraw her feeding
tube, Terri cannot be considered medically terminal. But for the
withdrawal of food and water, she would not die [well, she would not die
now-- everybody dies eventually, sometimes sooner rather than later. We
never know when we will go to meet our Maker. -df].
In summary, Terri [Schindler] Schiavo demonstrates behaviors in a
variety of cognitive domains that call into question the previous
neurologic diagnosis of persistent vegetative state. Specifically, she
has demonstrated behaviors that are context-specific, sustained, and
indicative of a cerebral cortical processing that, upon careful
neurologic consideration, would not be expected in a persistent
vegetative state.
Based on this evidence, I believe that, within a reasonable degree of
medical certainty, there is a greater likelihood that Terri is in a
minimally conscious state than a persistent vegetative state. This
distinction makes an enormous difference in making ethical decisions on
Terri's behalf. If Terri is sufficiently aware of her surroundings that
she can feel pleasure and suffer, if she is capable of understanding to
some degree how she is being treated, then in my judgment it would be
wrong to bring about her death by withdrawing food and water.
At the time of this writing, Terri Schiavo, as the result of the
decisions based on what I have argued to be a faulty diagnosis of
persistent vegetative state, has been without food or water for 5 days.
She is thus at risk of death or serious injury unless the provision of
food and water can be restored. Terri Schiavo lacks the capacity to
consent to emergency protective services and must trust others to act on
her behalf. If she were to be transferred to another facility, it would
be medically necessary first to initiate hydration and ensure that her
serum electrolytes are within normal values.
How medicine and society choose to think about Terri [Schindler] Schiavo
will influence what kind of people we will be as we evaluate and respond
to the needs of the most vulnerable people among us. When serious
doubts exist as to whether a cognitively impaired person is or is not
consciously aware, even if these doubts cannot be conclusively resolved,
it is better to err on the side of protecting vulnerable life.
Respectfully submitted,
William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D., M.A., F.A.A.N.
[signature]
Sworn to (or affirmed) and subscribed before me this 23[rd] day of
March, 2005, by William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D.
[notary stamp and signature]
======================================================================
articles: livelier ones are by Thomas Sowell and William Kristol. Eric
Cohen's is very thoughtful.
http://www.townhall.com
Cal Thomas: Schiavo case matters in symbol and substance
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adfseF68nkocU1%40individual.net
Justifications for taking of human life?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aj33dF67kgcuU2%40individual.net
any atheists against Terri Schindler Schiavo's being starved to death?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adrlvF69l60hU1%40individual.net
1997 Wesley Smith on Germany's slippery slope slide from devaluing some
human life to a little euthanasia/ killing to mass killings
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3abe1cF6ac7t2U1%40individual.net
ACLU: Legal Terrorists
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/11/27/195402.shtml
Terri Schindler Schiavo Case
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/10/16/223430.shtml
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43463
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and
ACLU run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
.
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| User: "Jim Lovejoy" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 02:21:00 PM |
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Stanley Friesen <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in
news:dubb41pmejb48i7olgkaukinc07n2j00pq@4ax.com:
raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:58:10 -0700, "Glenn"
<glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> wrote:
So what? You might not have read anything about the case.
Then why would I be posting about it? Are you really this dense? Or do
you just assume that others follow your M.O.?
However, contradictory
testimony exists.
Not from any of the doctors who actually treated or examined her in
person.
I have not read a great deal, but I did read the ad litum report.
That, combined with my own knowledge of neurobiology convinced me that
she was not longer actually present. [Because humans are adept at
imputing meaning to the activities of others, it is also
understandable that her parents see in her instinctive reactions the
remnants of a personality - but that is just an illusion engendered by
our psychology].
and does not address
the issue of starving her to death. Was she aware at the time she
supposedly gave notice to those witnesses, how she may die? Would she
have said, remove the tubes but try to feed me, or shoot me in the
head, or what.
A moot question at best. Every court that has considered the question
has agreed that she had expressed that she did not want to be kept
alive in such a state, and it is established as a matter of fact that
her cerebral cortex is no longer extant. There's no "her" there any
more, however much anyone (including myself) might wish otherwise.
No one is celebrating her impending death, but realistically, Terri
Schiavo "died" fifteen years ago; what's been kept alive since then is
her body.
I would not even put the "died" in scare quotes. *She* died fifteen
years ago. Only her body has lived on.
I have long contended that 'creationists' have no faith, because they
*need* their religious beliefs to be scientifically supported. But the
Terri Shaivo case surprises even me.
The religious right, and our own pet creationists, look at a woman whose
brain no longer allows her to talk, pray, or think, and instead of saying
"let her go home to the Lord" say instead "She must be kept alive by
artificial means."
But then, why am I surprised? They have already revealed themselves to be
liars and hypocrites.
Maybe there is some rationale for their actions. Maybe they know in some
corner of their being that *they* are in no fit state to meet their maker,
and project that onto people, like Terri Shaivo, who as far as I know,
never committed their sins of 'bearing false witness for the Lord'.
.
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| User: "Glenn" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 02:51:31 PM |
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"Jim Lovejoy" <nospam@devnull.spam> wrote in message
news:9e-dnf7MwsOxWdjfRVn-2Q@nventure.com...
Stanley Friesen <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in
news:dubb41pmejb48i7olgkaukinc07n2j00pq@4ax.com:
raven1 <quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 22:58:10 -0700, "Glenn"
<glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> wrote:
So what? You might not have read anything about the case.
Then why would I be posting about it? Are you really this dense? Or do
you just assume that others follow your M.O.?
However, contradictory
testimony exists.
Not from any of the doctors who actually treated or examined her in
person.
I have not read a great deal, but I did read the ad litum report.
That, combined with my own knowledge of neurobiology convinced me that
she was not longer actually present. [Because humans are adept at
imputing meaning to the activities of others, it is also
understandable that her parents see in her instinctive reactions the
remnants of a personality - but that is just an illusion engendered by
our psychology].
and does not address
the issue of starving her to death. Was she aware at the time she
supposedly gave notice to those witnesses, how she may die? Would she
have said, remove the tubes but try to feed me, or shoot me in the
head, or what.
A moot question at best. Every court that has considered the question
has agreed that she had expressed that she did not want to be kept
alive in such a state, and it is established as a matter of fact that
her cerebral cortex is no longer extant. There's no "her" there any
more, however much anyone (including myself) might wish otherwise.
No one is celebrating her impending death, but realistically, Terri
Schiavo "died" fifteen years ago; what's been kept alive since then is
her body.
I would not even put the "died" in scare quotes. *She* died fifteen
years ago. Only her body has lived on.
I have long contended that 'creationists' have no faith, because they
*need* their religious beliefs to be scientifically supported. But the
Terri Shaivo case surprises even me.
No it doesn't, you're braindead and sick.
The religious right, and our own pet creationists, look at a woman whose
brain no longer allows her to talk, pray, or think, and instead of saying
"let her go home to the Lord" say instead "She must be kept alive by
artificial means."
And a liar.
But then, why am I surprised? They have already revealed themselves to be
liars and hypocrites.
Then you're a creationist, because you're a liar and a hypocrite.
Maybe there is some rationale for their actions.
Probably varies, but big ones are compassion and hope for Terri.
Maybe they know in some
corner of their being that *they* are in no fit state to meet their maker,
In every corner.
and project that onto people, like Terri Shaivo,
Not at all. Terri will not get any "fitter". Sheesh, I'm responding to a
lunatic.
who as far as I know,
never committed their sins of 'bearing false witness for the Lord'.
You don't even make sense. You're a typical mad dog atheist.
.
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| User: "Jim Lovejoy" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
27 Mar 2005 04:31:21 PM |
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"Glenn" <glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> wrote in
news:glennsheldon-pWj1e.33$ml6.612@news.uswest.net:
"Jim Lovejoy" <nospam@devnull.spam> wrote in message
news:9e-dnf7MwsOxWdjfRVn-2Q@nventure.com...
Stanley Friesen <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in
news:dubb41pmejb48i7olgkaukinc07n2j00pq@4ax.com:
snip<
I would not even put the "died" in scare quotes. *She* died
fifteen years ago. Only her body has lived on.
I have long contended that 'creationists' have no faith, because they
*need* their religious beliefs to be scientifically supported. But
the Terri Shaivo case surprises even me.
No it doesn't, you're braindead and sick.
Don't quit your day job. You suck as a mind reader.
The religious right, and our own pet creationists, look at a woman
whose brain no longer allows her to talk, pray, or think, and instead
of saying "let her go home to the Lord" say instead "She must be kept
alive by artificial means."
And a liar.
You're correct there. Those of the religious right who are arguing to keep
Terri alive are liars.
But then, why am I surprised? They have already revealed themselves
to be liars and hypocrites.
Then you're a creationist, because you're a liar and a hypocrite.
Since I've noted your history of responging with insults when you have no
substantive answer, I'll take that as acknowledgement that I'm correct.
Maybe there is some rationale for their actions.
Probably varies, but big ones are compassion and hope for Terri.
From the politicians, and the leaders of the right-to-life movements, the
big ones seem to be making political hay from a family tragedy.
As mentioned elsewhere 'Terri is dead, only her body lives on.
Maybe they know in some
corner of their being that *they* are in no fit state to meet their
maker,
In every corner.
and project that onto people, like Terri Shaivo,
Not at all. Terri will not get any "fitter". Sheesh, I'm responding to
a lunatic.
who as far as I know,
never committed their sins of 'bearing false witness for the Lord'.
You don't even make sense. You're a typical mad dog atheist.
If you were even minimally right, it would be 'mad dog Christian' but don't
let the facts get in your way.
.
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| User: "Glenn" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
27 Mar 2005 05:11:53 PM |
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"Jim Lovejoy" <nospam@devnull.spam> wrote in message
news:DO6dnWV3f8CkqdrfRVn-jg@nventure.com...
"Glenn" <glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> wrote in
news:glennsheldon-pWj1e.33$ml6.612@news.uswest.net:
"Jim Lovejoy" <nospam@devnull.spam> wrote in message
news:9e-dnf7MwsOxWdjfRVn-2Q@nventure.com...
Stanley Friesen <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in
news:dubb41pmejb48i7olgkaukinc07n2j00pq@4ax.com:
snip<
I would not even put the "died" in scare quotes. *She* died
fifteen years ago. Only her body has lived on.
I have long contended that 'creationists' have no faith, because they
*need* their religious beliefs to be scientifically supported. But
the Terri Shaivo case surprises even me.
No it doesn't, you're braindead and sick.
Don't quit your day job. You suck as a mind reader.
I suck at reading my own mind? You must be *gooood* at what _you_ do. LOL!
The religious right, and our own pet creationists, look at a woman
whose brain no longer allows her to talk, pray, or think, and instead
of saying "let her go home to the Lord" say instead "She must be kept
alive by artificial means."
And a liar.
You're correct there. Those of the religious right who are arguing to keep
Terri alive are liars.
Let me get this straight. You admit that I am correct that you are a liar, and
the religious right who are arguing to keep Terri alive are liars. But you admit
to being a liar, so there is no reason to assume what you claim about
"creationists" is right. Right?
Jimbo, I could be considered a "pet creationist", and you are wrong about what
you claim I therefore think about Terri. You have absolutely no reason or
evidence to generalize about the religious right that way, and neither you nor
your mad dog atheist buds have provided any evidence to support that claim. Many
people believed that Terri was not in as bad a shape as some claimed, and hoped
that if given a chance she could make some partial recovery. Many feel that it
were not her wishes that she be disconnected from life support. I bet you'd have
a problem with that. In any case, you're a liar.And you're easy to spot.
Claiming that they have no faith because they do not agree with you does not
give you the right to accuse anyone of a certain displaced belief such as "She
must be kept alive by artificial means." as if at all costs and no matter what
condition. If you did not imply "at all costs and no matter what condition" ,
then you have absolutely no argument to make, other than some disagreement on
medical condition. But that is clearly not what you mean, nor what you intimate.
But then, why am I surprised? They have already revealed themselves
to be liars and hypocrites.
Then you're a creationist, because you're a liar and a hypocrite.
Since I've noted your history of responging with insults when you have no
substantive answer, I'll take that as acknowledgement that I'm correct.
So an acknowldgement would constitute a substantive answer, eh. You can take
your little toys and shove yourself down a tailpipe for all I care, you're a
disgusting person.
Maybe there is some rationale for their actions.
Probably varies, but big ones are compassion and hope for Terri.
From the politicians, and the leaders of the right-to-life movements, the
big ones seem to be making political hay from a family tragedy.
As mentioned elsewhere 'Terri is dead, only her body lives on.
As mentioned elsewhere, there is contradictory testimony concerning every issue
in the case. You're an ***** to attribute the attempts to protect Terri at the
expense of a family tragedy.
Maybe they know in some
corner of their being that *they* are in no fit state to meet their
maker,
In every corner.
and project that onto people, like Terri Shaivo,
Not at all. Terri will not get any "fitter". Sheesh, I'm responding to
a lunatic.
who as far as I know,
never committed their sins of 'bearing false witness for the Lord'.
You don't even make sense. You're a typical mad dog atheist.
If you were even minimally right, it would be 'mad dog Christian' but don't
let the facts get in your way.
Mad dog wolf more likely. That you claim being a Christian does not make it a
fact that you are a Christian. You show the behavior of those who sneak into
churches to disrupt them on the pretense of being Christian.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
30 Mar 2005 02:06:13 PM |
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Glenn wrote:
You don't even make sense. You're a typical mad dog atheist.
Now I know what I want on my next t-shirt. Thanks, Glenn!
Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
.
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| User: "John S. Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
30 Mar 2005 07:14:27 PM |
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wrote:
Glenn wrote:
You don't even make sense. You're a typical mad dog atheist.
Now I know what I want on my next t-shirt. Thanks, Glenn!
Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
If you can get them done in bulk, I want one...
--
John S. Wilkins
Postdoctoral Research Fellow
Biohumanities Project
School of History, Philosophy, Religion and Classics
The University of Queensland
Brisbane, QLD 4072, Australia
Tel +61 7 3365 6348
Mobile 0418 543 856
.
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| User: "Robin Levett" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
31 Mar 2005 01:21:32 AM |
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John S. Wilkins wrote:
firelock_ny@hotmail.com wrote:
Glenn wrote:
You don't even make sense. You're a typical mad dog atheist.
Now I know what I want on my next t-shirt. Thanks, Glenn!
Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
If you can get them done in bulk, I want one...
Are you sure you can know that, John?
--
Robin Levett
rlevett@rlevett.ibmuklunix.net (unmunge by removing big blue - don't yahoo)
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| User: "John S. Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
31 Mar 2005 05:50:53 PM |
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Robin Levett wrote:
John S. Wilkins wrote:
firelock_ny@hotmail.com wrote:
Glenn wrote:
You don't even make sense. You're a typical mad dog atheist.
Now I know what I want on my next t-shirt. Thanks, Glenn!
Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
If you can get them done in bulk, I want one...
Are you sure you can know that, John?
I know that I am in pain.
--
John S. Wilkins
Postdoctoral Research Fellow
Biohumanities Project
School of History, Philosophy, Religion and Classics
The University of Queensland
Brisbane, QLD 4072, Australia
Tel +61 7 3365 6348
Mobile 0418 543 856
.
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| User: "Mark VandeWettering" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
27 Mar 2005 12:39:51 AM |
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["Followup-To:" header set to talk.origins.]
On 2005-03-26, Glenn <glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> wrote:
But then, why am I surprised? They have already revealed themselves to be
liars and hypocrites.
Then you're a creationist, because you're a liar and a hypocrite.
:-)
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| User: "Stanley Friesen" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 07:42:27 PM |
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Jim Lovejoy <nospam@devnull.spam> wrote:
I have long contended that 'creationists' have no faith, because they
*need* their religious beliefs to be scientifically supported. But the
Terri Shaivo case surprises even me.
The religious right, and our own pet creationists, look at a woman whose
brain no longer allows her to talk, pray, or think, and instead of saying
"let her go home to the Lord" say instead "She must be kept alive by
artificial means."
I would say she has *already* gone home to her Lord - 15 years ago.
What is left is an empty hull.
But then, why am I surprised? They have already revealed themselves to be
liars and hypocrites.
Maybe there is some rationale for their actions. Maybe they know in some
corner of their being that *they* are in no fit state to meet their maker,
and project that onto people, like Terri Shaivo, who as far as I know,
never committed their sins of 'bearing false witness for the Lord'.
Those of us who are *honest* with ourselves all realize we are in no fit
shape to meet our maker. It is only by grace that we can qualify.
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
.
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| User: "Jim Lovejoy" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
27 Mar 2005 04:23:52 PM |
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Stanley Friesen <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in
news:um3c41pblil33nilv26499s4vlfd5okd1d@4ax.com:
Jim Lovejoy <nospam@devnull.spam> wrote:
(snipping all but two points)
The religious right, and our own pet creationists, look at a woman
whose brain no longer allows her to talk, pray, or think, and instead
of saying "let her go home to the Lord" say instead "She must be kept
alive by artificial means."
I would say she has *already* gone home to her Lord - 15 years ago.
What is left is an empty hull.
I hope that you're correct. If I knew that I would feel better.
But then, why am I surprised? They have already revealed themselves
to be liars and hypocrites.
Maybe there is some rationale for their actions. Maybe they know in
some corner of their being that *they* are in no fit state to meet
their maker, and project that onto people, like Terri Shaivo, who as
far as I know, never committed their sins of 'bearing false witness
for the Lord'.
Those of us who are *honest* with ourselves all realize we are in no
fit shape to meet our maker. It is only by grace that we can qualify.
True. I recognize that as far as that goes I'm in no better condition than
them, even though I probably came off as self-righteous in that last
paragraph.
.
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| User: "Glenn" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
27 Mar 2005 05:14:30 PM |
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"Jim Lovejoy" <nospam@devnull.spam> wrote in message
news:YY6dndnxMujlr9rfRVn-hw@nventure.com...
Stanley Friesen <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in
news:um3c41pblil33nilv26499s4vlfd5okd1d@4ax.com:
Jim Lovejoy <nospam@devnull.spam> wrote:
(snipping all but two points)
The religious right, and our own pet creationists, look at a woman
whose brain no longer allows her to talk, pray, or think, and instead
of saying "let her go home to the Lord" say instead "She must be kept
alive by artificial means."
I would say she has *already* gone home to her Lord - 15 years ago.
What is left is an empty hull.
I hope that you're correct. If I knew that I would feel better.
Good God. You don't know that, but you demean others who say "She must be kept
alive"?? Perhaps you're bipolar?
.
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| User: "Stanley Friesen" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
28 Mar 2005 08:51:58 AM |
|
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Jim Lovejoy <nospam@devnull.spam> wrote:
Stanley Friesen <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in
news:um3c41pblil33nilv26499s4vlfd5okd1d@4ax.com:
Jim Lovejoy <nospam@devnull.spam> wrote:
(snipping all but two points)
The religious right, and our own pet creationists, look at a woman
whose brain no longer allows her to talk, pray, or think, and instead
of saying "let her go home to the Lord" say instead "She must be kept
alive by artificial means."
I would say she has *already* gone home to her Lord - 15 years ago.
What is left is an empty hull.
I hope that you're correct. If I knew that I would feel better.
It is true I am drawing a conclusion on the basis of the idea that God
is merciful, combined with the fact that all that we humans would have
called the *person* has been gone for a long time.
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
.
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| User: "Glenn" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
28 Mar 2005 01:05:19 PM |
|
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"Stanley Friesen" <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in message
news:kd6g41d0sn87o7hb5dmr3vmba6bbc8s6hl@4ax.com...
Jim Lovejoy <nospam@devnull.spam> wrote:
Stanley Friesen <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in
news:um3c41pblil33nilv26499s4vlfd5okd1d@4ax.com:
Jim Lovejoy <nospam@devnull.spam> wrote:
(snipping all but two points)
The religious right, and our own pet creationists, look at a woman
whose brain no longer allows her to talk, pray, or think, and
instead
of saying "let her go home to the Lord" say instead "She must be
kept
alive by artificial means."
I would say she has *already* gone home to her Lord - 15 years ago.
What is left is an empty hull.
I hope that you're correct. If I knew that I would feel better.
It is true I am drawing a conclusion on the basis of the idea that God
is merciful, combined with the fact that all that we humans would have
called the *person* has been gone for a long time.
And you'd probably tell that to Terri's family and friends and all the
doctors who disagree with that in person, as well, wouldn't you. You
*are*.
.
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| User: "Stanley Friesen" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
29 Mar 2005 08:43:13 AM |
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"Glenn" <glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> wrote:
It is true I am drawing a conclusion on the basis of the idea that God
is merciful, combined with the fact that all that we humans would have
called the *person* has been gone for a long time.
And you'd probably tell that to Terri's family and friends and all the
doctors who disagree with that in person, as well, wouldn't you. You
*are*.
Her family, yes. They need to face the fact she is gone, mourn her
loss, and accept it. All of this mess is largely due to their refusal
to accept the truth - that she is long since gone.
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
.
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| User: "rich hammett" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
28 Mar 2005 03:02:57 PM |
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In talk.origins Glenn <glennsheldon@spamqwest.net> sanoi, hitaasti kuin hämähäkki:
"Stanley Friesen" <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in message
news:kd6g41d0sn87o7hb5dmr3vmba6bbc8s6hl@4ax.com...
Jim Lovejoy <nospam@devnull.spam> wrote:
Stanley Friesen <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in
news:um3c41pblil33nilv26499s4vlfd5okd1d@4ax.com:
Jim Lovejoy <nospam@devnull.spam> wrote:
(snipping all but two points)
The religious right, and our own pet creationists, look at a woman
whose brain no longer allows her to talk, pray, or think, and
instead
of saying "let her go home to the Lord" say instead "She must be
kept
alive by artificial means."
I would say she has *already* gone home to her Lord - 15 years ago.
What is left is an empty hull.
I hope that you're correct. If I knew that I would feel better.
It is true I am drawing a conclusion on the basis of the idea that God
is merciful, combined with the fact that all that we humans would have
called the *person* has been gone for a long time.
And you'd probably tell that to Terri's family and friends and all the
doctors who disagree with that in person, as well, wouldn't you. You
*are*.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151662,00.html
Read, and try to understand. I know it's from the liberal
mainstream media, but read it anyway.
rich
--
-to reply, it's hot not warm
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world;
\ than the pride that divides
/ when a colorful rag is unfurled."
.
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| User: "Glenn" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
28 Mar 2005 03:39:32 PM |
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|
"rich hammett" <bubbarichau@warmmail.com> wrote in message
news:114gs81lq1k4if0@corp.supernews.com...
In talk.origins Glenn <glennsheldon@spamqwest.net> sanoi, hitaasti
kuin hämähäkki:
"Stanley Friesen" <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in message
news:kd6g41d0sn87o7hb5dmr3vmba6bbc8s6hl@4ax.com...
Jim Lovejoy <nospam@devnull.spam> wrote:
Stanley Friesen <sarima@friesen.net> wrote in
news:um3c41pblil33nilv26499s4vlfd5okd1d@4ax.com:
Jim Lovejoy <nospam@devnull.spam> wrote:
(snipping all but two points)
The religious right, and our own pet creationists, look at a
woman
whose brain no longer allows her to talk, pray, or think, and
instead
of saying "let her go home to the Lord" say instead "She must be
kept
alive by artificial means."
I would say she has *already* gone home to her Lord - 15 years
ago.
What is left is an empty hull.
I hope that you're correct. If I knew that I would feel better.
It is true I am drawing a conclusion on the basis of the idea that
God
is merciful, combined with the fact that all that we humans would
have
called the *person* has been gone for a long time.
And you'd probably tell that to Terri's family and friends and all
the
doctors who disagree with that in person, as well, wouldn't you. You
*are*.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151662,00.html
Read, and try to understand. I know it's from the liberal
mainstream media, but read it anyway.
Why, because another idiot asks me to? Fox isn't liberal, sarcastic
twit.
I've tried foxnews online before, and it loads so slowly or doesn't load
at all for some reason, that my browser shows only the blue webpage.
It's the only site I have had problems with, and as it doesn't matter to
me, it isn't a problem. But I did try it again just now, with the same
result. It appears to download, and stops downloading activity, even
after two minutes. My security and other settings do not appear to be
the problem. But like I said, it doesn't matter to me.
If you have something to say, say it. I'm sure that whatever slant you
wished to put on it, you could find some news blog that would appear to
support your position.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
28 Mar 2005 03:52:25 PM |
|
|
In article <glennsheldon-lP_1e.35$Gg2.593@news.uswest.net> "Glenn" <glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> writes:
"rich hammett" <bubbarichau@warmmail.com> wrote in message
news:114gs81lq1k4if0@corp.supernews.com...
{...}
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151662,00.html
Read, and try to understand. I know it's from the liberal
mainstream media, but read it anyway.
Why, because another idiot asks me to? Fox isn't liberal, sarcastic
twit.
I've tried foxnews online before, and it loads so slowly or doesn't load
at all for some reason, that my browser shows only the blue webpage.
It's the only site I have had problems with, and as it doesn't matter to
me, it isn't a problem. But I did try it again just now, with the same
result. It appears to download, and stops downloading activity, even
after two minutes. My security and other settings do not appear to be
the problem. But like I said, it doesn't matter to me.
If you have something to say, say it. I'm sure that whatever slant you
wished to put on it, you could find some news blog that would appear to
support your position.
Here ya go:
Docs: Schiavo Videos Misleading
Monday, March 28, 2005
PINELLAS PARK, Fla. ? They say film doesn't lie, but does that mean it
tells the truth?
The public sees fleeting videotaped images of Terri Schiavo (search
<javascript:siteSearch('Terri Schiavo');>), appearing to many to turn
toward her mother's voice and smile. They hear what sound like moans and
laughter. They watch her head move up and down, seemingly following the
progress of a brightly colored Mickey Mouse balloon. And often they ask:
How could anyone conclude but that she is aware of her surroundings?
The answer lies not so much within Schiavo's brain as in the minds of
those who observe her.
As social beings, humans are hard-wired to examine another's face for
clues to what the person behind it is thinking. They naturally associate
vocal tones with specific moods. They detect meaningful words in
nonsense utterances.
"I can understand that, because I have examined scores, if not hundreds,
of people with this condition," says Dr. Leon Prockop, a professor of
neurology at the University of South Florida (search
<javascript:siteSearch('University of South Florida');>), who has
reviewed the brain-damaged woman's CAT scans.
At first, he says, his "natural emotional desire to be optimistic and
hopeful" made him interpret movements and facial expressions as
purposeful. But after long experience, Prockop says, "I came to realize
that my emotional reaction was understandable as a human being, but was
not an intellectual assessment."
The public has seen only a tiny portion of the more than four hours of
videotape shot during the past seven years of litigation over whether to
keep the 41-year-old woman on a feeding tube.
Even doctors who have agreed that she is in a persistent vegetative
state have admitted to being swayed, if only briefly, by the now
familiar images that have been played and replayed on national television.
During testimony in a 2002 hearing, court-appointed neurologist Peter
Bambakidis acknowledged that seeing the videotapes of Schiavo's mother
kissing and speaking with her gave him pause at first.
"Yes, that was a source of the concern on my part: How does one
interpret a situation like that?" he said. He even acknowledged that she
did track a Mickey Mouse balloon with her eyes in one clip.
"I was concerned as to whether or not there may have been some minimal
consciousness there," he testified.
But Bambakidis noted that such visual tracking "commonly occurs
spontaneously in people in a persistent vegetative state." After
reviewing her brain scans and visiting with her, he came to the
conclusion that she had no hope of recovery.
Dr. James Barnhill, a neurologist hired by Michael Schiavo, the husband
who has fought through the courts to honor what he says would have been
his wife's wishes, reviewed the videotapes and came to a similar conclusion.
Barnhill has said Terri Schiavo engaged in "pathological laughter,
pathological crying ... consistent with the vocalizations that are seen
in people with persistent vegetative states. I see nothing on that tape
that indicates an awareness there or consciousness."
William Hammesfahr (search <javascript:siteSearch('William
Hammesfahr');>), a neurologist hired by Terri Schiavo's parents, looks
at the same tape and sees a woman who is clearly reacting to her mother,
turning toward her voice, smiling and appearing to sing when she hears
familiar piano music.
"She is absolutely responding to her mother," he testified. "There's no
doubt."
To understand the emotional reaction to the tapes of Terri Schiavo, one
need only spend a few minutes with Kismet.
People who spend time with the robot at a Massachusetts Institute of
Technology (search <javascript:siteSearch('Massachusetts Institute of
Technology');>) lab walk away feeling like they've made a new friend.
Kismet is nothing but a mechanical head made out of metal and plastic,
but it has been cleverly programmed by scientists to mimic human social
interactions.
Sit down across from Kismet and it gives you a pleasant smile. Step too
close and it jumps back with a startled expression on its face.
Introduce yourself and it waits patiently for you to finish talking,
then replies with a few syllables of speech that sounds like a
higher-pitched version of the language spoken by the teachers in
'Charlie Brown' cartoons.
Kismet is no more conscious than a dishwasher or a microwave oven. But
its vaguely human behavior has a powerful effect on brains that are
predisposed to attach meaning to gesture, facial expression and vocal tone.
"This ... system that we have is so automatic and so powerful, sometimes
it ends up being triggered by things that aren't people and don't have
minds at all," said Martha J. Farah, a psychologist at the University of
Pennsylvania. "It's very hard to suppress the impression that there's
somebody there."
People in persistent vegetative states are no more aware than Kismet,
but they retain a handful of primitive reflexes that are naturally
misinterpreted as conscious behavior.
"The mere noise of walking will make the eyes flicker," said Lawrence J.
Schneiderman, a professor at the University of California, San Diego
(search <javascript:siteSearch('University of California, San Diego');>)
medical school who specializes in the bioethics of medical futility and
end-of-life care. "And there may be a grimace, so the relatives will
say, 'Oh, she's happy to see me.'"
But all of those apparent signs of awareness are the product of a brain
so damaged that by medical definition it has no capability of thought,
no sensory awareness, no sense of its own existence in the world.
In Schiavo's condition, only the most primitive part of the brain
survives. That region, known as the brain stem, merely sustains the
vital functions of breathing, heart rate, sleep-wake cycles and
primitive reflexes such as coughing and blinking.
"I think the term should be permanent unconsciousness," Schneiderman said.
Prockop prefers the phrase "coma vigil."
"If you put your finger in their hand, they reflexively grasp it," he
says. "The analogy can be made to infancy."
But while a newborn's frontal lobes are present but undeveloped,
Schiavo's frontal lobes are damaged beyond repair, Prockop says.
Prockop says the video clips he's seen are consistent with a diagnosis
of coma vigil. But he cautions that he would not use them to make a
diagnosis.
"You can't take these clips out of the context of examining the
individual and seeing a long monitoring film," he says. "They don't give
you enough information."
.
|
|
|
| User: "Glenn" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
28 Mar 2005 05:17:11 PM |
|
|
"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:d29uap$hu1$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
In article <glennsheldon-lP_1e.35$Gg2.593@news.uswest.net> "Glenn"
<glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> writes:
"rich hammett" <bubbarichau@warmmail.com> wrote in message
news:114gs81lq1k4if0@corp.supernews.com...
{...}
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151662,00.html
Read, and try to understand. I know it's from the liberal
mainstream media, but read it anyway.
Why, because another idiot asks me to? Fox isn't liberal, sarcastic
twit.
I've tried foxnews online before, and it loads so slowly or doesn't
load
at all for some reason, that my browser shows only the blue webpage.
It's the only site I have had problems with, and as it doesn't
matter to
me, it isn't a problem. But I did try it again just now, with the
same
result. It appears to download, and stops downloading activity, even
after two minutes. My security and other settings do not appear to
be
the problem. But like I said, it doesn't matter to me.
If you have something to say, say it. I'm sure that whatever slant
you
wished to put on it, you could find some news blog that would appear
to
support your position.
Here ya go:
Docs: Schiavo Videos Misleading
Monday, March 28, 2005
PINELLAS PARK, Fla. ? They say film doesn't lie, but does that mean
it
tells the truth?
The public sees fleeting videotaped images of Terri Schiavo (search
<javascript:siteSearch('Terri Schiavo');>), appearing to many to turn
toward her mother's voice and smile. They hear what sound like moans
and
laughter. They watch her head move up and down, seemingly following
the
progress of a brightly colored Mickey Mouse balloon. And often they
ask:
How could anyone conclude but that she is aware of her surroundings?
The answer lies not so much within Schiavo's brain as in the minds of
those who observe her.
As social beings, humans are hard-wired to examine another's face for
clues to what the person behind it is thinking. They naturally
associate
vocal tones with specific moods. They detect meaningful words in
nonsense utterances.
"I can understand that, because I have examined scores, if not
hundreds,
of people with this condition," says Dr. Leon Prockop, a professor of
neurology at the University of South Florida (search
<javascript:siteSearch('University of South Florida');>), who has
reviewed the brain-damaged woman's CAT scans.
At first, he says, his "natural emotional desire to be optimistic and
hopeful" made him interpret movements and facial expressions as
purposeful. But after long experience, Prockop says, "I came to
realize
that my emotional reaction was understandable as a human being, but
was
not an intellectual assessment."
The public has seen only a tiny portion of the more than four hours of
videotape shot during the past seven years of litigation over whether
to
keep the 41-year-old woman on a feeding tube.
Even doctors who have agreed that she is in a persistent vegetative
state have admitted to being swayed, if only briefly, by the now
familiar images that have been played and replayed on national
television.
During testimony in a 2002 hearing, court-appointed neurologist Peter
Bambakidis acknowledged that seeing the videotapes of Schiavo's mother
kissing and speaking with her gave him pause at first.
"Yes, that was a source of the concern on my part: How does one
interpret a situation like that?" he said. He even acknowledged that
she
did track a Mickey Mouse balloon with her eyes in one clip.
"I was concerned as to whether or not there may have been some minimal
consciousness there," he testified.
But Bambakidis noted that such visual tracking "commonly occurs
spontaneously in people in a persistent vegetative state." After
reviewing her brain scans and visiting with her, he came to the
conclusion that she had no hope of recovery.
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/12720.html
"Diagnosing The Permanent Vegetative State
by Ronald Cranford, MD"
"But the cardinal features that distinguish the vegetative state from
other syndromes of lesser brain damage, such as the minimally conscious
state, are the absence of sustained visual pursuit (visual tracking) and
visual fixation. The eyes do not follow objects or persons, nor do they
fixate on these objects or persons."
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/313/7048/13
"Many patients who are misdiagnosed as being in the vegetative state are
blind or have severe visual handicap; thus lack of eye blink to threat
or absence of visual tracking are not reliable signs for diagnosing the
vegetative state"
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/319/7213/841
"Visual tracking of large objects moving in the visual field may occur
in patients in the permanent vegetative state, but this should always
prompt careful evaluation of the state. There should be no response such
as eye closure to direct visual threat.The limited evidence from humans
suggests that this requires complex cortical processing. A response
implies awareness of threat, although this need not suggest self
awareness in the absence of any other evidence."
http://hydranencephaly.com/drshewmonsarticle.htm
"The hydranencephaly literature documents subcortical mediation of
certain cognitive functions usually attributed cortex, such as
distinguishing mother, associative learning. consolability.
conditioning, orienting, and visual tracking (Aylward et al 1978. Barnet
et al 1966. Bemlron and Micco1976, Berntron et al. 1983, Brackbill 1971,
Deiker and Bruno 1976. Francis et al 1984. Graham et al 1978, Hairy et
al. 1968, Nielsen and Sedgwick 1949. Tuber et al 1980)."
http://merck.micromedex.com/index.asp?page=bpm_report&article_id=BPM01NE02§ion=report&ss=7
"Akinetic mutism (AM)is a neurobehavioral condition that is
characterized by severely diminished neurologic drive or intention.
Although movement and speech are markedly deficient, spontaneously
visual tracking is always intact. AM usually is considered a subgroup of
the minimally responsive state, because meaningful responses are
typically inconsistent but usually can be elicited after sensory or
pharmacologic stimulation."
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BPG/is_11_15/ai_76609780
"A persistent vegetative state may evolve from coma associated with any
type of devastating injury to the brain. In this condition of complete
unawareness, sleep-wake cycles reappear; the patient's eyes may open,
but without expression or recognition of external stimuli. By
definition, visual tracking must be absent, but startle myoclonus,
grinding of the teeth, shedding of tears, autonomic functions, and many
cranial nerve functions are preserved."
http://pmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/75/884/321
"The predominant feature is that all responses are reflex in nature. In
the vegetative state these present as: (a) No evidence of sustained...to
visual..stiumuli" [...] "If any of these responses occur but are not
consistent then a safer diagnosis is that of the minimal conscious
state."
I think it is dangerous to assume that Bambakidis notion that
"spontaneous" visual tracking occurs in Terri, or "common". Cranford and
others would claim "sustained" visual tracking | | | | | | | | | |
