Religions > Atheism > Fake "Christian Nation" History Taught In Junior ROTC Program
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
14 May 2007 08:35:53 PM |
| Object: |
Fake "Christian Nation" History Taught In Junior ROTC Program |
Fake "Christian Nation" History Taught In Junior ROTC Program
by Troutfishing
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/5/14/101043/276
[excerpt]
Mon May 14, 2007 at 07:10:43 AM PDT
Department Of Defense Textbook For National Junior ROTC Program Contains
Falsified History
Over the last two months Chris Rodda and I have exposed fake history that's
being taught at hundreds of US high schools and yesterday I uncovered the
fact that fake history is being taught on even a far larger scale in
American public schools.
In any given year, about 1/2 million American high school students are
enrolled in the Junior ROTC program, and from this group will emerge many
of America's future military and political leaders...
These future leaders are being taught a warped historical view fabricated
by the American Christian right to weaken church state separation and
justify its push to remake America, into a "Christian nation"...
* Troutfishing's diary :: ::
*
Here is a link to the JROTC curriculum in question:
http://www.rotc.monroe.army.mil/...
It's a 7.9 megabyte PDF, on the far right of the page, unit 6, page 72.
Chris Rodda analyzes the specific historical falsification at this Talk To
Action post :
http://www.talk2action.org/...
Last Saturday, I discovered that falsified history, written to support
the claim that America was founded as a "Christian Nation", is embedded in
a Department of Defense core curriculum textbook for Unit 6 of the JROTC
curriculum, in the form of a falsified interpretation of church-state
separation paraphrased from writing by David Barton, who is the leading
American Christian historical revisionist.
You won't find the term "Christian Nation" in the textbook in question,
but the textbook contains a key historical lie on which much of the
"Christian nation" historical myth rests, and that historical lie is neing
taught to an entire generation of America's future leaders.
Excerpt from "Citizenship And American History" ( JROTC Core
Curriculum, Unit 6, Page 72 ) :
"SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
The "separation of church and state"
phrase was taken from an exchange of private
letters between President Thomas Jefferson
and the Baptist Association of Danbury,
Connecticut, shortly after Jefferson became
President. It is not found in any governmental
American document.
The inclusion of protection for the
"free exercise of religion" in the constitution
suggested to the Danbury Baptists that the
right of religious expression was governmentgiven
and therefore the government might
someday attempt to regulate religious
expression. Jefferson shared their concern. He
believed along with the other Founders, that
the First Amendment had been enacted only
to prevent the federal establishment of a
national denomination. He assured them that
they need not fear; that the federal
government would never interfere with the
free exercise of religion.
In summary, the "separation" phrase
so frequently invoked today was rarely
mentioned by any of the Founders; and even
Jefferson’s explanation of his phrase is
diametrically opposed to the manner in which
courts apply it today. "Separation of church
and state" currently means almost exactly the
opposite of what it originally meant.
small group meeting
timekeeper"
The text notes that the passage above has been adapted from the
writings of David Barton
Beyond presenting an interpretation of church-state separation that is
based on historical falsification and which breaks with orthodox historical
interpretations of the principle, the text also seems to suggest that the
principle of church-state separation can be determined, or modified, by
majority vote :
That would be a radical and perverted view, because it would imply that
majorities can simply vote to overwrite fundamental principles and
protections built into the Constitution of The United States, by the
founders, to protect the rights of minorities within US democracy.
Here is Chris Rodda's analysis and thought, at Talk To Action, of the US
taxpayer subsidized falsified history within Unit six of the Junior ROTC
core curriculum produced by the United States Department of Defense:
[excerpt, from The Department of Defense -- Bringing Historical
Revisionism to a High School Near You, by historian Chris Rodda ]
This sort of historical revisionism might be expected in homeschools
and at Christian high schools, such as D. James Kennedy's own Westminster
Academy, and the spreading of it by these means is bad enough. But now, bit
by bit, this same historical revisionism is making its way into our public
schools. I've already written extensively about how this is being
accomplished via the National Council On Bible Curriculum In Public Schools
(NCBCPS) course. The NCBCPS, however, is not the only source of bad history
in our public high schools. There is another, which, unlike the NCBCPS, is
not produced by a private organization, but by the Department of Defense --
for the JROTC program....
Before even getting to the historical inaccuracy of the Barton
explanation of Jefferson's letter, and disregarding the disturbing fact
that anything by Barton appears in an official Department of Defense
history text being used in our high schools, I think an important question
needs to be asked. Why is the issue of separation between church and state
in this chapter in the first place? The lessons in this chapter teach the
cadets to decide on a position on an issue by majority rule, and then form
a plan to promote that position. This is appropriate for the other examples
that follow in the textbook, such as whether or not the voting age should
be lowered to sixteen, but to foster the notion that a fundamental
principle like church/state separation is subject to majority rule is
incredible. To present what is described as "one perspective" on this issue
when that "perspective" is based on inaccurate history is beyond
incredible.
***
What drove Monica Goodling and her fellow 150-odd graduates of Pat
Robertson's Regent University, to work as die-hard Bush Administration
loyalists, firing US state attorneys and doing other administration
political hatchet work ? The Bush Administration has stuffed the federal
bureaucracy with Christian right ideologues, and their loyalty is based on
the very real sense that the Bush Administration has been committed to
advancing the theocratic goals of the Christian right as a political
movement.
The "Faith Based Initiative" involves more than just money, though the
money involved is far greater than most realize (it's just that the bulk of
money dispensed is put out by US states, and few have tracked the money but
it is almost certainly in the billions of dollars). The Bush
Administration's "Faith Based Initiative" is about precedent as much as
money; it's about tilting the regulatory playing field to the benefit of
religious charities providing social services and so instituting a
two-tiered systems, one for secular social service agencies and one for
religious social service agencies (see this recent NYT story) and creating
such mind-blowing "innovations" such as the new "church court" program
that's expanding across the US this summer ( read about it on talk To
Action ).
The power Monica Goodling wielded was, for her official position, possibly
unprecedented, and Regent University wasn't the only Christian right
institution feeding committed partisans to do the Bush Administration's
dirty work : Patrick Henry College, Jerry Falwell's Liberty University, and
many other similar training institutions have fed activists to the Bush
Administration, for placement in the federal government, at many levels of
power.
Underneath it all, what drove Monica Goodling and her fellows, lies the
belief that the original intention of the founders, who intended the US to
be a "Christian nation", has been subverted...
[end excerpt]
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Fake "Christian Nation" History Taught In Junior ROTC Program |
16 May 2007 06:07:08 AM |
|
|
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|On May 14, 8:35 pm, wrote:
:|> Fake "Christian Nation" History Taught In Junior ROTC Program
:|> by Troutfishinghttp://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/5/14/101043/276
:|> [excerpt]
:|>
:|> Mon May 14, 2007 at 07:10:43 AM PDT
:|>
:|> Department Of Defense Textbook For National Junior ROTC Program Contains
:|> Falsified History
:|>
:|> Over the last two months Chris Rodda and I have exposed fake history that's
:|> being taught at hundreds of US high schools and yesterday I uncovered the
:|> fact that fake history is being taught on even a far larger scale in
:|> American public schools.
:|>
:|> In any given year, about 1/2 million American high school students are
:|> enrolled in the Junior ROTC program, and from this group will emerge many
:|> of America's future military and political leaders...
:|>
:|> These future leaders are being taught a warped historical view fabricated
:|> by the American Christian right to weaken church state separation and
:|> justify its push to remake America, into a "Christian nation"...
:|>
:|> * Troutfishing's diary :: ::
:|> *
:|>
:|> Here is a link to the JROTC curriculum in question:
:|>
:|> http://www.rotc.monroe.army.mil/...
:|>
:|> It's a 7.9 megabyte PDF, on the far right of the page, unit 6, page 72.
:|>
:|> Chris Rodda analyzes the specific historical falsification at this Talk To
:|> Action post :
:|>
:|> http://www.talk2action.org/...
:|>
:|> Last Saturday, I discovered that falsified history, written to support
:|> the claim that America was founded as a "Christian Nation", is embedded in
:|> a Department of Defense core curriculum textbook for Unit 6 of the JROTC
:|> curriculum, in the form of a falsified interpretation of church-state
:|> separation paraphrased from writing by David Barton, who is the leading
:|> American Christian historical revisionist.
:|>
:|> You won't find the term "Christian Nation" in the textbook in question,
:|> but the textbook contains a key historical lie on which much of the
:|> "Christian nation" historical myth rests, and that historical lie is neing
:|> taught to an entire generation of America's future leaders.
:|>
:|> Excerpt from "Citizenship And American History" ( JROTC Core
:|> Curriculum, Unit 6, Page 72 ) :
:|>
:|> "SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
:|>
:|> The "separation of church and state"
:|> phrase was taken from an exchange of private
:|> letters between President Thomas Jefferson
:|> and the Baptist Association of Danbury,
:|> Connecticut, shortly after Jefferson became
:|> President. It is not found in any governmental
:|> American document.
:|>
:|> The inclusion of protection for the
:|> "free exercise of religion" in the constitution
:|> suggested to the Danbury Baptists that the
:|> right of religious expression was governmentgiven
:|> and therefore the government might
:|> someday attempt to regulate religious
:|> expression. Jefferson shared their concern. He
:|> believed along with the other Founders, that
:|> the First Amendment had been enacted only
:|> to prevent the federal establishment of a
:|> national denomination. He assured them that
:|> they need not fear; that the federal
:|> government would never interfere with the
:|> free exercise of religion.
:|>
:|> In summary, the "separation" phrase
:|> so frequently invoked today was rarely
:|> mentioned by any of the Founders; and even
:|> Jefferson's explanation of his phrase is
:|> diametrically opposed to the manner in which
:|> courts apply it today. "Separation of church
:|> and state" currently means almost exactly the
:|> opposite of what it originally meant.
:|> small group meeting
:|> timekeeper"
:|>
:|> The text notes that the passage above has been adapted from the
:|> writings of David Barton
:|>
:|> Beyond presenting an interpretation of church-state separation that is
:|> based on historical falsification and which breaks with orthodox historical
:|> interpretations of the principle, the text also seems to suggest that the
:|> principle of church-state separation can be determined, or modified, by
:|> majority vote :
:|>
:|> That would be a radical and perverted view, because it would imply that
:|> majorities can simply vote to overwrite fundamental principles and
:|> protections built into the Constitution of The United States, by the
:|> founders, to protect the rights of minorities within US democracy.
:|>
:|
:|Sorta like taking the right to life from babies, ignoring the right to
:|religious expression, or such? By the way, show me the word
:|"separation" in the Constitution...you are proving the textbook right
:|by your own post.
:|
:|Ken Clifton
:|christiansuperhero.com
The Christian Troll and internet idiot
This is the same guy that couldn't tell the differnce from the Continental
Congress and the Constitutional convention. (grin)
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.politics.misc/msg/f1669d05548e30a3?hl=en&
Now to prove that the legal Orinciple is embodied in the US Constitution I
will quote a man who knew far more about it than you would ever hjope to
know
James Madison on Separation of Church and State
Direct references to separation to be found in the writings of James
Madison
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qmadison.htm
----------------------------------------
OCTOBER 1, 1803
Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and additions, etc [1]
(3) after "assure"-are proposed "in due season, and under prudent
arrangements, important aids to our Treasury, as well as," an ample etc.
Quere: if the two or three succeeding paragraphs be not more
adapted to the separate and subsequent communication, if adopted as above
suggested.
(4) For the first sentence, may be substituted "In the territory between
the Mississippi and the Ohio another valuable acquisition has been made by
a treaty etc."[3.] As it stands, it does not sufficiently distinguish the
nature of the one acquisition from that of the other, and seems to imply
that the acquisition from France was wholly on the other side of the
Mississippi
May it not be as well to omit the detail of the stipulated
considerations, and particularly that of the Roman Catholic Pastor. The
jealousy of some may see in it a principle, not according with the
exemption of Religion from Civil power. In the Indian Treaty it will be
less noticed than in a President's speech.[4.]
FOOTNOTES:
[1.] For TJ's third annual message to Congress, Oct. 17, 1803, see Ford,
VIII, pp. 266-7)
[3.] TI's message announced the acquisition of territory by treaty from the
Kaskaskia Indians; see
Ford, VIII, pp. 269-70.
[4.] TJ accepted JM's suggestion to omit any discussion of Indian treaty
requirements to maintain a Roman Catholic priest, leaving the stipulations
in the treaty to "the competence of both
houses.... as soon as the senate shall have advised its ratification"; see
ibid.
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, Washington, Oct.
1, 1803, Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and
additions, etc.[1.],
The Republic of Letters, the Correspondence between Thomas Jefferson and
James Madison, 1776-1826, Edited by James Morton Smith, Vol. II, 1790
-1804, W. W. Norton & Company, New York, London, (1995) pp 1297-98)
---------------------------------------------------
JUNE 3, 1811
"To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I
have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to the
Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem
Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical
distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the
purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States,
I could not have other wise discharged my duty on the
occasion which presented itself"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June
3, 1811. Letters And Other Writings of James Madison Fourth President Of
The United States In Four Volumes Published By the Order Of Congress,
Vol..II, J. B. Lippincott & Co., Philadelphia, (1865) pp 511-512)
-----------------------------------------------------------
MARCH 2, 1819
"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated
hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions
with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of
the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly
increased by the total separation of the church from the State."
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excert of a letter to Robert Walsh from James
Madison. MARCH 2, 1819 Letters and Other writings of James Madison, in
Four Volumes, Published by Order of Congress. VOL. III, J. B. Lippincott &
Co. Philadelphia, (1865), pp 121-126. James Madison on Religious Liberty,
Robert S.Alley, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y. (1985) pp 82-83)
----------------------------------------------------------
1817-1833
"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and Gov't in the
Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by
Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents' already furnished
in their short history"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt from Madison's Detached Memoranda. This
document was discovered in 1946 among the papers of William Cabell Rives, a
biographer of Madison. Scholars date these observations in Madison's hand
sometime between 1817 and 1832. The entire document was published by
Elizabeth Fleet in the William and Mary Quarterly of October 1946.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
JULY 10, 1822
"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation
between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have
no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done,
in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity
the less they are mixed together"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt of letter to Edward Livingston from James
Madison, July 10, 1822. Letters and Other writings of James Madison, in
Four Volumes, Published by Order of Congress. VOL. III, J. B. Lippincott &
Co. Philadelphia, (1865), pp 273-276. James Madison on Religious Liberty,
Robert S.Alley, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y. (1985) pp 82-83)
--------------------------------------------------------------
SEPTEMBER 1833
"I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to
trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the civil
authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on
unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other
or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them will be best guarded
against by entire abstinence of the government from interference in any way
whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting
each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others".
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter written by James Madison to Rev. Jasper
Adams, September, 1833.Writings of James Madison, edited by Gaillard Hunt,
[not sure what the volume number is but have enough information presented
here to locate the letter] microform Z1236.L53, pp 484-488. )
***********************************************************************
Once more your ognoracne has been exposed
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.
|
|
|
| User: "Wide Eyed in Wonder" |
|
| Title: Re: Fake "Christian Nation" History Taught In Junior ROTC Program |
16 May 2007 07:46:38 AM |
|
|
On May 16, 6:07 am, wrote:
Wide Eyed in Wonder <kand...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|On May 14, 8:35 pm, wrote:
:|> Fake "Christian Nation" History Taught In Junior ROTC Program
:|> by Troutfishinghttp://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/5/14/101043/276
:|> [excerpt]
:|>
:|> Mon May 14, 2007 at 07:10:43 AM PDT
:|>
:|> Department Of Defense Textbook For National Junior ROTC Program Cont=
ains
:|> Falsified History
:|>
:|> Over the last two months Chris Rodda and I have exposed fake history=
that's
:|> being taught at hundreds of US high schools and yesterday I uncovere=
d the
:|> fact that fake history is being taught on even a far larger scale in
:|> American public schools.
:|>
:|> In any given year, about 1/2 million American high school students a=
re
:|> enrolled in the Junior ROTC program, and from this group will emerge=
many
:|> of America's future military and political leaders...
:|>
:|> These future leaders are being taught a warped historical view fabri=
cated
:|> by the American Christian right to weaken church state separation and
:|> justify its push to remake America, into a "Christian nation"...
:|>
:|> * Troutfishing's diary :: ::
:|> *
:|>
:|> Here is a link to the JROTC curriculum in question:
:|>
:|>http://www.rotc.monroe.army.mil/...
:|>
:|> It's a 7.9 megabyte PDF, on the far right of the page, unit 6, page =
72.
:|>
:|> Chris Rodda analyzes the specific historical falsification at this T=
alk To
:|> Action post :
:|>
:|>http://www.talk2action.org/...
:|>
:|> Last Saturday, I discovered that falsified history, written to s=
upport
:|> the claim that America was founded as a "Christian Nation", is embe=
dded in
:|> a Department of Defense core curriculum textbook for Unit 6 of the J=
ROTC
:|> curriculum, in the form of a falsified interpretation of church-state
:|> separation paraphrased from writing by David Barton, who is the lead=
ing
:|> American Christian historical revisionist.
:|>
:|> You won't find the term "Christian Nation" in the textbook in qu=
estion,
:|> but the textbook contains a key historical lie on which much of the
:|> "Christian nation" historical myth rests, and that historical lie is=
neing
:|> taught to an entire generation of America's future leaders.
:|>
:|> Excerpt from "Citizenship And American History" ( JROTC Core
:|> Curriculum, Unit 6, Page 72 ) :
:|>
:|> "SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
:|>
:|> The "separation of church and state"
:|> phrase was taken from an exchange of private
:|> letters between President Thomas Jefferson
:|> and the Baptist Association of Danbury,
:|> Connecticut, shortly after Jefferson became
:|> President. It is not found in any governmental
:|> American document.
:|>
:|> The inclusion of protection for the
:|> "free exercise of religion" in the constitution
:|> suggested to the Danbury Baptists that the
:|> right of religious expression was governmentgiven
:|> and therefore the government might
:|> someday attempt to regulate religious
:|> expression. Jefferson shared their concern. He
:|> believed along with the other Founders, that
:|> the First Amendment had been enacted only
:|> to prevent the federal establishment of a
:|> national denomination. He assured them that
:|> they need not fear; that the federal
:|> government would never interfere with the
:|> free exercise of religion.
:|>
:|> In summary, the "separation" phrase
:|> so frequently invoked today was rarely
:|> mentioned by any of the Founders; and even
:|> Jefferson's explanation of his phrase is
:|> diametrically opposed to the manner in which
:|> courts apply it today. "Separation of church
:|> and state" currently means almost exactly the
:|> opposite of what it originally meant.
:|> small group meeting
:|> timekeeper"
:|>
:|> The text notes that the passage above has been adapted from the
:|> writings of David Barton
:|>
:|> Beyond presenting an interpretation of church-state separation that =
is
:|> based on historical falsification and which breaks with orthodox his=
torical
:|> interpretations of the principle, the text also seems to suggest tha=
t the
:|> principle of church-state separation can be determined, or modified,=
by
:|> majority vote :
:|>
:|> That would be a radical and perverted view, because it would imply t=
hat
:|> majorities can simply vote to overwrite fundamental principles and
:|> protections built into the Constitution of The United States, by the
:|> founders, to protect the rights of minorities within US democracy.
:|>
:|
:|Sorta like taking the right to life from babies, ignoring the right to
:|religious expression, or such? By the way, show me the word
:|"separation" in the Constitution...you are proving the textbook right
:|by your own post.
:|
:|Ken Clifton
:|christiansuperhero.com
The Christian Troll and internet idiot
This is the same guy that couldn't tell the differnce from the Continental
Congress and the Constitutional convention. (grin)
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.politics.misc/msg/f1669d05548e30a...
Now to prove that the legal Orinciple is embodied in the US Constitution I
will quote a man who knew far more about it than you would ever hjope to
know
James Madison on Separation of Church and State
Direct references to separation to be found in the writings of James
Madisonhttp://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qmadison.htm
----------------------------------------
OCTOBER 1, 1803
Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and additions, etc [=
1]
(3) after "assure"-are proposed "in due season, and under prudent
arrangements, important aids to our Treasury, as well as," an ample etc.
Quere: if the two or three succeeding paragraphs be not more
adapted to the separate and subsequent communication, if adopted as above
suggested.
(4) For the first sentence, may be substituted "In the territory between
the Mississippi and the Ohio another valuable acquisition has been made by
a treaty etc."[3.] As it stands, it does not sufficiently distinguish the
nature of the one acquisition from that of the other, and seems to imply
that the acquisition from France was wholly on the other side of the
Mississippi
May it not be as well to omit the detail of the stipulated
considerations, and particularly that of the Roman Catholic Pastor. The
jealousy of some may see in it a principle, not according with the
exemption of Religion from Civil power. In the Indian Treaty it will be
less noticed than in a President's speech.[4.]
FOOTNOTES:
[1.] For TJ's third annual message to Congress, Oct. 17, 1803, see Ford,
VIII, pp. 266-7)
[3.] TI's message announced the acquisition of territory by treaty from t=
he
Kaskaskia Indians; see
Ford, VIII, pp. 269-70.
[4.] TJ accepted JM's suggestion to omit any discussion of Indian treaty
requirements to maintain a Roman Catholic priest, leaving the stipulations
in the treaty to "the competence of both
houses.... as soon as the senate shall have advised its ratification"; see
ibid.
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, Washington, Oc=
t=2E
1, 1803, Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and
additions, etc.[1.],
The Republic of Letters, the Correspondence between Thomas Jefferson and
James Madison, 1776-1826, Edited by James Morton Smith, Vol. II, 1790
-1804, W. W. Norton & Company, New York, London, (1995) pp 1297-98)
---------------------------------------------------
JUNE 3, 1811
"To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I
have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to t=
he
Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem
Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical
distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the
purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United State=
s,
I could not have other wise discharged my duty on the
occasion which presented itself"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June
3, 1811. Letters And Other Writings of James Madison Fourth President Of
The United States In Four Volumes Published By the Order Of Congress,
Vol..II, J. B. Lippincott & Co., Philadelphia, (1865) pp 511-512)
-----------------------------------------------------------
MARCH 2, 1819
"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated
hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions
with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality =
of
the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly
increased by the total separation of the church from the State."
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excert of a letter to Robert Walsh from James
Madison. MARCH 2, 1819 Letters and Other writings of James Madison, in
Four Volumes, Published by Order of Congress. VOL. III, J. B. Lippincott &
Co. Philadelphia, (1865), pp 121-126. James Madison on Religious Liberty,
Robert S.Alley, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y. (1985) pp 82-83)
----------------------------------------------------------
1817-1833
"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and Gov't in the
Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by
Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents' already furnished
in their short history"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt from Madison's Detached Memoranda. This
document was discovered in 1946 among the papers of William Cabell Rives,=
a
biographer of Madison. Scholars date these observations in Madison's hand
sometime between 1817 and 1832. The entire document was published by
Elizabeth Fleet in the William and Mary Quarterly of October 1946.
...
read more =BB
Bob, Carol, Bob and Carole, Buckeye...whatever you want to be called.
Are you going to respond to any point or just try to distract with
attacks on me? You are revealing the weakness of your position.
Ken Clifton
christiansuperhero.com
.
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| User: "Bob LeChevalier" |
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| Title: Re: Fake "Christian Nation" History Taught In Junior ROTC Program |
16 May 2007 09:24:21 AM |
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Wide Eyed in Wonder <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
Bob, Carol, Bob and Carole, Buckeye...whatever you want to be called.
Are you going to respond to any point or just try to distract with
attacks on me? You are revealing the weakness of your position.
He is ignoring you, because your posts have NO point, and indeed have
nothing to do with whatever he posted. You aren't worth his limited
time to respond to.
lojbab
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