| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"david ford" |
| Date: |
26 Mar 2005 03:19:13 AM |
| Object: |
Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
The affidavit extracts below demonstrate the falsity of the old media's
erroneous allegation that 'no one is home' in Terri Schindler Schiavo.
Also, Terri can anticipate and feel pain.
A U.S. judiciary run amok and a shameless American Criminal Liberties
Union are intent on murdering via starvation an innocent/ guiltless and
defenseless woman.
Decency demands that this unjustified, court-imposed death sentence on
Terri Schindler Schiavo be stopped.
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and
ACLU run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
From
http://www.hospicepatients.org/terri-schindler-schiavo-docs-links-page.html
from the PDF "Affidavit of William Cheshire, Jr., MD 03-23-05":
AFFIDAVIT
STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF DUVALL
Before me this day personally appeared William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D.,
who, being duly sworn, deposes and says:
I, William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D., have personal knowledge of the
facts stated in this declaration and, if called as a witness, I could
and would testify competently thereto under oath. I declare as follows:
I am a neurologist practicing in the State of Florida and am certified
by the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology. In regard to my
educational background, I received an A.B. in biochemical sciences from
Princeton University, an M.A. in bioethics from Trinity International
University, and an M.D. from West Virginia University. I completed an
internship in internal medicine at West Virginia University, a residency
in neurology and a pain fellowship at the University of North Carolina.
I am also an appointed volunteer with the Florida Statewide Adult
Protective Services team, in which capacity I was called on March 1,
2005, to provide an independent and objective medical review of
allegations of possible abuse, neglect, or exploitation of Ms. Theresa
Marie Schiavo.
Although no one from the Department of Children and Families has
inquired about my personal views about treatment decisions in cases of
persistent vegetative state (PVS), I would like to disclose that I came
into this case with the belief that it can be ethically permissible to
discontinue artificially provided nutrition and hydration for patients
in a persistent vegetative state. Having now reviewed the relevant
facts, having met and observed Ms. Schiavo in person, and having
reflected deeply on the moral and ethical issues, I would like to
explain why I change my mind in regard to this particular case.
.....
Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS. These include:
1. Her behavior is frequently context-specific. For example, her
facial expression brightens and she smiles in response to the voice of
familiar persons such as her parents or her nurse. Her agitation
subsides and her facial demeanor softens when quiet music is played.
When jubilant piano music is played, her face brightens, she lifts her
eyebrows, smiles, and even laughs. Her lateral gaze toward the tape
player is sustained for many minutes. Several times I witnessed Terri
briefly, albeit inconsistently, laugh in response to a humorous comment
someone in the room had made. I did not see her laugh in the absence of
someone else's laughter.
2. Although she does not seem to track or follow visual objects
consistently or for long periods of time, she does fixate her gaze on
colorful objects or human faces for some 15 seconds at a time and
occasionally follows with her eyes at least briefly as these objects
move from side to side. When I first walked into her room, she
immediately turned her head toward me and looked directly at my face.
There was a lot of curiosity or expectation in her expression, and she
maintained eye contact for about half a minute. Later, when she again
looked at me, she brought her lips together as if to pronounce the
letter "O," and although for a moment it appeared that she might be
making an intentional effort to speak, her face then fell blank, and no
words came out.
3. Although I did not hear Terri utter distinct words, she demonstrates
emotional expressivity by her use of a single syllable of vocalizations
such as "ah," making cooing sounds, or by expressing guttural sounds of
annoyance or moaning appropriate to the context of the situation. The
context-specific range and the variability of her vocalizations suggests
at least a reasonable probability of the processing of emotional thought
within her brain. There have been reports of Terri rarely using actual
words specific to her situational context. The July 25, 2003 affidavit
of the speech pathologist Sarah Green Mole, MS, on page 6, reads, "The
records of Mediplex reflect the fact that she has said 'stop' in
apparent response to a medical procedure being done to her." The Adult
Protective Services team has been unable to retrieve those original
medical records in this instance.
4. Although Terri has not consistently followed commands, there
appeared to be some notable exceptions. In the taped examination by Dr.
Hammesfahr from 2002, when asked to close her eyes she began to blink
repeatedly. Although it was unclear whether she squeezed her grip when
asked, she did appear to raise her right leg four times in succession
each time she was asked to do so. Rehabilitation notes from 1991
indicated that she tracked inconsistently, and although she did not
develop a yes/no communication system, did follow some commands
inconsistently and demonstrated good eye contact to family members.
5. There is a remarkable moment in the videotape of the September 3,
2002 examination by Dr. Hammesfahr that seemed to go unnoticed at the
time. At 2:44 p.m., Dr. Hammesfahr had just turned Terri onto her right
side to examine her back with a painful sharp stimulus (a sharp piece of
wood), to which Terri had responded with signs of discomfort. Well
after he ceased applying the stimulus and had returned Terri to a
comfortable position, he says to her parents, "So, we're going to have
to roll her over...." Immediately Terri cries. She vocalizes a crying
sound, "Ugh, ha, ha, ha," presses her eyebrows together, and sadly
grimaces. It is important to note that, at that moment, no one is
touching Terri or causing actual pain. Rather, she appears to
comprehend the meaning of Dr. Hammesfahr's comment and she signals her
_anticipation_ of pain. This response suggests some degree of language
processing and interpretation at the level of the cerebral cortex. It
also suggests that she may be aware of pain beyond what could be
explained by simple reflex withdrawal.
6. According to the definition of PVS published by the American Academy
of Neurology, "persistent vegetative state patients do not have the
capacity to experience pain or suffering. Pain and suffering are
attributes of consciousness requiring cerebral cortical functioning, and
patients who are permanently and completely unconscious cannot
experience these symptoms."^6 And yet, in my review of Terri's medical
records, pain issues keep surfacing. The nurses at Woodside Hospice
told us that she often has pain with menstrual cramps. Menstrual flow
is associated with agitation, repeated or sustained moaning, facial
grimacing, limb posturing, and facial flushing, all of which subside
once she is given ibuprofen. Some of the records document moaning,
crying, and other painful behavior in the setting of urinary tract
infections.
.....
7. To enter the room of Terri Schiavo is nothing like entering the room
of a patient who is comatose or brain-dead or in some neurological sense
no longer there. Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90
minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness,
or volitional behavior, yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the
presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of
some things around her.
As I looked at Terri, and she gazed directly back at me, I asked myself
whether, if I were her attending physician, I could in good conscience
withdraw nutrition and hydration. No, I could not. I could not
withdraw life support if I were asked. I could not withhold
life-sustaining nutrition and hydration from this beautiful lady whose
face brightens in the presence of others.
The neurologic signs are in many ways ambiguous. There is no guarantee
that more sophisticated testing would definitively resolve that
ambiguity to everyone's satisfaction. There would be value, I think, in
obtaining a functional MRI scan if that is possible.
This situation differs fundamentally from end-of-life scenarios where it
is appropriate to withdraw life-sustaining medical interventions that no
longer benefit or are burdensome to patients in the terminal stages of
illness. Terri's feeding tube is not a burden to her. It is not
painful, is not infected, is not eroding her stomach lining or causing
any medical complications. But for the decision to withdraw her feeding
tube, Terri cannot be considered medically terminal. But for the
withdrawal of food and water, she would not die [well, she would not die
now-- everybody dies eventually, sometimes sooner rather than later. We
never know when we will go to meet our Maker. -df].
In summary, Terri [Schindler] Schiavo demonstrates behaviors in a
variety of cognitive domains that call into question the previous
neurologic diagnosis of persistent vegetative state. Specifically, she
has demonstrated behaviors that are context-specific, sustained, and
indicative of a cerebral cortical processing that, upon careful
neurologic consideration, would not be expected in a persistent
vegetative state.
Based on this evidence, I believe that, within a reasonable degree of
medical certainty, there is a greater likelihood that Terri is in a
minimally conscious state than a persistent vegetative state. This
distinction makes an enormous difference in making ethical decisions on
Terri's behalf. If Terri is sufficiently aware of her surroundings that
she can feel pleasure and suffer, if she is capable of understanding to
some degree how she is being treated, then in my judgment it would be
wrong to bring about her death by withdrawing food and water.
At the time of this writing, Terri Schiavo, as the result of the
decisions based on what I have argued to be a faulty diagnosis of
persistent vegetative state, has been without food or water for 5 days.
She is thus at risk of death or serious injury unless the provision of
food and water can be restored. Terri Schiavo lacks the capacity to
consent to emergency protective services and must trust others to act on
her behalf. If she were to be transferred to another facility, it would
be medically necessary first to initiate hydration and ensure that her
serum electrolytes are within normal values.
How medicine and society choose to think about Terri [Schindler] Schiavo
will influence what kind of people we will be as we evaluate and respond
to the needs of the most vulnerable people among us. When serious
doubts exist as to whether a cognitively impaired person is or is not
consciously aware, even if these doubts cannot be conclusively resolved,
it is better to err on the side of protecting vulnerable life.
Respectfully submitted,
William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D., M.A., F.A.A.N.
[signature]
Sworn to (or affirmed) and subscribed before me this 23[rd] day of
March, 2005, by William Polk Cheshire, Jr., M.D.
[notary stamp and signature]
======================================================================
articles: livelier ones are by Thomas Sowell and William Kristol. Eric
Cohen's is very thoughtful.
http://www.townhall.com
Cal Thomas: Schiavo case matters in symbol and substance
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adfseF68nkocU1%40individual.net
Justifications for taking of human life?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aj33dF67kgcuU2%40individual.net
any atheists against Terri Schindler Schiavo's being starved to death?
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3adrlvF69l60hU1%40individual.net
1997 Wesley Smith on Germany's slippery slope slide from devaluing some
human life to a little euthanasia/ killing to mass killings
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3abe1cF6ac7t2U1%40individual.net
ACLU: Legal Terrorists
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/11/27/195402.shtml
Terri Schindler Schiavo Case
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/10/16/223430.shtml
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43463
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and
ACLU run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
.
|
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| User: "Deadrat" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 06:42:01 PM |
|
|
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-3ak2l1F6att0vU1@individual.net...
The affidavit extracts below demonstrate the falsity of the old media's
erroneous allegation that 'no one is home' in Terri Schindler Schiavo.
Also, Terri can anticipate and feel pain.
A U.S. judiciary run amok and a shameless American Criminal Liberties
Union are intent on murdering via starvation an innocent/ guiltless and
defenseless woman.
Decency demands that this unjustified, court-imposed death sentence on
Terri Schindler Schiavo be stopped.
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri and stop a judiciary and
ACLU run amok?
action items to help Terri
http://www.terrisfight.org/actionitems.html
From
http://www.hospicepatients.org/terri-schindler-schiavo-docs-links-page.html
from the PDF "Affidavit of William Cheshire, Jr., MD 03-23-05":
AFFIDAVIT <snipped>
This post is a perfect example of why over 80% of the public, by some polls,
are disgusted with the people who are making a spectacle of Terri Shiavo's
condition. And I'm not even talking about the attached affidavit or
Cheshire,
both found to be lacking in credibility.
"the falsity of the old media's erroneous allegation"
I've read plenty of media. They either publish clearly marked
opinion pieces or *report* what doctors say. Even doctors
of Cheshire's ilk. Nowhere have I read "the media," old or new,
report as evident fact that Schiavo is essentially without cognitive
function. They always attribute. What's your problem with that?
"Terri can anticipate and fee pain."
Even the nonsense you post doesn't claim that Terri can
anticipate anything, just that she sometimes reacts. And
how do you know that she feels pain? She has no cerebral
cortex to perceive pain, so the best guess is that this is false.
How do you actually conclude otherwise?
"A U.S. judiciary run amok ...."
And just where do you think the judiciary is off base?
Have they failed to follow the law? Have they acted precipitously?
Carelessly? Callously? What? Eight years isn't enough for you?
Have they overstepped their authority? I understand that you
don't like the outcome. I would understand that you might
criticize the courts for being wrong. But I cannot understand
someone who decides the courts are out of control simply because
they didn't rule his way. Would that the legislative and executive
branches had been as honorable.
and a shameless American Criminal Liberties Union
The ACLU supports legal action you don't. So they're not
mistaken. They're shameless.
"intent on murdering via starvation ...."
Look who's shameless now. You know that removing
life support from someone like Terri Schiavo is not murder,
but you say it anyway.
Deadrat
.
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| User: "Peacenik" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
27 Mar 2005 08:19:22 PM |
|
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"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-3ak2l1F6att0vU1@individual.net...
What, if anything, will you do to help Terri
Allow her to achieve her wish: to die.
.
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| User: "Geoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 04:45:22 AM |
|
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"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-3ak2l1F6att0vU1@individual.net...
Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS. These include:
To bad he didn't do any diagnostic tests like an EEG. Oh wait, that's right.
That would only prove the point contrary to the position he had been trotted
out to make.
Her EEG's are flat. No one's home.
.
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| User: "Larry C. Lyons" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 05:29:08 PM |
|
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Geoff wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-3ak2l1F6att0vU1@individual.net...
Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS. These include:
To bad he didn't do any diagnostic tests like an EEG. Oh wait, that's right.
That would only prove the point contrary to the position he had been trotted
out to make.
Her EEG's are flat. No one's home.
From what I understand, there is a bit of activity. However you can get
the same activity by placing a bowl of jello on the EEG, and putting the
electrodes on that. I tried that in grad school, and you do get a
similar EEG pattern found with PVS patients.
larry
--
Larry C. Lyons
========================================================
Life is Complex. It has both real and imaginary parts.
========================================================
Chaos, Panic and Disorder. My work here is done.
.
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| User: "Glenn" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 06:32:06 PM |
|
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"Larry C. Lyons" <LarryCLyons@someoneElse.Invalid> wrote in message
news:EZg1e.18103$wL6.17191@trnddc03...
Geoff wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-3ak2l1F6att0vU1@individual.net...
Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS. These include:
To bad he didn't do any diagnostic tests like an EEG. Oh wait, that's right.
That would only prove the point contrary to the position he had been trotted
out to make.
Her EEG's are flat. No one's home.
From what I understand, there is a bit of activity. However you can get
the same activity by placing a bowl of jello on the EEG, and putting the
electrodes on that. I tried that in grad school, and you do get a
similar EEG pattern found with PVS patients.
Now there's an attitude! "Found with PVS patients". Since many patients are
wrongly diagnosed as having PVS, and some improve and escape the clutches of
those who would say ***** like that, I doubt seriously whether they all have EEG
patterns similar to jello. You're a fruitcake.
.
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| User: "Geoff" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 10:55:52 PM |
|
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"Glenn" <glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> wrote in message
news:glennsheldon-ITh1e.18$ml6.517@news.uswest.net...
"Larry C. Lyons" <LarryCLyons@someoneElse.Invalid> wrote in message
news:EZg1e.18103$wL6.17191@trnddc03...
Geoff wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-3ak2l1F6att0vU1@individual.net...
Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's
care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS. These include:
To bad he didn't do any diagnostic tests like an EEG. Oh wait, that's
right.
That would only prove the point contrary to the position he had been
trotted
out to make.
Her EEG's are flat. No one's home.
From what I understand, there is a bit of activity. However you can get
the same activity by placing a bowl of jello on the EEG, and putting the
electrodes on that. I tried that in grad school, and you do get a
similar EEG pattern found with PVS patients.
Now there's an attitude! "Found with PVS patients". Since many patients
are
wrongly diagnosed as having PVS, and some improve and escape the clutches
of
those who would say ***** like that, I doubt seriously whether they all
have EEG
patterns similar to jello. You're a fruitcake.
Yes some patients get misdiagnosed. For PVS, for flu, for hepatitis...
There are some gray area of diagnosis. But not here. This is (sorry,
couldn't resist), a slam dunk!
.
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| User: "Glenn" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 11:17:33 PM |
|
|
"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ZvSdnY9SaqHkddjfRVn-pQ@giganews.com...
"Glenn" <glennsheldon@SPAMqwest.net> wrote in message
news:glennsheldon-ITh1e.18$ml6.517@news.uswest.net...
"Larry C. Lyons" <LarryCLyons@someoneElse.Invalid> wrote in message
news:EZg1e.18103$wL6.17191@trnddc03...
Geoff wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-3ak2l1F6att0vU1@individual.net...
Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's
care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS. These include:
To bad he didn't do any diagnostic tests like an EEG. Oh wait, that's
right.
That would only prove the point contrary to the position he had been
trotted
out to make.
Her EEG's are flat. No one's home.
From what I understand, there is a bit of activity. However you can get
the same activity by placing a bowl of jello on the EEG, and putting the
electrodes on that. I tried that in grad school, and you do get a
similar EEG pattern found with PVS patients.
Now there's an attitude! "Found with PVS patients". Since many patients
are
wrongly diagnosed as having PVS, and some improve and escape the clutches
of
those who would say ***** like that, I doubt seriously whether they all
have EEG
patterns similar to jello. You're a fruitcake.
Yes some patients get misdiagnosed. For PVS, for flu, for hepatitis...
There are some gray area of diagnosis. But not here. This is (sorry,
couldn't resist), a slam dunk!
Kind of just "weigh'n in" on the sitiation, eh?
.
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| User: "Larry C. Lyons" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
26 Mar 2005 11:32:47 PM |
|
|
Glenn wrote:
"Larry C. Lyons" <LarryCLyons@someoneElse.Invalid> wrote in message
news:EZg1e.18103$wL6.17191@trnddc03...
Geoff wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-3ak2l1F6att0vU1@individual.net...
Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS. These include:
To bad he didn't do any diagnostic tests like an EEG. Oh wait, that's right.
That would only prove the point contrary to the position he had been trotted
out to make.
Her EEG's are flat. No one's home.
From what I understand, there is a bit of activity. However you can get
the same activity by placing a bowl of jello on the EEG, and putting the
electrodes on that. I tried that in grad school, and you do get a
similar EEG pattern found with PVS patients.
Now there's an attitude! "Found with PVS patients". Since many patients are
wrongly diagnosed as having PVS, and some improve and escape the clutches of
those who would say ***** like that, I doubt seriously whether they all have EEG
patterns similar to jello. You're a fruitcake.
Have you worked with people who have been diagnosed with PVS or MCS? Are
you familiar with administering EEG and accurately interpreting it?
Obviously not from the sounds of it. I guess your expertise is in
pre-juvinile tempertantrums and infantile insults.
As for those so called misdiagnoses, if your also read the same article,
you'll see that the authors noted that many of these so-called
misdiagnosed patients were blind or deaf. Therefore visual or auditory
tracking tests don't work. Later studies have shown than when such
factors are taken into account the misdiagnosis rate significantly
drops. But given the behavioral tests, the EEG and the CT scans, the
evidence is overwhemingly obvious that Ms. Shiavo has not higher
cortical functions. Her brain is what's called decorticate - without a
cortex.
As for the jello analogy, I was pointing out that any indications of
minimal activity can be artifactual. Simply put, the vibrations from the
equipment are picked up by the EEG electrodes and recorded as a
waveform. If these artifacts are not filted out they can be interpreted
as EEG activity. Moreover our brains have a very similar consistency of
jello. In the mid 70's Dutch researchers originally tried that
experiment using gelatin and found some activity. So its possible to
misdiagnose the other way as well, ascribing cognitive activity when the
machine is only picking up outside vibrations.
larry
--
Larry C. Lyons
========================================================
Life is Complex. It has both real and imaginary parts.
========================================================
Chaos, Panic and Disorder. My work here is done.
.
|
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| User: "Glenn" |
|
| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
27 Mar 2005 12:04:59 AM |
|
|
"Larry C. Lyons" <LarryCLyons@someoneElse.Invalid> wrote in message
news:zim1e.30947$mq2.1545@trnddc08...
Glenn wrote:
"Larry C. Lyons" <LarryCLyons@someoneElse.Invalid> wrote in message
news:EZg1e.18103$wL6.17191@trnddc03...
Geoff wrote:
"david ford" <dford3@gl.umbc.edu> wrote in message
news:dford3-3ak2l1F6att0vU1@individual.net...
Based on my review of extensive medical records documenting Terri's care
over the years, on my personal observation of Terri, and on my
observations of Terri's responses in the many hours of videotapes taken
in 2002, she demonstrates a number of behaviors I believe cast a
reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis of PVS. These include:
To bad he didn't do any diagnostic tests like an EEG. Oh wait, that's
right.
That would only prove the point contrary to the position he had been
trotted
out to make.
Her EEG's are flat. No one's home.
From what I understand, there is a bit of activity. However you can get
the same activity by placing a bowl of jello on the EEG, and putting the
electrodes on that. I tried that in grad school, and you do get a
similar EEG pattern found with PVS patients.
Now there's an attitude! "Found with PVS patients". Since many patients are
wrongly diagnosed as having PVS, and some improve and escape the clutches of
those who would say ***** like that, I doubt seriously whether they all have
EEG
patterns similar to jello. You're a fruitcake.
Have you worked with people who have been diagnosed with PVS or MCS? Are
you familiar with administering EEG and accurately interpreting it?
Obviously not from the sounds of it. I guess your expertise is in
pre-juvinile tempertantrums and infantile insults.
It seems I didn't find your claim that all PVS patients have EEG patterns
similar to jello was supported. You seem to want to overlook that.
As for those so called misdiagnoses, if your also read the same article,
you'll see that the authors noted that many of these so-called
misdiagnosed patients were blind or deaf. Therefore visual or auditory
tracking tests don't work.
Kind of hard to determine just what a patient can see or how well they do, if
they can't tell you, isn't it, expert.
Later studies have shown than when such
factors
What factors?
are taken into account the misdiagnosis rate significantly
drops. But given the behavioral tests, the EEG and the CT scans, the
evidence is overwhemingly obvious that Ms. Shiavo has not higher
cortical functions. Her brain is what's called decorticate - without a
cortex.
Another bald ***** claim stuck on the end of squash. Where do you people come
from???
As for the jello analogy, I was pointing out that any indications of
minimal activity can be artifactual.
Actually, I pointed that out.
Simply put, the vibrations from the
equipment are picked up by the EEG electrodes and recorded as a
waveform. If these artifacts are not filted out they can be interpreted
as EEG activity.
Apparently something is filtered out.
Moreover our brains have a very similar consistency of
jello. In the mid 70's Dutch researchers originally tried that
experiment using gelatin and found some activity.
ROTF! You actually see a connection, or some reason for this malarkay, don't
you.
So its possible to
misdiagnose the other way as well, ascribing cognitive activity when the
machine is only picking up outside vibrations.
So Terri's brain is like jello, PVC patients have similar EEGs, and Terri is
both braindead and in a Vegetative State. Wow!
In the absense of evidence, or should I say profusion of rhetoric, *you* pick up
on the "outside vibrations":
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:Y8pJKj0G0zEJ:www.vegetativestate.org/schmutzhard.doc+Persistent+vegetative+state+EEG&hl=en
Table 6: Clinica characteristics of Vegetative State = Apallic Syndrome
Self awareness absent
Sleep-wake rhythm intact
Motor function none, at least: no purposeful movement
Sensation of pain ? (presumably none)
Respiration normal
EEG activity abnormal, delta- theta slowing, no reaction to external stimuly
Cerebral metabolism reduced (<50%)
Prognosis quo ad rehabilitationem depending from the etiologic cause
Table 7: Clinical characteristics of brain death
Self awareness none
Sleep-wake rhythm absent
Motor function none
Sensation of pain none
Respiration none
EEG activity none, isoelectric line
Cerebral perfusion none
Cerebral metabolism none
Prognosis quo ad rehabilitationem none
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
10 Apr 2005 03:47:00 AM |
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2005 nurse Nora Wagner: Terri Feels Pain
From
http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200503\NAT20050323c.html
Fired Nurse Claims Terri Feels Pain
By Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
March 23, 2005
(CNSNews.com) - A nurse, who worked until Monday at the hospice where
Terri Schiavo is dying of dehydration and starvation under court
order, claims Terri feels pain and the nursing staff medicates her for
that pain. Nora Wagner also claims she was fired Monday after
expressing support for keeping Terri alive.
Wagner has been a nurse for 30 years and spent the last two years as a
contract employee of an agency that provides nurses to the Woodside
Hospice in Pinellas Park, Fla., where Terri has been kept since April
of 2000. She told a Florida television station that Terri's feeding
tube should not have been removed.
[video clip:
http://www.tampabaylive.com/video/news/2005/03/0323nurse.shtml
"She's not physically ill, other than being brain damaged," Wagner
told WPTF reporter Sarina Fazan.
Cybercast News Service tried repeatedly to contact Wagner Wednesday.
She did not answer calls and her voice mail account was full and would
not accept new messages.
Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo, spoke with ABC News Nightline's
Chris Bury on March 15 and discussed the prospect of Teri suffering
from a death by dehydration and starvation.
"It is a very painless procedure. Terri can't," Schiavo said, not
finishing the sentence. "She has no cortex left. She doesn't feel
pain."
But Wagner described the circumstances under which Woodside Hospice
personnel would give Terri pain medication.
"The only time I ever heard her make sounds is, um, if she's in pain
like, if, you know, she has her monthly (menstrual period) and she's
in pain," Wagner explained. "She'll moan a bit and grimace, and
that's how we know, you know, to give her a Motrin."
[compare:
From
December 2003 Carla Sauer Iyer, who
worked from April 1995 to 11 August 1996
where Terri was
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3al49lF6ajhdbU1%40individual.net
Terri would try to say the word "pain" when she was in
discomfort, but it came out more like "pay". She didn't
say the "n" sound very well. During her menses she
would indicate her discomfort by saying "pay" and
moving her arms toward her lower abdominal area. Other
ways that she would indicate that she was in pain
included pursing her lips, grimacing, thrashing in bed,
curling her toes or moving her legs around.
From
2001 Trudy Capone, re: sometime around pre-Feb-1993 malpractice
settlement timeframe
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3aldurF67edg6U1%40individual.net
[12] KRT asked me about Terri when she [i.e., I] cared
for her, specifically if I ever observed any eye movement
on Terri's behalf that would indicate Terri was following
people who visited with her eyes and if she seems to
really know what was going on. I told KRT "Absolutely!
Yes, yes. Why do you think Michael would instruct us to
give her medication when she was on her period?"
]
Terri was well cared for by the hospice staff, according to Wagner who
said it is remarkable, "to be bed-ridden that long, you know, 15
years, five of those years at hospice and not have a mark on your
body.
"They lotion her skin. She doesn't have bed sores," Wagner continued.
"They take excellent care of her, you know, she's washed every day."
[compare:
From
September 2003 affidavit of Heidi Law, who worked at a
Terri nursing home from March 1997 to mid-summer of 1997
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3am3raF6b8ckoU1%40individual.net
20. I recall an incident when Olga became very upset
because Terri started to get a sore spot, because it might
lead to a bedsore. Michael was told about it but didn't
seem to care. He didn't complain about it all, in fact,
saying "she doesn't know the difference." When Terri
would get a UTI [urinary tract infection] or was sick,
Michael's mood would improve.
Re: UTI/ urinary tract infections, compare "November 1993 Michael
Schiavo Deposition, Guardianship Hearing" within
http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/intelligencerreport/terri.html
]
But Wagner also said that, while she was at work Sunday, she had what
she considered "healthy debates" over Terri's condition with some of
her fellow nurses.
"They think it should be over." Wagner said. "They think she
wouldn't, she wouldn't want to live like this and they're just in
agreement that the tube should come out, that the husband is the
guardian and he should have the say."
Wagner's opinions, she said, led to her being removed from the
Woodside Hospice by the nurse staffing agency that had placed her
there. "The lady from the agency called me and said she got a call
from Woodside," Wagner said. "They were very upset about things I had
said about Terri and they don't want me back."
While that meant Wagner would not be working at Woodside Hospice, it
didn't mean she was out of a job, at least not yet. Wagner claimed
her agency supervisor then told her, "And, if you go to the media, you
know, you're fired."
Wagner's response was, "Consider me fired."
Mike Bell, vice president of community relations with Hospice of the
Florida Suncoast,
[URL: http://www.thehospice.org/ ]
reportedly told WPTF that it was Wagner's comments to the media, not
her personal opinions that cost her job.
"We respect the diversity of strongly held opinions and beliefs, even
among our staff and volunteers," Fazan reported.
[same video clip, different file format:
http://real.scripps.com:8480/ramgen/tampalive/news/2005/03/0323nurse.rm
"Where there would be a problem is a violation of confidentiality and
failure to respect the privacy of any patient or family member, and
that would be the reason why the agency asked Nora Wagner not to
return to Woodside."
Fazan did not point out in her report, however, that Wagner's comments
to the media were only made after she was ordered to remain silent by
the placement agency, not prior to the Woodside Hospice request that
she not be allowed to return to their facility.
[re: pain, compare
23 March 2005 William Cheshire affidavit: someone is there; Terri can
anticipate and feel pain
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3ak2l1F6att0vU1%40individual.net
re: Woodside Hospice, compare
Judi McLeod's "Mainstream media unreported conflicts
of interest in Schiavo tragedy"
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504070722.4ececd46%40posting.google.com
For more reading:
Terri URLs
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3avs98F6fdrtbU1%40individual.net
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| User: "shane" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
10 Apr 2005 10:19:16 AM |
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<snip for space>
David, you have been championing this cause for quite a while now,
showing an admirable amount of determination to see it through to the
end. However, ISTM that the end came and went and you perhaps did not
notice. The world has moved on, and others are now in need of someone to
champion their cause. I direct you to the following thread on
Talk.Origins to ask you to take up the fight for another victim in
similar straits to that of Terri Schiavo.
Schiavo vs. Raich and the "Culture of Life"
--
shane
And the truth shall set you free.
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| User: "Fencingsax" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
10 Apr 2005 02:24:16 PM |
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And here I was thinking that the Schiavo issue was not one of religion,
but one of governement getting too involved in private affairs.
Really though, I don't see how CAT scans lie. Unless they weren't her
real Cat scans and doctors lied etc. Then you can take the conspiracy
route. You'd probably be a bit more credible than you are now.
I also find the nurse's "testimony" suspect, but that's just me.
.
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| User: "david ford" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
11 Apr 2005 07:26:29 PM |
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"Fencingsax" <Christocbd@gmail.com> wrote in message news:<1113143056.476728.69180@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>...
And here I was thinking that the Schiavo issue was not one of religion,
but one of governement getting too involved in private affairs.
Really though, I don't see how CAT scans lie.
Details? And refs?
Unless they weren't her
real Cat scans and doctors lied etc. Then you can take the conspiracy
route. You'd probably be a bit more credible than you are now.
I also find the nurse's "testimony" suspect, but that's just me.
What are some specific remarks of hers you found "suspect"?
Do you consider the Cheshire remarks below "suspect"?
From
23 March 2005 William Cheshire affidavit: someone is there; Terri can
anticipate and feel pain
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3ak2l1F6att0vU1%40individual.net
6. According to the definition of PVS published by the American
Academy
of Neurology, "persistent vegetative state patients do not have the
capacity to experience pain or suffering. Pain and suffering are
attributes of consciousness requiring cerebral cortical functioning,
and
patients who are permanently and completely unconscious cannot
experience these symptoms."^6 And yet, in my review of Terri's
medical
records, pain issues keep surfacing. The nurses at Woodside Hospice
told us that she often has pain with menstrual cramps. Menstrual flow
is associated with agitation, repeated or sustained moaning, facial
grimacing, limb posturing, and facial flushing, all of which subside
once she is given ibuprofen. Some of the records document moaning,
crying, and other painful behavior in the setting of urinary tract
infections.
Compare
2005 nurse Nora Wagner: Terri Feels Pain
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-b1c67abe.0504091947.7ef10df3%40posting.google.com
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| User: "Stanley Friesen" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
12 Apr 2005 02:40:40 AM |
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(david ford) wrote:
"Fencingsax" <Christocbd@gmail.com> wrote in message news:<1113143056.476728.69180@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>...
And here I was thinking that the Schiavo issue was not one of religion,
but one of governement getting too involved in private affairs.
Really though, I don't see how CAT scans lie.
Details? And refs?
Try: http://www.rangelmd.com/2005/03/end-draws-near.html
This site has the benefit of showing normal brain next to Terri's.
Terri's CAT scan is one of the worst I have ever seen. It is "grossly
abnormal and sickening". I can see NO normal, healthy cortex in that
scan at all. Particularly significant - her frontal lobe is massively
reduced, so there was NO consciousness there.
records, pain issues keep surfacing. The nurses at Woodside Hospice
told us that she often has pain with menstrual cramps. Menstrual flow
is associated with agitation, repeated or sustained moaning, facial
grimacing, limb posturing, and facial flushing, all of which subside
once she is given ibuprofen.
There is a distinction between reflexive responses to noxious stimuli
mediated by the brain stem and/or the somatic ganglia and *conscious*
pain (that is *felt* pain). The hypothalamus and the sympathetic
nervous system drive much of this response without need of conscious
involvement.
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
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| User: "John S. Wilkins" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
12 Apr 2005 02:56:33 AM |
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Stanley Friesen wrote:
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote:
"Fencingsax" <Christocbd@gmail.com> wrote in message news:<1113143056.476728.69180@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>...
And here I was thinking that the Schiavo issue was not one of religion,
but one of governement getting too involved in private affairs.
Really though, I don't see how CAT scans lie.
Details? And refs?
Try: http://www.rangelmd.com/2005/03/end-draws-near.html
This site has the benefit of showing normal brain next to Terri's.
Terri's CAT scan is one of the worst I have ever seen. It is "grossly
abnormal and sickening". I can see NO normal, healthy cortex in that
scan at all. Particularly significant - her frontal lobe is massively
reduced, so there was NO consciousness there.
records, pain issues keep surfacing. The nurses at Woodside Hospice
told us that she often has pain with menstrual cramps. Menstrual flow
is associated with agitation, repeated or sustained moaning, facial
grimacing, limb posturing, and facial flushing, all of which subside
once she is given ibuprofen.
There is a distinction between reflexive responses to noxious stimuli
mediated by the brain stem and/or the somatic ganglia and *conscious*
pain (that is *felt* pain). The hypothalamus and the sympathetic
nervous system drive much of this response without need of conscious
involvement.
One thing that I find interesting here, is that the outer layer of the
neo-cortex is still intact - could messages be mediated to it without
the cortex and the corpus callosum? In short, could there be some
self-awareness even without the inner cortex? [Expecting the answer no,
but I want *details*]
--
John S. Wilkins
Postdoctoral Research Fellow
Biohumanities Project
School of History, Philosophy, Religion and Classics
The University of Queensland
Brisbane, QLD 4072, Australia
Tel +61 7 3365 6348
Mobile 0418 543 856
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| User: "Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
13 Apr 2005 03:36:14 AM |
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"John S. Wilkins" <john@wilkins.id.au> wrote in news:d3fdd2$2216$1
@bunyip2.cc.uq.edu.au:
One thing that I find interesting here, is that the outer layer of the
neo-cortex is still intact - could messages be mediated to it without
the cortex and the corpus callosum? In short, could there be some
self-awareness even without the inner cortex? [Expecting the answer no,
but I want *details*]
I think it's unknowable. One can only make medical decisions on evidence,
not on hypothetical unknowns or conjecture about what awareness is. My 2
cents...
--
Christ Kills Two, Injures Seven in Abortion Clinic Attack.
"He put his hands over Dr. Woodring's head and told him he forgave him for
his sins and then he shot him in the face." --The Onion
"Freedom is a dangerous thing, and you might be exposed to things you don't
want to hear,"he said.--Rep. Dennis Baxley, R-Ocala FL
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| User: "Stanley Friesen" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
12 Apr 2005 01:57:10 PM |
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"John S. Wilkins" <john@wilkins.id.au> wrote:
Stanley Friesen wrote:
dford3@gl.umbc.edu (david ford) wrote:
There is a distinction between reflexive responses to noxious stimuli
mediated by the brain stem and/or the somatic ganglia and *conscious*
pain (that is *felt* pain). The hypothalamus and the sympathetic
nervous system drive much of this response without need of conscious
involvement.
One thing that I find interesting here, is that the outer layer of the
neo-cortex is still intact - could messages be mediated to it without
the cortex and the corpus callosum? In short, could there be some
self-awareness even without the inner cortex? [Expecting the answer no,
but I want *details*]
I am not sure that we *can* conclude that the outer cortex was intact -
at least not from the CAT scan. I wonder if the what is left could be
the pia and other non-neural tissues?
Also, given the complete elimination of the inner cortex, I would say
that the vast majority of the pyramidal cells in her brain were
destroyed (neurons without axons are pretty much destroyed, no matter
what). This would leave each local module totally isolated, with no
inputs or outputs - not to mention disrupting the local circuits. The
result would be pretty much non-functional bits and pieces..
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
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| User: "Robert J. Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
12 Apr 2005 02:02:23 PM |
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Stanley Friesen wrote:
Love your sig. Was the peace of God with the infants of Sodam and Gomorrah?
Bob Kolker
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| User: "AC" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
12 Apr 2005 02:23:45 PM |
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On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:02:23 -0400,
Robert J. Kolker <nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:
Stanley Friesen wrote:
Love your sig. Was the peace of God with the infants of Sodam and Gomorrah?
From a guy who thought it was just fine that Americans shot "Injuns" and who
thinks illegal aliens ought to be shot at the border, the irony of going
after Stanley's sig is just too rich, Bob.
--
mightymartianca@hotmail.com
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| User: "Robert J. Kolker" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
12 Apr 2005 02:54:27 PM |
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AC wrote:
From a guy who thought it was just fine that Americans shot "Injuns" and who
thinks illegal aliens ought to be shot at the border, the irony of going
after Stanley's sig is just too rich, Bob.
He was the one who wrote the sig, not me. It invited a question and I
asked it.
Bob Kolker
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| User: "Robin Levett" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
12 Apr 2005 09:06:14 PM |
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Robert J. Kolker wrote:
AC wrote:
From a guy who thought it was just fine that Americans shot "Injuns" and
who thinks illegal aliens ought to be shot at the border, the irony of
going after Stanley's sig is just too rich, Bob.
He was the one who wrote the sig, not me. It invited a question and I
asked it.
It invited no question. All the sensible atheists hare have no problem with
that sig; google for previous attacks on it, and sod off.
--
Robin Levett
rlevett@rlevett.ibmuklunix.net (unmunge by removing big blue - don't yahoo)
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| User: "r norman" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
11 Apr 2005 07:53:26 PM |
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On 11 Apr 2005 12:26:29 -0700, (david ford) wrote:
What are some specific remarks of hers you found "suspect"?
Do you consider the Cheshire remarks below "suspect"?
From
23 March 2005 William Cheshire affidavit: someone is there; Terri can
anticipate and feel pain
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=dford3-3ak2l1F6att0vU1%40individual.net
6. According to the definition of PVS published by the American
Academy
of Neurology, "persistent vegetative state patients do not have the
capacity to experience pain or suffering. Pain and suffering are
attributes of consciousness requiring cerebral cortical functioning,
and
patients who are permanently and completely unconscious cannot
experience these symptoms."^6 And yet, in my review of Terri's
medical
records, pain issues keep surfacing. The nurses at Woodside Hospice
told us that she often has pain with menstrual cramps. Menstrual flow
is associated with agitation, repeated or sustained moaning, facial
grimacing, limb posturing, and facial flushing, all of which subside
once she is given ibuprofen. Some of the records document moaning,
crying, and other painful behavior in the setting of urinary tract
infections.
You do not indicate to what extent these reflex responses are
associated with subcortical brain stem structures. The American
Academy of Neurology definition includes the "experience" of pain or
suffering. It is well accepted that patients in PVS can respond to
stimuli using lower CNS functions. The only issue is whether there
was significant cerebral cortex functioning. Nobody disputes that
there were other functioning CNS structures.
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| User: "shane" |
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| Title: Re: Facts vs. media fictions about Terri's actual condition |
11 Apr 2005 11:57:55 PM |
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david ford wrote:
"Fencingsax" <Christocbd@gmail.com> wrote in message news:<1113143056.476728.69180@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>...
And here I was thinking that the Schiavo issue was not one of religion,
but one of governement getting too involved in private affairs.
Really though, I don't see how CAT scans lie.
Details? And refs?
Unless they weren't her
real Cat scans and doctors lied etc. Then you can take the conspiracy
route. You'd probably be a bit more credible than you are now.
I also find the nurse's "testimony" suspect, but that's just me.
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