| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Lannie Ruvin" |
| Date: |
30 May 2004 08:58:49 PM |
| Object: |
Flawed Prayer Study |
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1227841,00.html
Also this:
http://www.valleyskeptic.com/Prayer_Study_Flawed_and_Fraud.html
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| User: "W. Syme" |
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| Title: Re: Flawed Prayer Study |
30 May 2004 10:07:43 PM |
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On 30 May 2004 18:58:49 -0700, (Lannie Ruvin)
wrote:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1227841,00.html
Also this:
http://www.valleyskeptic.com/Prayer_Study_Flawed_and_Fraud.html
The obvserver article says that conman took a masters in
parapsychology. Wtf? How can there be a university giving courses in a
mythical subject? Why not have courses in ufology or bigfoot research.
--
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
W. Syme (pseudonym), European, non-native English speaker, "soft" atheist.
Email will not be read.
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| User: "bardi" |
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| Title: Re: Flawed Prayer Study |
30 May 2004 10:39:24 PM |
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"W. Syme" <Winston.Syme.superstitions@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:23f2738c45dd5c211dfefad53b898214@news.1usenet.com...
On 30 May 2004 18:58:49 -0700, (Lannie Ruvin)
wrote:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1227841,00.html
Also this:
http://www.valleyskeptic.com/Prayer_Study_Flawed_and_Fraud.html
The obvserver article says that conman took a masters in
parapsychology. Wtf? How can there be a university giving courses in a
mythical subject? Why not have courses in ufology or bigfoot research.
Several Universitys do have departments of Parapsychology. How better to
prove that something does or does not exist than to research it?
dnp
bardo
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: Flawed Prayer Study |
31 May 2004 12:43:25 AM |
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"bardi" <toriley@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:ONxuc.2250$pE2.1489@fe37.usenetserver.com...
"W. Syme" <Winston.Syme.superstitions@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:23f2738c45dd5c211dfefad53b898214@news.1usenet.com...
On 30 May 2004 18:58:49 -0700, (Lannie Ruvin)
wrote:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1227841,00.html
Also this:
http://www.valleyskeptic.com/Prayer_Study_Flawed_and_Fraud.html
The obvserver article says that conman took a masters in
parapsychology. Wtf? How can there be a university giving courses in a
mythical subject? Why not have courses in ufology or bigfoot research.
Several Universitys do have departments of Parapsychology. How better to
prove that something does or does not exist than to research it?
I don't see any Departments of Applied Santaclausology.
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| User: "Joe Blow" |
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| Title: Re: Flawed Prayer Study |
31 May 2004 10:55:42 AM |
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Geoff wrote:
"bardi" <toriley@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:ONxuc.2250$pE2.1489@fe37.usenetserver.com...
"W. Syme" <Winston.Syme.superstitions@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:23f2738c45dd5c211dfefad53b898214@news.1usenet.com...
On 30 May 2004 18:58:49 -0700, (Lannie Ruvin)
wrote:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1227841,00.html
Also this:
http://www.valleyskeptic.com/Prayer_Study_Flawed_and_Fraud.html
The obvserver article says that conman took a masters in
parapsychology. Wtf? How can there be a university giving courses in a
mythical subject? Why not have courses in ufology or bigfoot research.
Several Universitys do have departments of Parapsychology. How better to
prove that something does or does not exist than to research it?
I don't see any Departments of Applied Santaclausology.
Most nursery schools have them.
Joe
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| User: "Liz" |
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| Title: Re: Flawed Prayer Study |
31 May 2004 06:21:43 AM |
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On Mon, 31 May 2004 03:07:43 GMT, W. Syme
<Winston.Syme.superstitions@fastmail.fm> in news message
<23f2738c45dd5c211dfefad53b898214@news.1usenet.com> wrote:
On 30 May 2004 18:58:49 -0700, (Lannie Ruvin)
wrote:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1227841,00.html
[-]
The obvserver article says that conman took a masters in
parapsychology. Wtf? How can there be a university giving courses in a
mythical subject?
What are you on about? There are entire schools dedicated to the
study of theology.
Why not have courses in ufology or bigfoot research.
Don't be a mythology snob. Bigfoot is every bit as interesting as
God®.
Liz #658 BAAWA
Liz, you like most people do not want to have faith in
things which have no basis in reality. -- josalt
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Flawed Prayer Study |
31 May 2004 10:52:38 AM |
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On Mon, 31 May 2004 11:21:43 GMT in alt.atheism, Liz (Liz
<ehuth1@donotspam.com>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
On Mon, 31 May 2004 03:07:43 GMT, W. Syme
<Winston.Syme.superstitions@fastmail.fm> in news message
<23f2738c45dd5c211dfefad53b898214@news.1usenet.com> wrote:
On 30 May 2004 18:58:49 -0700, (Lannie Ruvin)
wrote:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1227841,00.html
[-]
The obvserver article says that conman took a masters in
parapsychology. Wtf? How can there be a university giving courses in a
mythical subject?
What are you on about? There are entire schools dedicated to the
study of theology.
Quite so. Some years ago I knew the guy who did the first Ph.D in
parapsychology at Dept. Experimental Psychology, Cambridge University,
England. The then chair of the dept, O. L. Zangwill had always said
that he would allow such a PhD attempt provided the person who wanted
to do it graduated with a first in psychology, was particularly strong
in statistics and not obviously mad. And Carl Sargent did and was and
wasn't.
However, later some considerable doubt was cast on his work by Susan
Blackmore (later, of "Meme Machine fame):
http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/JSPR%201987.htm
Why not have courses in ufology or bigfoot research.
Dunno about bigfoot, but there is a considerable amount of respectable
academic research about UFOs, mainly, as I understand it, in the
context of social and psychiatric anthropology. And fascinating it is.
Don't be a mythology snob. Bigfoot is every bit as interesting as
God®.
Heh. Well, as I understand it from "true believers" hereabouts God is
not amenable to statistical analysis, so much so that the Bell Curve
might well make a better symbol than a crucifix or cross.
On the other hand, it should be possible to test for Psi type powers
using the scientific method, which is what - in the best case - Psi
research tries to do; the respectability of you research being
ultimately dependent upon your experimental design, and later the
replicability of your results - not what you're investigating.
That said, Sue Blackmore cast considerable doubt on this view back in
the 80s, for obscure - but in my ultimately sound - reasons, which I
shall mysteriously not expand upon. Largely because it has been a very
long time.... Well, IIRC, it was all to do with knowing what the
"independent variable" was.
Personally speaking I have no problem with well designed
parapsychological research that meets the general criteria for
bona-fide scientific research, and I really don't think any proper
atheist would[1]. Mind you. then I'd get Randi to look at it, and
possibly win a million dollars.
And again personally speaking, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it
eventually turns out that some forms of Psi exist. But, again,
personally, while I generally distrust "generalist" arguments, it does
occur to me that is Psi existed, it would have massive survival value
and given the fact of natural selection we'd all "have the power". But
clearly we don't.
So there!
[sig snip]
[1]. Yes, ok, National Holiday today, so I thought I'd pick a fight.
Three rounds, a submission, or a knockout.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
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| User: "Liz" |
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| Title: Re: Flawed Prayer Study |
31 May 2004 11:00:17 AM |
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On Mon, 31 May 2004 16:52:38 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in news message
<ivhmb0hfbjrsd9j4cunbn0qrlnn4arv69t@4ax.com> wrote:
[-----]
[1]. Yes, ok, National Holiday today, so I thought I'd pick a fight.
Three rounds, a submission, or a knockout.
If you submit now, we can call it over. You might even be pleased
with the results. :)
Überwench #658 Now a *real* atheist!
Dame Liz the Undaunted Ath.D BAAWA
Charter Member of SMASH
and Queen of the known universe
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Flawed Prayer Study |
31 May 2004 11:54:43 AM |
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On Mon, 31 May 2004 16:00:17 GMT in alt.atheism, Liz (Liz
<ehuth1@donotspam.com>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
On Mon, 31 May 2004 16:52:38 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in news message
<ivhmb0hfbjrsd9j4cunbn0qrlnn4arv69t@4ax.com> wrote:
[-----]
[1]. Yes, ok, National Holiday today, so I thought I'd pick a fight.
Three rounds, a submission, or a knockout.
If you submit now, we can call it over. You might even be pleased
with the results. :)
<sniff> You're no fun at all! </sniff> And probably know far too much
to fall (as it were) for that...!
So just for that I'm off to see Harry Potter in about 10 mins. And
probably argue with the cinema staff about the hotdogs again.... which
I suspect may be slightly more entertaining than the movie.
Mind you, I am looking forward to Arthur. And, alas, the Garfield
movie.
Anyway, time to move. Gotta get good seats....
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: Flawed Prayer Study |
31 May 2004 04:00:58 PM |
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On Mon, 31 May 2004 17:54:43 +0100 in alt.atheism, Therion Ware
(Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com>) said, directing the reply
to alt.atheism
On Mon, 31 May 2004 16:00:17 GMT in alt.atheism, Liz (Liz
<ehuth1@donotspam.com>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
On Mon, 31 May 2004 16:52:38 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> in news message
<ivhmb0hfbjrsd9j4cunbn0qrlnn4arv69t@4ax.com> wrote:
[-----]
[1]. Yes, ok, National Holiday today, so I thought I'd pick a fight.
Three rounds, a submission, or a knockout.
If you submit now, we can call it over. You might even be pleased
with the results. :)
<sniff> You're no fun at all! </sniff> And probably know far too much
to fall (as it were) for that...!
So just for that I'm off to see Harry Potter in about 10 mins. And
probably argue with the cinema staff about the hotdogs again.... which
I suspect may be slightly more entertaining than the movie.
Mind you, I am looking forward to Arthur. And, alas, the Garfield
movie.
Anyway, time to move. Gotta get good seats....
[...]
God knows why. That was getting on for total crap.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Flawed Prayer Study |
30 May 2004 10:38:03 PM |
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On Mon, 31 May 2004, W. Syme wrote:
On 30 May 2004 18:58:49 -0700, (Lannie Ruvin)
wrote:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1227841,00.html
Also this:
http://www.valleyskeptic.com/Prayer_Study_Flawed_and_Fraud.html
The obvserver article says that conman took a masters in
parapsychology. Wtf? How can there be a university giving courses in a
mythical subject? Why not have courses in ufology or bigfoot research.
I don't know Wtf. But I found this:
http://skepdic.com/parapsy.html
Is there such a publication as "Journal of Parapsychology" ??
http://snipurl.com/6rij
" ... The Parapsychology Foundation is Relocating
As some of you already know the Foundation's brownstone--our home for 23
years on Manhattan's Upper East Side--was sold at the end of April. The
Foundation moved for the 4th time in its 52-year history. ..."
http://www.parapsychology.org/dynamic/050100.html
Perhaps parapsychologists are the only ones who think there is such a
thing as parapsychology?
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| User: "bardi" |
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| Title: Re: Flawed Prayer Study |
30 May 2004 10:46:01 PM |
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"Carol Lee Smith" <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.3.96.1040530222919.32215G-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu...
On Mon, 31 May 2004, W. Syme wrote:
On 30 May 2004 18:58:49 -0700, (Lannie Ruvin)
wrote:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1227841,00.html
Also this:
http://www.valleyskeptic.com/Prayer_Study_Flawed_and_Fraud.html
The obvserver article says that conman took a masters in
parapsychology. Wtf? How can there be a university giving courses in a
mythical subject? Why not have courses in ufology or bigfoot research.
I don't know Wtf. But I found this:
http://skepdic.com/parapsy.html
Is there such a publication as "Journal of Parapsychology" ??
http://snipurl.com/6rij
" ... The Parapsychology Foundation is Relocating
As some of you already know the Foundation's brownstone--our home for 23
years on Manhattan's Upper East Side--was sold at the end of April. The
Foundation moved for the 4th time in its 52-year history. ..."
http://www.parapsychology.org/dynamic/050100.html
Perhaps parapsychologists are the only ones who think there is such a
thing as parapsychology?
There is a Journal of Parapsychology.Also a European Journal of
Parapsychology. The former from the Rhine Institute the latter from The
Koestler Parapsychology Unit of the University of Edinburgh.I think part of
the problem here may be a matter of definition. According to the Koestler
site defined as
the study of communication or interaction between organisms and their
environment that do not appear to rely on the established sensorimotor
channels
dnp
bardi
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| User: "Carol Lee Smith" |
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| Title: Re: Flawed Prayer Study |
30 May 2004 09:32:52 PM |
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On 30 May 2004, Lannie Ruvin wrote:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1227841,00.html
Also this:
http://www.valleyskeptic.com/Prayer_Study_Flawed_and_Fraud.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Exposed: conman's role in prayer-power IVF 'miracle'
THE OBSERVER
One of the authors of a university report on infertility has admitted a
multi-million-dollar fraud, reports Paul Harris in New York
Sunday May 30, 2004
<http://www.observer.co.uk/>
It was a miracle that created headlines around the world. Doctors at one
of the world's top medical schools claimed to have scientifically proved
the power of prayer. Many Americans took the Columbia University research
- announced in October 2001 after the terror attacks on New York and
Washington - as a sign from God. It seemed to prove that praying helped
infertile women to conceive.
But The Observer can reveal a story of fraud and cover-up behind the
research. One of the study's authors is a conman obsessed with the
paranormal who has admitted to a multi-million-dollar scam. Daniel
Wirth, now under house arrest in California awaiting sentencing, has
used a series of false identities for several decades, including
that of a dead child.
Wirth is at the centre of a network of bizarre scientific research,
often working with co-researcher Joseph Horvath. Horvath has pleaded
guilty to fraud, has used a series of false names and is accused of
burning down his house for insurance money.
Many scientists are now questioning how someone with Wirth's
background was able to persuade Columbia University Medical Centre
to unveil his research in such a high-profile way. They also want to
know why it appeared in the respected Journal of Reproductive
Medicine, whose vetting procedures are usually strict. 'We are
concerned this study could be totally fraudulent. It is an amazing
saga,' said Dr Bruce Flamm, a clinical professor at the
University of California.
The study claimed to show that a woman's chances of conceiving
through IVF treatment doubled when someone prayed for them. 'IVF is
a very difficult procedure. Increasing the success rate by 100 per
cent would be a huge breakthrough, a revolution,' said Flamm.
The study was based on an IVF programme in Korea. Prayer groups in
the United States, Canada and Australia were shown anonymous
pictures of women on the programme and asked to pray. The subjects
were not told they were part of a study, but the results claimed to
show that the group had double the success rate of a group not being
prayed for.
The research listed three authors of the study: Daniel Wirth and two
Columbia fertility specialists, Dr Kwang Cha and Dr Rogerio Lobo.
Kwang Cha has since left Columbia and now helps to run fertility
clinics in Los Angeles and Korea. Lobo is still at Columbia. Neither
returned phone calls and emails requesting an interview. Wirth's
lawyer, William Arbuckle, also failed to return The Observer's
calls.
On 18 May, Wirth pleaded guilty to multi-million-dollar fraud charges
against US cable telecommunications company Adelphia Communications.
While working for Adelphia, Horvath had steered $2.1 million of
contracts to Wirth. The pair now face up to five years in jail and
up to $250,000 in fines.
---end of excerpt---
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| User: "pan" |
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| Title: Re: Flawed Prayer Study |
31 May 2004 08:14:20 AM |
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On Sun, 30 May 2004 21:32:52 -0500, Carol Lee Smith
<human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
On 30 May 2004, Lannie Ruvin wrote:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1227841,00.html
Also this:
http://www.valleyskeptic.com/Prayer_Study_Flawed_and_Fraud.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Exposed: conman's role in prayer-power IVF 'miracle'
THE OBSERVER
One of the authors of a university report on infertility has admitted a
multi-million-dollar fraud, reports Paul Harris in New York
Sunday May 30, 2004
<http://www.observer.co.uk/>
(snip)
The research listed three authors of the study: Daniel Wirth and two
Columbia fertility specialists, Dr Kwang Cha and Dr Rogerio Lobo.
Kwang Cha has since left Columbia and now helps to run fertility
clinics in Los Angeles and Korea. Lobo is still at Columbia. Neither
returned phone calls and emails requesting an interview. Wirth's
lawyer, William Arbuckle, also failed to return The Observer's
calls.
The story at the 'valleyskeptic' link adds this:
"Dr. Rogerio Lobo, identified by the New York Times and ABC News as
the report's lead author, now claims to have not been involved with
the study until after its completion and to have provided only,
"editorial assistance". Dr. Lobo also refuses to return phone calls
or letters about the study. If the report's lead author did not
conduct the international prayer study, who did' "
pan
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