| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Son of man" |
| Date: |
17 Apr 2004 03:12:56 PM |
| Object: |
For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ |
In case you missed this older post :
Although I have my own specific understanding of Jesus that won't be
accepted by many fundamentalists, the most important understanding of Jesus
which I share with them is that he suffered and has entered into *his
Father's glory* :
Ephesians:1:17: That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, *the Father of
glory*, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the
knowledge of him:
Mark:11:23: For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say and shall
not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith
shall come to pass; *he shall have whatsoever he saith*.
Luke:23:46: And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, *Father,
into thy hands I commend my spirit*: and having said thus, he gave up the
ghost.
Because Jesus suffered and entered into *the glory of his Father who is
greater than all, or the Highest*, he is able to share that incorruptible
Spirit with all who believe in him and keep his commandments :
John:7:37: In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and
cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38: He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly
shall flow rivers of living water.
39: (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should
receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that *Jesus was not
yet glorified*.)
Luke:24:26: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter
into his glory? [of the Father]
Matthew:16:27: For the Son of man shall come *in the glory of his Father*
with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Because Jesus suffered and entered into his Father's glory, he is in the
Highest and the Spirit of the Highest is his to share. The Spirit of the
Father is eternal or deathless and when we drink of that incorruptible
Spirit which is only Christ's to give as he only has entered into the glory
of the Father, then we inherit eternal life with him in his Father's kingdom
which is everlasting joy in the Holy Ghost, or the glory that fadeth not
away.
This is the common ground which all Christians, regardless of denomination,
should agree upon and is supported and taught in the New Testament gospels.
This common ground is also what I would also consider to be the most
important understanding of Christ of his unique and significant role in
reconciling us into his Father's kingdom.
I've identified three major factors which account for the victory of Christ
entering into the glory of his Father whereby he is able to share of that
incorruptible Spirit with all who believe in him.
[1] First and foremost of all, Jesus was possessed of an indomitable will,
as is evidenced by the recurring theme throughout his ministry and teaching
that anything is possible to the person with undoubting faith. But what
exactly is the cause for someone being possessed of undoubting faith?
1Timothy:1:5: Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart,
and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
Faith unfeigned -- or being possessed of an indomitable will -- accompanies
a pure heart and good conscience, both of which Jesus possessed to a greater
degree than any other.
John also bore witness of Jesus, that he is the Christ who only shall
baptize with the Holy Ghost :
Mark:1:6: And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a
skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
7: And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the
latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8: I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the
Holy Ghost.
It may also be of interest to some to note that Jesus had not baptized until
after his resurrection :
John:4:1: Therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus
made and baptized more disciples than John,
2: (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
[2] In addition to being possessed of an indomitable will or the undoubting
faith which comes from having a pure conscience, the second major factor why
Christ was victorious in entering into the glory of his Father was the
tremendous responsibility which was given him in shepherding those whom his
Father gave him to. From personal experience, we know that human beings are
far more capable of accomplishing any given task when the fates of loved
ones are at stake, and not merely one's own fate. There is perhaps no
greater case in the history of humankind where the fate of so many depended
upon a single person than as that of the Christ, to whom was given the
responsibility by his Father of shepherding or being the protector of all
those who would later believe in him, and hence to lead them to salvation
into his Father's kingdom. Jesus often referred to himself as the good
shepherd, knowing that his purpose was to protect all those who belonged to
his Father :
John:10:11: I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for
the sheep.
John:10:14: I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Therefore knowing he had the responsibility which the Father gave to him, he
knew the fates of many millions of people who would later come to know of
him and believe in him through the New Testament gospel would depend upon
his entering into the glory of his Father which he admitted as such :
Luke:12:50: I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened
till it be accomplished!
Human beings are far more capable at accomplishing any task when the fates
of loves ones are at stake and not merely one's own fate. How much more
capable therefore would the Son be of accomplishing his Father's will which
the fates of millions who would later come to believe in him depended upon
his entering into his Father's glory?
[3] The third major factor which accounted for the success of Christ
entering into his Father's glory is quite simply the perfected love which
the Son has for the Father.
Mark:12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and
with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is
the first commandment.
That the Son's love for the Father is perfected is also demonstrated in the
gospel when Jesus says it is his meat (the symbol of satisfaction) to do the
will of his Father :
John:4:34: Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent
me, and to finish his work.
35: Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold,
I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are
white already to harvest.
The unfailing love which the Son has for the Father is further demonstrated
by his acceptance of his suffering and being crucified, when clearly he
would have preferred that he could have been spared of drinking from that
bitter cup;
Luke:22:42: Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me:
nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43: And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44: And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it
were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
The Son therefore unfailingly carried out his Father's will, which is the
proof by deeds, and not merely words, that his love for the Father and also
those whom his Father gave him to, is perfected. It is thus his perfection
of love for the Father and his indomitable will which comes from the
undoubting faith of having a pure conscience, as well as the tremendous
responsibility his Father gave to him in shepherding all who would later
come to believe in him through the New Testament gospel, knowing the fate of
countless others depended upon him, which all served to make possible his
victory of entering into his Father's glory.
Because that Jesus has entered into his Father's boundless and deathless
Spirit, he abideth ever, and has been made protector of those who believe in
him, to the world's end :
Revelation:1:18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive
for evermore, Amen.
It was also the wisdom and counsel of the Blessed One, the Buddha, that we
should live with a protector and not without a protector, and he also
described the ten qualities of a protector :
( Anguttara Nikaya X.17, Natha Sutta :
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-017.html )
"Live with a protector, monks, and not without a protector. He suffers, one
who lives without a protector. And these ten are qualities creating a
protector. Which ten?
"There is the case where a monk is virtuous. He dwells restrained,
consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having
undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults. And
the fact that he is virtuous... seeing danger in the slightest faults, is a
quality creating a protector.
"Then again, the monk has heard much, has retained what he has heard, has
stored what he has heard. Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning,
admirable in the middle, admirable in the end, that -- in their meaning &
expression -- proclaim the holy life that is entirely complete & pure: those
he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with
his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views. And the fact that he has
heard much... well-penetrated in terms of his views, is a quality creating a
protector.
"Then again, the monk has admirable friends, admirable companions, admirable
comrades. And the fact that he has admirable friends, admirable companions,
admirable comrades is a quality creating a protector.
"Then again, the monk is easy to speak to, endowed with qualities that make
him easy to speak to, patient, respectful to instruction. And the fact that
he is easy to speak to... respectful to instruction, is a quality creating a
protector.
"Then again, the monk is adept at the various affairs involving his fellows
in the holy life; is vigorous, quick-witted in the techniques involved in
them, is up to doing them or arranging to get them done. And the fact that
he is adept at... doing them or arranging to get them done is a quality
creating a protector.
"Then again, the monk is one who desires the Dhamma, endearing in his
conversation, greatly rejoicing in the higher Dhamma & higher Discipline.
And the fact that he is one who desires the Dhamma, endearing in his
conversation, greatly rejoicing in the higher Dhamma & higher Discipline, is
a quality creating a protector.
"Then again, the monk keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning
unskillful qualities and for taking on skillful qualities. He is steadfast,
solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful
qualities. And the fact that he keeps his persistence aroused... not
shirking his duties with regard to skillful qualities, is a quality creating
a protector.
"Then again, the monk is content with any old robe cloth at all, any old
alms food, any old lodging, any old medicinal requisites for curing sickness
at all. And the fact that he is content with any old robe cloth at all, any
old alms food, any old lodging, any old medicinal requisites for curing
sickness at all, is a quality creating a protector.
"Then again, the monk is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to
call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. And the fact that
he is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even
things that were done & said long ago, is a quality creating a protector.
"Then again, the monk is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising &
passing away -- noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress.
And the fact that the monk is discerning, endowed with discernment of
arising & passing away -- noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of
stress, is a quality creating a protector.
"Live with a protector, monks, and not without a protector. He suffers, one
who lives without a protector. These are the ten qualities creating a
protector."
Since it was also the Blessed One's view that one should live with a
protector and not without a protector, because he knew that there were
indeed those who would suffer without having a protector, it therefore only
stands to reason because he also had compassion for the world that he would
either (1) become himself a protector or (2) give the world a protector. In
fact, he did both. Christ having been glorified in his Father, the Blessed
One (Mark:14:61-62), is established in that boundless, deathless, pure or
undefiled & compassionate Spirit of the Highest whereby he is able to share
of that incorruptible Spirit with those who believe in and follow him and
receive them into the kingdom of his Father :
"Freed from the classification of form, the Tathagata is deep, boundless,
hard to fathom, like the sea." (Majjhima Nikaya 72, Aggivacchagotta Sutta)
John:4:14: Whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never
thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water
springing up into everlasting life.
John:6:57: As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father
(Mark:11:23 & Luke:23:46): so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58: This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did
eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Christ having suffered and entered into his Father's glory is the protector
who abideth ever and whom the Father gave to all that would believe in him
and keep his commandments :
Matthew:28:20: Teach them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded
you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
.
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| User: "Woden" |
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| Title: Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ |
17 Apr 2004 03:31:37 PM |
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"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> honored us in alt.atheism
with the following discourse:
In case you missed this older post :
(snip *****)
Are you really so stupid as to think that people in alt.atheism give a *****
about your silly god fantasies?
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
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| User: "Son of man" |
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| Title: Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ |
17 Apr 2004 04:06:17 PM |
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"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns94CEA8BF5BF71wodencharternet@216.168.3.44...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> honored us in alt.atheism
with the following discourse:
In case you missed this older post :
(snip *****)
Are you really so stupid as to think that people in alt.atheism give a
*****
about your silly god fantasies?
What do you think?
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
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| User: "Woden" |
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| Title: Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ |
17 Apr 2004 05:34:22 PM |
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"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> honored us in alt.atheism
with the following discourse:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns94CEA8BF5BF71wodencharternet@216.168.3.44...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> honored us in alt.atheism
with the following discourse:
In case you missed this older post :
(snip *****)
Are you really so stupid as to think that people in alt.atheism give a
*****
about your silly god fantasies?
What do you think?
I wouldn't give you that much credit.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ |
17 Apr 2004 03:33:14 PM |
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"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_aggc.57523$oj6.993@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
In case you missed this older post :
Although I have my own specific understanding of Jesus that won't be
accepted by many fundamentalists, the most important understanding of
Jesus
which I share with them is that he suffered and has entered into *his
Father's glory* :
*Cultist bollocks snipped*
Do you have to post this to alt.atheism....really ???
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.
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| User: "Son of man" |
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| Title: Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ |
17 Apr 2004 04:06:04 PM |
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"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:40819474$0$15967$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_aggc.57523$oj6.993@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
In case you missed this older post :
Although I have my own specific understanding of Jesus that won't be
accepted by many fundamentalists, the most important understanding of
Jesus
which I share with them is that he suffered and has entered into *his
Father's glory* :
*Cultist bollocks snipped*
Do you have to post this to alt.atheism....really ???
You afraid of something Jack?
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ |
17 Apr 2004 04:28:39 PM |
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"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:wUggc.59331$Lh2.51880@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:40819474$0$15967$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_aggc.57523$oj6.993@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
In case you missed this older post :
Although I have my own specific understanding of Jesus that won't be
accepted by many fundamentalists, the most important understanding of
Jesus
which I share with them is that he suffered and has entered into *his
Father's glory* :
*Cultist bollocks snipped*
Do you have to post this to alt.atheism....really ???
You afraid of something Jack?
No. Thats why I don't pray to an imaginary friend.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.
|
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| User: "Son of man" |
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| Title: Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ |
17 Apr 2004 04:37:59 PM |
|
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"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:4081a171$0$15964$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:wUggc.59331$Lh2.51880@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:40819474$0$15967$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_aggc.57523$oj6.993@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
In case you missed this older post :
Although I have my own specific understanding of Jesus that won't be
accepted by many fundamentalists, the most important understanding
of
Jesus
which I share with them is that he suffered and has entered into
*his
Father's glory* :
*Cultist bollocks snipped*
Do you have to post this to alt.atheism....really ???
You afraid of something Jack?
No. Thats why I don't pray to an imaginary friend.
Neither do I, I pray to Jesus.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.
|
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Fatherof Christ |
17 Apr 2004 04:56:16 PM |
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From: "Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net>
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christia
n.roman-catholic
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:37:59 -0400
Subject: Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:4081a171$0$15964$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:wUggc.59331$Lh2.51880@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:40819474$0$15967$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_aggc.57523$oj6.993@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
In case you missed this older post :
Although I have my own specific understanding of Jesus that won't be
accepted by many fundamentalists, the most important understanding
of
Jesus
which I share with them is that he suffered and has entered into
*his
Father's glory* :
I accept that many people have a deep emotional relationship with the
concept of Jesus Christ and to them I say: Hold on to your faith just as
hard as you can.
But please remember that I have the free speech to tell you that there is
absolutely nothing in the (non-biblical) historical record to indicate
that there ever was a human being with the name and attributes of Jesus
Christ.
Mombasha
*Cultist bollocks snipped*
Do you have to post this to alt.atheism....really ???
You afraid of something Jack?
No. Thats why I don't pray to an imaginary friend.
Neither do I, I pray to Jesus.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.
|
|
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| User: "Son of man" |
|
| Title: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Fatherof Christ |
17 Apr 2004 06:03:55 PM |
|
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<mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:BCA72040.47B4D%mombasha@nyc.rr.com...
From: "Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net>
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christ
ia
n.roman-catholic
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:37:59 -0400
Subject: Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:4081a171$0$15964$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:wUggc.59331$Lh2.51880@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:40819474$0$15967$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_aggc.57523$oj6.993@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
In case you missed this older post :
Although I have my own specific understanding of Jesus that won't be
accepted by many fundamentalists, the most important understanding
of
Jesus
which I share with them is that he suffered and has entered into
*his
Father's glory* :
I accept that many people have a deep emotional relationship with the
concept of Jesus Christ and to them I say: Hold on to your faith just as
hard as you can.
But please remember that I have the free speech to tell you that there is
absolutely nothing in the (non-biblical) historical record to indicate
that there ever was a human being with the name and attributes of Jesus
Christ.
And I don't need any. I've seen him with my own two eyes, and his Mother
Mary. They are alive.
Mombasha
*Cultist bollocks snipped*
Do you have to post this to alt.atheism....really ???
You afraid of something Jack?
No. Thats why I don't pray to an imaginary friend.
Neither do I, I pray to Jesus.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty
years."
R.D. Laing
.
|
|
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| User: "Woden" |
|
| Title: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Fatherof Christ |
17 Apr 2004 08:18:15 PM |
|
|
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> honored us in alt.atheism
with the following discourse:
<mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:BCA72040.47B4D%mombasha@nyc.rr.com...
From: "Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net>
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.c
hrist ia
n.roman-catholic
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:37:59 -0400
Subject: Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:4081a171$0$15964$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:wUggc.59331$Lh2.51880@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:40819474$0$15967$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_aggc.57523$oj6.993@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
In case you missed this older post :
Although I have my own specific understanding of Jesus that
won't be accepted by many fundamentalists, the most important
understanding
of
Jesus
which I share with them is that he suffered and has entered
into
*his
Father's glory* :
I accept that many people have a deep emotional relationship with the
concept of Jesus Christ and to them I say: Hold on to your faith
just as hard as you can.
But please remember that I have the free speech to tell you that
there is absolutely nothing in the (non-biblical) historical record
to indicate that there ever was a human being with the name and
attributes of Jesus Christ.
And I don't need any. I've seen him with my own two eyes, and his
Mother Mary. They are alive.
Of course, there is no way you can show us that this was anything other
than an delusion on your part, is there?
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
|
|
|
| User: "Son of man" |
|
| Title: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Fatherof Christ |
17 Apr 2004 08:35:35 PM |
|
|
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns94CED9553A1CDwodencharternet@216.168.3.44...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> honored us in alt.atheism
with the following discourse:
<mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:BCA72040.47B4D%mombasha@nyc.rr.com...
From: "Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net>
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.c
hrist ia
n.roman-catholic
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:37:59 -0400
Subject: Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:4081a171$0$15964$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:wUggc.59331$Lh2.51880@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:40819474$0$15967$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_aggc.57523$oj6.993@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
In case you missed this older post :
Although I have my own specific understanding of Jesus that
won't be accepted by many fundamentalists, the most important
understanding
of
Jesus
which I share with them is that he suffered and has entered
into
*his
Father's glory* :
I accept that many people have a deep emotional relationship with the
concept of Jesus Christ and to them I say: Hold on to your faith
just as hard as you can.
But please remember that I have the free speech to tell you that
there is absolutely nothing in the (non-biblical) historical record
to indicate that there ever was a human being with the name and
attributes of Jesus Christ.
And I don't need any. I've seen him with my own two eyes, and his
Mother Mary. They are alive.
Of course, there is no way you can show us that this was anything other
than an delusion on your part, is there?
What you see all around you is the real deluison.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Woden" |
|
| Title: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Fatherof Christ |
18 Apr 2004 08:43:15 AM |
|
|
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> honored us in alt.atheism
with the following discourse:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns94CED9553A1CDwodencharternet@216.168.3.44...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> honored us in
alt.atheism with the following discourse:
(snip)
And I don't need any. I've seen him with my own two eyes, and his
Mother Mary. They are alive.
Of course, there is no way you can show us that this was anything
other than an delusion on your part, is there?
What you see all around you is the real deluison.
You do enjoy rationalizing your fantasies don't you?
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha theFatherof Christ |
19 Apr 2004 11:43:33 AM |
|
|
From: Woden <woden@charter.net>
Organization: Your Company
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 13:43:15 -0000
Subject: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the
Fatherof Christ
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> honored us in alt.atheism
with the following discourse:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns94CED9553A1CDwodencharternet@216.168.3.44...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> honored us in
alt.atheism with the following discourse:
(snip)
And I don't need any. I've seen him with my own two eyes, and his
Mother Mary. They are alive.
Of course, there is no way you can show us that this was anything
other than an delusion on your part, is there?
What you see all around you is the real deluison.
You do enjoy rationalizing your fantasies don't you?
I would not use the sords "fantasy" or "delusion" to describe
"sightings" of Jesus and Mary. Rather, I would say that people who "see"
Jesus and Mary are deeply needful. They do not know how to get there needs
met through their fellow humans so they "see" Jesus and Mary and believe
that Jesus and Mary provide the warmth-love they need.
I agree that such people need help to be able to get their warmth-love from
their fellow humans.
This all stems from what I feel is the intensely social nature of our
species.
Mombasha
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
|
|
|
| User: "Woden" |
|
| Title: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Fatherof Christ |
19 Apr 2004 08:16:45 PM |
|
|
<mombasha@nyc.rr.com> honored us in alt.atheism with the following
discourse:
From: Woden <woden@charter.net>
Organization: Your Company
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 13:43:15 -0000
Subject: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha
the Fatherof Christ
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> honored us in
alt.atheism with the following discourse:
"Woden" <woden@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Xns94CED9553A1CDwodencharternet@216.168.3.44...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> honored us in
alt.atheism with the following discourse:
(snip)
And I don't need any. I've seen him with my own two eyes, and his
Mother Mary. They are alive.
Of course, there is no way you can show us that this was anything
other than an delusion on your part, is there?
What you see all around you is the real deluison.
You do enjoy rationalizing your fantasies don't you?
I would not use the sords "fantasy" or "delusion" to describe
"sightings" of Jesus and Mary. Rather, I would say that people who
"see" Jesus and Mary are deeply needful. They do not know how to get
there needs met through their fellow humans so they "see" Jesus and
Mary and believe that Jesus and Mary provide the warmth-love they
need.
And how is this different from a delusion? Albeit, "delusion" is a bit
more blunt and to the point.
I agree that such people need help to be able to get their warmth-love
from their fellow humans.
This all stems from what I feel is the intensely social nature of our
species.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Jez" |
|
| Title: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Fatherof Christ |
18 Apr 2004 06:41:14 AM |
|
|
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:cRkgc.59710
And I don't need any. I've seen him with my own two eyes, and his
Mother Mary. They are alive.
Of course, there is no way you can show us that this was anything other
than an delusion on your part, is there?
What you see all around you is the real deluison.
Yeah, thats why it's so easy to walk thru this wall.......
<<<THUD>>>.............Maybe not.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha theFatherof Christ |
19 Apr 2004 11:37:24 AM |
|
|
From: "Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 12:41:14 +0100
Subject: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the
Fatherof Christ
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:cRkgc.59710
And I don't need any. I've seen him with my own two eyes, and his
Mother Mary. They are alive.
Of course, there is no way you can show us that this was anything other
than an delusion on your part, is there?
What you see all around you is the real deluison.
Please explain further
Mombasha
Yeah, thats why it's so easy to walk thru this wall.......
<<<THUD>>>.............Maybe not.
--
Jez
"The condition of alienation, of being asleep, of being unconscious,
of being out of one's mind, is the condition of the normal man. Society
highly values its normal man.It educates children to lose themselves
and to become absurd,and thus to be normal. Normal men have killed
perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the last fifty years."
R.D. Laing
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "David V." |
|
| Title: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the FatherofChrist |
17 Apr 2004 06:18:07 PM |
|
|
Son of man wrote:
<mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
But please remember that I have the free speech to tell
you that there is absolutely nothing in the
(non-biblical) historical record to indicate that
there ever was a human being with the name and
attributes of Jesus Christ.
And I don't need any. I've seen him with my own two eyes,
and his Mother Mary. They are alive.
Prove it. You are either lying (which is most likely) or you
are psychotic. (Probably both.)
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
|
|
|
| User: "Son of man" |
|
| Title: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Fatherof Christ |
17 Apr 2004 06:56:01 PM |
|
|
"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:17SdnVZyJeeyJhzdRVn-sQ@sti.net...
Son of man wrote:
<mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
But please remember that I have the free speech to tell
you that there is absolutely nothing in the
(non-biblical) historical record to indicate that
there ever was a human being with the name and
attributes of Jesus Christ.
And I don't need any. I've seen him with my own two eyes,
and his Mother Mary. They are alive.
Prove it. You are either lying (which is most likely) or you
are psychotic. (Probably both.)
Simply because one person is capable of experiences that are beyond other
people, doesn't make them liars.
And not everything a person experiences is provable to others.
But I am no liar. I've told you the truth.
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: humans are an intensely social species---Re: Hold on to your |
17 Apr 2004 08:14:31 PM |
|
|
From: "Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net>
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christia
n.roman-catholic
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 19:56:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the
Fatherof Christ
"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:17SdnVZyJeeyJhzdRVn-sQ@sti.net...
Son of man wrote:
<mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
But please remember that I have the free speech to tell
you that there is absolutely nothing in the
(non-biblical) historical record to indicate that
there ever was a human being with the name and
attributes of Jesus Christ.
And I don't need any. I've seen him with my own two eyes,
and his Mother Mary. They are alive.
Prove it. You are either lying (which is most likely) or you
are psychotic. (Probably both.)
Simply because one person is capable of experiences that are beyond other
people, doesn't make them liars.
And not everything a person experiences is provable to others.
But I am no liar. I've told you the truth.
I accept that you tell me the truth when you say you have seen Jesus and
Mary.
However, most people still have virtually no idea of the power of anxiety,
conditioning and repressed emotions to distort our preceptions and make us
see things that are not there.
I have seen and experienced things which, if I were religious and maybe
living in the Middle Ages, would make me believe that I had seen Mary or an
angel etc.
I wrote yesterday that humans are an intensely social species.
Based on my own experiences (I would like to see this proven under
replicable controlled circumstances), if humans have no contact with other
humans for three or more days, their minds start to deteriorate.
Think about how many religious episodes happen to people who went on long
journeys alone. I once had a tree "talk to me" when I had been alone in
the woods too long. I of course realized that it was in my own mind,
perhaps what some my call my own "Higher Power" inside myself.
The tree "said:" "We all love you." Just the support I needed being all
alone for days.
It was no accident that, in the movie where Tom Hanks is alone on an island
for four years, the script has him carve a "face" onto a coconut. Tom
Hanks treats the coconut as if it is a fellow human being.
So, to me, those who believe that they have seen Jesus, Mary etc are
saying they need (needed) the support of the concept of Jesus, Mary etc.
I say to all such people, get your warmth love and support from your fellow
humans.
Mombasha
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
|
|
|
| User: "Son of man" |
|
| Title: Re: humans are an intensely social species---Re: Hold on to yourfaith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Fatherof Christ |
17 Apr 2004 08:34:59 PM |
|
|
<mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:BCA74EB7.47BDD%mombasha@nyc.rr.com...
From: "Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net>
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christ
ia
n.roman-catholic
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 19:56:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the
Fatherof Christ
"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:17SdnVZyJeeyJhzdRVn-sQ@sti.net...
Son of man wrote:
<mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
But please remember that I have the free speech to tell
you that there is absolutely nothing in the
(non-biblical) historical record to indicate that
there ever was a human being with the name and
attributes of Jesus Christ.
And I don't need any. I've seen him with my own two eyes,
and his Mother Mary. They are alive.
Prove it. You are either lying (which is most likely) or you
are psychotic. (Probably both.)
Simply because one person is capable of experiences that are beyond
other
people, doesn't make them liars.
And not everything a person experiences is provable to others.
But I am no liar. I've told you the truth.
I accept that you tell me the truth when you say you have seen Jesus and
Mary.
However, most people still have virtually no idea of the power of
anxiety,
conditioning and repressed emotions to distort our preceptions and make us
see things that are not there.
I have seen and experienced things which, if I were religious and maybe
living in the Middle Ages, would make me believe that I had seen Mary or
an
angel etc.
I wrote yesterday that humans are an intensely social species.
Based on my own experiences (I would like to see this proven under
replicable controlled circumstances), if humans have no contact with
other
humans for three or more days, their minds start to deteriorate.
Think about how many religious episodes happen to people who went on long
journeys alone. I once had a tree "talk to me" when I had been alone
in
the woods too long. I of course realized that it was in my own mind,
perhaps what some my call my own "Higher Power" inside myself.
The tree "said:" "We all love you." Just the support I needed being
all
alone for days.
It was no accident that, in the movie where Tom Hanks is alone on an
island
for four years, the script has him carve a "face" onto a coconut. Tom
Hanks treats the coconut as if it is a fellow human being.
So, to me, those who believe that they have seen Jesus, Mary etc are
saying they need (needed) the support of the concept of Jesus, Mary etc.
I say to all such people, get your warmth love and support from your
fellow
humans.
Not a bad explantion at all. But the trouble is/was that my vision occured
when I was no longer interested in Christianity and favored Buddhism and
other eastern religons instead, but especially Buddhism.
But I applaud your explanation and your efforts.
Mombasha
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "David V." |
|
| Title: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the FatherofChrist |
17 Apr 2004 08:11:40 PM |
|
|
Son of man wrote:
"David V." <spam@hotmail.com> wrote
Son of man wrote:
<mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
But please remember that I have the free speech to
tell you that there is absolutely nothing in the
(non-biblical) historical record to indicate that
there ever was a human being with the name and
attributes of Jesus Christ.
And I don't need any. I've seen him with my own two
eyes, and his Mother Mary. They are alive.
Prove it. You are either lying (which is most likely)
or you are psychotic. (Probably both.)
Simply because one person is capable of experiences that
are beyond other people, doesn't make them liars.
In your case, it does.
And not everything a person experiences is provable to
others.
That's why anecdotes such as yours prove nothing except that
you have psychotic episodes.
But I am no liar. I've told you the truth.
I know you believe that, but your belief in such magical
thinking proves you're psychotic.
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "David V." |
|
| Title: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father |
17 Apr 2004 06:16:23 PM |
|
|
wrote:
I accept that many people have a deep emotional
relationship with the concept of Jesus Christ and to them
I say: Hold on to your faith just as hard as you can.
In order to do that you MUST keep your mind tightly closed.
Don't let any light, or knowledge, in. If you do that
knowledge will replace your gods with reality.
But please remember that I have the free speech to tell
you that there is absolutely nothing in the
(non-biblical) historical record to indicate that there
ever was a human being with the name and attributes of
Jesus Christ.
If they understand that, and their god disappears; who, or
what, will they follow? These people cannot deal with
reality and need someone to tell them what to think and how
to act. They'll be lost without their skydaddy.
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: proper respect, guidance and help---Re: Hold on to your |
18 Apr 2004 10:24:29 PM |
|
|
From: "David V." <spam@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christia
n.roman-catholic
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 16:16:23 -0700
Subject: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father
mombasha@nyc.rr.com wrote:
I accept that many people have a deep emotional
relationship with the concept of Jesus Christ and to them
I say: Hold on to your faith just as hard as you can.
In order to do that you MUST keep your mind tightly closed.
Don't let any light, or knowledge, in. If you do that
knowledge will replace your gods with reality.
Agree.
When I tell theists (those who say I am trying to kill Jesus etc) to hold
onto their faith as hard as they can, I find they respect me or maybe
they feel I respect them (I do) and that allows a little knowledge to
creep in. It might take a long time, but when they are ready, they will
come, one by one, slowly, in our direction.
But please remember that I have the free speech to tell
you that there is absolutely nothing in the
(non-biblical) historical record to indicate that there
ever was a human being with the name and attributes of
Jesus Christ.
If they understand that, and their god disappears; who, or
what, will they follow? These people cannot deal with
reality and need someone to tell them what to think and how
to act. They'll be lost without their skydaddy.
Disagree.
I believe all theists have the strength to, given the proper respect,
guidance and help, make steps towards achieving atheism.
Mombasha
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
|
|
|
| User: "David V." |
|
| Title: Re: proper respect, guidance and help---Re: Hold on to your |
18 Apr 2004 11:14:42 PM |
|
|
wrote:
From: "David V."
wrote:
I accept that many people have a deep emotional
relationship with the concept of Jesus Christ and to
them I say: Hold on to your faith just as hard as
you can.
In order to do that you MUST keep your mind tightly
closed. Don't let any light, or knowledge, in. If you
do that knowledge will replace your gods with reality.
Agree.
No, you don't agree.
When I tell theists (those who say I am trying to kill
Jesus etc) to hold onto their faith as hard as they can,
I find they respect me or maybe they feel I respect
them (I do)
Neither happens. They just see you as someone they can
manipulate.
and that allows a little knowledge to creep in. It
might take a long time, but when they are ready, they
will come, one by one, slowly, in our direction.
That will not happen. Their belief will not allow it to happen.
But please remember that I have the free speech to
tell you that there is absolutely nothing in the
(non-biblical) historical record to indicate that
there ever was a human being with the name and
attributes of Jesus Christ.
If they understand that, and their god disappears; who,
or what, will they follow? These people cannot deal
with reality and need someone to tell them what to
think and how to act. They'll be lost without their
skydaddy.
Disagree.
I believe all theists have the strength to, given the
proper respect, guidance and help, make steps towards
achieving atheism.
If that were true, there would be no theists left.
--
David V.
UDP for WebTV
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Kate " |
|
| Title: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ |
17 Apr 2004 07:05:11 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 21:56:16 GMT, <mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
From: "Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net>
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christia
n.roman-catholic
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:37:59 -0400
Subject: Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:4081a171$0$15964$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:wUggc.59331$Lh2.51880@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:40819474$0$15967$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_aggc.57523$oj6.993@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
In case you missed this older post :
Although I have my own specific understanding of Jesus that won't be
accepted by many fundamentalists, the most important understanding
of
Jesus
which I share with them is that he suffered and has entered into
*his
Father's glory* :
I accept that many people have a deep emotional relationship with the
concept of Jesus Christ and to them I say: Hold on to your faith just as
hard as you can.
Faith is immoral. Faith is blinding yourself to what is really in
evidence in favor of what you want to be true. There is nothing to
admire in steadfast blind lying to oneself. Witness a president who
will not face reality, instead holding on with faith and steadfastness
to a imaginary scenario about what is really happening.
.
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|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Dear Kate---Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re :Buddha the Father of Christ |
17 Apr 2004 07:49:28 PM |
|
|
From: (Kate )
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christia
n.roman-catholic
Date: 17 Apr 2004 19:05:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father
of Christ
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 21:56:16 GMT, <mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
From: "Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net>
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christ
ia
n.roman-catholic
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:37:59 -0400
Subject: Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:4081a171$0$15964$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:wUggc.59331$Lh2.51880@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:40819474$0$15967$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_aggc.57523$oj6.993@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
In case you missed this older post :
Although I have my own specific understanding of Jesus that won't be
accepted by many fundamentalists, the most important understanding
of
Jesus
which I share with them is that he suffered and has entered into
*his
Father's glory* :
I accept that many people have a deep emotional relationship with the
concept of Jesus Christ and to them I say: Hold on to your faith just as
hard as you can.
Faith is immoral. Faith is blinding yourself to what is really in
evidence in favor of what you want to be true. There is nothing to
admire in steadfast blind lying to oneself. Witness a president who
will not face reality, instead holding on with faith and steadfastness
to a imaginary scenario about what is really happening.
Dear Kate:
My point is that many theists have an extremely strong emotional
relationship with the concept of god, jesus, allah etc, such that trying to
tell them that there is no god is like saying I'm going to cut off your arm.
This clearly upsets theists and gets their backs up. Such people will
respect you (us) much more if we allow them (indeed tell them) to hold
onto their faith.
If, instead of battering them with "the support of your life is
meaningless," we rather encourage theists to hold onto their faith, when
they are ready, they will start asking questions and come towards us.
I have a slightly different take on what faith is:
Imagine a glass (or cup or ornate chalice) which is sitting on a podium or
column or pedestal.
That is the Glass of Faith.
You (theists) must believe that The Glass of Faith will not fall if one
picks it up off the pedestal and lets it go.
However, one must never actually test The Glass of Faith. In fact to even
suggest that The Glass of Faith be tested would be heretical.
One must simply believe that The Glass of Faith will never fall. That is
my idea of what "faith" is.
Thank you
Mombasha
.
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|
|
| User: "Son of man" |
|
| Title: Re: Dear Kate---Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re :Buddha the Father of Christ |
17 Apr 2004 08:37:08 PM |
|
|
<mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:BCA748D8.47BDB%mombasha@nyc.rr.com...
From: (Kate )
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christ
ia
n.roman-catholic
Date: 17 Apr 2004 19:05:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the
Father
of Christ
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 21:56:16 GMT, <mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
From: "Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net>
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christ
ia
n.roman-catholic
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:37:59 -0400
Subject: Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:4081a171$0$15964$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:wUggc.59331$Lh2.51880@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:40819474$0$15967$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_aggc.57523$oj6.993@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
In case you missed this older post :
Although I have my own specific understanding of Jesus that won't
be
accepted by many fundamentalists, the most important understanding
of
Jesus
which I share with them is that he suffered and has entered into
*his
Father's glory* :
I accept that many people have a deep emotional relationship with the
concept of Jesus Christ and to them I say: Hold on to your faith just
as
hard as you can.
Faith is immoral. Faith is blinding yourself to what is really in
evidence in favor of what you want to be true. There is nothing to
admire in steadfast blind lying to oneself. Witness a president who
will not face reality, instead holding on with faith and steadfastness
to a imaginary scenario about what is really happening.
Dear Kate:
My point is that many theists have an extremely strong emotional
relationship with the concept of god, jesus, allah etc, such that trying
to
tell them that there is no god is like saying I'm going to cut off your
arm.
This clearly upsets theists and gets their backs up. Such people will
respect you (us) much more if we allow them (indeed tell them) to hold
onto their faith.
If, instead of battering them with "the support of your life is
meaningless," we rather encourage theists to hold onto their faith, when
they are ready, they will start asking questions and come towards us.
I have a slightly different take on what faith is:
Imagine a glass (or cup or ornate chalice) which is sitting on a podium
or
column or pedestal.
That is the Glass of Faith.
You (theists) must believe that The Glass of Faith will not fall if one
picks it up off the pedestal and lets it go.
However, one must never actually test The Glass of Faith. In fact to
even
suggest that The Glass of Faith be tested would be heretical.
One must simply believe that The Glass of Faith will never fall. That is
my idea of what "faith" is.
What has been directly known by experience isn't faith but knowledge. I
didn't say I had faith in Jesus, I said I have the knowledge that both he
and his mother Mary are alive.
Thank you
Mombasha
.
|
|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: you have seen Jesus and Mary---Re: Dear Kate---Re: Hold on to |
17 Apr 2004 09:05:15 PM |
|
|
From: "Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net>
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christia
n.roman-catholic
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 21:37:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Dear Kate---Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re
:Buddha the Father of Christ
<mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:BCA748D8.47BDB%mombasha@nyc.rr.com...
From: (Kate )
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christ
ia
n.roman-catholic
Date: 17 Apr 2004 19:05:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the
Father
of Christ
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 21:56:16 GMT, <mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
From: "Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net>
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christ
ia
n.roman-catholic
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:37:59 -0400
Subject: Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:4081a171$0$15964$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:wUggc.59331$Lh2.51880@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:40819474$0$15967$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_aggc.57523$oj6.993@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
In case you missed this older post :
Although I have my own specific understanding of Jesus that won't
be
accepted by many fundamentalists, the most important understanding
of
Jesus
which I share with them is that he suffered and has entered into
*his
Father's glory* :
I accept that many people have a deep emotional relationship with the
concept of Jesus Christ and to them I say: Hold on to your faith just
as
hard as you can.
Faith is immoral. Faith is blinding yourself to what is really in
evidence in favor of what you want to be true. There is nothing to
admire in steadfast blind lying to oneself. Witness a president who
will not face reality, instead holding on with faith and steadfastness
to a imaginary scenario about what is really happening.
Dear Kate:
My point is that many theists have an extremely strong emotional
relationship with the concept of god, jesus, allah etc, such that trying
to
tell them that there is no god is like saying I'm going to cut off your
arm.
This clearly upsets theists and gets their backs up. Such people will
respect you (us) much more if we allow them (indeed tell them) to hold
onto their faith.
If, instead of battering them with "the support of your life is
meaningless," we rather encourage theists to hold onto their faith, when
they are ready, they will start asking questions and come towards us.
I have a slightly different take on what faith is:
Imagine a glass (or cup or ornate chalice) which is sitting on a podium
or
column or pedestal.
That is the Glass of Faith.
You (theists) must believe that The Glass of Faith will not fall if one
picks it up off the pedestal and lets it go.
However, one must never actually test The Glass of Faith. In fact to
even
suggest that The Glass of Faith be tested would be heretical.
One must simply believe that The Glass of Faith will never fall. That is
my idea of what "faith" is.
What has been directly known by experience isn't faith but knowledge. I
didn't say I had faith in Jesus, I said I have the knowledge that both he
and his mother Mary are alive.
I accept that you tell me the truth when you say you have seen Jesus and
Mary.
However, most people still have virtually no idea of the power of anxiety,
conditioning and repressed emotions to distort our preceptions and make us
see things that are not there.
I have seen and experienced things which, if I were religious and maybe
living in the Middle Ages, would make me believe that I had seen Mary or an
angel etc.
I wrote yesterday that humans are an intensely social species.
Based on my own experiences (I would like to see this proven under
replicable controlled circumstances), if humans have no contact with other
humans for three or more days, their minds start to deteriorate.
Think about how many religious episodes happen to people who went on long
journeys alone. I once had a tree "talk to me" when I had been alone in
the woods too long. I of course realized that it was in my own mind,
perhaps what some would call my own "Higher Power" inside myself.
The tree "said:" "We all love you." Just the support I needed being all
alone for days.
It was no accident that, in the movie where Tom Hanks is alone on an island
for four years, the script has him carve a "face" onto a coconut. Tom
Hanks treats the coconut as if it is a fellow human being.
So, to me, those who believe that they have seen Jesus, Mary etc are
simply saying they need (needed) the support of the concept of Jesus, Mary
etc.
I say to all such people, get your warmth love and support from your fellow
humans.
Mombasha
Thank you
Mombasha
.
|
|
|
| User: "Son of man" |
|
| Title: Re: you have seen Jesus and Mary---Re: Dear Kate---Re: Hold on toyour faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re :Buddha the Father of Christ |
17 Apr 2004 09:15:39 PM |
|
|
Why repeat yourself?
I already replied to exactly what you just posted again.
<mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:BCA75A9B.47C25%mombasha@nyc.rr.com...
From: "Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net>
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christ
ia
n.roman-catholic
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 21:37:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Dear Kate---Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum,
Re
:Buddha the Father of Christ
<mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:BCA748D8.47BDB%mombasha@nyc.rr.com...
From: (Kate )
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christ
ia
n.roman-catholic
Date: 17 Apr 2004 19:05:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Hold on to your faith---Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha
the
Father
of Christ
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 21:56:16 GMT, <mombasha@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
From: "Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net>
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Newsgroups:
alt.atheism,alt.recovery.religion,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christ
ia
n.roman-catholic
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:37:59 -0400
Subject: Re: For Sara Brum, Re : Buddha the Father of Christ
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:4081a171$0$15964$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:wUggc.59331$Lh2.51880@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
"Jez" <iced_spear@AwaySPAMdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:40819474$0$15967$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
"Son of man" <thepuppetmaster@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_aggc.57523$oj6.993@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
In case you missed this older post :
Although I have my own specific understanding of Jesus that
won't
be
accepted by many fundamentalists, the most important
understanding
of
Jesus
which I share with them is that he suffered and has entered into
*his
Father's glory* :
I accept that many people have a deep emotional relationship with the
concept of Jesus Christ and to them I say: Hold on to your faith
just
as
hard as you can.
Faith is immoral. Faith is blinding yourself to what is really in
evidence in favor of what you want to be true. There is nothing to
admire in steadfast blind lying to oneself. Witness a president who
will not face reality, instead holding on with faith and steadfastness
to a imaginary scenario about what is really happening.
Dear Kate:
My point is that many theists have an extremely strong emotional
relationship with the concept of god, jesus, allah etc, such that
trying
to
tell them that there is no god is like saying I'm going to cut off your
arm.
This clearly upsets theists and gets their backs up. Such people will
respect you (us) much more if we allow them (indeed tell them) to
hold
onto their faith.
If, instead of battering them with "the support of your life is
meaningless," we rather encourage theists to hold onto their faith,
when
they are ready, they will start asking questions and come towards us.
I have a slightly different take on what faith is:
Imagine a glass (or cup or ornate chalice) which is sitting on a
podium
or
column or pedestal.
That is the Glass of Faith.
You (theists) must believe that The Glass of Faith will not fall if
one
picks it up off the pedestal and lets it go.
However, one must never actually test The Glass of Faith. In fact to
even
suggest that The Glass of Faith be tested would be heretical.
One must simply believe that The Glass of Faith will never fall. That
is
my idea of what "faith" is.
What has been directly known by experience isn't faith but knowledge. I
didn't say I had faith in Jesus, I said I have the knowledge that both
he
and his mother Mary are alive.
I accept that you tell me the truth when you say you have seen Jesus and
Mary.
However, most people still have virtually no idea of the power of
anxiety,
conditioning and repressed emotions to distort our preceptions and make us
see things that are not there.
I have seen and experienced things which, if I were religious and maybe
living in the Middle Ages, would make me believe that I had seen Mary or
an
angel etc.
I wrote yesterday that humans are an intensely social species.
Based on my own experiences (I would like to see this proven under
replicable controlled circumstances), if humans have no contact with
other
humans for three or more days, their minds start to deteriorate.
Think about how many religious episodes happen to people who went on long
journeys alone. I once had a tree "talk to me" when I had been alone
in
the woods too long. I of course realized that it was in my own mind,
perhaps what some would call my own "Higher Power" inside myself.
The tree "said:" "We all love you." Just the support I needed being
all
alone for days.
It was no accident that, in the movie | | | | | | | | | | |
