| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"josh" |
| Date: |
30 Jan 2008 10:35:41 AM |
| Object: |
Flies and spiders and God |
While listening to a science programme on the radio in the car, I was
regailed with the life story of a small fly which borrows into the body of a
living spider and lays its eggs, which hatch into lavae and eat the spider
from the inside.
As a believer in evolution, I had to recognise that the habits of this small
fly were normal, as such parasitical goings-on are pretty widespread in the
natural world. However as a human with a typical human's slanted view of
such things, I thought it was a pretty gross procedure and felt sorry for
the luckless spider.
The point about all this is that believers have to face a fact which I
don't - that God designed this seemingly nasty procedure. Why couldn't the
larvae live on leaves and the spider live to an old age? But then, of
course, that seems pretty unfair on leaves, and to be really kind, why
shouldn't all animals and vegetation live for ever just like God does?
Thank goodness for Darwin.
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| User: "Jim07D8" |
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| Title: Re: Flies and spiders and God |
30 Jan 2008 10:43:56 AM |
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"josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> said:
...and to be really kind, why
shouldn't all animals and vegetation live for ever just like God does?
....with an opt-out option, I would hope.
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| User: "Ghod" |
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| Title: Re: Flies and spiders and God |
30 Jan 2008 02:56:10 PM |
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"josh" <jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Q-6dndDCJaqdOj3anZ2dnUVZ8q-rnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
While listening to a science programme on the radio in the car, I was
regailed with the life story of a small fly which borrows into the body of
a living spider and lays its eggs, which hatch into lavae and eat the
spider from the inside.
Erm, like, what happened to your original Gail? I'm going to get my
Cadillac releathered as soon as I figure out who would do a good, and not
expensive job of it.
As a believer in evolution, I had to recognise that the habits of this
small fly were normal, as such parasitical goings-on are pretty widespread
in the natural world. However as a human with a typical human's slanted
view of such things, I thought it was a pretty gross procedure and felt
sorry for the luckless spider.
Nah, it'd be a pretty small procedure...or it wouldn't fit.
The point about all this is that believers have to face a fact which I
don't - that God designed this seemingly nasty procedure. Why couldn't
the larvae live on leaves and the spider live to an old age? But then, of
course, that seems pretty unfair on leaves, and to be really kind, why
shouldn't all animals and vegetation live for ever just like God does?
Thank goodness for Darwin.
Thank *who*? Silly person, don't you know that that's just a euphemism fer
Gawd?
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| User: "Onoit" |
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| Title: Re: Flies and spiders and God |
30 Jan 2008 02:39:24 PM |
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, and to be really kind, why
shouldn't all animals and vegetation live for ever just like God does?
God has some tough questions to answer.
The problem is, we are probably not intelligent enough to state the
questions correctly, and not intelligent enough to understand the answers.
Maybe plants and animals do live forever.
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| User: "Jim07D8" |
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| Title: Re: Flies and spiders and God |
30 Jan 2008 03:18:15 PM |
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"Onoit" <onoit@sno.tso> said:
, and to be really kind, why
shouldn't all animals and vegetation live for ever just like God does?
God has some tough questions to answer.
The problem is, we are probably not intelligent enough to state the
questions correctly, and not intelligent enough to understand the answers.
The problem is that our questions assume that we matter. Just asking
them, assumes that.
Maybe plants and animals do live forever.
Life is DNA's way of making more DNA, at least on our planet. Larger
scale organisms are just along for the ride, to the extent we are
useful in this process. Enjoy the ride, while you can.
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| User: "Karl Johanson" |
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| Title: Re: Flies and spiders and God |
02 Feb 2008 02:55:23 PM |
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"Onoit" <onoit@sno.tso> wrote in message
news:13q1o3tqi5vg02c@corp.supernews.com...
, and to be really kind, why
shouldn't all animals and vegetation live for ever just like God
does?
God has some tough questions to answer.
The problem is, we are probably not intelligent enough to state the
questions correctly, and not intelligent enough to understand the
answers.
Blasphemy. If god's omnipotent he could explain anything to anyone in
such a way that they could understand. If not, he would be, at best,
'sorta-omnipotent'.
Karl Johanson
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| User: "Ghod" |
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| Title: Re: Flies and spiders and God |
30 Jan 2008 03:28:15 PM |
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"Onoit" <onoit@sno.tso> wrote in message
news:13q1o3tqi5vg02c@corp.supernews.com...
, and to be really kind, why
shouldn't all animals and vegetation live for ever just like God does?
God has some tough questions to answer.
The problem is, we are probably not intelligent enough to state the
questions correctly, and not intelligent enough to understand the answers.
Certainly. It's always been like this, though, cretins can't state
questions correctly, and aren't intelligent enough to understand the
answers, even when I make it easy for them.
Maybe plants and animals do live forever.
Maybe up is down, and black is white? Or have you been digging up that
giant fungus? Still, it depends also on your definition of "forever".
- Ghod
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| User: "Onoit" |
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| Title: Re: Flies and spiders and God |
30 Jan 2008 04:39:00 PM |
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"Ghod" <ghod@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:PZ5oj.4776$J41.2073@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net...
"Onoit" <onoit@sno.tso> wrote in message
news:13q1o3tqi5vg02c@corp.supernews.com...
, and to be really kind, why
shouldn't all animals and vegetation live for ever just like God does?
God has some tough questions to answer.
The problem is, we are probably not intelligent enough to state the
questions correctly, and not intelligent enough to understand the
answers.
Certainly. It's always been like this, though, cretins can't state
questions correctly, and aren't intelligent enough to understand the
answers, even when I make it easy for them.
Maybe plants and animals do live forever.
Maybe up is down, and black is white? Or have you been digging up that
giant fungus? Still, it depends also on your definition of "forever".
- Ghod
Maybe "plants" and "animals" is just what we see. To get a better idea
of what that means, you might read
The Holographic Universe. It's kind of interedsting by itself. Maybe
outdated.
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| User: "Uncle Vic" |
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| Title: Re: Flies and spiders and God |
30 Jan 2008 03:33:58 PM |
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On Jan 30, 12:39 pm, "Onoit" <on...@sno.tso> wrote:
, and to be really kind, why
shouldn't all animals and vegetation live for ever just like God does?
God has some tough questions to answer.
Good thing he doesn't actually exist, eh?
The problem is, we are probably not intelligent enough to state the
questions correctly, and not intelligent enough to understand the answers.
We're more intelligent than you are, it would seem.
Maybe plants and animals do live forever.
But we have observed that they do not.
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Flies and spiders and God |
30 Jan 2008 07:40:31 PM |
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On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:39:24 -0600, "Onoit" <onoit@sno.tso> wrote:
, and to be really kind, why
shouldn't all animals and vegetation live for ever just like God does?
God has some tough questions to answer.
What "god"?
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: Flies and spiders and God |
31 Jan 2008 03:45:52 PM |
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On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:39:24 -0600, Onoit wrote:
, and to be really kind, why
shouldn't all animals and vegetation live for ever just like God does?
God has some tough questions to answer.
The problem is, we are probably not intelligent enough to state the
questions correctly, and not intelligent enough to understand the answers.
Maybe plants and animals do live forever.
Perhaps God is a Divine small, spider-eating fly. We are just here to put
trash on the curb so the flies will have something to eat.
--
MarkA
(My OTHER sig line is clever)
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| User: "Dag Yo" |
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| Title: Re: Flies and spiders and God |
30 Jan 2008 02:52:17 PM |
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Nature is cruel, i'm glad I live in a house.
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| User: "magilla" |
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| Title: Re: Flies and spiders and God |
30 Jan 2008 10:48:45 AM |
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On Jan 30, 11:35 am, "josh" <jillywo...@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk>
wrote:
While listening to a science programme on the radio in the car, I was
regailed with the life story of a small fly which borrows into the body of a
living spider and lays its eggs, which hatch into lavae and eat the spider
from the inside.
As a believer in evolution, I had to recognise that the habits of this small
fly were normal, as such parasitical goings-on are pretty widespread in the
natural world. However as a human with a typical human's slanted view of
such things, I thought it was a pretty gross procedure and felt sorry for
the luckless spider.
The point about all this is that believers have to face a fact which I
don't - that God designed this seemingly nasty procedure. Why couldn't the
larvae live on leaves and the spider live to an old age? But then, of
course, that seems pretty unfair on leaves, and to be really kind, why
shouldn't all animals and vegetation live for ever just like God does?
Thank goodness for Darwin.
In fact, the reproductive habits of the Ichneumon wasps- the parasitic
ones that lay their eggs in catapillars- posed a much greater problem
for theists than war, disease, famine and the like. All of those could
be blamed on human free will. Even predators such as wolves and lions
were not bad, because they would kill their prey outright, and it
could be justified as culling the weak or infirm from the herd. But
the hapless catapillar- which, after all, grows up into a harmless,
beautiful butterfly- could not have brought that fate upon itself.
Temporizing that all creatures suffered for the Fall of Adam and Eve
was merely that- an ex post facto justification of an undeserved evil.
As always, Stephen Jay Gould beat us to it: Read here:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_nonmoral.html
Chris
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| User: "SkyEyes" |
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| Title: Re: Flies and spiders and God |
31 Jan 2008 04:00:05 PM |
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On Jan 30, 9:48=A0am, magilla <chris.linthomp...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 30, 11:35 am, "josh" <jillywo...@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk>
wrote:
While listening to a science programme on the radio in the car, I was
regailed with the life story of a small fly which borrows into the body =
of a
living spider and lays its eggs, which hatch into lavae and eat the spid=
er
from the inside.
As a believer in evolution, I had to recognise that the habits of this s=
mall
fly were normal, as such parasitical goings-on are pretty widespread in =
the
natural world. =A0However as a human with a typical human's slanted view=
of
such things, I thought it was a pretty gross procedure and felt sorry fo=
r
the luckless spider.
The point about all this is that believers have to face a fact which I
don't - that God designed this seemingly nasty procedure. =A0Why couldn'=
t the
larvae live on leaves and the spider live to an old age? =A0But then, of=
course, that seems pretty unfair on leaves, and to be really kind, why
shouldn't all animals and vegetation live for ever just like God does?
Thank goodness for Darwin.
In fact, the reproductive habits of the Ichneumon wasps- the parasitic
ones that lay their eggs in catapillars- posed a much greater problem
for theists than war, disease, famine and the like. All of those could
be blamed on human free will. Even predators such as wolves and lions
were not bad, because they would kill their prey outright, and it
could be justified as culling the weak or infirm from the herd. =A0But
the hapless catapillar- which, after all, grows up into a harmless,
beautiful butterfly- could not have brought that fate upon itself.
Temporizing that all creatures suffered for the Fall of Adam and Eve
was merely that- an ex post facto justification of an undeserved evil.
Not only are butterflys harmless and beautiful, but they are very
useful critters as well, as they assist in plant pollination. Using
the theist's logic, the caterpillars of butterflies should be guarded
by their god against just such waspish depredations!
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: Flies and spiders and God |
31 Jan 2008 08:08:00 AM |
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On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:48:45 -0800 in
90eeb6df-c8f7-4fe1-81b9-c79dede05d01@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com, magilla
<chris.linthompson@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 30, 11:35 am, "josh" <jillywo...@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk>
wrote:
While listening to a science programme on the radio in the car, I was
regailed with the life story of a small fly which borrows into the body
of a living spider and lays its eggs, which hatch into lavae and eat
the spider from the inside.
As a believer in evolution, I had to recognise that the habits of this
small fly were normal, as such parasitical goings-on are pretty
widespread in the natural world. However as a human with a typical
human's slanted view of such things, I thought it was a pretty gross
procedure and felt sorry for the luckless spider.
The point about all this is that believers have to face a fact which I
don't - that God designed this seemingly nasty procedure. Why couldn't
the larvae live on leaves and the spider live to an old age? But then,
of course, that seems pretty unfair on leaves, and to be really kind,
why shouldn't all animals and vegetation live for ever just like God
does?
Thank goodness for Darwin.
In fact, the reproductive habits of the Ichneumon wasps- the parasitic
ones that lay their eggs in catapillars- posed a much greater problem
for theists than war, disease, famine and the like. All of those could
be blamed on human free will. Even predators such as wolves and lions
were not bad, because they would kill their prey outright, and it could
be justified as culling the weak or infirm from the herd.
While you make a very, very good point, I still have to jump in to
comment that "killing outright" isn't some merciful act as we're talking
teeth and claws which aren't even sharp as a common kitchen knife.
That is, it's a *seriously* painful process. And they don't even have any
rule that says they have to wait until you're dead to start ripping out
the tasty bits. You just have to be no longer able to get away.
Not to mention the part where they're chasing you down and you're running
for your life in stark, raving terror.
Prey suffer. Horrifically.
In many Christian sects, including the one I was raised in, this is our
fault. Apparently everybody was vegetarian before A&E ate a fruit. Never
mind carnivore biology would have to be radically changed to transition
from herbivore to carnivore, somehow it just... happened. And not to all
of them. Just some. The criteria for the change isn't clear.
And while rearranging the biology of some animals but not others from
herbivore to carnivore, god didn't bother to, oh, add something like an
anesthetic for the prey. Which wouldn't have been all that hard for a
god. Animals already have the capability to produce the endorphins and
such. So why don't the prey go numb when they're caught?
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"The heresy of democracy has since then worked havoc in church
and state, and it has worked towards reducing society to anarchy."
-- R.J. Rushdooney, architect of "Christian Reconstructionism."
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| User: "Sara Brum" |
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| Title: Re: Flies and spiders and God |
31 Jan 2008 09:23:25 AM |
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"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote in message
news:0b1975-824.ln1@75-104-202-153.cust.wildblue.net...
So why don't the prey go numb when they're caught?
Oh, but they do. First the mind is numbed, then the grip on the wallet is
loosened...
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| User: "SkyEyes" |
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| Title: AQOTM Nomination Re: Flies and spiders and God |
31 Jan 2008 05:47:29 PM |
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On Jan 31, 8:23 am, "Sara Brum" <sarab...@medulla.c=F6m> wrote:
I hereby nominate Sara's delicious riposte to Mark's observation:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote in messagenews:0b1975-824.ln1@75=
-104-202-153.cust.wildblue.net...
So why don't the prey go numb when they're caught?
Oh, but they do. First the mind is numbed, then the grip on the wallet is=
loosened...
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net
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| User: "sleepykit" |
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| Title: Re: AQOTM Nomination Re: Flies and spiders and God |
31 Jan 2008 06:13:16 PM |
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On Jan 31, 4:47 pm, SkyEyes <skyey...@cox.net> wrote:
On Jan 31, 8:23 am, "Sara Brum" <sarab...@medulla.c=F6m> wrote:
I hereby nominate Sara's delicious riposte to Mark's observation:
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gm...@com.mkbilbo> wrote in messagenews:0b1975-824.ln1@=
75-104-202-153.cust.wildblue.net...
So why don't the prey go numb when they're caught?
Oh, but they do. First the mind is numbed, then the grip on the wallet =
is
loosened...
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes nine at cox dot net
Seconded, if my opinion counts.
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| User: "phillip brown" |
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| Title: Re: Flies and spiders and God |
30 Jan 2008 05:38:40 PM |
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On Jan 31, 3:35 am, "josh" <jillywo...@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk>
wrote:
While listening to a science programme on the radio in the car, I was
regailed with the life story of a small fly which borrows into the body of a
living spider and lays its eggs, which hatch into lavae and eat the spider
from the inside.
As a believer in evolution, I had to recognise that the habits of this small
fly were normal, as such parasitical goings-on are pretty widespread in the
natural world. However as a human with a typical human's slanted view of
such things, I thought it was a pretty gross procedure and felt sorry for
the luckless spider.
The point about all this is that believers have to face a fact which I
don't - that God designed this seemingly nasty procedure. Why couldn't the
larvae live on leaves and the spider live to an old age? But then, of
course, that seems pretty unfair on leaves, and to be really kind, why
shouldn't all animals and vegetation live for ever just like God does?
Thank goodness for Darwin.
you think thats bad - try this
"Life cycle of M. syntomentera
M. syntomentera uses the eastern garter snake (Thamnophis sirtalis
sirtalis) as the definitive
host and pond snails (Physia gyrina) and then frogs as the first
intermediate and second
intermediate hosts, respectively (Ingles, 1933) (Figure 1). The eggs
of M. syntomentera
are passed in the feces of the snake and then must be ingested by
snails. The
eggs hatch in the digestive tract of the snail and then bore through
the wall of the snail's
gut and become sporocysts. The sporocyst produce cercariae (a free
swimming form)
which emerge from the snail, seek out tadpoles, and preferentially
attack the tail end.
The cercariae burrow into the skeletal muscle tissue of the tadpole,
form a protective
cyst, and enter a dormant state (metacercaria). The metacercariae must
survive until the
frog (or tadpole) is eaten by a snake. The cyst wall is digested in
the stomach of the
snake, the young adults emerge, and migrate to the esophagus of the
snake where they
mature."
also
"Johnson and Sessions both think that the parasites may exploit the
frogs' deformities as part of their own reproductive cycle. After
hatching in pond water, the immature trematodes infect aquatic snails,
where they reproduce asexually, increasing their numbers to the point
that often kills the snail. Back in the water, the trematode larvae
next seek out tadpoles and burrow into their hind leg regions. Later,
aquatic birds prey on the grown frogs giving the parasites a third
host, where they reproduce sexually. Finally, the eggs reach another
pond via the birds' faeces, completing the cycle. Because birds prey
upon them significantly more often than on normal frogs, deformed
frogs may play an unfortunate but critical role in the parasite's
reproduction strategy."
phillip brown
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Flies and spiders and God |
30 Jan 2008 07:39:55 PM |
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On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:35:41 -0000, "josh"
<jillywoods@abcjillywoods.karoo.co.uk> wrote:
While listening to a science programme on the radio in the car, I was
regailed with the life story of a small fly which borrows into the body of a
living spider and lays its eggs, which hatch into lavae and eat the spider
from the inside.
As a believer in evolution, I had to recognise that the habits of this small
fly were normal, as such parasitical goings-on are pretty widespread in the
natural world. However as a human with a typical human's slanted view of
such things, I thought it was a pretty gross procedure and felt sorry for
the luckless spider.
The point about all this is that believers have to face a fact which I
don't - that God designed this seemingly nasty procedure. Why couldn't the
larvae live on leaves and the spider live to an old age? But then, of
course, that seems pretty unfair on leaves, and to be really kind, why
shouldn't all animals and vegetation live for ever just like God does?
Thank goodness for Darwin.
The ancient problem called Theodicy.
Only Theist Idiots have to deal with it.
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