| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
09 Dec 2004 04:22:31 PM |
| Object: |
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
One of World's Leading Atheists Now Believes in God, More or Less,
Based on Scientific Evidence
AP
NEW YORK Dec 9, 2004 - A British philosophy professor who has been a
leading champion of atheism for more than a half-century has changed
his mind. He now believes in God more or less based on scientific
evidence, and says so on a video released Thursday.
At age 81, after decades of insisting belief is a mistake, Antony Flew
has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have
created the universe. A super-intelligence is the only good explanation
for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew said in a
telephone interview from England.
Flew said he's best labeled a deist like Thomas Jefferson, whose God
was not actively involved in people's lives.
"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and
far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as
omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said. "It
could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a
purpose, I suppose."
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Flew first made his mark with the 1950 article "Theology and
Falsification," based on a paper for the Socratic Club, a weekly Oxford
religious forum led by writer and Christian thinker C.S. Lewis.
Over the years, Flew proclaimed the lack of evidence for God while
teaching at Oxford, Aberdeen, Keele, and Reading universities in
Britain, in visits to numerous U.S. and Canadian campuses and in books,
articles, lectures and debates.
There was no one moment of change but a gradual conclusion over recent
months for Flew, a spry man who still does not believe in an afterlife.
Yet biologists' investigation of DNA "has shown, by the almost
unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce
(life), that intelligence must have been involved," Flew says in the
new video, "Has Science Discovered God?"
The video draws from a New York discussion last May organized by author
Roy Abraham Varghese's Institute for Metascientific Research in
Garland, Texas. Participants were Flew; Varghese; Israeli physicist
Gerald Schroeder, an Orthodox Jew; and Roman Catholic philosopher John
Haldane of Scotland's University of St. Andrews.
The first hint of Flew's turn was a letter to the August-September
issue of Britain's Philosophy Now magazine. "It has become inordinately
difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic
theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism," he wrote.
The letter commended arguments in Schroeder's "The Hidden Face of God"
and "The Wonder of the World" by Varghese, an Eastern Rite Catholic
layman.
This week, Flew finished writing the first formal account of his new
outlook for the introduction to a new edition of his "God and
Philosophy," scheduled for release next year by Prometheus Press.
Prometheus specializes in skeptical thought, but if his belief upsets
people, well "that's too bad," Flew said. "My whole life has been
guided by the principle of Plato's Socrates: Follow the evidence,
wherever it leads."
Last week, Richard Carrier, a writer and Columbia University graduate
student, posted new material based on correspondence with Flew on the
atheistic www.infidels.org Web page. Carrier assured atheists that Flew
accepts only a "minimal God" and believes in no afterlife.
Flew's "name and stature are big. Whenever you hear people talk about
atheists, Flew always comes up," Carrier said. Still, when it comes to
Flew's reversal, "apart from curiosity, I don't think it's like a big
deal."
Flew told The Associated Press his current ideas have some similarity
with American "intelligent design" theorists, who see evidence for a
guiding force in the construction of the universe. He accepts Darwinian
evolution but doubts it can explain the ultimate origins of life.
A Methodist minister's son, Flew became an atheist at 15.
Early in his career, he argued that no conceivable events could
constitute proof against God for believers, so skeptics were right to
wonder whether the concept of God meant anything at all.
Another landmark was his 1984 "The Presumption of Atheism," playing off
the presumption of innocence in criminal law. Flew said the debate over
God must begin by presuming atheism, putting the burden of proof on
those arguing that God exists.
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| User: "Denis Loubet" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
09 Dec 2004 05:11:14 PM |
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<rcman777@excite.com> wrote in message
news:1102630951.044801.228710@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
So what?
Now if he had evidence, or an argument something other than one of personal
incredulity, that would BE something.
--
Denis Loubet
dloubet@io.com
http://www.io.com/~dloubet
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| User: "Doc Smartass" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
09 Dec 2004 05:59:05 PM |
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wrote in
news:1102630951.044801.228710@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
....but not your god, crackhead.
--
Dr. Smartass -- BAAWA Knight of Heckling -- a.a. #1939
*sig broken; watch for finger*
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| User: "Ash" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
10 Dec 2004 05:16:39 AM |
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wrote:
"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and
far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as
omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said. "It
could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a
purpose, I suppose."
Shouldn't that be god rather than God?
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| User: "Witziges Rätsel" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
10 Dec 2004 07:27:58 AM |
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One of World's Leading Atheists Now Believes in God, More or Less,
Based on Scientific Evidence
Who is he "leading"?
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| User: "Don Kresch" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
09 Dec 2004 05:46:36 PM |
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In alt.atheism on 9 Dec 2004 14:22:31 -0800, let
us all know that:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
So what?
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
10 Dec 2004 10:40:12 AM |
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In our last episode
<1102630951.044801.228710@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, rcman777 lept out
of the bushes shouting:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
"Famous" in the sense of "almost nobody's heard of him."
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
10 Dec 2004 11:06:09 AM |
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In article <JuadnaV9hY0rTSTcRVn-iA@megapath.net> "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> writes:
In our last episode
<1102630951.044801.228710@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, rcman777 lept out
of the bushes shouting:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
"Famous" in the sense of "almost nobody's heard of him."
Well, there is a certain segment of the skeptical movement which
is very concered with setting up some kind of theoretical
underpinning for humanism, the ideologues as it were (and
I don't mean the word in any pejorative sense). Paul
Kurtz with his books on what he terms "Eupraxophy"
is a leading example. Here are some other books
by Kurtz, just to give you the flavor of the thing:
Skepticism and Humanism: The New Paradigm
The New Skepticism: Inquiry and Reliable Knowledge
Philosophical Essays in Pragmatic Naturalism
Forbidden Fruit: The Ethics of Humanism
The Humanist Alternative
Humanist Manifestos I and II
Decision and the Condition of Man
These folks write lengthy articles about the Enlightment
philosophers and suchlike, and in our time mention
is frequently made of names like Bertrand Russell and,
yes, Anthony Flew.
I suspect we'll be seeing lots of commentary on this in
the Skeptical Inquirer and Free Inquiry and other similar
sources.
-- cary
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| User: "ernobe" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
11 Dec 2004 03:20:01 PM |
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Well, there is a certain segment of the skeptical movement which
is very concered with setting up some kind of theoretical
underpinning for humanism, the ideologues as it were (and
If atheists and humanists would be more honest with themselves, they could
not help but realize that they are neither concerned with God or humanity:
they have a historic agenda to undue the work accomplished in the history of
knowledge by organized religions. As their own organization must be based on
what is left of organized religion, they will accomplish nothing until they
realize this.
--
http://www.costarricense.cr/pagina/ernobe
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
11 Dec 2004 03:48:19 PM |
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"ernobe" <ernobe@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3216k1F3f819gU2@individual.net...
Well, there is a certain segment of the skeptical movement which
is very concered with setting up some kind of theoretical
underpinning for humanism, the ideologues as it were (and
If atheists and humanists would be more honest with themselves, they could
not help but realize that they are neither concerned with God or humanity:
they have a historic agenda to undue the work accomplished in the history
of
knowledge by organized religions. As their own organization must be based
on
what is left of organized religion, they will accomplish nothing until
they
realize this.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. While of course I'm not concerned with "god", I am
very concerned about humanity. Prove otherwise.
What you wrote was both shitty and dishonest. But, you're a christian,
right?
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
11 Dec 2004 04:47:28 PM |
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In our last episode <3216k1F3f819gU2@individual.net>, ernobe lept out of
the bushes shouting:
Well, there is a certain segment of the skeptical movement which is very
concered with setting up some kind of theoretical underpinning for
humanism, the ideologues as it were (and
If atheists and humanists would be more honest with themselves, they could
not help but realize that they are neither concerned with God or humanity:
they have a historic agenda to undue the work accomplished in the history
of knowledge by organized religions. As their own organization must be
based on what is left of organized religion, they will accomplish nothing
until they realize this.
Except that's utterly wrong.
Which seems normal for you...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "Ash" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
12 Dec 2004 02:05:42 AM |
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ernobe wrote:
Well, there is a certain segment of the skeptical movement which
is very concered with setting up some kind of theoretical
underpinning for humanism, the ideologues as it were (and
If atheists and humanists would be more honest with themselves, they could
not help but realize that they are neither concerned with God or humanity:
they have a historic agenda to undue the work accomplished in the history of
knowledge by organized religions. As their own organization must be based on
what is left of organized religion, they will accomplish nothing until they
realize this.
what organisation? THe EAC?
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
10 Dec 2004 07:21:33 PM |
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In our last episode <cpcl21$ads$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu>, Cary Kittrell
lept out of the bushes shouting:
In article <JuadnaV9hY0rTSTcRVn-iA@megapath.net> "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> writes:
In our last episode
<1102630951.044801.228710@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, rcman777 lept
out of the bushes shouting:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
"Famous" in the sense of "almost nobody's heard of him."
Well, there is a certain segment of the skeptical movement which is very
concered with setting up some kind of theoretical underpinning for
humanism, the ideologues as it were (and I don't mean the word in any
pejorative sense). Paul Kurtz with his books on what he terms
"Eupraxophy" is a leading example. Here are some other books by Kurtz,
just to give you the flavor of the thing:
Skepticism and Humanism: The New Paradigm The New Skepticism: Inquiry
and Reliable Knowledge Philosophical Essays in Pragmatic Naturalism
Forbidden Fruit: The Ethics of Humanism The Humanist Alternative
Humanist Manifestos I and II
Decision and the Condition of Man
These folks write lengthy articles about the Enlightment philosophers and
suchlike, and in our time mention is frequently made of names like
Bertrand Russell and, yes, Anthony Flew.
I suspect we'll be seeing lots of commentary on this in the Skeptical
Inquirer and Free Inquiry and other similar sources.
Huh. No wonder I've never heard of him. Philosophy puts me in a coma...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
10 Dec 2004 02:43:52 PM |
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On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:40:12 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo"
<alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode
<1102630951.044801.228710@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, rcman777 lept out
of the bushes shouting:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
"Famous" in the sense of "almost nobody's heard of him."
One man changes his mind and the news sweeps the earth, Yawn.
drift
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| User: "Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
10 Dec 2004 02:13:35 PM |
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On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 10:40:12 -0600, "Mark K. Bilbo" <alt-atheism@org.webmaster> wrote:
In our last episode
<1102630951.044801.228710@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, rcman777 lept out
of the bushes shouting:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
"Famous" in the sense of "almost nobody's heard of him."
Yes, in that sense, he's spectacularly famous.
The science of name recognition is about to go nova.
--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; Billions Served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
For e-mail, hold that tiger!
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| User: "Vic Sagerquist" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
09 Dec 2004 08:08:44 PM |
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On 09 Dec 2004, dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:
"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and
far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as
omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said. "It
could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a
purpose, I suppose."
He's become a deist, dimwit. IOW god, not God. Not one mention of Jeebus
either, I see.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
10 Dec 2004 05:28:31 PM |
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On 9 Dec 2004 14:22:31 -0800, wrote:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
One of World's Leading Atheists Now Believes in God, More or Less,
Based on Scientific Evidence
Just goes to show, how old age can ***** your head .
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| User: "Mindless Drooling Libruls" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
10 Dec 2004 05:35:34 PM |
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"Dubh Ghall" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:g6ckr0945l4r6foo4eho8lbfhggho8dge1@4ax.com...
On 9 Dec 2004 14:22:31 -0800, wrote:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
One of World's Leading Atheists Now Believes in God, More or Less,
Based on Scientific Evidence
Just goes to show, how old age can ***** your head .
Yet many of the disciples of the Atheist Faith are noted for making the
claim that religious belief is the "childish belief" and that as a person
gets older and wiser they gravitate towards a "more rational" faith such as
Atheism. Here, the exact opposite has happened.
Oh well, another theory of the followers of the Atheist Faith shot to
hell....
(figuratively speaking, of course)
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| User: "Elf M. Sternberg" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
10 Dec 2004 06:07:34 PM |
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"Mindless Drooling Libruls" <LibFoolz@DemWhackjobs.com> writes:
Here, the exact opposite has happened.
No atheist ever denied that, in moments of weakness, adults
cannot revert to childish ways.
Elf
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| User: "Ash" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
11 Dec 2004 04:34:51 AM |
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Mindless Drooling Libruls wrote:
"Dubh Ghall" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:g6ckr0945l4r6foo4eho8lbfhggho8dge1@4ax.com...
On 9 Dec 2004 14:22:31 -0800, wrote:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
One of World's Leading Atheists Now Believes in God, More or Less,
Based on Scientific Evidence
Just goes to show, how old age can ***** your head .
Yet many of the disciples of the Atheist Faith are noted for making the
claim that religious belief is the "childish belief" and that as a person
gets older and wiser they gravitate towards a "more rational" faith such as
Atheism. Here, the exact opposite has happened.
Do you believe that ot are you just lying?
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
11 Dec 2004 08:07:03 AM |
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On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 23:35:34 GMT, "Mindless Drooling Libruls"
<LibFoolz@DemWhackjobs.com> wrote:
"Dubh Ghall" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:g6ckr0945l4r6foo4eho8lbfhggho8dge1@4ax.com...
On 9 Dec 2004 14:22:31 -0800, wrote:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
One of World's Leading Atheists Now Believes in God, More or Less,
Based on Scientific Evidence
Just goes to show, how old age can ***** your head .
Yet many of the disciples of the Atheist Faith are noted for making the
claim that religious belief is the "childish belief" and that as a person
gets older and wiser they gravitate towards a "more rational" faith such as
Atheism.
Who made that claim?
Here, the exact opposite has happened.
A person became more irrational? Yes, it certainly seems that way;
and, since senility is a very well-known phenomenon, that is a very
likely explanation.
Oh well, another theory of the followers of the Atheist Faith shot to
hell....
Another strawman shot down by its creator - including the obviously
deliberate insult i.e. "Atheist Faith". You don't have much do you?
(figuratively speaking, of course)
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| User: "Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
10 Dec 2004 06:43:04 PM |
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On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 23:35:34 GMT, "Mindless Drooling Libruls" <LibFoolz@DemWhackjobs.com> wrote:
"Dubh Ghall" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:g6ckr0945l4r6foo4eho8lbfhggho8dge1@4ax.com...
On 9 Dec 2004 14:22:31 -0800, wrote:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
One of World's Leading Atheists Now Believes in God, More or Less,
Based on Scientific Evidence
Just goes to show, how old age can ***** your head .
Yet many of the disciples of the Atheist Faith are noted for making the
claim that religious belief is the "childish belief" and that as a person
gets older and wiser they gravitate towards a "more rational" faith such as
Atheism.
Cite or be seen a liar.
Here, the exact opposite has happened.
Oh well, another theory of the followers of the Atheist Faith shot to
hell....
(figuratively speaking, of course)
--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; Billions Served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
For e-mail, hold that tiger!
.
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
11 Dec 2004 08:07:04 AM |
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On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:43:04 -0500, Apostate
<Apostate.invalid@yeehaw.org> wrote:
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 23:35:34 GMT, "Mindless Drooling Libruls" <LibFoolz@DemWhackjobs.com> wrote:
"Dubh Ghall" <puck@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
news:g6ckr0945l4r6foo4eho8lbfhggho8dge1@4ax.com...
On 9 Dec 2004 14:22:31 -0800, wrote:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
One of World's Leading Atheists Now Believes in God, More or Less,
Based on Scientific Evidence
Just goes to show, how old age can ***** your head .
Yet many of the disciples of the Atheist Faith are noted for making the
claim that religious belief is the "childish belief" and that as a person
gets older and wiser they gravitate towards a "more rational" faith such as
Atheism.
Cite or be seen a liar.
Too late.
snip
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| User: "Rune Børsjø" |
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| Title: Re: Famous Atheist Now Believes in God |
09 Dec 2004 10:05:20 PM |
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On 9 Dec 2004 14:22:31 -0800, wrote:
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
He's 81 years old, of course he believes in god. Plus he used to be a
philosophy professor, and now on his old days he seems to think he's a
phycisist.
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